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Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:47:00 - [31] Edited by: Ernest Graefenberg on 22/10/2006 23:47:51 Avoidance is simply too easy particularly with scouts, and combat itself has too few player-involved avoidance measures (and those that do exist have totally unnecessary hardcounters - ie Huginns/Rapiers of goddamn death). It's gotten to the point where the most fun way of getting a good fight I can think of is a freakin' login-trap :/ In other words, if fighting outnumbered weren't a question of getting ECMed, tackled by someones obnoxious frigate or 40km Fleeting Webber and subsequently focusfired in a few seconds it would actually be quite interesting. As it stands, fighting outnumbered is just that. A contest to see how long you can stay a step ahead of the bait-trap of superdeath. It's going to catch you someday, and there's not a thing you're going to be able to do moving at 1% of your maxspeed and permajammed.
Liklin Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:54:00 - [32] Originally by: Buxaroo Originally by: LaCoHa Edited by: LaCoHa on 22/10/2006 22:17:13 Originally by: KnightCrawler People are being way to cautious when deciding to pvp or not and forgetting that this is a game and its meant to be enjoyed. That was before 250 million dollar average hac prices. Aint that the $%^& truth. Reason why I have been going out in my scorpion in fleet ops instead of my rook which I want to because the scorp is insured and if it goes kaboom, no biggie, just insurance and mods. Guess what? Lost my scorp this morning because I pressed warp and it took 20 seconds for me to start warping and the hostiles torp hit me right before I warped. If I hadn't that lag I would still be in my scorp with it's hypnos jammers Also guess what? The D2 guys also logged for the exact same reason they even said in local that the fight would have to happen later because of the lag. See, that's whats so damn ****y. You don't win battles anymore by strategy or whits or good decisions, but by whoever doesn't get module lag as bad or warps in at the right time. That is what is messing up pvp. If I lost my Cerberus with all its fittings because I wasn't paying attention or jumped into a gatecamp without a scout then thats my mistake. But if I loose my ship because of severe lag then that's the server's fault and not my own. These things have to be fixed pronto. Hell, put off Kali for a month while you guys work on the code or hardware for this because I would rather have a stable server and less lag so that I can actually PLAY the game. I lvoe CCP and this game, and I am always the first cheerleader to step up and give CCP a pat on the back. But this lag is just unbearable. Now I see why people are leaving alliances and big corps because the fleet actions aren't an action anymore. The other day I went to empire to do soem low sec pvp and me and my corp mate ganged up with someone who is ex-BoB and he said the exact same thing: fleet battles suck nowadays. yea couldn't agree more, and then you get blown away waiting in a gate queue lol
infraX Caldari Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:58:00 - [33] Edited by: infraX on 22/10/2006 23:58:29 Originally by: Khetchi This is why pirating is so much fun. Here's a few things every real pirate knows that the corps seem to have forgotten: 1: Cheaper is better. Don't fly what you can't lose. 2: It takes forever to fit a ship. Always have a few ships waiting at your base already fitted and ready to fight. 3: Buying insurance and not getting your ship destroyed is a waste of ISK. Since you have the insurance, might as well fight. 4: You're gonna get your ship destroyed, you're gonna get podded, you're gonna lose ISK... none of that automatically means you lose the fight. 5: Planning, skill, and big brass **s count for more in a fight than ships and/or equipment. 6: If you lose, so what? In a PVP game someone's always gonna lose and no matter how big you are, how skilled you are, or how much you've planned every last detail it just might be you. That's what insurance and clone upgrades are for. 7: Learn to love large scale fleet battles. This means everything bigger than a T1 Cruiser is just sitting and waiting, afraid to move or the other guy will roll over them. So nobody is patrolling their territory. HINT - HINT - BIG **ing HINT. WTS: A clue. Post with your main.
