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Blazde 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.16 05:04:00 - [1] ...are making me want to quit EVE I'm sure this has been discussed endlessly elsewhere but I will suggest some simple, easy to implement solutions. Right now there is a log-off pandemic in EVE and it needs to be stopped. a) Disconnecting before the PvP Log Off Timer activates If a player's ship is locked and/or fired on after they log off (while their ship is trying to emergency warp) the PvP timer needs to be activated. As it is now they disappear after 1 minute which is too quick to kill most ships, except in a gank situation. I know there are (weak) arguments for leaving it as it is, but EVE these days is much more stable, as are many people's internet connections. And if the PvP timer is activating anyway if they disconnect during combat, there's little reason it can't also activate if they happen to disconnect in the few seconds before combat begins. The only people really harmed are those with flaky internet connections that tend to sit around enemies for long periods of time, baiting them and looking for moments of opportunity. As one of those people myself, I'd much rather lose ships every time my router chokes than lose kills everytime a player I catch out decides he doesn't want to die. b) Jumping and the PvP Log Off Timer Jumping should not clear your PvP timer as it does now (actually I haven't personally checked this is the case recently, but I've been told it is and it was always silly). c) Simple tanking AI To ease the apparent pain of implementing the above two rules I also suggest a very simple tanking AI. If you're logged off, have lost more shield/armour than a full repair or boost cycle would give you, and would still have more than 25% capacitor charge if that repairer or booster was activated, then it can be automatically activated. Hardeners and damage controls can also be activated, to guard against those situations where you drop immediately after jumping or undocking and don't have a chance to activate them. This wouldn't give perfect tanking, but it would help those players that genuinely disconnect then relog back immediately. d) Emergency Warps Anyone that logs off then logs on again needs to warp back to the exact point they disconnected. As it is now they can simply relog off again immediately they see their hostiles are still in local, and their ship will do a 2nd emergency warp leaving them in a happy safespot if they choose to log on a 3rd time. Also there is no reason at all why emergency-warp back should put you 15km away from where you emergency warped from. (This is also a pain for legitimate disconnects because you sit on a gate, lag out a bit, emergency warp, then find yourself 10 or so km away from it) d) Warp Disrupt Probes People logging off in a warp disrupt probe's radius should not emergency warp out. The current situation is just crazy so this needs no explaining. e) Bans It needs to be made clear that logging off to save your ship is an exploit. GMs need to read petitions by players of people who log off, investigate the logs and flag players who appear to have logged off just to save their ship. Anyone repeatedly suspected of doing it to the point it can't be a coincidence needs to be slapped with a month or so ban. f) Differentiating Genuine Disconnects from Lame Disconnects It's been said before (in a devblog or somewhere) that there's no way to differentiate between someone closing the client and disconnecting, but anyone remotely familar with windows programming knows this isn't the case because cleanup code is executed. That code needs to start imforming the server when a player closes his client intentionally, and that information needs to be used to decide on which timers are activated and to assist in dishing out bans as above. Sure it won't stop people who pull their network cable out fom faking disconnects, but it will slow down the simpletons. _
Redart Amarr	Posted - 2006.10.16 05:11:00 - [2] Here's a better idea: You could make a forum thread about it, so the people who didn't know about it can start doing it. Oh Wait. Gorgeous Gamers
Blazde 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.16 05:19:00 - [3] Full disclosure helps gets things fixed. These problems have been around for a very long time now so I can only assume the people that need to know about them haven't had it spelled out concisely yet. I discovered a dev blog from July 2004 saying log offs were going to be clamped down on via the PvP log off timer, it's a shame that hasn't happened yet. And, the GMs apparently don't consider them exploits, so discussing here whether they should or should not be a feature of EVE should not be breaking any "don't talk about exploits" rule (which I fully approve of when the exploits in question are in the process of being fixed). _
Kendar Gallente 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.16 05:40:00 - [4] /me logs off forums so nobody can flame him ./signed
Hoshino Hitomi	Posted - 2006.10.16 05:45:00 - [5] Originally by: Blazde f) Differentiating Genuine Disconnects from Lame Disconnects It's been said before (in a devblog or somewhere) that there's no way to differentiate between someone closing the client and disconnecting, but anyone remotely familar with windows programming knows this isn't the case because cleanup code is executed. That code needs to start imforming the server when a player closes his client intentionally, and that information needs to be used to decide on which timers are activated and to assist in dishing out bans as above. Sure it won't stop people who pull their network cable out fom faking disconnects, but it will slow down the simpletons. Does this include alt-ctrl-del -> end process/end process tree? My knowledge of windows coding is somewhat lacking.
