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Zoxia
Gallente
University of Caille
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Posted - 2006.10.22 06:23:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Viktoria Maher
Originally by: Zoxia
I mean come on this game has the most lax skill system ive seen. its as casual as it gets IMHO.
so you lost some time cause you didnt log in and play?? thats your choice believe it or not.
I'm guessing you don't work for a living, do you.
If you want an MMO that rewards people for not having a life, there are plenty of other ones to choose from that are more appropriate for your tastes.
Im guessing you dont want to play this game to be rewarded but would rather have things handed to you on a silver platter.
All the other MMO's are much harder than this as far as raising skills.
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Dilandil Ma'al
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Posted - 2006.10.22 06:52:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Zoxia
Originally by: Viktoria Maher
Originally by: Zoxia
I mean come on this game has the most lax skill system ive seen. its as casual as it gets IMHO.
so you lost some time cause you didnt log in and play?? thats your choice believe it or not.
I'm guessing you don't work for a living, do you.
If you want an MMO that rewards people for not having a life, there are plenty of other ones to choose from that are more appropriate for your tastes.
Im guessing you dont want to play this game to be rewarded but would rather have things handed to you on a silver platter.
All the other MMO's are much harder than this as far as raising skills.
if you like a grindfest, well there's the other 99% of the MMORPGs out there. one of the biggest selling points of this game is that it's relatively casual-friendly. I don't see why this is a big deal. it's not like changing skills is some kind of accomplishment that deserves reward. if you want reward, well you already have it since you have more time to isk-grind.
anyway skill queuing would remove a lot of annoyances. although I'm not holding my breath on this... it's been requested for a very long time
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Zoxia
Gallente
University of Caille
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Posted - 2006.10.22 15:19:00 -
[33]
well good then :) if its no big accomplishment to change a skill then you wont mind if they dont have a skill que then. problem solved!
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Monica Foulkes
Hooligans Of War
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Posted - 2006.10.22 23:16:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Monica Foulkes on 22/10/2006 23:16:18
Give us a skill buffer instead of a skill queues that can be exploited by suspended accounts. That way you can make sure you have skills scheduled for the next eight to twelve hours but you can't have BC5 followed by BS5 (unless it's less than the lenght of the buffer left on BC5). 
The 8h skill buffer |
Viktoria Maher
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Posted - 2006.10.23 00:01:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Zoxia
Im guessing you dont want to play this game to be rewarded but would rather have things handed to you on a silver platter.
All the other MMO's are much harder than this as far as raising skills.
How useful are skills if you don't actually play the game? Not very. The reward for playing the game include isk, faction, etc. If I asked for all skills to be trained instantly then you may have had a point, but as it is your strawman is on fire.
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Dilandil Ma'al
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Posted - 2006.10.23 00:29:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Dilandil Ma''al on 23/10/2006 00:33:30
Originally by: Zoxia
well good then :) if its no big accomplishment to change a skill then you wont mind if they dont have a skill que then. problem solved!
I don't really mind. I mean I've put up with it for all this time. But it sure would be a nice feature so I can forget about it when I'm not playing. Having the skill training hanging in the back of my head is an annoyance.
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Zoxia
Gallente
University of Caille
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Posted - 2006.10.23 04:15:00 -
[37]
The facts are this part of the game is not broken.
The skills system is the way it is for a reason otherwise they would have changed it before release. They had people complaining back then and guess what?? they did not change it.
Its quite funny to see things like we need to keep the game raw and the PvP harsh but in the same breath read these posts of making the game extremely easy to learn skills.
Part of playing the game is managing your skill learnings and its that way because the DEVS want it that way.
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Oneye Zheng
Amarr
Eve University
Ivy League
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Posted - 2006.10.23 12:52:00 -
[38]
First off, I do feel pretty lucky that skills advance the way they do being a busy person. I mean this is awesome and one of the great things about this game that interested me to start playing.
Plus it means less grinding which is great, it really helps with being able to do more fun things during your play time instead of doing the grind so you can eventually enjoy the game eventually.
I agree that there are times were I would like to be able to queue a few skills together, but I try not to let it bug me so much because I recognize that there should be a level of reward for effort. As the saying goes you appreciate something you have to work for, and feel a sense of accomplishment when it's done.
