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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
211
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 18:36:00 -
[31] - Quote
"Those FiS expansions you're talking about are a result of this focus"
based on how much they got done in 4 weeks with 120 less people working at ccp, I 100% disagree with you.
and no, the bitching about incarna was due to it being utter **** release of something not ready to be released by fools.
how can "stole resources away from other development;" be true when red moon rising was made by 20 devs. |

Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 18:41:00 -
[32] - Quote
PirateSarge wrote:I can't get over the constant whining I was hearing about Incarna that I cannot fathom the facepalms I'm doing. No, the micro-transactions stuff that's been around forever I can understand, but they are not forcing you to buy them.
What I can't comprehend is the bitchiness and whining about the new features of Incarna such as the walk in stations, captains quarters and interactions that I found intriguing. I don't want to be ******* cooped up in my ship all the time even in station. And I always like immersion, as if my character is alive and moving rather than being a static frozen pic in the top left corner of my gaming screen.
I liked the art design, the graphics and construction of the character. A character that makes me feel as if he's really alive and involved in the world of EVE instead of just hold up in a ship. But why is it that people have to complain over simple trivial things like that?
Obviously either you are a troll or was away from the game for a lenght of the time. You got many of your facts incorrect. Also you are missing A LOT of stuff that happened.
I am not gonna bother to enlighten you cos nobody likes a whiner that accuses people without even having all the facts.
so there    |

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
211
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 18:43:00 -
[33] - Quote
Takseen wrote:MotherMoon wrote: my point is the opportunity cost. has nothing to do wtih making WiS. it's the the opportunity cost of making ****** FiS expansions based around content no one asked for!
Eh? People had been asking for -sleeper style smart and dangerous rats in more accessible locations -rewarding group only content for aaaaaages.. Incursion delivered.
Right, but more features without finishing the features in the last 5 expansions just leaves more un finished content.
you honestly think the reason no one ever sat down and redid the numbers on hybrids is because walking in stations took up too much time to make? When most people working on walking in stations weren't even on the eve teams? it was carbon and WoD?
no, they didn't do it because they get attracted to adding shiny new features over actully polishing and finishing content.
I've been here for 7 years. CCP getting ADHD and making new features right after saying "this is just part one of the this new feature, with the basics in place we can start making even more content for it, faster and more quickly"
they just forget about it to make something new.
and like i already said. Yeah I liked incursions. But that doesn't mean they should of done it when they did. They should announce a feature, and then keep a team on it, even if it takes years to finish.
where are our treaties ccp?
Where is our 5th sub system?
So on. |

Vallek Arkonnis
Cosmic Cimmerians The G0dfathers
10
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 18:50:00 -
[34] - Quote
MotherMoon wrote: based on how much they got done in 4 weeks with 120 less people working at ccp, I 100% disagree with you.
I'm gonna have to disagree with this on one aspect; tweaking mechanics takes less work than integrating carbon, creating a lot of new models, along with all of the testing involved. We got Tier 3 BC's, true. A lot of ships were retextured, true. The nebulae existed since at least the "I was there" trailer, they just weren't implemented yet.
|

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
1860
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 18:54:00 -
[35] - Quote
MotherMoon wrote:and no, the bitching about incarna was due to it being utter **** release of something not ready to be released by fools. Seeing as how the bitching began long before thatGǪ no. It had to do with how much time WiS itself took up and how little FiS content was produced as a result. The end result just showed that the cost was even higher than people had imagined.
Quote:how can "stole resources away from other development;" be true when red moon rising was made by 20 devs. No, you're not that stupid. Try again, and come up with a proper question this time. 
Quote:you honestly think the reason no one ever sat down and redid the numbers on hybrids is because walking in stations took up too much time to make? When most people working on walking in stations weren't even on the eve teams? Aside from the fact that many of those people were indeed drawn from EVE teams, how do you think the team setup would have looked if WiS hadn't been made the primary focus? Go back and look at the old :18 months: devblogs where they list the allocation of resources.
Quote:where are our treaties ccp? Where is our 5th sub system? Put aside to focus on WiS. You know, one of the opportunities that weren't afforded due to the cost of making Incarna. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |

Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
142
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 18:59:00 -
[36] - Quote
MotherMoon wrote: see I wouldn't say say years, since the newest build of CQ runs fine, and looks fine.
A single player environment consisting of one room where nothing happens, that runs at double-digit FPS on top of the line video cards is certainly NOT "fine". And it took years to build. What does that tell you about their multiplayer engine/environments?
MotherMoon wrote:Releasing a beta prototype build of a single room is insulting. and in no way shows what an engine is able to run on. it was an unfinished piece of ****. Exactly. |

Trainwreck McGee
Ghost Ship Inc.
144
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 19:01:00 -
[37] - Quote
nobody cares go away CCP Trainwreck - Weekend Custodial Engineer / CCP Necrogoats foot stool |

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
211
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 19:03:00 -
[38] - Quote
Vallek Arkonnis wrote:MotherMoon wrote: based on how much they got done in 4 weeks with 120 less people working at ccp, I 100% disagree with you.
I'm gonna have to disagree with this on one aspect; tweaking mechanics takes less work than integrating carbon, creating a lot of new models, along with all of the testing involved. We got Tier 3 BC's, true. A lot of ships were retextured, true. The nebulae existed since at least the "I was there" trailer, they just weren't implemented yet.
right but all those things you mentioned. Like the new models, carbon, the nebula and the retextured ships, would of been done this expansion anyways. since those have all been in development for a year or so. In other words they were being made at the same time as WiS.
Oh wait I thought making WiS in the last year made it so they couldn't do anything for FiS?
oddly all those features you mentioned give a stronger defense to the view point that incarna development didn't hold back major FiS feature development.
the onyl thing that changed from what we would of gotten this winter was instead of WiS, we got tweaking mechanics, which as you put. takes less work than major features.
It's a pretty well know fact that major features that come out of CCP have been in the pipeline for at least a year. |

Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
492
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 19:06:00 -
[39] - Quote
Lil Nippy wrote:Well lets see...
- Got rid of station spinning
- Added the worst feature to probably ever be implimented into this game, "station" walking (a 10x10 prison cell with a flat screen)
- A micro transaction store for doll clothes that only you can see...fail
- Dozens of performance issues for laptops and ATI users
- Disresepectful dev blogs and newsletters
- Was hyped up to be an immense, spectacular expansion but added no new content to the game whatsoever outside of the prison cell
Incarna is not really 'over' yet. Incarna could still very well have been the nail in the coffin for EVE. I rarely see more than 35k online when it used to regularly be 40-50K pre Incarna, only time will tell if CCP can bounce back from it.
Issue 1 fixed
Issue 2 Not fixed - was slated to be an expansion feature but no more, it may come out 1 new room at a time now.
Issue 3 Fixed-ish other people can now oogle your clothing selection.
Issue 4 Work in progress after all its an engine they mostly had to peice together.
Issue 5 Internal news letters are inhouse forum arguments, no different from us players with that one idiot always asking for a name change and the 99% of us shoving the word no though in his nose and out of his ears. Followed by the media not showing the whole picture.
Blogs put out however are not that excusable and delay in explaintions the buttoning up and response was also mishandeled which is why the old community management took a massive employee hit.
The largest employee hit was WoD, not incarna teams they're still onboard last time I checked to create more interior assests for stations.
Carbonization of eveias now econized as the largest hit in development time in eve which is why most of the new in space features are things that where entirely new modules (PI for example) (WH for anotehr) instead of old module rewrites.
However it was Incarna that ate the blame at first.
Luckily Incarna foundation is laid down adding to it should be very simple as adding a new ship or rewriting mining asteriods.
|

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
124
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 19:06:00 -
[40] - Quote
I thought that the "Hurr, I've been hiding in a cave on mars with my head in a bucket of grease for the last few months durr idk why ur all so mad about captains quarters hurr." threads died out months ago.
Maybe not. |