Blazde 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.16 06:30:00 - [6] Originally by: Hoshino Hitomi Does this include alt-ctrl-del -> end process/end process tree? My knowledge of windows coding is somewhat lacking. I believe not, tho my knowledge is not perfect. Still I'd feel happier if the exploiters had to take 4-5 seconds longer to open up task manager. Also, if you force-kill EVE there might be an added benefit of the TCP connection not being cleaned up so gracefully, meaning the server would have to wait the 15 seconds TCP timeout value (or whatever the EVE cluster sets it to) before deciding the player had really gone and emergency warping him. As it is now, closing EVE causes instant emergency warp which is not what happens if you lose your internet connection properly. Not sure on this tho. _
Reggie Stoneloader eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.16 07:31:00 - [7] There are a great many abuses of game mechanics that a lot of very successful players use to their benefit. For many people, playing a video game is as much about metagaming as gaming, and lag, logging on or off of the server and taking advantage of unfixed bugs and exploitable mechanics are weapons the same way heavy missiles or pulse lasers are to the rest of us. If CCP's going to come down on the exploits that eat your lunch, they've got to come down on all of them, and it's far easier to just wag their finger and say, "These practices are abhorrent," than to roll up their sleeves and start banning the pillars of the EvE community. Civis Ascendant Sum
Fearless Sheep	Posted - 2006.10.16 07:48:00 - [8] we might as well see "respawning in station when killed" practice like in WoW some time soon tbh logging off is one of most annoying things as there is NOTHING u can do against it (even dictor sphere is not helping ffs ) but seams like DEVs dont really care about it... Why u would need a jump clone w/o implants when u simply can log off when killed
Matonius2	Posted - 2006.10.16 08:48:00 - [9] Logging off as a means to escape is wrong and needs to be fixed. CCP I am counting on you to do something. Plz
Lomilitah 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.16 08:51:00 - [10] Originally by: Blazde Originally by: Hoshino Hitomi Does this include alt-ctrl-del -> end process/end process tree? My knowledge of windows coding is somewhat lacking. I believe not, tho my knowledge is not perfect. Still I'd feel happier if the exploiters had to take 4-5 seconds longer to open up task manager. Also, if you force-kill EVE there might be an added benefit of the TCP connection not being cleaned up so gracefully, meaning the server would have to wait the 15 seconds TCP timeout value (or whatever the EVE cluster sets it to) before deciding the player had really gone and emergency warping him. As it is now, closing EVE causes instant emergency warp which is not what happens if you lose your internet connection properly. Not sure on this tho. Sadly its kinda impossible to make it water proof. If a lamer wants to simulate a real connection problem he can just unplug his network cable or something like that. However only a few of the proposed solutions will help alot.
Nadar Minmatar hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.16 08:54:00 - [11] Completely agree with Blazde on this one. Nothing worse than a kid (yes, only kids run) who decides it has gotten too hot. My question to those kids logging off: Why,`o why, do you play this game if you can't accept the consequences of losing a battle? --- What I write are my own opinions and it does not reflect my corp or alliance's opinions, so kindly bugger off.
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.16 09:00:00 - [12] Originally by: Blazde d) Emergency Warps Anyone that logs off then logs on again needs to warp back to the exact point they disconnected. As it is now they can simply relog off again immediately they see their hostiles are still in local, and their ship will do a 2nd emergency warp leaving them in a happy safespot if they choose to log on a 3rd time. Also there is no reason at all why emergency-warp back should put you 15km away from where you emergency warped from. (This is also a pain for legitimate disconnects because you sit on a gate, lag out a bit, emergency warp, then find yourself 10 or so km away from it) The rest I don't PVP enough to comment on, but this gets a "Hell Yeah". My CEO lost his Sleipnir to a gate camp due to this...he ran the camp and made the gate, but then got disconnected. Logged back in to find himself 15km from the gate again, but with all the damage that the camp had done to him on the FIRST run. He didn't make it second time. CCP's response to the petition was the normal "our servers don't keep logs" yada yada... --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Vuk Lau 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.16 09:05:00 - [13] I am so annoyed with ppl logging (but anyway we killed like 80% of logged off ships) that i have habbit to camp that gate with dictor for more then 1 hour so I can catch the pod also (or survived ship) and in 50% suckers log in and get their express ticket to empire. I really cant understand that cause I think there is no pussiest thing in EVE. If u cant accept your loss go play WoW where you have ressurect button.
Stanis Gallente 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.16 09:47:00 - [14] What realy needs to be fixed is warping out of the interdictor sphear. Ppl know they can't get out of and that an only way to get out of it is loging. So they just do it. Go Blazde :).
Za Po Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.16 10:08:00 - [15] Originally by: Hoshino Hitomi Originally by: Blazde f) Differentiating Genuine Disconnects from Lame Disconnects It's been said before (in a devblog or somewhere) that there's no way to differentiate between someone closing the client and disconnecting, but anyone remotely familar with windows programming knows this isn't the case because cleanup code is executed. That code needs to start imforming the server when a player closes his client intentionally, and that information needs to be used to decide on which timers are activated and to assist in dishing out bans as above. Sure it won't stop people who pull their network cable out fom faking disconnects, but it will slow down the simpletons. Does this include alt-ctrl-del -> end process/end process tree? My knowledge of windows coding is somewhat lacking. It is possible to intercept that and perform cleanup. There are many ways to kill a process without letting it cleanup, but I can't think of any that uses the standard Windows tools. Cleanup would reduce the problem, at least until someone makes a tool to force quit without cleanup and makes it available.
Ellaine TashMurkon MetaForge Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.10.16 10:32:00 - [16] Perfect system, wuld be choosing one safe per system and ship automaticaly warping there when You logoff in space. Culd be friendly POS, or station (dock automaticaly). In empire, choose randoim NPC station. In 0.0 and empire stationless systems, warp to random deep safespot. Sit there. So if You know someone logged in system, You can probe and pop him, simply. Ship shuld Disapear on next downtime :) After loging back, ship shuld stay there - this helps against login traps.
ITTigerClawIK	Posted - 2006.10.16 10:54:00 - [17] hmmm i see an anoyed Pirate here... must be annoying for those who have a network problem and eve dissconnects them and then they have to go as quickly as they can to get back on to save there hsip
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.16 14:09:00 - [18] Originally by: ITTigerClawIK hmmm i see an anoyed Pirate here... must be annoying for those who have a network problem and eve dissconnects them and then they have to go as quickly as they can to get back on to save there hsip If you think that the only people who will get annoyed by this are pirates then you are extremely new to EVE or you have never left Empire. In any case, even if someone made a tool to force quit EVE with cleanup, very few people would have it. At worst a few alliances would spread it around. If CCP started enforcing log offs, it would become pretty clear who these people are anyway. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Ellaine TashMurkon MetaForge Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.10.16 14:32:00 - [19] Distingushing "reasons" behind disconnect is bad. It only leads to people pulling off their network cables or killing Eve process etc, to emulate unintentional disconnect. Just another metagame element. All ships, no matter what pilot did and why he disconnected, shuld use the same means of getting safe as an online pilot wuld be able to use. Thats all.
