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Elgar1 Lightfoot Industries	Posted - 2006.10.16 19:09:00 - [31] It's an interesting topic, however the EULA states that CCP own ALL of the items in EVE. We own nothing but the right to access their servers when they allow us. The only thing the Tax man could possibly tax is the income anyone has from selling virtual items. The legality of selling virtual items doesn't come into it. They can tax prostitutes, even in countries where the profession is illegal.
emepror Gallente Flying Spaghetti Monsterz Serenus Letum	Posted - 2006.10.16 19:28:00 - [32] your already being taxed through the corperate tax the station mineral tax and alliance taxes
Magunus The Forsakened Few The ARR0W Project	Posted - 2006.10.16 19:28:00 - [33] Originally by: Ghoest <snip> (And yes in a jury trial anything is possible, but remember just because a jury let OJ commit murder that doesnt make murder illegal.) Correct! Murder is illegal for entirely different reasons! Soz, couldn't resist that one. --- In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, 'The Restaurant at the End of the Universe'
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Worms Corp	Posted - 2006.10.16 19:41:00 - [34] heh if they ever tried to tax my MMO stuff then i would write my mage in WoW off as a dependant(needs food and water in that virtual world). and write my raven, Ferox, shuttles(all 50 of them), Kestrel, Caracal, badgers, sigils omens off as company cars. oh and write off my ammo expenses too.
Miss Overlord Gallente EUROPEANS	Posted - 2006.10.16 19:47:00 - [35] Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker heh if they ever tried to tax my MMO stuff then i would write my mage in WoW off as a dependant(needs food and water in that virtual world). and write my raven, Ferox, shuttles(all 50 of them), Kestrel, Caracal, badgers, sigils omens off as company cars. oh and write off my ammo expenses too. thats just so wrong
Locke DieDrake Human Information Virus	Posted - 2006.10.16 19:49:00 - [36] Originally by: Ghoest Originally by: Locke DieDrake Originally by: Ghoest In a game like WOW all the tie ins to real world economys are illegal. If you make real profit you have to report it, but you cant be changed for items in game because technically you dont own them. When you ebay gold from WOW the money you make is technically pofit from fraud. They are not illegal. They are violations of the EULA which has been variously charciterized as uneforceable and a guidline, not a contract. Meaning, under the law, nothing is illegal about selling in game currencies. Even in games where it is against the rules. The issue here is that they aren't going to just up and tax you on what you have in online games. They are first going to legally redifine who owns what. And that is going to single handedly shut down the MMO worlds. Because as soon as CCP is legally liable for your "property" loss, this game can't be sustained. No they are illegal if the service provider says they are. All transactions take place in part on the the server which is owned/opperated by the game company. They are allowed to dictate what happend on their server. If it was as you said the game operaters would not be allowed to ban accounts and "seize" assets in the account for breaking the EULA. Incorrect. The service provide doesn't decide what is illegal and what isn't. Period. The LAW does. Which means lawyers, courts and parliment/lobbyists. The service provider can decide what is AGAINST THE RULES. But being against the rules is not the same as being against the law. You are foolish if you believe otherwise. The reason they can ban you, is because you have agreed to a contract to follow the rules they set out. If you break the rules, you can be barred from using the service. There is no LAW that makes rule breaking a crime. Simply there is a law that says if you sign/agree to a contract, you are bound by it. In that contract, CCP's only action is to ban/temp ban people. No one to date has ever been PROSECUTED for RMT or other rule violations in a game. Saying the rules of the game are laws is like saying that cheating at candy land is a felony. It's assinine. It may be you just don't have any real world experiance, or it may be you are just ignorant. Thats fine, but get educated before you start spouting non-sense. RULE /=/ LAW. ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
Sanctus Maleficus Oberon Incorporated Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.10.16 19:51:00 - [37] This doesn't suprise me. The US Goverment's tax collection is extremely shady. The income tax itself is actually illegal (http://www.originalintent.org/edu/fedincometax.php). Not much you can do about it though, since the IRS will strongarm you into paying. But hey, whatever. ;)
Miss Overlord Gallente EUROPEANS	Posted - 2006.10.16 19:51:00 - [38] the IRS are youre friend