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
211
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 19:09:00 -
[41] - Quote
Razin wrote:MotherMoon wrote: see I wouldn't say say years, since the newest build of CQ runs fine, and looks fine.
A single player environment consisting of one room where nothing happens, that runs at double-digit FPS on top of the line video cards is certainly NOT "fine". And it took years to build. What does that tell you about their multiplayer engine/environments? MotherMoon wrote:Releasing a beta prototype build of a single room is insulting. and in no way shows what an engine is able to run on. it was an unfinished piece of ****. Exactly.
agreed, but pointing out that i get double the fps with this expansion in CQ.
It wasn't ready, is not excuse to blame it for why eve has had feature abandonment for years now. WiS did not hold back work on FW for example.
it just needed to be postposed until it was feature complete. I work in the games industry. some times it sucks that after 2 years all you have a prototype, but that's how it works. Sometimes an investor just has to bite the bullet and give you one more year.
It's also no reason to scrap all the work that was done. The 120 people they fired were basically the WiS team.
Now if Tippa could connect one and two. logic would seem to say that the amount of development resources being used to make FiS now, is the same as when WiS and FiS were being made at the same time.
Making WiS/WoD, Dust514, and eve all at the same time with one game bring in money, was stupid, and dumb. One at a time CCP.
But right now eve doesn't have more devs than ever. In fact dust 514 has MORE devs than ever before, and if anything there are LESS devs now working on eve.
The only point being WiS is not to blame for bad FiS content over the last 3/4 expansions. |

Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
492
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 19:11:00 -
[42] - Quote
Yeah Shooting in Face featuers are high on thier cooking list now. expect the next eve expansion to be more paper cuts and smaller refinements.
|

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
211
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 19:14:00 -
[43] - Quote
Tippia don't ignore the question.
How many devs were making red moon rising. How much content did said devs make?
if the same number of devs are making content now, how does hiring a NEW SEPARATE TEAM of devs, hurt what the original group of 20 can produce.
it's not a dumb question your just blinded to the issues with your tunnel vision. |

AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance
49
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 19:20:00 -
[44] - Quote
I can't get over the constant whining I am hearing from paste-eating cowards and fanbois about people like me who are solely responsible for all the good stuff you are enjoying in the latest expansion.
Since you didn't have the balls to stand up to CCP when the summer of rage was going on and were happy to let them continue neglecting EVE, as I said back then, now that we bitter vets have saved hangars, "I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very hangar I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way." |

Alara IonStorm
RvB - BLUE Republic
522
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 19:27:00 -
[45] - Quote
My post in that thread.
Alara IonStorm wrote:Leans Back, Enjoys Show. And by God I was right that was damn entertaining.
|

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
1860
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 19:27:00 -
[46] - Quote
MotherMoon wrote:Tippia don't ignore the question. Since it is not relevant to the topic, I most certainly will.
Instead, I'm going to ask you this: why can you not conceive of the notion that people look at the numbers GÇö 70 developers for WiS + 20 developers for FiS GÇö and then think to themselves GÇ£hey, maybe those 20 could use a bit of helpGǪ in fact, why the hell is there only 20 people working on that and nearly four times as many working on Incarna?!GÇ¥? Why is it so hard for you to believe that people are/were raging about this allocation of resources and that they would have preferred to see more (if not all) of those people woking on FiS?
In short: why are you so absolutely determined that the 70/20 allocation must be seen as given, and that the skew must absolutely not be seen as, oh, 25 people being GÇ£stolenGÇ¥ from FiS (giving a 45/45 split instead), thus incurring an opportunity cost in terms of FiS features not being worked on?
Quote:how does hiring a NEW SEPARATE TEAM of devs, hurt what the original group of 20 can produce. Ok, so you still haven't understood the concept of opportunity cost. Jeez. 
The actual question is: how does hiring a new separate team of devs and not letting them work on FiS hurt the production of FiS features? Well, obviously, it means that FiS is not getting as many resources as it could have been given; fewer FiS features are given dev time than what is possible; an opportunity to work on FiS is missed. We incur a FiS-feature opportunity cost. And that is what people have been bitching about for, oh, the last two years. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |

yumike
Eve of Madness
15
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 19:27:00 -
[47] - Quote
MotherMoon wrote:Tippa that's bs. all of the art is allready done for it.
It's basically a finished feature, it just needs a 1 or 2 months and it would be done the way they promised.
The cost has allready been done, for 3 years. Don't waste the money you spent, release the *****. Without pulling FiS features.
How do you try telling tippia that it's B S, then agree that they wasted 3 years on it ?
"Your right, but your wrong"?
What the.
And tippia is right. |