Xorce	Posted - 2006.10.16 14:38:00 - [20] Edited by: Xorce on 16/10/2006 14:38:11 /signed Blazde .. hate these lame tactics
Julius Gherhan Caldari 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.16 16:09:00 - [21] /signed Ruins my 2 hours of pvp per month :(
Dutarro Kydance Radiant Industries Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.16 16:14:00 - [22] Originally by: Ellaine TashMurkon Distingushing "reasons" behind disconnect is bad. It only leads to people pulling off their network cables or killing Eve process etc, to emulate unintentional disconnect. Just another metagame element. All ships, no matter what pilot did and why he disconnected, shuld use the same means of getting safe as an online pilot wuld be able to use. Thats all. I agree completely. The best solution to logoff exploits is for the logged-off ship to do something that the logged-on player could have done anyway.
Steel John Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.16 16:42:00 - [23] /signed... I hate it when some one is dead to right and just logs off. Then says Lost internet. It is time to stop givening them a free ride. Play the game and play right or go play WoW or one of the other games that will let you get away with doing this stuff.
Rippey Minmatar hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.16 16:45:00 - [24] Signed. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty - Cortes
Za Po Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.16 17:01:00 - [25] Originally by: Steel John /signed... I hate it when some one is dead to right and just logs off. Then says Lost internet. It is time to stop givening them a free ride. Play the game and play right or go play WoW or one of the other games that will let you get away with doing this stuff. I reckon the death penalty in WoW is so low that it's not even worth disconnecting to avoid it.
javer Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.16 17:46:00 - [26] well another nice thread to point out flawed game mechanics that has been broken for 1year+ now -------------------------------------------- Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their Level and beat you with experience.
ragewind Caldari VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.16 18:42:00 - [27] Originally by: Blazde I know there are (weak) arguments for leaving it as it is, but EVE these days is much more stable that is so funny, made my smile ------------------------------------ Dragon the patch to optimise EVE. Welcome to Tranquillity the optimised snail Please wait 4 minuets to jump war targets are 2 seconds away.
Theodwyn	Posted - 2006.10.16 22:25:00 - [28] Originally by: Za Po Originally by: Hoshino Hitomi Originally by: Blazde f) Differentiating Genuine Disconnects from Lame Disconnects It's been said before (in a devblog or somewhere) that there's no way to differentiate between someone closing the client and disconnecting, but anyone remotely familar with windows programming knows this isn't the case because cleanup code is executed. That code needs to start imforming the server when a player closes his client intentionally, and that information needs to be used to decide on which timers are activated and to assist in dishing out bans as above. Sure it won't stop people who pull their network cable out fom faking disconnects, but it will slow down the simpletons. Does this include alt-ctrl-del -> end process/end process tree? My knowledge of windows coding is somewhat lacking. It is possible to intercept that and perform cleanup. There are many ways to kill a process without letting it cleanup, but I can't think of any that uses the standard Windows tools. Cleanup would reduce the problem, at least until someone makes a tool to force quit without cleanup and makes it available. that is called on/off switch :) But the other points are signed
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.16 22:32:00 - [29] What I said about this before I'm not sure what I find more disturbing currently, the insane game mechanics that actually encourage it or the number of people who feel they have the right to take advantage of it. Raptor and Ares Fix
Nadar Minmatar hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.16 23:09:00 - [30] People who keep logging off in battle needs to ask themselves if they belong in a game like EVE at all. Lamers/pussies/chickens/whatever who can't accept the consequences of flying in low-sec/0.0 should go play WoW where PVP is a joke (like the off-loggers makes EVE, a joke). CCP, please, for the love of God and Mr T, please fix this crap. --- What I write are my own opinions and it does not reflect my corp or alliance's opinions, so kindly bugger off.
Thyre Gallente United Minerals Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.16 23:24:00 - [31] man, i didn't know there was such thing. i love it when pirates make mistakes by telling u how to get away. "Know where to find the information and how to use it - That's the secret of success!" -- Albert Einstein
deadmaus Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.17 02:37:00 - [32] Edited by: deadmaus on 17/10/2006 02:38:29 A well thought out and logical solution to this increasingly frustrating lamer tactic. CCP please fix this for the good of the game. BTTT PS MM are not pirates
Grammer	Posted - 2006.10.17 03:01:00 - [33] warp scam anyone?
Aquae Gallente Die Trying Kith of Venal	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:09:00 - [34] TO CCP: There are many reasons why Eve is a great game and why i still play it. To be honest it became a way of life for the last 2 year (loads of hours playing, spending time on your forum when i should be working ... :)) ) When i play , it is like reading a good book (EON) or watching a good movie , it does take me away ... until this guy just press escape to avoid loosing his ship and log off . this is so annoying and breaking the all spirit of the game. i'm sure, ways could be possible to avoid this . If this is part of the feature of the game, this might be the reason why i would stop the all experience. I don't thing people would like to see in the next Eve Trailer how fast you can logg off from the game to avoid problem I declare that i never used that "technic" to avoid being kill and you can probably verify that. Please fix this , and i strongly believe this should be part of your Priority.