However in saying that I also recognize that everyone has different time commitments and situations that affect any number of things, so developers have to consider who they want to make the product (read game) available to.
I think that the advanced learning skill that would allow skill training already mentioned here is a great idea and one that remains true to the reward for effort & investment.
This skill should take long enough to train that so that those that go for it are the ones that really need it to fit their game time needs, while those that don't need it, and simply have more time can simply ignore it.
I know that this means that the busy folks may have to spend some weeks and getting this ability, but there is great reward for that time investment for them.
I think the general consensus of the players is that there could be something in place to help facilitate skill training to the busy folk, so now comes that hard part.
Getting the mass audience to all agree on 1 solution, which (almost) never happens.
Or someone steps up to try and make the sales pitch of an idea to CCP. I wonder if a busy person out there that really needs this sort of a skill would actually have any time to push it forward?
If there is one, what is the way to go about this here? (I'm still a new player here) Forum petition or something?
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Vincent Valkyre
Caldari
Lynx Frontier Inc.
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.31 07:16:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Vincent Valkyre on 31/10/2006 07:19:59
When it comes down to it, I don't particularly like the idea of an endless queue for your skills. You should have to put something into the game to progress within it. However, my personal situation makes me want one, at least for myself. ;D I've been playing for about a month. I love the hell out of this game. My problem is deployments. I'm in the Navy, which forces me to lose touch with the world for six or so months at a time. Being the system administrator for my ship's computer systems affords me the ability to make logging on to EVE happen, even when at sea, except for the Navy's firewalls blocking port 26000. Thus, I can check my skills in browser, but I can't connect to Tranquility simply to change to a new skill. I would gladly continue to pay monthly to be able to skillbuild for those six months, but I simply can't get into the game. That being said, another way of keeping my skill points accruing while I'm not capable of doing it manually would be spectacular. Honestly, if I could change skills in-browser, I would probably start a third account just to take advantage. Then, those six months wouldn't be a total loss as far as gaming is concerned.
I guess my point is, some situations make for a significant need for queueing, but I still don't think it should be done. You've got to earn it. Setting up a new character with lots of books, setting the queue, and coming back in a month (or six) will definately be done, and I don't think that is good for the game as a whole. That doesn't mean I don't wish I could, though.
VV
incendivm systinet internvs
the fire within, sustains |
Lothena
Caldari
DesFlynne Holdings FLC
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Posted - 2006.10.31 12:17:00 -
[40]
From the other queue thread:
I think we have a good case for using a skill queue of some kind. Aside from being unable to powerlevel due to training in real time. Being unable to train on more than one character at a time on an account ( this is to prevent an exploit the first item may provide ). And being able to train offline thus balancing the casual and non-casual gamers. You are still left with the actual buying of the skill which involves travel and money. You also couldn't queue a skill book to train in, you'd only be able to queue new levels of skills you know.
The next question is how do you implement a queue and what determines the queue length. This is my idea. Create a clone queue mechanism. Allow a queue length to be a set number of skill points just like a clone is and allow a person to place whatever skills they want into the queue and when the skill points of the queue clone are used up, the queue stops. As for a price for a queue clone, perhaps make them double the cost of the same skill point level clone would cost.
Scourge of the asteroids. |
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Shaemell Buttleson
Euphoria Released
Euphoria Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.10.31 12:30:00 -
[41]
I want a skill queue but I'd also like to see cancelled accounts stop training straight away or even rolling back the skills to the last one completed!
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Plutonian
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Posted - 2006.11.06 21:58:00 -
[42]
Like the OP, I've lost training time due to server problems. But I'd guess that's the way it goes.
If I focus a goodly chunk of time on an area in real-life (say digital art), then it stands to reason that I should become more proficent than those who have not. That is as it should be; those willing to pour more of their daily lives into something should excell past those who, for whatever reasons, do not.
By what right do those who can't log at appropriate times to change a skill demand to keep up with those who do? If this was occuring at your workplace, with entry-level positions claiming they need to access seniority more easily than you did on your way up, would you not resist it?
And before the flames: I'm self-employed, married w/two kids, house/car/etc upkeep... the works. Yet I manage to find the time.
