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Dr Caymus
Gallente
Applied Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2006.10.21 19:45:00 -
[1]
I've been mulling a different idea for skills lately. The current five-level skill system doesn't really test the concept of diminishing marginal returns very well. It is too easy to max out any given skill. Some skills have ôadvancedö variants, such as learning skills, but players still are able to max these out in a relatively short time.
I think all skills need a sixth and seventh level, following the same progression as the first five levels. Currently, a rank 1 skill starts at 250 points for level one and grows progressively to 256,000 points for level 5. Each successive level requires 5.66 more points than the previous level, derived as follows: (256,000/250)^.25. Following the same progression, a rank 1 skill would require 1,448,000 points to reach level 6 and 8,192,000 points to reach level seven.
For example, letÆs say you want to train Caldari Battleship to level 7. This is a rank 8 skill, so level 7 would require 65,536,000 points and take the average guy 3 to 4 years to train! WouldnÆt that be cool?
I canÆt wait to hear your reaction to this conceptà 
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Inen
Minmatar
OLE Mining Corp
Miners With Attitude
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Posted - 2006.10.21 20:07:00 -
[2]
Hahahaha first thing I thought was CCP taking all ships that need level V skills and changing them to level VII:
"Cool, I want to fly a Command Ship. Okay, open up EVEmon, find command ship, choose add skills to queue... and... ... ...?"
Hmmm well, instead of learning how to fly a command ship... I can learn to be a doctor and a lawyer
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Carnye Dubro
Caldari
Shock and Awe
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Posted - 2006.10.21 20:33:00 -
[3]
<sniffs the Doctor's cup to see what he's been drinking...>
You're saying you want to train 65M points for another 10% RoF and 20% cruise and Torp Velocity? lol
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AKULA UrQuan
Caldari
STK Scientific
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.21 20:46:00 -
[4]
We could at least be able to get a freighter to break 1M M3 this way.....course most of us will be dead from old age first. 
 Originally by: Wrangler
Win ME is more a some sort of virus than a OS..
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Tripoli
XenTech
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Posted - 2006.10.21 20:47:00 -
[5]
I am all about the level 7 learning skills. 
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294 of 315 skills trained. |
Imechal Ravpeim
Amarr
International Multi-Player Consortium
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.10.22 09:24:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Imechal Ravpeim on 22/10/2006 09:24:38
Had an idea similiar to this... exact same one actually but only to level 6. Seven is beyond crazy, it'd take a whole career for anything but a rank 1 skill.
Tripoli, Wouldn't that mean the rank 1 learnings to level 6 would take longer than the advanced to 5? I saw your topic about the advanced to level five and saw you got a number like 1330 days? That'd made it at least 2000 for the rank one level sixes
I think it'd just be a neat little addition, but don't make 6 required for anything or put that ugly space on all the level fived skills.
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Sebroth
FinFleet
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.22 09:53:00 -
[7]
plz plz make it so...
my minmatar ships with dual dps bonus will rock 
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Never knock on Death's door; ring the doorbell and run (he hates that) |
Janus Ovellian
Minmatar
Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.10.22 15:43:00 -
[8]
As crazy as it sounds I'm all for it. Specialisation is something thats relatively hard to achieve when everyone can train any skill (though that's not a bad thing).
But giving those crazy people who want to be the absolute leaders in any given fields the option to push ahead by just that extra 5% or so, with very obvious time drawbacks to doing so, is a great idea. The 5 tier diminishing returns system, as you say, doesn't really allow this degree of specialisation.
Some skills would very obviously be high priority candidates for level 6/7 - engineering, electronics, et cetera - and getting level 5 adv learning skills might just suddenly seem like a much better idea to a whole bunch of people, when you are now saving potentially weeks off the highest end level 7 skills.