Grytok	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:47:00 - [35] Edited by: Grytok on 17/10/2006 11:48:06 First to say, I did never log off so far, when I was in such a situation! In my understanding of a game, it is totally legal to CTRL+Q, even if it annoys the other players. By quitting the game (logging off) I decide not to play the game. And if I decide not to play, I should not get killed while not playing. Sure logging off is lame, but you can't force people to play the game, just to stay alive. Another problem would hit the shelves, when there is something changed to the current mechanics. There would be billions of petitions, because of lost ships during REAL disconnects. .
Drakona Malchon Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:55:00 - [36] I find it against the spirit of Eve, that this tactics can be used. Eve is the only MMRPG which has true PvP. This is why so many ppl still play it after 3 years. One day you can be top, the other day you are down. And this is not a pirate argument here! This is an argument of alliances/corps defending their space as well as alliances/corps attacking. It is the many vs one discussion. Usually if there is 1 vs many, the Group usually wins and should win! The "bug/feature" as discribed here is the "exploit" how the 1 player can win. I am sure it was never intended in that way, otherwise CCP wouldnt have included dictors, warpbubbles, even warpscramblers in this game. If you want the "I win button" go play WoW. Combat Op Director Free-Space-Ranger Corporate Homepage onlinegaming since 1998
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.17 16:00:00 - [37] As far as I know, if you have the target warp scrambled when he logs off, then the disconnect warp does NOT take place. Why aren't you scrambling your targets? If I'm missing something, just let me know... --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.18 05:01:00 - [38] Originally by: Grey Area As far as I know, if you have the target warp scrambled when he logs off, then the disconnect warp does NOT take place. Why aren't you scrambling your targets? If I'm missing something, just let me know... 2 issues: 1) Pilot is in a bubble which is supposed to prevent him from warping but allows him to warp if he logs off in the bubble. 2) If a pilot logs before he is warp scrambled then (I think) he will warp regardless of how many points you have on him. If you jump log, again I think this still works this way, you are immune to being scrambled on the other side. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Blazde 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.18 07:37:00 - [39] Originally by: Ellaine TashMurkon Distingushing "reasons" behind disconnect is bad. It only leads to people pulling off their network cables or killing Eve process etc, to emulate unintentional disconnect. Pulling their network cable out will drop all their other connections (MSN, downloads, other EVE clients etc..). Killing EVE quite often leads to corrupt settings and occasionally a totally broken EVE install. If the sploiters have to suffer that it's at least a little better than the current situation. Infact right now EVE does differentiate between closing EVE and losing connection. Those that close it will instantly log off. Those that lag out (and probably also those that CTD) will have to wait 15(?) seconds for the server to log them off. The main point of differentiating would be to give the GMs info about how a person disconnected. Then when an log off exploiter got banned, and complained that their router was dodgy or whatever the GMs would be able to check logs and be sure they were lying. There's no reason for players to know the differentiating is taking place, so most will continue to close EVE unknowingly feeding the GMs info that they're cheating. Originally by: Baun 2) If a pilot logs before he is warp scrambled then (I think) he will warp regardless of how many points you have on him. If you jump log, again I think this still works this way, you are immune to being scrambled on the other side. Not experienced this myself recently (cos I always bump em to make sure) but have seen people complaining about it. If it does work that way it's an extremely odd choice by CCP (or more likely a bug that needs investigating). But regardless of whether they emergency warp or not, they will disappear into thin air in 60 seconds. Then when they log on they will magically be 1 million km away. _
Ellaine TashMurkon MetaForge Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.10.18 09:22:00 - [40] Originally by: Blazde Originally by: Ellaine TashMurkon Distingushing "reasons" behind disconnect is bad. It only leads to people pulling off their network cables or killing Eve process etc, to emulate unintentional disconnect. Pulling their network cable out will drop all their other connections (MSN, downloads, other EVE clients etc..). Killing EVE quite often leads to corrupt settings and occasionally a totally broken EVE install. If the sploiters have to suffer that it's at least a little better than the current situation. None of above is a problem comparable to loosing a good BS (for most people) ;) Quote: Infact right now EVE does differentiate between closing EVE and losing connection. Those that close it will instantly log off. Those that lag out (and probably also those that CTD) will have to wait 15(?) seconds for the server to log them off. Thats not checking anything, thats the nature of technology (TCP socket timeout). Quote: The main point of differentiating would be to give the GMs info about how a person disconnected. Then when an log off exploiter got banned, and complained that their router was dodgy or whatever the GMs would be able to check logs and be sure they were lying. There's no reason for players to know the differentiating is taking place, so most will continue to close EVE unknowingly feeding the GMs info that they're cheating. As its considered cheating by players, its not a cheat in EULA terms and noone will get banned for that. Anyone, at any moment, can log off. 50 battleships incidentialy located at one gate can log off in one moment, and log back in when covop scout tells them about passing freighter, and by EULA its nothing wrong. Every single BS in a 100 BS fleet can instantly log off when locked and shot at log back in 1 minute, and by EULA its ok. Everyone can flee from interdictor and deplyable bubbles by logging off, and by EULA its ok. Finaly, every single miner and ratter can instantly log off when scouts report incoming ganksquad, and its perfectly right by EULA. GMs may collect statistics and be happy knowing who logs when, but it has and shuld have no consequences. CCP puts bans by strict, clearly defined rules, only when people are clearly proven guilty after checking logs and investigating. Thats why it takes so long to ban macrominers that some people think that macroers never get banned. In case of log (in/off) tricks, You can't define clear border between legal and illegal. I may log off becuase I have to sleep, with no conection to incoming hostile. I may go to safespot/POS and then logoff to do other things with my computer while waiting for hostiles to go away from systems I was mining or ratting. I may logoff immediately because RL needs immediate attention (soup is boiling, baby crying). In last case (wich happens 15 times a day in my case), I wuld sometimes stay AFK with no hostiles in system, but I sometimes hit Ctrl+Q if its hot (I'm killed while AFK 10 times more often then when I'm at keyboard anyway). The fact that I do not leave my ship to see myself in clone station next time I approach computer may be considered cheat by players, but its pretty legal by game rules. And since CCP cannot ban people for that, "equal rights" for people online and offlining wuld be perfect :)
Ascelot Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.18 20:06:00 - [41] Everyone seems to think that if people log during combat, their cheating. Originally by: Ellaine TashMurkon Perfect system, wuld be choosing one safe per system and ship automaticaly warping there when You logoff in space. Culd be friendly POS, or station (dock automaticaly). In empire, choose randoim NPC station. In 0.0 and empire stationless systems, warp to random deep safespot. Sit there. So if You know someone logged in system, You can probe and pop him, simply. Ship shuld Disapear on next downtime :) After loging back, ship shuld stay there - this helps against login traps. I dont like this idea though. Mean, say, 1 hour after dt, my power supply blows or any other hardware fault, or my isp servers crash's has maintenance etc, telephone maintenance, powercuts etc. Things like these do happen, sould they be penalised for this?