Yeah, I've been screwed by the outages. The upgrade on Nov 1 dropped early and I was finishing up a quickie skill before switching to the long one. 28 hours gone. But that's the way it goes. And I'd suspect any long-term player of this game can tell tales worse than mine.
Just my 2 ISK. 
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Vitagren Tsuko
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Posted - 2006.11.07 05:36:00 -
[43]
There are many good arguments for both sides of the queue issue in this thread. I was in favor of some kind of training queue/stacking, but now I'm not so sure. Then I started wondering about the why. Here are some thoughts:
Would a queue system effect the game and/or other players?
I have been meticulous at skill training management. I might be jealous of someone who sat in a station for their first 3 months chugging through a skill queue, but would I know? Maybe when they came out and didn't know how to play but otherwise It doesn't effect me directly. My opinion is they pay for their account the same as I do, so be it. Think of all the less login, change skill, logouts that are adding to the server lag.
Does it make account selling easier?
Yes, but hopefully CCP is tracking this anyhow and banning accordingly. Again, someone selling accounts still doesn't affect me directly. I'm more concerned with macroers who sell ISK because it unbalances the economy.
People would queue a ton of skills and cancel their account then come back maxxed.
Please tell me a cancelled/suspended account does not keep training. How hard could it be for all training to get stopped at account deactivation?
I for one like, and somewhat hate, how the training mechanic prohibits power leveling. The hardest training times for me are the ones in the 3 to 8 hour range. I play for 3 hours (during the week), and I work or sleep for 8 hours.
My version of the training would be this:
Have an advanced learning skill (maybe learning V prereq.) that is rank 6 or something high. Each level in this skill allows you to "stack" an additional training. When two skills are stacked, they both finish at the same time which is the sum of both training times.
Example: skill A takes 2 hours, skill B takes 1 hour. After 1.5 hours both are 50% done (half of 3 hour total)
Just my 2 ISK. This doesn't take skills with different ability bases into account. Only total training time.
Anyone else?
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Rog Asgard
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Posted - 2006.11.24 09:46:00 -
[44]
I am all in favor of some type of skill queueing. At the very least I would like to see a skill that completed continue training to the next level automatically. I have lost a couple days of training time due to server outages. By the way could we have pop up windows with scheduled extended server downtimes say in the 48 hours prior to outage.
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mjolnir feaw
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Posted - 2006.11.24 11:28:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Zoxia
OHHH one more thing you get to train them most of the time when your not even playing the **** game. that right there is a big bonus and i wish they didnt do it. I'd rather it be based on actual logged in time.
Sorry if I repeat things already said: I read until that post only and there I had to react: I skip the moronic argument about profession day 1 etc.(it's a choice thing) to come to the point about queuing skill:
It is obvious that hardcore gamers don't like the idea of skill queue while people who have a real life find the idea attractive.
People who play a lot get daily isk we little-time players can only dream of. That's why CCP made a skill system to help us.
Smart move: that's what kept me paying eve while I quited other MMO and I'm sure I'm not a rarity.
Remember: while big players make the online part of the game work, the offline part of the game (like: CCP) can't work without us little players (think about hardware ressource use over a month)
I have another idea about skills: ok no queuing, and we make skill points according to our logging time only, but at the end of the month we pay Eve by the time spent on Eve! What do you think about that? Thought so.
While I'm at it:
The idea of a "lazy gamer" is just plain stupid: do you still remember this is a game, or even what a game is for? We're not on eve to work hard, we're on eve to play and have fun...
" There's no brave in a 5-to-1 fight. Just 5 cowards and a fool.
- Perhaps. But it worked didn't it?"
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Nardon
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.11.24 12:32:00 -
[46]
Originally by: mjolnir feaw
Originally by: Zoxia
OHHH one more thing you get to train them most of the time when your not even playing the **** game. that right there is a big bonus and i wish they didnt do it. I'd rather it be based on actual logged in time.
Sorry if I repeat things already said: I read until that post only and there I had to react: I skip the moronic argument about profession day 1 etc.(it's a choice thing) to come to the point about queuing skill:
It is obvious that hardcore gamers don't like the idea of skill queue while people who have a real life find the idea attractive.
People who play a lot get daily isk we little-time players can only dream of. That's why CCP made a skill system to help us.
Smart move: that's what kept me paying eve while I quited other MMO and I'm sure I'm not a rarity.
