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Locke DieDrake
Human Information Virus
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Posted - 2006.10.16 21:10:00 -
[61]
 Originally by: Ghoest
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
Originally by: Ghoest
Edited by: Ghoest on 16/10/2006 20:04:17
As I explained and you keep dodging the rules and control of the server create defacto ownership.
Once ownership is established we have plenty of existing laws to govern it, unless they write a new more specific law to superceded the existing laws.
Eulas may not be legally binding as contracts. But ownership is clearly defined in this case none the less.
You seem to have confused the insubstancial nature of Eulas with the server owners ability to claim his property. My previous example clearly show who has ownerships(the server operator) in as long they dont dont specificaly give it away, in which case it could be argued.
EDIT: I dont misunderstand the law. Your analogy was pathetic. A better analogy would be trying to sell the engine parts from a car you have rented. Its fraud because you dont own them.
Still not getting it.
While CCP clearly owns the "property", you aren't buying property when you buy isk or ships. You are paying for time to acquire that property.
Quote:
Disclaimer: All characters, items and ISK in Eve Online are the sole property of CCP, Simon and Schuster a Viacom company. This auction is NOT for the ownership of their intellectual property but it is merely for the time I spent acquiring the ISK or items and getting them to you. By bidding on this auction you are stating that you are in NO way affiliated with CCP, Simon and Schuster or a Viacom affiliated company. Eve Online is a trademark of CCP, Simon and Schuster interactive a division of Simon and Schuster the publishing operation of Viacom Inc.
Taken from ebay isk seller.
There is no fraud taking place. Get a clue.
Ah ha - your mistake is not looking in the context of this disscussion.
My entire case was based on a senerio where the Goverment decided to pursue virtual money and items as capital gains. Read my original post.
If the Goverment decided to pursue virtual property as a capital gain then that it really doesnt matter if the Ebayer uses a little caveat like that. If the caveat was accept it would mean the govrt wasnt pursuing capital gains hich the condition this entire line of argument is based on
You argued your self into a hole, you cant have it both ways. Now hush.
Back to my original point. If the Goverment did decide to asign value to virtual items based on ebay sales the only protection gamers will have is if the service provider claims ownership of all content and thus makes all real world sales fraudulent.
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
The issue here is that they aren't going to just up and tax you on what you have in online games. They are first going to legally redifine who owns what. And that is going to single handedly shut down the MMO worlds. Because as soon as CCP is legally liable for your "property" loss, this game can't be sustained.
From my first post in this thread. I don't think I have it both ways. My point all along has been that the current legal structure for virtual property can't be used if virtual property is to be assigned real world values.
You can't use current legal precedent on tax and property law to apply to virtual property. It doesn't work. See the **AA and talk to them about digital property.
Current legal systems provide protection for property that can not be readily copied and moved around instantly. There are DIFFERENT laws for property that can be be. And those laws will diverge EVEN further.
Just wait and see.
___________________________________________
The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain.
___________________________________________
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Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
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Posted - 2006.10.16 21:10:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
You can only transfer isk to people that play EVE, in which case the copyrighted software and database are in fact already present.
However you are not permitted to access the software and database for the purpose of transferring isk in exchange for real money.
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
Also ¬ is what your binary comes out to.
OR ¦. Depending on if you use ASCII or not.
Sorry, I didn't see that the exact value made a difference to my argument.
Incidentally, if you interpret it as an unsigned integer instead of a character, it's 170.
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There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
Locke DieDrake
Human Information Virus
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Posted - 2006.10.16 21:14:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Matthew
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
As of this writting, not a single person on earth has been prosecuted under any law for breaking the EULA of a video game.
End of conversation. Coulda, woulda shoulda don't mean **** in the legal world.
No, but they have been prosecuted for breaking terms of access on other systems. Because really, that's all an EULA is, your terms of access to the system. Call it an End User License Agreement, Terms of Service, Statement of Appropriate use, it's all the same thing. That sets a precedent. And precedent means a lot in the legal world.