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.18 20:23:00 - [42] Originally by: Baun 2 issues: 1) Pilot is in a bubble which is supposed to prevent him from warping but allows him to warp if he logs off in the bubble. 2) If a pilot logs before he is warp scrambled then (I think) he will warp regardless of how many points you have on him. If you jump log, again I think this still works this way, you are immune to being scrambled on the other side. Don't PVP that much, if point 1 definitely works that way, it should be fixed...if you're unlucky enough to be in a warp bubble when your PSU blows up, it's just tough luck I'm afraid (life ain't fair) Can confirm that point 2 is simply JUNK however. I've lost connection during missions whilst under attack from NPC scramblers, and can confirm that they are quite capable of holding you. AFAIK, there is no difference between NPC scramblers and player scramblers. If you have a ship held and they have logged off, I am pretty sure their modules cease to function instantly. If you don't have the firepower to kill them in the THREE minutes oit takes them to disappear (claims that it is 60 seconds are again, simply wrong, my old corp did extensive testing) then that is YOUR tough luck in the same way that it is tough luck for the payer in the warp bubble. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Worms Corp	Posted - 2006.10.18 20:36:00 - [43] whos the more chicken? the person logging out or the lamer camping the stargate because its the minimal risk method of pvp.
Liru Okami	Posted - 2006.10.18 21:50:00 - [44] Edited by: Liru Okami on 18/10/2006 21:53:33 Edited by: Liru Okami on 18/10/2006 21:52:46 I dont see any problem with the log off/disconnect warping. It was put into the game to stop DOS attacks from alowing players to lag out a target and kill it with impunity. It shouldent be changed. Also it serves as way for people to avoid unwanted pvp. Of course that is going to bring a ralling cry about "carebares" not going into low security and all that tripe. but look at it this way, most people dont have an alt somewhere with billions of isk to buy them new ships and gear. everything that gets destroyed without reason costs people time and money to replace time that could have been otherwise spent enjoying the game is now spent fixing what some jack ass broke. Ive had way to many encounters with PVPers who abuse game mechanics to their advantage and i am not about to condone a post that takes away the one thing in favor of avoiding those people.
Mashie Saldana Hooligans Of War	Posted - 2006.10.18 23:58:00 - [45] Another fix would be to have ships and pods warp back to the identical location they left and not get a 15km safety zone. Someone who shall remain unnamed saved his pod yesterday by logging out and instantly log back in again just to land outside of scram range and happily warp off to safety...
Zoxia Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2006.10.19 00:12:00 - [46] If you are locked in combat there should be a 60 second timer before you are allowed to log. Also if you lose connection 60 seconds before you warp to this supposed safe spot. This is the biggest Exploit of all time and I am very suprised they have it here. easy fix and sounds like they are catering.
Ecnav Gallente hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.19 02:07:00 - [47] Edited by: Ecnav on 19/10/2006 02:09:09 __ _ __ _ __ _ __ _ __ _ __ _ __ _ __ _ __ _ __ I don't have a sig
Ecnav Gallente hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.19 02:08:00 - [48] Edited by: Ecnav on 19/10/2006 02:09:54 Originally by: Thyre man, i didn't know there was such thing. i love it when pirates make mistakes by telling u how to get away. Hey, we're not pirates And I hate it when people do this as well, its cheap. __ _ __ _ __ _ __ _ __ _ __ _ __ _ __ _ __ _ __ I don't have a sig
Liru Okami	Posted - 2006.10.19 02:40:00 - [49] You may not be a pirate but the only people who realy care about log warps are. Yes i am well aware that a pirate is just as likely to use this tatic as a "green" player. and it has more to do with the integrity of the people involved. But i'll tell you right now that if my apoc jumps into some system and gets tackled and scrambled with no cause by a bunch of tallentless gate campers i am going to turn on my tank and flick the off switch on my router and pray for the best. A chance at survival is better than no chance of escape or fighting back at all. Originally by: Ecnav Hey, we're not pirates And I hate it when people do this as well, its cheap.