Edhel Eternal Silence Ltd.	Posted - 2006.10.23 00:00:00 - [34] removing (changing local) as a large amount of people might possibly fix this, at least it would limit how well you can tell the enemies numbers. However while this is a game and is meant to be enjoyed, what you are risking is pvp is the isk equivalent of your ship + mods and maybe more accurately the time you spent earning that isk, which is why some people are more cautious than others, so it's understandable that some are now and will continue to be cautious, which is why the local should maybe be nerfed.
prathe Minmatar Omega Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.23 00:10:00 - [35] "pvp is getting lame" no it's just getting too expensive for most loosing 250 mils in a fair fight is okay loosing 250 mils because of jump in lag or CTD is weak you built that ship to fight in it not to get a killmail while your frozen
Laocoon Veto.	Posted - 2006.10.23 00:20:00 - [36] Originally by: Samirol tux is making it so eve is more blobby (hp increase anyone?) sad but so true - Lao Veto. Corp
MMoroz Beach Boys	Posted - 2006.10.23 00:40:00 - [37] I think, that the thing which destroy pvp the most are Capital Ships, more and more people get them and they camp stations and think they are ubber etc... If i jump with 3 friends against 8 ships, it`s hard but still possible to win but if one is carrier what am i supposed to do? Ok i can snipe( boring ). I don`t have solution fot this, CS are fun but maybe too cheap and maybe they should be moved to 0.0 only so if you want you still can have fun in low sec. With Kali coming it will be even more ****** up for two reasons: more people will have them , and nerfing nosferatus and EW will make killing them harder( as i understand energy destabilizers will be nerfed too ).
Kasibee'an Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2006.10.23 01:19:00 - [38] Thought you quit forums twice already?
Breed Love Minmatar Stormriders	Posted - 2006.10.23 01:32:00 - [39] Insane prices are definitely the number 1 reason. What good is insurance for when your fittings cost more than the ship itself. Losing a t2 fitted t1 ship is not that different from losing a hac with modules being this expensive. ------ Originally by: Gazon In any case, the whole affair had one lasting effect: Awarding Stormriders the label of ridiculous drug addicts with a tendency towards utterly foolish actions.
Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.23 01:43:00 - [40] Originally by: Breed Love Insane prices are definitely the number 1 reason. What good is insurance for when your fittings cost more than the ship itself. Losing a t2 fitted t1 ship is not that different from losing a hac with modules being this expensive. The competitive edge will always be expensive, and will always be in the upper bracket of what is expendable income. Prices have nothing to do with the modus operandi for engaging - change prices and the base level for a competitive ship shifts upwards, to the realm that it stays in the same proportion to income / wealth. This is purely a combat mechanical problem (both as far as actual combat and pre-combat goes). Reckless engagements with little cost to oneself are perfectly possible as it stands now, and always will be unless T1 equipment and insurance is removed. The desire to not lose however usually supercedes a groups willingness to create even fights. Which is the way things should be and something that won't change as long as people play with some involvement into the matter. The only problem is avoiding engagements altogether is entirely too simple as it stands, and so is setting up nigh impenetrable defense and unkillable snipers. As a result, we get aforementioned standoffs and a whole lot of baiting involved in getting any engagement to commence :/
Breed Love Minmatar Stormriders	Posted - 2006.10.23 02:20:00 - [41] Originally by: Ernest Graefenberg The competitive edge will always be expensive, and will always be in the upper bracket of what is expendable income. Prices have nothing to do with the modus operandi for engaging - change prices and the base level for a competitive ship shifts upwards, to the realm that it stays in the same proportion to income / wealth. You are just wrong, people will always want to use what their skills allow, if the prices are lowered the "base level" isnt going anywhere. Originally by: Ernest Graefenberg This is purely a combat mechanical problem (both as far as actual combat and pre-combat goes). Reckless engagements with little cost to oneself are perfectly possible as it stands now, and always will be unless T1 equipment and insurance is removed. Its fun to go in fitted with t1 and suicide a few times, but it gets boring and few want to keep doing it. The performance gap between t1 and t2 is so big that die is all you can do in a cheap t1 fitted ship. Originally by: Ernest Graefenberg The desire to not lose however usually supercedes a groups willingness to create even fights. Which is the way things should be and something that won't change as long as people play with some involvement into the matter. The only problem is avoiding engagements altogether is entirely too simple as it stands, and so is setting up nigh impenetrable defense and unkillable snipers. Don't confuse the "desire not to lose" with the "fear of losing" that is taking place today. No one likes to lose, but atm many are really afraid of losing because of all the trouble it takes to replace what they lost, that they would rather not fight if they arent 100% sure of the outcome of the battle. ------ Originally by: Gazon In any case, the whole affair had one lasting effect: Awarding Stormriders the label of ridiculous drug addicts with a tendency towards utterly foolish actions.