But those other systems, where that precedent was set have real world impactable infomation. Where as eve doesn't.
(if you don't count credit card information, which is seperate from the game server and a different class of information).
Also, those precendents don't specificly apply to online games. Only online information services, where the information is not generally considered public.
No court is going to extend that protection to an online game. The only way those computer missuse laws can be applied is if you disrupted eve's operation and therefore had a tangible effect on CCP.
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The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain.
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Titen
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Posted - 2006.10.16 21:18:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Titen on 16/10/2006 21:18:57
Scenario.
You own your own RL business. You invest big bucks into a lot of materials to run your business with. Your building burns down and, to make matters worse, someone steals your company car.
There you have it. A serious business loss. A tax writeoff.
So now, swap it over to virtual gaming. You've Ebay'd some stuff, so there is now a precident set for it's value.. but wait! Someone ganked your hauler full of zyd on your way to make a delivery.. Billions in writeoffs.
It'll never happen anyway.. just because of that example. If you put a RL monetary value on virtual goods, then you (meaning the tax man) have to allot you RL monetary value for the loss of those goods.
Heck, for 180 bucks a year I'll take a few billion in writeoffs on my taxes.. bring it on!
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Locke DieDrake
Human Information Virus
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Posted - 2006.10.16 21:18:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Matthew
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
You can only transfer isk to people that play EVE, in which case the copyrighted software and database are in fact already present.
However you are not permitted to access the software and database for the purpose of transferring isk in exchange for real money.
True, but at the same time, no one has ever been legally prossecuted for such actions, and until such time, those actions are not illegal. Enforcement is Law. Unenforced laws are just fluf.
Quote:
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
Also ¬ is what your binary comes out to.
OR ¦. Depending on if you use ASCII or not.
Sorry, I didn't see that the exact value made a difference to my argument.
Incidentally, if you interpret it as an unsigned integer instead of a character, it's 170.
Well yes, I suppose thats true. Not much in the way of isk.
And of course it doesn't have relevance. But this whole thread is like that. No relevance in the real world.
___________________________________________
The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain.
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Goumindong
Amarr
The Forsakened Companions
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.10.16 21:20:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Tarazed Aquilae
Problem is the IRS (or whatever tax agency) would have to collect their taxes in ISK. So the tax collectors would have to have Eve accounts or we couldnĘt transfer the ISK to them.
Tax agencies use the threat of real world violence to force people to pay their taxes. This is against the EULA so the tax collector would be banned. Therefore governments canĘt tax the Eve economyą Podding a tax collector would be a lot of fun though.
Seriously, i thought the same thing.
What the heck is any government going to do with isk? Buy time cards? Does it go to fund public works and services in the game? Certianly not, those are created by fiat and have no overhead except the cash it takes CCP to do that, which is payed for by subscriptions, which is already taxed.
There isnt anything to worry about, no gonvernment can use the assets they would collect and no government could justify the expendature for such a program anyway.
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Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
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Posted - 2006.10.16 21:26:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
But those other systems, where that precedent was set have real world impactable infomation. Where as eve doesn't.
Information doesn't just drop out of the real world just because it describes a virtual world. A fiction novel is no less copyrighted just because it describes something that isn't real.
The Computer Misuse Act also does not refer to any type of data being more or less protected than another.
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
Also, those precendents don't specificly apply to online games. Only online information services, where the information is not generally considered public.
Are the contents of my hangar generally considered public? The transaction list in my wallet? No, they are not. They are accessible to me, to people I choose to grant access (i.e. my corp security officers and higher for hangar contents), and administrators of the system. Just the same as any other information service.
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
No court is going to extend that protection to an online game.
Why not? Just because the server describes a game world, rather than a chat room, email server, banking system, or anything else, does not change the fundamental fact that it is a computer system, and thus governed under the Computer Misuse Act.
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
The only way those computer missuse laws can be applied is if you disrupted eve's operation and therefore had a tangible effect on CCP.