Remember: while big players make the online part of the game work, the offline part of the game (like: CCP) can't work without us little players (think about hardware ressource use over a month)
And to chime in on that. Zoxia seems to argue with the instant gratification thing. Smart move^^ There is no instant gratification in a skill queue. A skill in the queue won't train faster than a skill that was started manually. So where is the major achievement that a skill queue would diminish? In the logging in and changing the skill part.
If you(Zoxia) would argue against giving out ISK for free and/or instant skill learning you'd have my support. That is the area where the instant gratification argument hits home. But on a skill queue it couldn't be farther off.
So yes, I'd like to see a queue too. But I don't like alot of those restrictions already posted. As long as the subscription is active the queue should change skills according to plan. And I don't want to place artifical restrictions like only two skills or a limited number of lvl(x) skills etc. If you don't want to log in it is your choice. But as the skill system is not bound to your login time neither should the queue.
If the account is canceled the currently trained skill should finish and then nothing happens. That would be like it is now anyways.
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Emma Green
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Posted - 2006.11.24 12:55:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Emma Green on 24/11/2006 12:56:41
I like the idea of 24h max queue system. Then u can but lvl1 and lvl2 and maybe 3 on one skill to train .... or but different lvl1-2 skills to train whyle working. u cant queue long skills ... eveybody wins
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Toxote
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Posted - 2006.11.24 16:10:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Toxote on 24/11/2006 16:14:02
I think the skill system is fine the way it is.
It is one of the best skill systems out there for casual players, yet there is still an advantage to those who play all the time.
Personally, I'm a casual player. If my skill que sits empty for a few hours or even a day or two - who really cares? I'm not racing to be the top skilled player in the game - I'm playing to have fun. The time I spent with friends or family, on vacation, working to support my family - whatever - was more than worth having my que sit empty for a little while.
My point is this:
If people who "have no life" want to spend that much time being available for the game, shouldn't they reap some kind of benefit from the skills system?
And if you really do "have a life" - do you actually care that your training que on a video game sat empty for a little while?
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Shadow Lightbringer
Nightghosts Inc
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Posted - 2006.11.25 13:00:00 -
[49]
I don't think a skill queue is really something EVE needs. The skill system in this game is already very casual, does it really need to be made even more casual?
Even on the tightest of schedules, it is not tough to get in for five minutes to set a long skill. If you really don't have the time to get into the game to set a skill, then maybe you need to take a look at where your priorities are and decide if it is even worth paying a subscription for a game you don't have time to play. 
---
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Alhambra Rainwalker
Caldari
Rosa Alba
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.25 13:29:00 -
[50]
Now that training with unpaid accout thing is going away, I feel that training queue is a good thing to have.
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Vrizuh
Eve Defence Force
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.26 07:39:00 -
[51]
To respond to a few comments in this thread:
1. The idea that you should only be able to train skill whilst logged in is ridiculous. If that system came in you know what I'd do? Leave my account in a station, logged in, whenever Im not around. So Im using a character slot and server resources that an actual playing player would want to use. Worse, you'd create a market for trained up players. Guess how many of those isk sellers would then have alts training?
2. "Other games make you earn your xp". True. You want to discuss other MMOs? Really? Cos, WoW is another MMO. No clones, no need. No equipment loss.. there's a reason why WoW is sitting on the top whilst Lineage2 has been spending a lot of time mimicking it. You make it harder for people to participate in regular gameplay and they either don't play or they turn to account powerlevellers and sellers. You might not care now, but how about if EvE was lame in anything other than 1 specific timezone due to a lack of player interest?
3. "Players shouldnt get rewarded for not playing". Well actually they're paying for their account. Arguebly, they deserve something. Why exactly should the player using the MOST bandwidth (expense), super computer time (expense) etc get more than the player who uses jack all bandwidth and server resources for the same price? Skills training is not a huge reward you know. The players who are playing get:
Money
Connections
Knowledge.
All of which are hugely important in EvE. If you arent playing, you dont know the market. You have to break into a market dominated by savvy players. If you dont have connections, you're probably not in a super great corp or alliance. If you don't have knowledge, you get ganked everytime you go near lowsec.