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
211
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 19:30:00 -
[48] - Quote
AkJon Ferguson wrote:I can't get over the constant whining I am hearing from paste-eating cowards and fanbois about people like me who are solely responsible for all the good stuff you are enjoying in the latest expansion. Since you didn't have the balls to stand up to CCP when the summer of rage was going on and were happy to let them continue neglecting EVE, as I said back then, now that we bitter vets have saved hangars, "I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very hangar I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way."
BS, i was there in the summer of rage. but for me it was a year before you ever stood up to face CCP.
And this summer was no different. It's not a whine about Wis, it's a whine about releasing unfinished content, feature abandonment, and ignoring the playerbase.
What came out this expansion should of came out years ago. it just took us forcing ccp to see the way they were going was bad and we weren't going to take it.
I am fully in support of this expansion, and the next one going back and finishing unfinished expansions. WiS has to be put on hold because of the non-WiS devs leaving large parts of the game unfinished and neglected. |

Psychophantic
173
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 19:35:00 -
[49] - Quote
Establishments.
That is all. |

Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
492
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 19:47:00 -
[50] - Quote
Walking in Stations biggest hurdels was getting it to work then making it fun.
Well its working for now and getting better.
Now the ultimate question is...
How to make it fun?
This will be by far the hardest feature to impliment in eve is making walking in stations a desirable action to engage in every so often.
Should there be PVP? What type? Economy Infrastructure Stores stuff to do in stations? UI interfaces prices profitability?
I have mine on because I do have an easily bored mind which consideres the inquaters TV enough of a distraction while I update my market orders. Beyond that I have no other real reason to be in a station.
Ultimately I would have to call Carbonization of Eve one of the largest undertakings of any mmo I ever heard of. It would be like patching everquest 1 into everquest 2 instead of making it a seperate game. Its also where I suscpect where most of the eve core teams was working on.
The only real resources Walking in station ate from eve core teams was probably the Networking team and Technical Artisans who are better at tweaking shadows and lights and reducing FPS requirements. For the network side I know that the Sol Node is not on the same one as the "terra" (since I dont know the name of it Ill call it that its opposite enough) nodes so conversations must be had between the two in order for it to work better. Which is why TTA (time to action) was so low when Incarna first came out but now TTA is faster than the loading of the envrionment and I hope that TTA will eventually match static/regular hangers.
I do know that FW improvements are on the horizion now, somone has datamined out new navy battleships and battlecruisers (a first?) and there are talks about letting allaicnes finally join up. The FW wars are about to get real serious business soon enough.
|

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
211
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 19:48:00 -
[51] - Quote
yumike wrote:MotherMoon wrote:Tippa that's bs. all of the art is allready done for it.
It's basically a finished feature, it just needs a 1 or 2 months and it would be done the way they promised.
The cost has allready been done, for 3 years. Don't waste the money you spent, release the *****. Without pulling FiS features. How do you try telling tippia that it's B S, then agree that they wasted 3 years on it ? "Your right, but your wrong"? What the. And tippia is right.
1st off I've been posting on the forum for 7 year your alt doesn't shock me.
2nd I'm saying that if they scrap the whole thing now, they WILL HAVE wasted those 3 years. learn to read kthxbye
3rd it's BS that WiS is the reason for feature abandon over the past 3 years. Because lots of other non FiS features have been released that were not WiS. |

Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
142
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 19:52:00 -
[52] - Quote
Nova Fox wrote:Walking in Stations biggest hurdels was getting it to work then making it fun. The understatement of this thread.
Nova Fox wrote:Well its working for now and getting better.
There is no evidence that this is so. All we currently have are single player CQs (that are still in beta state to boot). |

Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
492
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 19:56:00 -
[53] - Quote
[Nova Fox wrote:Well its working for now and getting better.
There is no evidence that this is so. All we currently have are single player CQs (that are still in beta state to boot).[/quote]
My FPS on my nvidia for instation is now 24 instead 12 fps. So they did something, Also my character looks alot better than he used to thanks to selectable shader options.
Time to action times are cut down on my computer to about 7 seconds almost the same as if I where to dock into hanger view. Time to load is about 10 seconds much better than the previous 30 second load times.
I dont know why you are still using AMD video cards.
|

Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
142
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 20:06:00 -
[54] - Quote
Nova Fox wrote: My FPS on my nvidia for instation is now 24 instead 12 fps. So they did something, Also my character looks alot better than he used to thanks to selectable shader options.
Time to action times are cut down on my computer to about 7 seconds almost the same as if I where to dock into hanger view. Time to load is about 10 seconds much better than the previous 30 second load times.
I dont know why you are still using AMD video cards.
I agree that the singleplayer CQs are getting better both visually and performance wise.
However you misunderstand what WIS is. It is a MUTLIPLAYER avatar-based game that allows inter-player interaction inside the station interiors. Sort of like the 'spaceship game' except inside and with walking chars (sans the shooting at each other, at first). This requires much much more than pretty graphics. And we have absolutely no evidence that any of that even exists. |