Locke DieDrake Human Information Virus	Posted - 2006.10.16 19:54:00 - [39] Originally by: Ghoest If an MMO provider took away some kids items that he bought on EBAY his parents could not sue the company and win. They could could sue the seller for fraud though and probably win(assumming they could actually find the seller.) I use the example of a kid becuase it gives an avenue for the buy to avoid blame. (And yes in a jury trial anything is possible, but remember just because a jury let OJ commit murder that doesnt make murder illegal.) You can argue the semantics of "legal" all you want. But in practice it would be fraud and thus illigal by the standards that matter most. Again you misunderstand the law. You can't sue a drug dealer for selling you fake dope. Because the deal in the first place was on it's face illegal/fraudulent, and if you didn't know that, you should have. Same applies to RMT transactions, while they aren't strictly illegal, they are TOS violations and any participation in them makes all praties culpable. Which also means that no party has any legal recourse. In addition to the fact that if the seller delivered what he said he would, and CCP later took it away, there was no fraud. Go to ebay and look at any EVE auction, note the disclaimer : This auction is for the TIME it took to acquire these in game items, all items are property of CCP. Which means that in addition to the fact that you have no legal basis to sue in the first place because you knew you were breaking the rules, there was no fraud because the seller clearly states no ownership. ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
Ghoest	Posted - 2006.10.16 20:01:00 - [40] Edited by: Ghoest on 16/10/2006 20:04:17 As I explained and you keep dodging the rules and control of the server create defacto ownership. Once ownership is established we have plenty of existing laws to govern it, unless they write a new more specific law to superceded the existing laws. Eulas may not be legally binding as contracts. But ownership is clearly defined in this case none the less. You seem to have confused the insubstancial nature of Eulas with the server owners ability to claim his property. My previous example clearly show who has ownerships(the server operator) in as long they dont dont specificaly give it away, in which case it could be argued. EDIT: I dont misunderstand the law. Your analogy was pathetic. A better analogy would be trying to sell the engine parts from a car you have rented. Its fraud because you dont own them. Wherever you went - here you are.
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.10.16 20:06:00 - [41] Originally by: Ghoest You can argue the semantics of "legal" all you want. But in practice it would be fraud and thus illigal by the standards that matter most. So how many people went to prison for ebay-ing or got sued for fraud? Repeat with me: Companies dont make laws. it doesnt matter what CCP says. What kind of blinded fanboi puts a EULA over the law (that is passed by elected representatives of the people!). Well politicians are sleezy and incompetent, but at least they are elected and somewhat responsible. Corporate Trash however, is not (not that im saying CCP falls in that category). It DOESNT matter what CCP says. What matters is what judges say. And so far, there is no court decision pointing in the direction in any country with western (roman) law system. Please dont counter this argument with the EULA. either give court decisions, or at least pending law suits. No, Black snow doesnt count (BS sued mythic, not the other way around), neither does anything with hacking in it.
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2006.10.16 20:18:00 - [42] Originally by: Locke DieDrake The reason they can ban you, is because you have agreed to a contract to follow the rules they set out. If you break the rules, you can be barred from using the service. There is no LAW that makes rule breaking a crime. I'm pretty sure you'd stand a good chance with the computer misuse laws most countries have these days. They generally make unathorized access to, or use of, a computer system a specific crime. The Service Provider decides who is allowed to access their system, and what conditions that access must abide by. If someone does not abide by those rules, then they are accessing and using the system in an unauthorized manner. The main reason MMO companies settle for a ban rather than use this, is because it's not worth the court fees or bad press over your average misbehaving player. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Detavi Kade	Posted - 2006.10.16 20:19:00 - [43] Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker heh if they ever tried to tax my MMO stuff then i would write my mage in WoW off as a dependant(needs food and water in that virtual world). and write my raven, Ferox, shuttles(all 50 of them), Kestrel, Caracal, badgers, sigils omens off as company cars. oh and write off my ammo expenses too. This made me chuckle.