It might be a little depressing to suddenly see an extra hole (or two) on your skill sheet past those level 5 though. Some sort of UI trick like changing the colour of all 5 of those boxes to yellow for skills at level 6, and red for level 7 might be nice. To make them stand out as that bit more impressive. It's all about bragging rights. :D
Personally I'd love to crank my shields into overdrive. And squeeze every last ounce of destruction out of my guns... and... and... <drools all over keyboard>
Interesting times await... |
Dr Caymus
Gallente
Applied Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2006.10.23 00:19:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Dr Caymus on 23/10/2006 00:23:07
Edited by: Dr Caymus on 23/10/2006 00:22:41
Level 7 may be way over the top, as Imechal says, but I think you'd have to throw it in to get to the point where the skill system is virtually "open ended". Level 6 would be a stretch, but a lot of people would do that. L6 Battleship, for example, would run 11.6 million points and take 6 or 7 months for a well-learned guy to get. However, achieving Level 7 in a meaningful skill would be a most exclusive achievement .
Inen gives rise to a potential concern with respect to prerequisites. I wouldnÆt change current prerequisites. A level 5 prerequisite would stay at level 5. I like JanusÆs term: these are ôoverdriveö levels.
Of course, the range of effect of some skills might need to be adjusted a bit. It should not be possible, for example, for a builder with Level 7 Production Efficiency and Level 7 Scrapmetal Processing to build stuff, then turn around and reprocess it for more minerals than the original build requirements.
TripÆs probably already calculated this, but itÆd take around 10 years (give or take a few years) to train all of the basic and advanced learning skills to level 7. But if you did, youÆd be earning an extra 3.4 million skill points per year for the time investment 
Is this outrageous? Of course! What am I drinking? Well, right now, IÆm working on a Kenwood Sauvignon Blanc (Sonoma, 2005). But hey, this game is good enough to be around for another 20 years or moreàso why not go for this?
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Veetor
Gallente
Acme Manufacturing
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Posted - 2006.10.23 00:54:00 -
[10]
Just give bonuses to the skilz plyrs actually USE. So you trained on rails but dont use them? Then your competant....Use them all the time and you get better.
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Soren
Caldari
PAK
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Posted - 2006.10.23 00:55:00 -
[11]
I've suggested training past level 5 before....
shutdown...
☠-->-->--
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Cipher7
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2006.10.23 01:57:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Cipher7 on 23/10/2006 01:57:04
zzzz another post worthy of the WoW forums.
What the heck is going on around here lately?
All I hear is whining from bored people to change parts of the game that they personally dislike.
Yes Dr Caymus, we know you have 50 bazillion skillpoints and wish there was BS level 9 so you can make the rest of us feel like a bunch of noobs.
Enlarge your e-peen if you must but just remember.
No matter how long you've been playing Eve, I can still pwn you in BF2.
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Dr Caymus
Gallente
Applied Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2006.10.23 04:23:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Cipher7
Edited by: Cipher7 on 23/10/2006 01:57:04
zzzz another post worthy of the WoW forums.
What the heck is going on around here lately?
All I hear is whining from bored people to change parts of the game that they personally dislike.
Yes Dr Caymus, we know you have 50 bazillion skillpoints and wish there was BS level 9 so you can make the rest of us feel like a bunch of noobs.
Enlarge your e-peen if you must but just remember.
No matter how long you've been playing Eve, I can still pwn you in BF2.
Gee whiz, Eddie...the only whining here seems to be coming from you...
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Acerus Malum
Encina Technologies
Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.10.23 07:33:00 -
[14]
I like the idea of the "endless levels of diminishing return" but I don't think it would work well with the current progression in training times. If we turned skill training on its head and said that each skill level would cost the same number of skill points, but would grant worse bonuses as the level increased, then it might be more desirable.
I think that given the current situation of training times spiralling out of control, the idea of endless specialization is more of a toy for the ancient players with maxed skill categories whose pride prevents them from branching into, say, industry; rather than an idea that your average Joe, who is an otherwise dedicated gunnery specialist, might entertain.
A month for 0.5% in Small Projectile damage is a lot easier to stomach than X months for a full level's worth, I think.
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Jaele Tha
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Posted - 2006.10.23 08:23:00 -
[15]
omg... im absolutely NOT for that.
Training a skill for about 30 days already is long (enough) for me.