Charles Schwab The Charles Schwab Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.23 02:27:00 - [42] CCP has designed into EVE, from day 1, the grim reality that losing your ship presents. It hurts. It's supposed to hurt. That's why most people, it seems, are very wary of engaging other folks in combat without knowing the outcome beforehand, or without a greater purpose (i.e. defending/taking space). This is kind of like in real life, when you are confronted by a robber with a gun, you typically just want to avoid being podded and will act accordingly. It's only natural. ___
Breed Love Minmatar Stormriders	Posted - 2006.10.23 02:32:00 - [43] Originally by: Charles Schwab CCP has designed into EVE, from day 1, the grim reality that losing your ship presents. It hurts. It's supposed to hurt. That's why most people, it seems, are very wary of engaging other folks in combat without knowing the outcome beforehand, or without a greater purpose (i.e. defending/taking space). This is kind of like in real life, when you are confronted by a robber with a gun, you typically just want to avoid being podded and will act accordingly. It's only natural. This is still a game though, and it has to be fun. There is a line between being fun but with losses still hurting, and losses hurting to much that it is not fun anymore, since all you do is grind to replace the stuff and that is boring. ------ Originally by: Gazon In any case, the whole affair had one lasting effect: Awarding Stormriders the label of ridiculous drug addicts with a tendency towards utterly foolish actions.
Christina Vallentine Caldari Tau Ceti Global Production Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.10.23 02:42:00 - [44] People enjoy a good fight. People enjoy pvp, I believe this to be a universal truth. Some more some less. When was the last time you enjoyed jumping into a zone and being insta poded while people screamed at you, "YEAH ***** WE SHOWED YOU". Whack a mole anyone? No sorry. I love pvp. But I will not loose a ship worth 250 Million ISK to a gate camp on the other side of the gate because it's fun. It is not fun. If there was at least a fight involved.. Then it would be fun. As it currently stands, sorry.
BhallSpawn	Posted - 2006.10.23 02:59:00 - [45] Your forgetting the fact that CCP royally screwed us with this super dumb que system I'm surprized half the player base hasn't quit because of it. who wants a fleet battle when you don't even know your gonna make it to the other side of the gate.
Telemicus Thrace Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.10.23 03:10:00 - [46] Originally by: anyname isfine It's easy to agree with a lot of this, but Quote: waiting for the other one to make a move so they will have a strategic advantage. It seems prudent and I would not fly with a commander who isn't looking for every tactical and strategic advantage. Sometimes speed is a tactical advantage. Rush in while everyone is still typing "x Ushra'Khan in abc" and pick off a target. Hit and run is fun. Had a mad little fight a few nights ago, about 14 frigs vs 8 or so BS and a command ship. Most of us left in pods or woke up in a clone bay but it was loadsa fun. I lost a jag but it was worth it seeing a command ship and 2-3 other BS go down. I see a lot of folk flying like they can't afford to lose their ship, I think that is a large part of it. Avoidance tactics also breed blobs. You start out with a couple of guys on the hunt then a target safespots. Then you need to lock down the system until the prober arrives. You may also need more people to cover the other gates. etc etc. The longer you sit around the more people both side tend to collect from passing allies. If you can't kill it, move on. If you can kill or within a bears roar of killing it engage. Decisive action. >> RECRUITING <<
Dominixa Shadows of the Dead Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.23 03:15:00 - [47] http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=338167 How many times has this character changed hands?