Locke DieDrake Human Information Virus	Posted - 2006.10.16 20:34:00 - [44] Originally by: Ghoest Edited by: Ghoest on 16/10/2006 20:04:17 As I explained and you keep dodging the rules and control of the server create defacto ownership. Once ownership is established we have plenty of existing laws to govern it, unless they write a new more specific law to superceded the existing laws. Eulas may not be legally binding as contracts. But ownership is clearly defined in this case none the less. You seem to have confused the insubstancial nature of Eulas with the server owners ability to claim his property. My previous example clearly show who has ownerships(the server operator) in as long they dont dont specificaly give it away, in which case it could be argued. EDIT: I dont misunderstand the law. Your analogy was pathetic. A better analogy would be trying to sell the engine parts from a car you have rented. Its fraud because you dont own them. Still not getting it. While CCP clearly owns the "property", you aren't buying property when you buy isk or ships. You are paying for time to acquire that property. Quote: Disclaimer: All characters, items and ISK in Eve Online are the sole property of CCP, Simon and Schuster a Viacom company. This auction is NOT for the ownership of their intellectual property but it is merely for the time I spent acquiring the ISK or items and getting them to you. By bidding on this auction you are stating that you are in NO way affiliated with CCP, Simon and Schuster or a Viacom affiliated company. Eve Online is a trademark of CCP, Simon and Schuster interactive a division of Simon and Schuster the publishing operation of Viacom Inc. Taken from ebay isk seller. There is no fraud taking place. Get a clue. ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
Locke DieDrake Human Information Virus	Posted - 2006.10.16 20:37:00 - [45] Originally by: Matthew Originally by: Locke DieDrake The reason they can ban you, is because you have agreed to a contract to follow the rules they set out. If you break the rules, you can be barred from using the service. There is no LAW that makes rule breaking a crime. I'm pretty sure you'd stand a good chance with the computer misuse laws most countries have these days. They generally make unathorized access to, or use of, a computer system a specific crime. The Service Provider decides who is allowed to access their system, and what conditions that access must abide by. If someone does not abide by those rules, then they are accessing and using the system in an unauthorized manner. The main reason MMO companies settle for a ban rather than use this, is because it's not worth the court fees or bad press over your average misbehaving player. That would normally only apply if you had already been banned and then hacked your way back in thru illicit means. Look it up. ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2006.10.16 20:39:00 - [46] Originally by: Argenton Sayvers Classical Ownership doesnt really apply, since you are not selling CCP property. You dont sell the servers. Googlemail doesnt own the rights to the book i wrote, just because i sent it to a friend for a preview, thus it ending up saved on their servers. Even if they claim so in the EULA. They may not own the rights to the work, but they do have the right to dictate when and how you can store and retrieve it from their server. You wouldn't be authorized to access the copy stored as an attachment in your friend's inbox, for example, even though you have the copyright on the book. Googlemail would be quite within their rights to say that you cannot sell for money the copy of your book hosted on their server. They couldn't stop you selling the book, but they can stop you using their server to do it. Eve could use a similar argument. You can sell all you like, but if you access CCP's servers to transfer or recieve sold items, then that is an unauthorized use and thus illegal under the computer misuse act. You could always try providing the items as out-of-game data, but it wouldn't be of any use, and CCP will hold the copyright to all in-game code etc, so you'd fall foul of that. It's the same as a book in that respect. When you buy a book, you buy the right to have a copy of that information, as it appears in the book. You don't have the right to copy, transfer or modify the contents of that book into other forms though. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2006.10.16 20:41:00 - [47] Originally by: Locke DieDrake That would normally only apply if you had already been banned and then hacked your way back in thru illicit means. Look it up. Actually, I have. There's plenty of case law of people being convicted for using systems they had been given access to in a way that they were not authorized to do so. There's actually a disturbing number of cases involving misuse of the police national computer. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2006.10.16 20:43:00 - [48] Originally by: Locke DieDrake Still not getting it. While CCP clearly owns the "property", you aren't buying property when you buy isk or ships. You are paying for time to acquire that property. So by the same argument, if I buy a pirated CD, it's ok because I'm paying for the time taken to burn it, not the CD itself. Plenty of case law against that one. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Locke DieDrake Human Information Virus	Posted - 2006.10.16 20:46:00 - [49] Originally by: Matthew Originally by: Locke DieDrake That would normally only apply if you had already been banned and then hacked your way back in thru illicit means. Look it up. Actually, I have. There's plenty of case law of people being convicted for using systems they had been given access to in a way that they were not authorized to do so. There's actually a disturbing number of cases involving misuse of the police national computer. Point being, CCP can't use the law against you if you are using your account login. Even if you break the eula while doing it. Your actions in the virtual world do not consititute any crime in the real world, because (currently) the virtual world has no real wolrd relationship. The only way the computer misuse laws can be used is if you make a tangible effect on the real world. Information is tangible in legal terms. Virtual property is not. (yet) ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.10.16 20:47:00 - [50] This is scarey only because the people they want to tax do not live in the USA thus they will never pay it. AKA almsot all farmers who sell virtual money live in 3rd world countries. I not sure they can figure out a way to tax it, and there also is a large hurdle that alot of the players are what under 16?
Locke DieDrake Human Information Virus	Posted - 2006.10.16 20:49:00 - [51] Originally by: Matthew It's the same as a book in that respect. When you buy a book, you buy the right to have a copy of that information, as it appears in the book. You don't have the right to copy, transfer or modify the contents of that book into other forms though. Yes, you do. In the USA you have a right called "format shifting" which is part of the fair use law. ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
Locke DieDrake Human Information Virus	Posted - 2006.10.16 20:50:00 - [52] Originally by: Matthew Originally by: Locke DieDrake Still not getting it. While CCP clearly owns the "property", you aren't buying property when you buy isk or ships. You are paying for time to acquire that property. So by the same argument, if I buy a pirated CD, it's ok because I'm paying for the time taken to burn it, not the CD itself. Plenty of case law against that one. Isk isn't copyrighted. Are you really this missguided? ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
Stephar The High Priest	Posted - 2006.10.16 20:52:00 - [53] ISK in Eve is the equivalent of that fake money you get with your Monopoly board game. It only has value within the game, and people that are willing to exchange real money for fake monopoly money are simply taking the game too seriously. But if they insist on taxing in-game assets, they should be paid with in-game currency. Of course, due to the EULA, it will be illegal for the government to exchange their virtual currency for real-world currency. They'll be forced to create accounts... And if CCP assigns them a special corporation like "U.S. Internal Revenue Service," we can suicide gank them. That's a good way to get people to quit running missions. Why run missions when you can gank the IRS?