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Sorry, no sig... |
Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.23 11:03:00 -
[16]
HAC lvl 7, here comes Gariuys... I think it would be awesome. True specialists, and it will mean vets will have something ridiculous to train for, instead of having to branch out like it is now. ( not only are my HAC/field command ship skills maxed, but so are engineering, electronics, gunnery and drones... with HAC lvl 5, I'd have to choose... )
Beautiful idea.
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Janus Ovellian
Minmatar
Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.10.23 13:43:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Veetor
Just give bonuses to the skilz plyrs actually USE. So you trained on rails but dont use them? Then your competant....Use them all the time and you get better.
Skill training used to work a lot like this - except obviously still capped at level 5 - but the system was abused.
Originally by: Gariuys
HAC lvl 7, here comes Gariuys... I think it would be awesome. True specialists, and it will mean vets will have something ridiculous to train for, instead of having to branch out like it is now. ( not only are my HAC/field command ship skills maxed, but so are engineering, electronics, gunnery and drones... with HAC lvl 5, I'd have to choose... )
I appreciate your dilemma, even though I still have a way to go before I turn all of my 4's into 5's. But when you are a dedicated [ship-type] pilot this situation is kind of difficult to avoid. You just train other skills for the sake of training something. When in actual fact you aren't all that likely to ever use them. The 6's and 7's just serve to give you that extra edge over the average part-time cruiser pilots.
Interesting times await... |
Emo Jelli
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Posted - 2006.10.23 22:21:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Emo Jelli on 23/10/2006 22:21:17
Why arbitrarily stop at L7? L10 makes more sense.
Anyways higher ranked Advanced skills with sufficient pre-requisites is a much more player friendly and sensible solution.
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Hakera
Anari Higard
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Posted - 2006.10.23 22:40:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Hakera on 23/10/2006 22:40:53
hmm following the current system/ranks would indeed lead to harsh lvl 7 training times.
Perhaps propose an advanced version of relevent skills with significant pre-requistes which could be rank 10+ skills might be better?
sorting out their bonus ofc may be a challenge as you get increasing diminishing returns very significantly there.
My opinion would indeed be an elite teir of skills with a doubling modifier such as 1,2,4,8,16 as bonus and avg rank of 12 maybe.
For eg:
Advanced Small Projectile Gunnary (rank 10)
4% dmg per level
req: small projectile specialisation V
research V
gunnary V
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AltanBei
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Posted - 2006.10.24 04:59:00 -
[20]
Maybe if lvl 6 or 7 skills(super-specialization) won't need anything else then just some hard special mission(s) to complete and as other requirements some skills must be lvl 5 ( other then just the one you train for 6+).In other words would be something nice to train some skills that you wouldnt have had considered in doing them up to 5.All it can developed into more complex ideea, just starting from this basic 1.
Sorry for the bad english, eng ain't my nativ language.
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Eilie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.10.24 05:12:00 -
[21]
Level 6 and 7 skills would be great... but the devs dont read this forum, you have to post it in the idea forum. 
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Makaera Koshito
Einherjar Rising
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.10.24 22:32:00 -
[22]
Pretty good idea, if the training time had a good tradeoff with what you got for it. As it is, there are some skills that I have zero desire to train to level five simply because the 5% or 2% or whatever is just not worth the time it would take to get there, like High Speed Maneuvering 5 or Assault Ships 5.
Make Levels 6-8 have something special to be attained, and I'm sure that some folks would do it. But there's no way I would spend 7-8 months on just a 5% increase of something. Make it like a 30% increase and maybe.
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Dr Caymus
Gallente
Applied Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2006.10.25 04:31:00 -
[23]
I, too, hope for new, high-ranking, advanced skills with extensive prerequisites that will extend and enhance specialized career paths in the game. That is certainly the track that CCP is on and I'm sure we'll see this. Will these new skills come quickly enough? Many players that wish to specialize are runing out of things to train.
The idea with L6 and L7 is to push perfection way out of reach...make it extremely rare, if not impossible. Something only a true specialist might pursue, and even then only with a few key skills within his or her chosen area of expertise.