Red Ochre	Posted - 2006.10.23 03:47:00 - [48] Originally by: KnightCrawler I have been in eve since 2003 and lately I have seen a problem with medium and large scale pvp. I am Not talking about lag or technicaly problems. People are being way to cautious when deciding to pvp or not and forgetting that this is a game and its meant to be enjoyed. In the last year or so I have seen a disturbing trend. Both fleets/ gangs stay 1 jump away from each other waiting for the other one to make a move so they will have a strategic advantage. A pvp game become a waiting game, both sides will sometimes wait hours for the other to make a move. A lot of the times one side will say screw it and log off or leave. This is a game, people are supposed to have fun, not sit at a safespot or gate for hours at a time waiting so that the side your on will win the fight. I am a very wreckless player and I lose ships more than anyone I know, but I am having a lot of fun doing it. I remember a long time ago people would jump into battle and not worry about losing their ship. I feel that this game is changing for the worst where people dont want to take any risks at all on something thats not real. The whole point of the game is to do stuff that your not able to do in real life, which includes shooting people and blowing people up or getting yourself blown up. I am always told that it doesnt matter who wins as long as everyone has fun. Its seems recently winning is more important than having fun. you...have a problem i will copy a small excerpt from your post, i will make no judgement........ "The whole point of the game is to do stuff that your not able to do in real life, which includes shooting people and blowing people up or getting yourself blown up." i would tell you..."you need jesus!!!" but i am not religeous, sooo, i will just say...............you have issues that need working out.
Karille Lordless Unbrella Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.23 05:21:00 - [49] Originally by: infraX Edited by: infraX on 22/10/2006 23:58:29 Originally by: Khetchi This is why pirating is so much fun. Here's a few things every real pirate knows that the corps seem to have forgotten: 1: Cheaper is better. Don't fly what you can't lose. 2: It takes forever to fit a ship. Always have a few ships waiting at your base already fitted and ready to fight. 3: Buying insurance and not getting your ship destroyed is a waste of ISK. Since you have the insurance, might as well fight. 4: You're gonna get your ship destroyed, you're gonna get podded, you're gonna lose ISK... none of that automatically means you lose the fight. 5: Planning, skill, and big brass **s count for more in a fight than ships and/or equipment. 6: If you lose, so what? In a PVP game someone's always gonna lose and no matter how big you are, how skilled you are, or how much you've planned every last detail it just might be you. That's what insurance and clone upgrades are for. 7: Learn to love large scale fleet battles. This means everything bigger than a T1 Cruiser is just sitting and waiting, afraid to move or the other guy will roll over them. So nobody is patrolling their territory. HINT - HINT - BIG ing HINT. WTS: A clue. Post with your main. there's nothing wrong with 1v1 pvp, only fleet battles are broken. the only reason they happen is because both sides have large numbers. both sides are scared the other side is going to have more people. because of that fear they have to bring more people than the other side. this gets giant blobs of people on both sides, ensuring that most people will die. in short, fleet battles happen because people are scared to lose ships. maybe nodes crashing is [insert your religious entity here]'s way of telling you to stop ***** blobbing. why not go on small raiding parties instead of giant big fleet operations. hang out in groups of two instead of two hundred. that is the answer.
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.10.23 05:30:00 - [50] "People are being way to cautious when deciding to pvp or not and forgetting that this is a game and its meant to be enjoyed." You're right but fun isn;t warping in to get near insta locked from 150 km away and wtfbbq'd instantly. Also fun isn;t grinding level 4 missions or mining or ratting for mega hours to replace the 300+ mill in hardware you go bbq'd by trying to have fun. CCP has been consistently moving pvp the wrong direction in EVE, with the killmail/killstats , allowing the economy to become very overpriced because of the fake limited t2 bpo's, and in general promoting gate cmaping ( which is ultra easy safe way to pvp ) , promoting sniping ( again ultra safe ), so who wants to warp in and get insta owned just because..... I mean for real it isnt even fun dude so i have no idea wtf you're talking about lol. CCP has been lead astray by the so called pvp'ers in EVE who really arent not pvper's they are griefers, and the end result is EVE by catering to people who like to greif is filled with griefers, and most people wanting good pvp have siomply left. So now you primarily got people who like to grief who keep spamming CCP saying keep greifing in and pking while they flame any suggesting and critisms thatpromote good pvp and limit greifing ganking. thus keeping the status quo or making it worse, now you got leagions of weak players who thought pvp was ghreifing and ganking all scared to fight each other because they don;t got sure wins camping a gate, or sniping..... and they sit there staring at each other all afraid to play a battle that the outcome is uncertain...all eagerly awaiting the confrontation to end from boredom so they can get back to gate camping nice safe and coozy.