The Computer Misuse Act does not require there to be any harmful consequences from the unauthorized access, for that access to be a crime. It also does not make any differentiation over the type or purpose of the program or data involved:
Originally by: Computer Misuse Act
1.ł(1) A person is guilty of an offence ifł
(a) he causes a computer to perform any function with intent to secure access to any program or data held in any computer;
(b) the access he intends to secure is unauthorised; and
(c) he knows at the time when he causes the computer to perform the function that that is the case.
(2) The intent a person has to have to commit an offence under this section need not be directed atł
(a) any particular program or data;
(b) a program or data of any particular kind; or
(c) a program or data held in any particular computer.
(3) A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale or to both.
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There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
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Posted - 2006.10.16 21:30:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
True, but at the same time, no one has ever been legally prossecuted for such actions, and until such time, those actions are not illegal. Enforcement is Law. Unenforced laws are just fluf.
I wish you luck using that defence in court. If something isn't illegal until someone has been prosecuted for it, how do you ever get to prosecute the first person? After all, by your argument it's not let illegal, so there's no crime to prosecute.
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There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
Ehranavaar
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Posted - 2006.10.16 21:42:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 16/10/2006 15:35:34
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 16/10/2006 15:32:28
If the Inland Revenue tries to tax my ISK I will:
* Apply for my monthly subscription to be tax deductible as a business expense.
* Invest my ISK into ships and class them as assets.
I am quite confident that if this happens HM Government will in fact end up owing me money because I basically suck at making ISK.
you may think you made a joke but it's actually a perfectly valid point. if they want to tax you on the in game profits then you will be able to write off rl costs incurred to earn the ingame profits. same sort of principle was in play when that florida judge ruled that a drug dealers bribes to police officers were a valid business expense in his line of work. it was quite surreal.
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2006.10.16 21:43:00 -
[70]
Like I pointed ou earlier he is just argueing the semantics of "legal".
Does a law make some thing illegal or does a precident? Really hes just argueing in circles. He is vastly over extending the ramifications of some aspects of EULAs being uninforcable.
And most hes just argueing even beyond his on self contridictions.
Wherever you went - here you are.
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Locke DieDrake
Human Information Virus
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Posted - 2006.10.16 21:47:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Matthew
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
True, but at the same time, no one has ever been legally prossecuted for such actions, and until such time, those actions are not illegal. Enforcement is Law. Unenforced laws are just fluf.
I wish you luck using that defence in court. If something isn't illegal until someone has been prosecuted for it, how do you ever get to prosecute the first person? After all, by your argument it's not let illegal, so there's no crime to prosecute.
Have people broken EULAs in video games? Yes
Have they done so using real world money? Yes
Has anyone, ever been prosecuted because of it? No.
Draw whatever conclusion you like from that.
Ghoest- now you can't even bother replying specificly, you are just going to simply state I'm wrong. Strong case you have there.
___________________________________________
The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain.
___________________________________________
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Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
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Posted - 2006.10.16 21:57:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
Originally by: Matthew
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
True, but at the same time, no one has ever been legally prossecuted for such actions, and until such time, those actions are not illegal. Enforcement is Law. Unenforced laws are just fluf.
I wish you luck using that defence in court. If something isn't illegal until someone has been prosecuted for it, how do you ever get to prosecute the first person? After all, by your argument it's not let illegal, so there's no crime to prosecute.
Have people broken EULAs in video games? Yes
Have they done so using real world money? Yes
Has anyone, ever been prosecuted because of it? No.
Draw whatever conclusion you like from that.
My conclusion is that the current legal system imposes a high cost bar for such prosecutions, especially when they may involve extradition, and the violations are not viewed as being serious enough for people to overcome that cost bar and press charges.
Of course we don't know 100% whether such a prosecution would be successful, but we can make a measured guess. But by the same argument you use, we can't know whether someone stealing an inflatable bunny while unicycling round trafalgar square singing god save the queen (something I'm pretty sure hasn't been prosecuted for before). However, it's quite likely they would be convicted of theft just like any other thief.