And, of course, nobody would have to train L6 or L7. Prerequisites for advanced skills would be capped at L5. It would be very much like the extensive debate that has carried on over learning and advanced learning skills...how far does one train the learning skils initially?...is it ever worth training advanced learing skills to L5?...Imagine the same dilemma with all skills
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Tripoli
XenTech
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Posted - 2006.10.25 05:28:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Dr Caymus
...Imagine the same dilemma with all skills
Yes, I'm going to set up my EVE account so my ancestors can take it over when I pass away. 
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294 of 315 skills trained. |
Ralitge boyter
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.10.25 08:30:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Dr Caymus
I, too, hope for new, high-ranking, advanced skills with extensive prerequisites that will extend and enhance specialized career paths in the game. That is certainly the track that CCP is on and I'm sure we'll see this. Will these new skills come quickly enough? Many players that wish to specialize are runing out of things to train.
The idea with L6 and L7 is to push perfection way out of reach...make it extremely rare, if not impossible. Something only a true specialist might pursue, and even then only with a few key skills within his or her chosen area of expertise.
And, of course, nobody would have to train L6 or L7. Prerequisites for advanced skills would be capped at L5. It would be very much like the extensive debate that has carried on over learning and advanced learning skills...how far does one train the learning skils initially?...is it ever worth training advanced learing skills to L5?...Imagine the same dilemma with all skills
You know I think you are on to something here... Though I think that not a single person would be silly enough to train any skill higher then rank 3 to level 7 (Ok, the odd learning skill lover might just do it )
I do fear the balancing implications this would bring. I guess more skills would be a better solution with less tricky balancing required. Bringing a extra 1% per skill level to the table in most cases will not upset the balance to much. I think that not just general ship type, but ship specific skills should be introduced adding minimal gains which will give the specialist just that little extra. This way the skill tree would grow even further but it would give the older players something to look forward to and the specialist something to work towards.
Due to the no max skill points setup as long as the game keeps going people will eventualy have to move away from specilization. As they will eventualy be the best in their choose field and will have to branch out to other chalenges. As due to balancing issues and considerations towards new players CCP can not for ever keep on adding new skills.
Level 6 and 7 might be a solution but it will eventualy cause to many balancing headaches for CCP to add this I fear.
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Should you disagree with me, well I guess that is because I disagree with you. If you have a problem with that please feel free not to tell me. |
Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.25 10:46:00 -
[26]
Doctor Caymus has run out of Int / Mem skills to train
Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori |
Benco97
Gallente
Fedo Appreciation Group
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Posted - 2006.10.25 11:33:00 -
[27]
I want this to be honest, there is less specialisation in Eve than most think. Perhaps change it though so that you get gradual returns BETWEEN levels so that for all the time you're training BS level 7 you are improving fractionally instead of *nothing...wait...wait...wait..wait...wait... Big bonus* it should be "little bonus...little bonus...little bonus.. etc* oh maybe i'm rambling..
Head of the Fedo Appreciation Group (FAG) and Registered Fedo breeder (Sig kindly supplied by Zurtur) |
Vitruvia
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Posted - 2006.10.25 12:55:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Emo Jelli
Edited by: Emo Jelli on 23/10/2006 22:21:17
Why arbitrarily stop at L7? L10 makes more sense.
Ten? Where can you go from there? Where? Nowhere. Put it up to eleven.
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Mike Yagon
Minmatar
The Nest
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.10.25 14:01:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Vitruvia
Originally by: Emo Jelli
Edited by: Emo Jelli on 23/10/2006 22:21:17
Why arbitrarily stop at L7? L10 makes more sense.
Ten? Where can you go from there? Where? Nowhere. Put it up to eleven.
Pfft, why stop there? Unlimited levels! Bwahahaha!
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In Carebear We Trust |
Shoele Lialos
Gallente
Elite United Corp
Antigo Dominion
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Posted - 2006.10.25 18:04:00 -
[30]
Imma train Logistics to VII and actually regain cap in my Oneiros by repping with it!
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