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2006.10.23 06:28:00 - [51] w00t, after year and + people are also seeing why I said that losing in PvP is "fun". Sniping 4tw and blobs! Yay Unnerf Amarr!Ö "I read somewhere that Kali will be featuring turn-based combat to increase immersion." ¬ Waagaa Ktlehr
Lygos ISS Navy Task Force	Posted - 2006.10.23 06:38:00 - [52] I do not recall a time when blobbing was not lame. I do, however, recall a time when 15 ppl was considered a node crashing blob. What we need are incentives to not blob. Right now, blob=security=preserving resources through fewer engagements and exposures. Also, blobbing means accomplishing something where something entails taking out assets like POS or stations, or just temporary gate control for a freighter or a camp or whatever. Some ideas: -Make POS have distributed defense. Attackers should have to attack multiple locations simultaneously, or at least once a network is in reinforced. Defenders can't blob one source either, or the heavily defended node will weaken offensively with the abuse of undefended nodes. When constellation sovereignty effects are in, we can have real potential for spreading blobs out across nodes. -Engine cores can have deleterious effects when in the same grid. 1)Increased warp time. 2)Decreased scan resolution/targetting range. 3)Can excite environmental phenomena. 4)Operates on a curve. First 10 ships on grid have almost no effect. After that, the curve is nearly linear, but gradually accrues worse and worse effects for each additional ship (a bit like lag and travelling salesman packet exponentiation tbh). 5)Decreases ship efficiency - i.e., use more fuel. (Oooh the fuel word.) -Environmental effects might be near gates. Once in a while, I would like to see gates ARC, and fry someone nearby into a crispy critter. Excessive warp cores in a gate grid should worsen the effect, and maybe recent gunfire too. I'd give each trigger sort of the opposite of a halflife, where each effect is half as significant+1pt in 15minute intervals. Asteroid belts could become unstable, and dangerous, and thus a preserve for the non-blobbers. -Fuel. My longtime favorite. It can be used to curtail the freedoms of poorly supplied fighters. It can turn POS into gas stations and oil derricks in the same brush. It can give already harried FCs one more thing to worry about when deploying a large fleet. It can make the average fighter question the merits of idling about a gate when he is going to get such a small percentage or none of the spoils of any ship that is destroyed. Well, those are deincentives to blobbing, but what about incentives for small scale action? Well we have to dig deeper for that. We can't solely touch on immediate mechanics and risks. We have to engineer an express need for small squads. This, naturally, is harder, but I have some ideas that are still simmering. No doubt, they will need to go under the paring knife until the simplest solution presents itself. --- Private Investment should preceed Public Investment
Khetchi	Posted - 2006.10.23 07:13:00 - [53] Originally by: Karille there's nothing wrong with 1v1 pvp, only fleet battles are broken. the only reason they happen is because both sides have large numbers. both sides are scared the other side is going to have more people. because of that fear they have to bring more people than the other side. this gets giant blobs of people on both sides, ensuring that most people will die. in short, fleet battles happen because people are scared to lose ships. maybe nodes crashing is [insert your religious entity here]'s way of telling you to stop ***** blobbing. why not go on small raiding parties instead of giant big fleet operations. hang out in groups of two instead of two hundred. that is the answer. Probably the best idea yet. Here's the problem as I see it. Both sides bring such a large force that they cannot afford to accept the losses they are going to receive if they try to attack the opposition. So, since defending a chokepoint is much more tactically sound than attacking through one, both fleets sit and wait for the other guy to do something. And wait. And wait. And wait. Stalemate. So, how many times are you going to do this before you figure out it ain't going to work? If all your major fleet battles end up like this, then obviously you need to be doing something else, right? Sitting back and complaining that "Greedy T2 BPO owners are driving the prices up!" or "The server crashes everytime we bring 2000+ people into one area!" is not going to change anything anytime soon. If you want to wage war you're going to have to accept the limitations you're working under. Break up that 2000+ battlefleet into 10-ship or 20-ship groups and go raiding... Look for holes in the defenses for the rest of their controlled areas and exploit them... Don't just sit back and complain that the tactics and strategy you want to use aren't working the way you want them too, find some way to work around** the problems you're facing. Maybe someday in the future the price of T2 ships will go down to a sane level again. Someday we might be able to get 2000+ ships in the same area without crashing the server. Someday there will be a Corp that's willing to charge your position even though you have them heavily outnumbered and outgunned. But I wouldn't hold my breathe.