Of course, get 10 lawyers in a room, and you'll come out with 11 mutually exclusive legal opinions anyway.
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There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
Ghoest
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Posted - 2006.10.16 22:08:00 -
[73]
I proved you wrong already. Your response was "I don't think I have it both ways."
Then you took 2 steps back and repeated the point I had just shown to be moot based on the context of the discussion.
Im not going to argue any more with you. Its as if I explained to you how you cant ride a bicycle on water, and you keep saying I am wrong then explain who you ride on the streat.
Any way I was telling Matthew to dismiss you. I was not trying to re-engage you.
Wherever you went - here you are.
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Vanye Inovske
Two Brothers Mining Corp.
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.16 23:21:00 -
[74]
The idea that ISK or ships or whatever are "virtual assets" is so ridiculous as to be laughable. CCP could shut down EVE tomorrow and owe none of us a damn thing, and no one would have the slightest bit of legal recourse against them over our loss of ISK and ships. If something is really an asset, people can't take it away from me without me having legal recourse. If my Apoc is REALLY an asset, then if I get ganked and it's blown up, I should be able to sue (in real life courts) the gankers for compensation. If CCP decides EVE is losing money and shuts it down, I should be able to sue them for taking my character and all my virtual goodies away without compensating me. That's what it is for something to be property. That's what it is for something to be an asset. But I couldn't do that. (Well, okay, I could file suit, but I'd be laughed out of court.)
If I sell isk or ships online for real money, then I've got myself an asset. The real money can't be taken from me, not without giving me legal recourse. You mug me and take my wallet, I can not only press criminal charges but sue for compensation. Virtual assets? They aren't worth the paper they're printed on. |
Alessar Kaldorei
Caldari
Astral Wolves
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Posted - 2006.10.16 23:39:00 -
[75]
I think this would be awesome if it were to happen. Once the goverment accepts that virtual assets can be taxable, they're not just saying that you have to pay taxes for them. They're saying you can pay your real work income taxes with isk as well. After all, if they say they're assets, you can surrender them to the goverment to pay for your taxes.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.10.17 02:29:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
Originally by: Ghoest
In a game like WOW all the tie ins to real world economys are illegal.
If you make real profit you have to report it, but you cant be changed for items in game because technically you dont own them. When you ebay gold from WOW the money you make is technically pofit from fraud.
They are not illegal. They are violations of the EULA which has been variously charciterized as uneforceable and a guidline, not a contract.
Meaning, under the law, nothing is illegal about selling in game currencies. Even in games where it is against the rules.
The issue here is that they aren't going to just up and tax you on what you have in online games. They are first going to legally redifine who owns what. And that is going to single handedly shut down the MMO worlds. Because as soon as CCP is legally liable for your "property" loss, this game can't be sustained.
What our lawmakers do here in the US, does not dicate how an Icelandic business will be run,
Originally by: kieron
The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Seventh Paradox
Gallente
XenTech
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Posted - 2006.10.17 06:05:00 -
[77]
It's classed as a hobby in the Australian tax system. As long as you don't make over $50,000 a year from it you don't get taxed.
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Argenton Sayvers
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Posted - 2006.10.17 18:16:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Matthew
No, but they have been prosecuted for breaking terms of access on other systems. Because really, that's all an EULA is, your terms of access to the system. Call it an End User License Agreement, Terms of Service, Statement of Appropriate use, it's all the same thing. That sets a precedent. And precedent means a lot in the legal world.
I actually agree with this view. It is entirely possible that this legal trick might lead to success. Note that you avoid the actual problem (ZOMG CCP SAYS ITS ALL THEIRS, THEFT!!!) and instead use something that indeed has many legal precedents (and is taken a lot more seriously by the general population - everyone fears the nerdy linux hacker ;) ) in a way that doesnt make "common" sense.