Awox Minmatar Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains	Posted - 2006.10.19 04:31:00 - [50] People who say something about CCP only caring about pirates should read this thread and every other thread about this stupid problem. CCP are selling this game, so they want to make the majority of subscribers happy. Fix logoff exploit hurts casual gamers the most, because they're usually the ones who play the PvE side exclusively, that or carebear alts. Rarely have I seen a competant PvP pilot log off cloaked at a gate. It's usually unescorted hauling ships moving stuff or unescorted solo-NPC-pwnmobile battleships, but sometimes it's a PvP pilot not confident in his ability to run the blocade or a PvP pilot who logged on and was forced to travel without fleet escort. The guys who run around unescorted, funnily enough, make up for the majority of EVE. Few carebears I see have scout alts in frigates to check for gate camps, so they just go willy nilly into camps and log off for the day if things are too hot for them! If these people can no longer fly around invulnerable to bubbles because of logoffski, invulnerable to single tacklers because of heavy nos + racks of stabs + cloak.. why would they continue playing? They wouldn't. They'd leave. - Logoffski Name & SHAME
Ellaine TashMurkon MetaForge Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.10.19 08:27:00 - [51] Originally by: Ascelot So if You know someone logged in system, You can probe and pop him, simply. Ship shuld Disapear on next downtime :) After loging back, ship shuld stay there - this helps against login traps. I dont like this idea though. Mean, say, 1 hour after dt, my power supply blows or any other hardware fault, or my isp servers crash's has maintenance etc, telephone maintenance, powercuts etc. Things like these do happen, sould they be penalised for this? Penalised? Your ship does the best thing to survive in given moment. Simply, not outside game physics.
Zoxia Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2006.10.19 09:39:00 - [52] whats needed is a solution thats is fair to both sides with something like this. For the most part a player whos power or what ever blinks off would not die in less than a minute. If you are in COMBAT ( any combat )and you unplug you should have a timer. Sure there may be a few times here and there where some people may get blown up before 60 seconds. But I think more than not it wont happen. Letting an Exploit like this exist believe or not does turn off some good PvP players to this game as well as honest players. And no they wont lose a bunch of players because they fixed a cheat. If anything theyd gain more players because they had the nads to fix an exploit to one of the important aspects of this game PvP.
Ellaine TashMurkon MetaForge Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:27:00 - [53] Originally by: Awox It's usually unescorted hauling ships moving stuff or unescorted solo-NPC-pwnmobile battleships, but sometimes it's a PvP pilot not confident in his ability to run the blocade or a PvP pilot who logged on and was forced to travel without fleet escort. If these people can no longer fly around invulnerable to bubbles because of logoffski, invulnerable to single tacklers because of heavy nos + racks of stabs + cloak.. why would they continue playing? They wouldn't. They'd leave. People run unescorted because its easier. Instead of waiting months for my corpmates to gather escort for my hauler, I culd just risk and run unescorted - thats tactical choice of having things done faster for price of bigger risk. Fitting ship for better survivability versus single tackler is a tactical choice again and its offtopic too. Logging off in bubble is using bug, wich hopefully will be removed. But I dont think people wuld leave if unable to do that.
Ansuru Starlancer The Phoenix Rising Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:36:00 - [54] Originally by: Hoshino Hitomi Originally by: Blazde f) Differentiating Genuine Disconnects from Lame Disconnects It's been said before (in a devblog or somewhere) that there's no way to differentiate between someone closing the client and disconnecting, but anyone remotely familar with windows programming knows this isn't the case because cleanup code is executed. That code needs to start imforming the server when a player closes his client intentionally, and that information needs to be used to decide on which timers are activated and to assist in dishing out bans as above. Sure it won't stop people who pull their network cable out fom faking disconnects, but it will slow down the simpletons. Does this include alt-ctrl-del -> end process/end process tree? My knowledge of windows coding is somewhat lacking. There isn't a way to tell the difference between power going out in your neighborhood and you pulling the network cable out of your box ;)
Ellaine TashMurkon MetaForge Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:58:00 - [55] Besides, theres no way to tell if someone didnt just need to go away. I quit game or go afk when baby wakes and cries, wich happens 2 to 20 times in my avarage few hour gaming session. If tons of sudden quits (many in hot situations, because I try and try again to get some tiny kills) wuld classify me for ban for chating, I wuld go play diffrent MMORPG simply (or even do something productive!).
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.19 14:25:00 - [56] Originally by: Ellaine TashMurkon Besides, theres no way to tell if someone didnt just need to go away. I quit game or go afk when baby wakes and cries, wich happens 2 to 20 times in my avarage few hour gaming session. If tons of sudden quits (many in hot situations, because I try and try again to get some tiny kills) wuld classify me for ban for chating, I wuld go play diffrent MMORPG simply (or even do something productive!). Shouldnt get you banned, should have a good chance of getting you killed, nothing more. Longer timers overall and login-reactivation delays need to go in. Old blog
Master OlavPancrazio Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.19 19:46:00 - [57] At least twice a day I'll catch an iteron-mark v or something of that nature in a interdicter bubble as it jumps in from a gate. Twice a day the caught hauler will simply log to save his ship. As it is now, it's not an exploit, and there isn't anything I can do about it. It's fairly annoying.
Zoxia Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2006.10.20 02:25:00 - [58] In truth?? yes its an exploit of the games mechanics. Its basically no different than duping an item because most of the time the said ship would be destroyed. But :) its nice to know that you can simply UNPLUG when you dont want to lose your 300 + million dollar ship and the billion or so in goods inside.
Kalamurii Izanthor Soldiers Of Darkness Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.20 03:25:00 - [59] You nknow who would be SCREWED the most if these fixes were implemented? BURN EDEN Thye use all of those exploits on an alliance wide scale.
Ellaine TashMurkon MetaForge Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:01:00 - [60] Originally by: Rod Blaine Originally by: Ellaine TashMurkon Besides, theres no way to tell if someone didnt just need to go away. I quit game or go afk when baby wakes and cries, wich happens 2 to 20 times in my avarage few hour gaming session. If tons of sudden quits (many in hot situations, because I try and try again to get some tiny kills) wuld classify me for ban for chating, I wuld go play diffrent MMORPG simply (or even do something productive!). Shouldnt get you banned, should have a good chance of getting you killed, nothing more. Longer timers overall and login-reactivation delays need to go in.