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
211
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 20:18:00 -
[55] - Quote
Razin wrote:Nova Fox wrote: My FPS on my nvidia for instation is now 24 instead 12 fps. So they did something, Also my character looks alot better than he used to thanks to selectable shader options.
Time to action times are cut down on my computer to about 7 seconds almost the same as if I where to dock into hanger view. Time to load is about 10 seconds much better than the previous 30 second load times.
I dont know why you are still using AMD video cards.
I agree that the singleplayer CQs are getting better both visually and performance wise. However you misunderstand what WIS is. It is a MUTLIPLAYER avatar-based game that allows inter-player interaction inside the station interiors. Sort of like the 'spaceship game' except inside and with walking chars (sans the shooting at each other, at first). This requires much much more than pretty graphics. And we have absolutely no evidence that any of that even exists.
well other than fanfest 2008 when a bunch of us got to play it.
seriously, we played it already, 3 years ago. The mind boggles. |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
1860
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 20:21:00 -
[56] - Quote
MotherMoon wrote:well other than fanfest 2008 when a bunch of us got to play it.
seriously, we played it already, 3 years ago. The mind boggles. Nah. What boggles the mind is why they scrapped it and started overGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |

Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
142
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 20:25:00 -
[57] - Quote
MotherMoon wrote:Razin wrote:
However you misunderstand what WIS is. It is a MUTLIPLAYER avatar-based game that allows inter-player interaction inside the station interiors. Sort of like the 'spaceship game' except inside and with walking chars (sans the shooting at each other, at first). This requires much much more than pretty graphics. And we have absolutely no evidence that any of that even exists.
well other than fanfest 2008 when a bunch of us got to play it. Could you describe the multiplayer features of that demo and which of those you had a chance to try? |

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
211
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 20:25:00 -
[58] - Quote
Tippia wrote:MotherMoon wrote:well other than fanfest 2008 when a bunch of us got to play it.
seriously, we played it already, 3 years ago. The mind boggles. Nah. What boggles the mind is why they scrapped it and started overGǪ
that's basically what i said.... we really do work on separate wavelengths don't we. When we agree you're still like, Nope, your wrong.
The features I got to try were, seeing multiple avatars, walking *was slooooow, needed more travel options"
the awesome board game with a UI that you could click from any angle. It was amazing. Able to bet ships and isk and contracts.
They even had a captains quarter lol.
and it was awesome. limited, but honestly enough for me if it was the 1st release. |

Kuronaga
Black Snake Syndicate
15
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 20:42:00 -
[59] - Quote
ccp expansions have always been minimalistic and unfinished. Aprocrypha was the only thing that even seemed to resemble an expansion any other company would have released.
people who blame it on incarna clearly know nothing about ccp.
the bitching may be about opportunity cost or whatever the hell else you wanna call it, but ccp has done this crap from the dawn of time and people are just in denial about it.
Also, the reason you two can't agree on a damn thing is because Huang is tryin to make the greater point, and Tippia is busy back at square one trying to argue little technicalities cause he can't stand losing an argument. You should know by now his personality has always been about winning an argument even at the cost of being right. That's why he comes across as halfways intelligent, he take any losing argument and come out a winner by turning the subject to some mundane detail nobody gives a damn about when everybody else has already moved on.
Later on, of course, he will eventually catch up and agree with what you said, if only to make it look like his path of argument lead to the correct conclusion.
In short, don't feed the Tippia. |

Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
142
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 20:59:00 -
[60] - Quote
MotherMoon wrote:
The features I got to try were, seeing multiple avatars, walking *was slooooow, needed more travel options"
the awesome board game with a UI that you could click from any angle. It was amazing. Able to bet ships and isk and contracts.
They even had a captains quarter lol.
and it was awesome. limited, but honestly enough for me if it was the 1st release.
How many avatars? Were they other players or NPCs? How could you tell? How was collision avoidance handled? Was there anything besides the board game to interact with? Voice?
Whatever the answers, what we saw on the fanfest videos at the time looked like a mockup demonstration, a very early alpha. The fact that it was scrapped isn't necessarily a bad thing, it may actually mean that that tech was a dead end.
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