Wild Rho Amarr Black Omega Security	Posted - 2006.10.23 07:23:00 - [54] Originally by: Coasterbrian Primary reasons (in order of cause): 1) Ever increasing price of tech II ****. 2) The fact that the eve populace seems to regard kill ratios as a measure of skill as of late. 3) Fear of lag. That's largely it, although I wouldn't try to apply any order to the list as that's a more subjective thing. Just wanted to add: 4) The very high likely hood of half the fleet being stuck in a queue when jumping through a gate to a hostile fleet. No one enjoys watching their force get picked off one by one. I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it.
Rick Dentill Lynx Frontier Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.23 07:25:00 - [55] I think you are making heavy assumptions here. The main one being that any fight is fun and that anything else is not. I have been in large fleet battles, and I can tell you they are not fun. I do not even get the pvp rush, though I inevitably die. For me, fun comes from small scale gang fights of maybe 4 or 5 a side at most. The other thing of course is that there are consequences to death in EVE. You do not just die, you lose stuff. If you lose your capacity to fight and enough others in your corp/alliance do, then you are in deep trouble in terms of holding space etc. Finally perhaps some people prefer sitting in safes chatting to dying needlessly? _______
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.23 07:47:00 - [56] I find small scale battles are where the fun lies. Large fleet battles (for me) were fun a year and a half ago when battles would range from blasting away at 15km up to around 80km, but then T2 ammo came along... ---------- - Office Linebacker -
ArchenTheGreat Caldari Yesodic Nomads Corp Triumvirate.	Posted - 2006.10.23 07:51:00 - [57] Originally by: Ernest Graefenberg Originally by: Breed Love Insane prices are definitely the number 1 reason. What good is insurance for when your fittings cost more than the ship itself. Losing a t2 fitted t1 ship is not that different from losing a hac with modules being this expensive. The competitive edge will always be expensive, and will always be in the upper bracket of what is expendable income. Prices have nothing to do with the modus operandi for engaging - change prices and the base level for a competitive ship shifts upwards, to the realm that it stays in the same proportion to income / wealth. You are right and wrong at the same time. You are right it's a matter of scale. You are wrong if you think it doesn't affect avoiding fights. If I am in tech1 fit thorax I may take a risk and go for 1vs3 fight just for fun. If I am in tech2 fit deimos I will think twice because my 1min fun fight will cost me two weeks of boring ISK earning.
Antoinette Civari Black Omega Security	Posted - 2006.10.23 08:25:00 - [58] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Large fleet battles (for me) were fun a year and a half ago when battles would range from blasting away at 15km up to around 80km, but then T2 ammo came along... Even without t2 ammo, the usual fighting distance was between 80 to 120km. o0
LaCoHa Caldari Deep Space Navy Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2006.10.23 09:30:00 - [59] Edited by: LaCoHa on 23/10/2006 09:32:54 Yeah. Some one mentioned this as well, but how in the hell are smaller groups of BS's or Hac's suppose to deal with Carriers?? That is yet another reason for increased blobbing - You simply can not deal with a carrier without blobbing. Or am I wrong? Edit* Or for that matter Motherships and/or Titans (dreads do not scare me though - well the Moros does) "I just slaughtered 28 people in that game of Battlefield 2 and never died. Man my e-p33n feels huge."
Xs 142	Posted - 2006.10.23 09:37:00 - [60] Did you ever see ANY movie with space combat? Blobbing is what they do. It's called an "army" Originally by: Oveur Eternally yours, The other dumbass

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