Shin Ra BURN EDEN	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:42:00 - [61] Originally by: Kalamurii Izanthor You nknow who would be SCREWED the most if these fixes were implemented? BURN EDEN Thye use all of those exploits on an alliance wide scale. When have you ever seen a BE member log off in the middle of combat or when jumping into a gate camp? It happens a lot, but its our targets doing it. I have no idea where you get these crazy ideas from. I shall remind you, logging off in a safe spot, while unagressed, while blobbed is not an exploit, nor is it even lame.
Lord Severenth Caldari J.H.E.N.R Pure.	Posted - 2006.10.20 15:44:00 - [62] SUGGESTION TO CCP To assist in tracking the nubs of the game, indeed note each time sum1 logs. For everyone else, it can be tracked and dealt with. If a person QUITS, there IP will still be visable, and CCP servers will have it logged on, all they gotta do is ping it 5-15-25-35-45 seconds later, if it responds each time, its a very suspicios log out if complained about IF its a droppped connection, IP wont respond at all If ip keeps responding, leave the ship there for 30 seconds, maybe the player might learn to stay and fight If its dropped, ship emergancy warps Its not a perfect solution, but if implamented, could help plenty -------------------------------------------------- Have you ever been to Uranus ?
Morris Falter 133rd Ghost Wing	Posted - 2006.10.21 01:35:00 - [63] Deeply deeply annoying. You track them down, you set up the trap - they jump into you, and they log. They then log back in and log again to get a perfect safespot 2m KM from gate. Eve should reward teamplay, not penalise it. Fix the bubbles now. As an example - we were just camping in two targets (typhoon and hawk). To protect their identity lets call the alliance Ascendant Frontier. The hawk jumps into us and logs out when he is in bubble. The typhoon remains docked. I however CTD for unknown reasons and become trapped in bubble. The hawks jumps clean to a ss. This makes no sense to me at all... I will do some tests to find out exact circumstances under which logged off players can be scrambled and post here. 133rd Ghost Wing is recruiting...
Evelgrivion Cohort. Storm Armada	Posted - 2006.10.21 02:45:00 - [64] Edited by: Evelgrivion on 21/10/2006 02:45:58 Have we gone back in time!? »\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/ Its Cohort. with a C.
Blazde 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.21 15:16:00 - [65] Originally by: Grey Area If you don't have the firepower to kill them in the THREE minutes oit takes them to disappear (claims that it is 60 seconds are again, simply wrong, my old corp did extensive testing) then that is YOUR tough luck in the same way that it is tough luck for the payer in the warp bubble. I can assure you I've experienced the 60 second timer multiple times in the last week and it isn't long enough to kill a battleship in most cases. If it were 3 minutes I probably would never have started this thread. 3 minutes may be some PvE timer, I don't know. But when someone jumps through a gate, you follow, they decloak in range, you scramble, you lick your lips at the inevitable kill, you glance at local and see them not there, and 60 seconds later their ship nearly into hull damage poofs into thin air it just makes you want to quit EVE. This isn't about piracy at all, this about alliances or other groups of players being able to excersise some limited control over their space. As it is right now anyone with a small amount of knowledge about logging off can go anywhere in EVE and farm their ass off, on their own, without dying. Then they can move around unscouted and still not die so long as they remember where the quit button is and turn to it in times of panic. All the hordes of fighters trying to protect their space, which they've conquered and protected with huge amounts of expensive capital fleet and infrastructure, can't do a thing about it. EVE is a MULTIPLAYER game and this kind of solo play that shuns any form of contact with other players that might be hostile, while still enjoying all the fruits of 'unsecure' space just makes a mockery of the game mechanics. Originally by: "Awox" People who say something about CCP only caring about pirates should read this thread and every other thread about this stupid problem. CCP are selling this game, so they want to make the majority of subscribers happy. I'm sure this next may be controversial, but EVE needs the kinds of hardcore players that put the effort in to building 0.0 alliances and trying to defend space much more than it needs the weekend carebear 'cheats'. Sure we both pay the same subscription, but the alliances add so much variation, spice and backstory to the game. I'm sure I wasn't alone in pushing the subscribe button the first time I saw the EVE political map (rather than when I realised I could exploit logging off to stop me dying). Fix it so you can't log off and save your ship in tight spots and 2,000 carebears may quit. Don't fix it and watch 1,000 dedicated alliance builders realise it's futile to try to carve out a niche in 0.0 and quit the game. EVE would be much worse off in the second case, even though CCP's revenue in the short term would be better in the first case. Fortunately I have faith in CCP creating an honest game where you don't get something for nothing. In the past they haven't always simply gone for the option that will keep the most subscribers happy. As a result they have a smaller but much more passionate subscriberbase than many online mulitplayers. I'm sure if this was any other game I wouldn't even have bothered starting this thread, I'd simply have moved on to this month's new mmorpg. _
Liru Okami	Posted - 2006.10.22 13:36:00 - [66] "Kobayashi Maru" The no win situation, No one likes it but here it is in eve. If you cant warp or fight back your just going to die and loose millions possibly billions of isk and days perhapse even months of time taken to make that money. Lets face it most players cant get escorts, and even still paying them to follow around your hauler for 20 jumps is not a fun way to spend an afternoon. So there forced to do it alone. Secondly ships fitted for PVE and PVP are vastly different even the skills employed are on different paths than each other. Without a PvP loaded ship you cant expect to even scratch a prepared ambush. I would gather that most log warps are done to compleatly avoid PvP all togeather as opposed to a result of loseing an engaugement they got themselves into. If you want to quit eve because theres a way for people make you stop screwing with them be my guest. In every single MMO I have seen (since the dawn of UO) has had more casual players that don't pvp than the latter. When there are too many of the "PK" type in a game it simply fails no one wants to play for days on end to have a random jerk take it all away with no provocation.