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2006.10.16 20:54:00 - [54] Originally by: Locke DieDrake Originally by: Matthew Originally by: Locke DieDrake That would normally only apply if you had already been banned and then hacked your way back in thru illicit means. Look it up. Actually, I have. There's plenty of case law of people being convicted for using systems they had been given access to in a way that they were not authorized to do so. There's actually a disturbing number of cases involving misuse of the police national computer. Point being, CCP can't use the law against you if you are using your account login. Even if you break the eula while doing it. Your actions in the virtual world do not consititute any crime in the real world, because (currently) the virtual world has no real wolrd relationship. The only way the computer misuse laws can be used is if you make a tangible effect on the real world. Information is tangible in legal terms. Virtual property is not. (yet) Yes they can. Because when you log-in, you agree to abide by certain limitations on what actions you will and will not perform. If you break those limitations, you have exceeded your access authorization, and are using the system in an unauthorized manner. It's exactly the same as the PNC cases - the officer had a login to the PNC, but was not allowed to use that access in the way that they did. I'll also note that the people involved didn't have to have actually done anything with the data, nor change it in any way. Merely accessing it was sufficient for the prosecution. Also, "Virtual Property" is information in the real world. When you get right down to it, it's just a string of zero's and one's just like any other information in any other database. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2006.10.16 20:59:00 - [55] Originally by: Locke DieDrake Isk isn't copyrighted. Are you really this missguided? No, isk isn't copyrighted. However the data structures and code that make it meaningful are. That's the thing. The binary value 10101010 may represent a value of isk. But only when it is stored in the correct position within a database (who's structure is copyrighted), and accessed by the correct software (which is also copyrighted). The question is, can you really claim to be transferring isk unless that value comes along with the database and software that makes the value meaningful (and which you do not have the right to copy or sell). ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
SadisticSavior Caldari Edenists	Posted - 2006.10.16 21:01:00 - [56] Quote: Problem is the IRS (or whatever tax agency) would have to collect their taxes in ISK. So the tax collectors would have to have Eve accounts or we couldnÆt transfer the ISK to them. Incorrect. The tax is only on the real-world money...not the virtual money. If you never "sell" your ISK for real-world dollars, you have no actual income, and therefore owe no taxes. Quote: All virtual property in eve is property of CCP as stated in EULA so there is nothing to collect. If you eBay your ISK for real-world dollars, you are getting actual real-world income. And that income can be taxed just like any other income. They are not talking about virtual income...only real income. Quote: When we use eBay, or Project Entropia's own facilities, to "sell in-game money", what we are really doing in a legal sense is providing a service, not trading. You are paying me to do a specific job, which is to modify a few bits in a database. The reason for the income is irrelevant. If you are getting real-world dollars (from whatever source), it is taxable income. It doesnt matter if they are paying you for your time, for in-game goods, or merely for your opinion. it is still income. Quote: The way I see it, it's crystal clear. If and when you sell in-game stuff for real money, you can be taxed. THANK you. At least someone gets it. Quote: Incidentally, this would be a hit to farmers, and I wouldn't shed a tear for them. Good point. So maybe this is a good thing. Quote: No they are illegal if the service provider says they are. No, they are not. The provider cannot take you to court and sue you for violating the EULA. All they can do is eject you from their game. That is what he meant by it not being illegal. EULAs are not enforcable outside their game. The EULA basically removes your ability to sue the game company if you violate it. Doesnt work the other way around though. Quote: While CCP clearly owns the "property", you aren't buying property when you buy isk or ships. You are paying for time to acquire that property. The ISK itself is a number on CCP's servers. CCP owns the ISK ultimately. Quote: This is scarey only because the people they want to tax do not live in the USA thus they will never pay it. It has already been that way for a long time in the US, even between states. For example, I live in Colorado. I can buy stuff online from companies in California and not have to pay the California State tax, because I dont live there. I also dont have to pay the Colorado state tax, because I am not buying a the product in Colorado.