4. Players play EvE for specific reasons. I think it would be wise to take a poll and find out those reasons before trying to make Eve like all the MMOs they're *not* playing. You think its a simple thing to argue that queues shouldnt be allowed in. Afterall, other games dont do that. But it doesnt stop there. Because then the 'skill' players who up. Who demand they be rewarded for their genius skill. They want details like which way a ship was facing to play in. They want players who can aim/have low ping, to dominate against players who can't/have high ping.
Finally let me say this. It takes months to build up a several million SP character. You'd need to pay account fee for each month. At the end you would just have a broke character with sp (btw, you'd need to earn money for skills). That money for account could instead be spent on GTCs. You'd have enough ISK to buy a high SP character and equipment. So who cares about queues? Anyone levelling a character for sale is already the kind of person who is there to set the training. (If you're a real tightarse, you could buy an account, sell a tonne of GTCs, invest, then cancel account. Come back a year later and you have a stack of dividend cash just sitting there..no effort)
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Since entering 0.0 I've noticed my wallet slowly crawl towards 0.00. Coincidence? I think not
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Arte
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Posted - 2006.11.26 11:40:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Zoxia
The facts are this part of the game is not broken.
The skills system is the way it is for a reason otherwise they would have changed it before release. They had people complaining back then and guess what?? they did not change it.
Its quite funny to see things like we need to keep the game raw and the PvP harsh but in the same breath read these posts of making the game extremely easy to learn skills.
Part of playing the game is managing your skill learnings and its that way because the DEVS want it that way.
You're right, the skill system isn't broken, it works just fine.
But your approach is a little narrow minded. You're anticipating the folks that like to go play BF2142 to take a break from Eve and can't be bothered to come back in. What about those who have real life commitments though, that prevent them from playing, not by choice but by necessity.
My job takes me away on occasion for months at a time and whilst I am still willing to pay for my account, I had to ask a corp mate to change skills for me... and it's against the EULA to give him my access details. I anticipate that your answer would be 'get another job'
It's done now, and I'm back and enjoying the game again. If not I'd have lost close to 8 months of continuous training. I did lose out on the experience of the new game features and content so that was the penalty.
Some sort of skill queue would help those in similar circumstances.
Before inactive accounts become barred from skill training, your points are valid. Once that occurs they have less relevance.
If I want to take a break from the game, I take the 2 minutes out of my life a day to log on, change skills and log off again. If I don't want to play then having to log on to change skills isn't going to change that.
Despite what you think, the devs acknowledge this and are looking into ways it could be done. If you read the 'Drawing board' part of patch notes, it says...
Quote:
Skill Training - Queue or Dual training
Enabling players to either queue so that training takes the next skill level or starts training another skill up another level. Dual training enables you to have a primary long-term skill in training with a secondary short-term skill sharing the training time. After the secondary skill level has trained, the primary skill trains at 100% again.
As has been pointed out in this post already.
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Signaldog
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Posted - 2006.11.27 00:07:00 -
[53]
Just want to jump in on this one as I've had lengthy discussions about it and have read all the posts so far.
There are positives and negatives on both sides. I know that a large portion of active players (that is they play when they can, even if it's only 1 day in 5) would like to see some kind of skill queing. The best option I've heard (and discussed with others) is to have a queue of 2-3 skills that train in succession. Only with active/full pay accounts and only as long as they stay that way. You can't train new skills, only level up already known ones.
There seems to be a concensus on the "pro-queue" side of the fence that this is probably the best way to do it. The real question is: What's the majority? Pro-Queue or Anti-Queue?
Signaldog/Roid Hound
~ S*&$ Breakers and Life Takers!!! ~
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Protunia
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.11.27 02:15:00 -
[54]
personally? I hope they never do this skill que thing.
If they do it should be very limited with a short time frame in mind.
My Character Stats
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Wieland II
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Posted - 2006.11.27 19:35:00 -
[55]
I am for a 2 skill queue that only works on active/non-trial accounts.
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Peter Wigins
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Posted - 2006.11.27 20:26:00 -
[56]
Yes definitly a 2 skill queue would be ideal. Sometimes you have that oddball skill youd like to train and have to wait four hours for before setting the long one before you go sleep. So again i dont think 8 skills+ is needed but a 2 skill q is fine. I dont get why people would contest it unless they play all day and need some kind of advantage over the people with lives.
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