The possibilty of arresting people for using macros in MMORPGs, or even "playing the game in a way that wasnt intended" is a great way to show that law can go both ways. A court is (in theory) immune to the threats of big companies and their selfish interests, but in the same way, they are immune to common sense.
However, the terms of service may still be deemed illegal ("You cannot use this email service for anything but sending spam plus, you have to sacrifice a virgin every second month").
Note that many countries regard "good faith" higher then the actual text of a contract. There were many rulings that deemed contracts void that contained "suprising" clauses in the small print even though those conditions were not "indecent" themself.
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Hllaxiu
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.10.17 19:06:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
What our lawmakers do here in the US, does not dicate how an Icelandic business will be run,
Well, actually if Kieron wants to get paid, they better stick to US laws.
---
Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |
Gobblock
Caldari
AlderTrans Incorporated
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Posted - 2006.10.17 19:25:00 -
[80]
i really want to see the irs decide to tax ore mining 
they can either pay me real world money to haul it to them, i mean, its real money, and they are keeping me away from mining, which according to them is real income.
or they can send a freighter around to pick up everyones ore, and i will gladly find 50 some people to pop in their 500k sp kestral alts.
The whole conecpt is comletly ******* insane, i dont put rl money in or out of eve, and ifthey want to tax me they can have some isk
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Winterblink
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.10.17 19:30:00 -
[81]
How they can consider taxing something they repeatedly refer to as "virtual" is something I'll never understand.
Warp Drive Active | EVE: Nature Vraie |
Acama
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Posted - 2006.10.17 21:27:00 -
[82]
If ISK => real cash can be taxed, how do they handle the fact that ccp/a ccp employee can create ISK at will?
How can a good have value if there is a truly infinite supply? 
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Sandeman Reserve
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Posted - 2006.10.17 22:22:00 -
[83]
The ONLY way that this can work is with cash-out... eg: If you sell your in-game goodies for RL money.
All they can do then is tax that money you've received as income.
This is currently already taxed.
If they start taxing people for capital gains due to in-game 'property', then they'll have to start chasing the people who scam you of your in-game property, as it then becomes ACTUAL theft...
Rob
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Ansuru Starlancer
The Phoenix Rising
Chimaera Pact
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Posted - 2006.10.17 22:39:00 -
[84]
Y'know, the internal economy of a game world should just be considered its own sovereign state and be done with it. It's a game, f'cryin' out loud! The day the IRS pokes its evil fingers into mmo economies is the day the genre dies. I mean, hell, they aren't even all run by companies located in the US...take Eve for example!
Not to mention the fact that the idea also cuts right across any pretense of intellectual property protections (not that copyright law isn't severely outdated and in need of major, major reforms to fit the current data culture).
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Ansuru Starlancer
The Phoenix Rising
Chimaera Pact
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Posted - 2006.10.17 22:47:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Acama
If ISK => real cash can be taxed, how do they handle the fact that ccp/a ccp employee can create ISK at will?
How can a good have value if there is a truly infinite supply?
The us government can print money at will, as well. And yet we have seen in the past what happens when you try to solve your money problems by printing as much as you want: the currency's value drops.
However, that analogy does bring up an interesting point...should the in-game world of Eve be considered a sovereign nation? It's got its own government, economy, and population, prints its own money, has its own internal laws...
*faux french accent*
VIVA LA REVOLUTION!!!! Ze Federation, eet shall stand supreme again!!
(Hey, I'm Gallente...we're supposedly descended from the French, iirc...)
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.10.18 00:00:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Acama
How can a good have value if there is a truly infinite supply?
It's easy.
Originally by: kieron
The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.10.18 00:03:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Hllaxiu
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
What our lawmakers do here in the US, does not dicate how an Icelandic business will be run,
Well, actually if Kieron wants to get paid, they better stick to US laws.
Nothing stopping them from paying him at an icelandic address via a work visa, even if he lives in the US.
Originally by: kieron
The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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