Locke DieDrake Human Information Virus	Posted - 2006.10.16 21:01:00 - [57] Originally by: Matthew Originally by: Locke DieDrake Originally by: Matthew Originally by: Locke DieDrake That would normally only apply if you had already been banned and then hacked your way back in thru illicit means. Look it up. Actually, I have. There's plenty of case law of people being convicted for using systems they had been given access to in a way that they were not authorized to do so. There's actually a disturbing number of cases involving misuse of the police national computer. Point being, CCP can't use the law against you if you are using your account login. Even if you break the eula while doing it. Your actions in the virtual world do not consititute any crime in the real world, because (currently) the virtual world has no real wolrd relationship. The only way the computer misuse laws can be used is if you make a tangible effect on the real world. Information is tangible in legal terms. Virtual property is not. (yet) Yes they can. Because when you log-in, you agree to abide by certain limitations on what actions you will and will not perform. If you break those limitations, you have exceeded your access authorization, and are using the system in an unauthorized manner. It's exactly the same as the PNC cases - the officer had a login to the PNC, but was not allowed to use that access in the way that they did. I'll also note that the people involved didn't have to have actually done anything with the data, nor change it in any way. Merely accessing it was sufficient for the prosecution. Also, "Virtual Property" is information in the real world. When you get right down to it, it's just a string of zero's and one's just like any other information in any other database. This is not the time or place to argue about as yet undefined legal precident. As of this writting, not a single person on earth has been prosecuted under any law for breaking the EULA of a video game. End of conversation. Coulda, woulda shoulda don't mean **** in the legal world. Welcome to reality. ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
Ghoest	Posted - 2006.10.16 21:03:00 - [58] Originally by: Locke DieDrake Originally by: Ghoest Edited by: Ghoest on 16/10/2006 20:04:17 As I explained and you keep dodging the rules and control of the server create defacto ownership. Once ownership is established we have plenty of existing laws to govern it, unless they write a new more specific law to superceded the existing laws. Eulas may not be legally binding as contracts. But ownership is clearly defined in this case none the less. You seem to have confused the insubstancial nature of Eulas with the server owners ability to claim his property. My previous example clearly show who has ownerships(the server operator) in as long they dont dont specificaly give it away, in which case it could be argued. EDIT: I dont misunderstand the law. Your analogy was pathetic. A better analogy would be trying to sell the engine parts from a car you have rented. Its fraud because you dont own them. Still not getting it. While CCP clearly owns the "property", you aren't buying property when you buy isk or ships. You are paying for time to acquire that property. Quote: Disclaimer: All characters, items and ISK in Eve Online are the sole property of CCP, Simon and Schuster a Viacom company. This auction is NOT for the ownership of their intellectual property but it is merely for the time I spent acquiring the ISK or items and getting them to you. By bidding on this auction you are stating that you are in NO way affiliated with CCP, Simon and Schuster or a Viacom affiliated company. Eve Online is a trademark of CCP, Simon and Schuster interactive a division of Simon and Schuster the publishing operation of Viacom Inc. Taken from ebay isk seller. There is no fraud taking place. Get a clue. Ah ha - your mistake is not looking in the context of this disscussion. My entire case was based on a senerio where the Goverment decided to pursue virtual money and items as capital gains. Read my original post. If the Goverment decided to pursue virtual property as a capital gain then that it really doesnt matter if the Ebayer uses a little caveat like that. If the caveat was accept it would mean the govrt wasnt pursuing capital gains hich the condition this entire line of argument is based on You argued your self into a hole, you cant have it both ways. Now hush. Back to my original point. If the Goverment did decide to asign value to virtual items based on ebay sales the only protection gamers will have is if the service provider claims ownership of all content and thus makes all real world sales fraudulent. Wherever you went - here you are.
Locke DieDrake Human Information Virus	Posted - 2006.10.16 21:04:00 - [59] Originally by: Matthew Originally by: Locke DieDrake Isk isn't copyrighted. Are you really this missguided? No, isk isn't copyrighted. However the data structures and code that make it meaningful are. That's the thing. The binary value 10101010 may represent a value of isk. But only when it is stored in the correct position within a database (who's structure is copyrighted), and accessed by the correct software (which is also copyrighted). The question is, can you really claim to be transferring isk unless that value comes along with the database and software that makes the value meaningful (and which you do not have the right to copy or sell). You can only transfer isk to people that play EVE, in which case the copyrighted software and database are in fact already present. Also ª is what your binary comes out to. OR ¦. Depending on if you use ASCII or not. ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2006.10.16 21:04:00 - [60] Originally by: Locke DieDrake As of this writting, not a single person on earth has been prosecuted under any law for breaking the EULA of a video game. End of conversation. Coulda, woulda shoulda don't mean **** in the legal world. No, but they have been prosecuted for breaking terms of access on other systems. Because really, that's all an EULA is, your terms of access to the system. Call it an End User License Agreement, Terms of Service, Statement of Appropriate use, it's all the same thing. That sets a precedent. And precedent means a lot in the legal world. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.

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