Ruze No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.22 14:21:00 - [67] I want to state, from the beginning, that I don't condone log-offs, have never done it, and wouldn't be in a corporation with someone who did do it. While I don't like piracy, or any player who would willingly make another player his 'game' without provocation, I understand how it is played in Eve. I chuckle to myself as I watch these forum posts, at least five a day in different boards, all complaining about how there's no activity in low-sec, how CCP needs to change the rules to make players come into dangerous space, to force NPC corp players to face them. One idea after another, and I'm highlighting the ones that SPECIFICALLY STATE THEY ARE FOR PIRACY, not the ones that have a good idea that just-so-happens to also help piracy. No, it's pirates complaining about not enough fresh meat. I'm actually trying to become part of a group that's sole purpose is to TEACH new players about such things. Teach you how to run a gate camp, how to avoid low-sec space, how to stay out of a pirates hands. For everyone else, I simply tell them ... don't go into low-sec if you don't want to die. I hope that log-offs are fixed, so that they can no longer be used as an exploit. In the same breath, I hope that local is fixed so that it does not show everyone in system, only those who speak. I hope insta's are fixed so that EVERY player can only warp 5km from a gate, no closer. I hope jumping into a system is fixed so that pirates don't simply have to watch for the gate to activate, but have a much harder time pinning them down. More importantly to me, I hope that piracy becomes a almost permanent mark on your record. Just like in real life, if you partake in attacking an innocent player, even once, for ANY REASON, be it stealing/killing/scrambling, you are marked as a criminal against Concord and the game itself. Once a criminal, always a criminal. Make it so that being a criminal has actual penalties. If your caught in the act, you can be IMPRISONED by Concord, not just destroyed. Empires fire on you at will. You become hunted, chased out and sought after by NCP's and players. You become a target for anyone. Oh, that's right. I don't support gaining sec by killing rats. Want security status? Do missions for Concord. And if you have a criminal record, that security status can NEVER go above .1 ... Just my off-topic opinion ... Fixing POS's By Introducing Colonization
Void wolf	Posted - 2006.10.22 14:24:00 - [68] Has anyone tried to use a there scaner after you attack some one and they log off? You might just see there ships still is the system and about 1-2ua a way from were there logged off, but you can't see them in local. Now get a probe lancher and probs(thats if you got the skill to use them) scan, then jump to ship and get friends to follow U. The ship is helpless and can't fight back, when they log back in there ship is gone thinking they have saved it PS: you have to make sure you aggro then first or you can jump to there ship with scans.
Al At'ar	Posted - 2006.10.26 01:07:00 - [69] This is the big one everyone talks about in Corp. A main reason we don't do PvP. We see this as cheating, plain and simple. The easiest solution is to just delete the Emergency Warp routine and let the logged off player float in space as a target right where the lost connection happened. Once it is known that you go dead in space the practice will stop.
Kalamurii Izanthor Soldiers Of Darkness Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.02 16:10:00 - [70] HAH to that burn eden guy. You wanna know if i seen your guys use these exploit? Ill tell you. I saw an entire fleet of your in IAC space have an interdictor sphere dropped on it and our fleet, larger warp in on top of you, and what did your entire fleet do?? THEY ALL LOGGED OFF!!!
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.12.02 18:18:00 - [71] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 02/12/2006 18:19:10 All that neeeds to happen is warp scrambled IN PvP == NOT warping off. Period. Online or off, bubble or scrambler. PvE, the current system is fine. //Maya
Avera Mikou	Posted - 2006.12.02 20:35:00 - [72] Judging by the general mentality of this thread I will probably get insulted just for speaking up, but I think it would be appropriate for the discussion to have some opinions from people on the other side, so I will take that risk to my own reputation for the sake of the discussion. First of all I am a new player, and was recruited in my first few days into a low-sec corp and was mostly flying solo. I had been asking questions on the rookie channels and was told that logging off would warp my ship in a random direction. Honestly I don't see why that would be such an exploit because it is not much different from warping to a safe spot you have set up or even to another stargate. Anyway, I was trying to be friendly and initiate a conversation with someone I thought to be mining asteroids and all of a sudden he started attacking me, a lowly newb frigate, in his high powered gallente cruiser. I didn't have the reflexes or knowledge of other ships to fight or flight in pvp and my instinctive reaction was to log out. I logged back in 10 seconds later and I was floating in a pod. What have I learned? Logging is not a viable recourse for escape as is.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.12.02 20:47:00 - [73] Avera Mikou, because it can happen when you're warp scrambled or in a bubble. In higher end PvP, it is indeed an issue. And yes, there are lots of pirates out there - make sure you have people with -5 and below security status clearly flagged on your scanner so you can avoid them for now. //Maya
Avera Mikou	Posted - 2006.12.02 21:03:00 - [74] If it really is the case that it will warp you when your ship is supposed to be incapable of warping, then that's a bug that ccp should fix, but you can't blame players for using what's available in the game -- if they didn't, they would just be giving themselves an unfair disadvantage compared to players that took full advantage of what the game offered.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.12.02 21:28:00 - [75] Precisely why I call for that being fixed and refuse to play the name calling game. //Maya
Tarron Sarek Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.03 02:54:00 - [76] Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 02/12/2006 18:19:10 All that neeeds to happen is warp scrambled IN PvP == NOT warping off. Period. Online or off, bubble or scrambler. PvE, the current system is fine. For once, I totally agree with Maya. Additionally I'd suggest a 3 min (maybe more) logoff timer for 0.0. ________________________ - Posting on forums is more arduous than sign language is for a blind man -

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