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KnightCrawler adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.22 22:07:00 - [1] I have been in eve since 2003 and lately I have seen a problem with medium and large scale pvp. I am Not talking about lag or technicaly problems. People are being way to cautious when deciding to pvp or not and forgetting that this is a game and its meant to be enjoyed. In the last year or so I have seen a disturbing trend. Both fleets/ gangs stay 1 jump away from each other waiting for the other one to make a move so they will have a strategic advantage. A pvp game become a waiting game, both sides will sometimes wait hours for the other to make a move. A lot of the times one side will say screw it and log off or leave. This is a game, people are supposed to have fun, not sit at a safespot or gate for hours at a time waiting so that the side your on will win the fight. I am a very wreckless player and I lose ships more than anyone I know, but I am having a lot of fun doing it. I remember a long time ago people would jump into battle and not worry about losing their ship. I feel that this game is changing for the worst where people dont want to take any risks at all on something thats not real. The whole point of the game is to do stuff that your not able to do in real life, which includes shooting people and blowing people up or getting yourself blown up. I am always told that it doesnt matter who wins as long as everyone has fun. Its seems recently winning is more important than having fun.
Xelios Minmatar Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.10.22 22:12:00 - [2] We haven't been afraid to fight, even outnumbered. It's meant losing more ships for us, but it's also so much more fun than waiting for exactly the right situation before daring to fight. Hell just yesterday we took on 31 with our gang of 14, we ended up losing a few battleships but so what? They're just tools to have fun, and have fun we did.
Samirol Ore Mongers	Posted - 2006.10.22 22:15:00 - [3] tux is making it so eve is more blobby (hp increase anyone?)
lofty29 Praxiteles Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.22 22:15:00 - [4] I feel your pain. I've avoided alliances alot recently due to the waiting games, in favour of crazy-assed suicide PVP in syndicate (Like, ganking crap infront of its corp/alliance mates and making a run for it) as I find it a crapton more fun. Sure I die quite a bit, but who cares?! Its a game --- Praxitele's Inc. is Recruiting!
LaCoHa Caldari Deep Space Navy Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2006.10.22 22:17:00 - [5] Edited by: LaCoHa on 22/10/2006 22:17:13 Originally by: KnightCrawler People are being way to cautious when deciding to pvp or not and forgetting that this is a game and its meant to be enjoyed. That was before 250 million dollar average hac prices.
Cmdr Sy Off Balance Sheet Entity	Posted - 2006.10.22 22:18:00 - [6] Maybe it's the guns on everyone's ships costing half the price of a HAC, and the "don't fly it if you can't afford it" rule breaking down when you know the FC will warp to covert to land at 150km range? Or maybe it's just the current alliance culture being risk-averse? I recall this time last year, NBSI and -V- set new benchmarks in the art of creatively suiciding fleets. Maybe the current alliance culture is generally in a cautious phase which will pass with time? I wouldn't know. Bailed out of the politics 10 months ago. But those would be my first guesses. Give it some time?
Nymos Celtic Anarchy Black Reign Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.22 22:19:00 - [7] Edited by: Nymos on 22/10/2006 22:25:02 Edited by: Nymos on 22/10/2006 22:24:16 Edited by: Nymos on 22/10/2006 22:20:06 could be that these people fly stuff that violates the rule of thumb "don't fly what you can't afford to lose"? considering that a t2 fitted gunship costs an arm, a leg and both ******* :( or the pain of spending a lot of time running back to jita or wherever to get new equipment. for me the latter one is the most painful part. if i lose my stuff i'll replace it, but noone replaces time wasted for 30 jumps to eve's favorite junkyard and 30 back. and i enjoy neither instaing there to be "faster" nor afk-autopiloting. still, even this doesn't stop me from jumpin' into the fire if i'm ordered to do so edit: it might happen to prevent the other fleet from e-peen stroking their k/d ratio. just an idea edit2: since when is testicle an obscene word? lol... if you guess what the *s mean, men usually have two of it, some have none and i know someone who has a sweaty left one according to his own forum post hehe. edit3: interesting, singular is not censored. pfft. --
Bohoba Caldari The Dark Angles	Posted - 2006.10.22 22:23:00 - [8] I have seen this to but whats the fun of jumping staring at a black screen then ending up in a station our warping into the enemy waiting for targets to appear then ending up in a station never even seeing the enemy nothing on the logs just a death mail when the game can Handel 10v10 even I am sure things will get better but dying without even having seen your enemy is no fun for me thats for sure. Get Into the Game it makes it fun for all
Xelios Minmatar Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.10.22 22:27:00 - [9] The t2 prices are a load of crap, they contribute to this problem quite a bit. The other thing is the insane sniper ranges these days. A short range gang has pretty much no chance against a sniper gang, even if you manage to get a dictor on top of it the whole gang warps out as soon as the dictor enters the grid. You might catch one or two of them and lose 3 or 4 in the process. I've spent months training to use t2 ships and modules, and I want to use them, but when a HAC plus fittings costs me damn near 250 mil of course I'm going to be cautious with it. I don't have the luxury of having a license to print isk, aka t2 bpo. So it's either be cautious or fly around in t1 stuff. Invention isn't going to help this much, so it looks like we're stuck with cautious blob fights for the forseeable future. Or you can do what we do, sod the odds and just go in firing.
LaCoHa Caldari Deep Space Navy Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2006.10.22 22:27:00 - [10] Originally by: Nymos it might happen to prevent the other fleet from e-peen stroking their k/d ratio. just an idea I have now heard this twice today, and even in context I can not figure out what it means - "E-Peen" Thanks.
Nir	Posted - 2006.10.22 22:28:00 - [11] I'd say killboards play a big part in this. The race for the biggest ego, both on personal and corporate level.. it causes people to take less risks.
Nymos Celtic Anarchy Black Reign Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.22 22:34:00 - [12] Originally by: LaCoHa Originally by: Nymos it might happen to prevent the other fleet from e-peen stroking their k/d ratio. just an idea I have now heard this twice today, and even in context I can not figure out what it means - "E-Peen" Thanks. urbandictionary is your friend :) real great to find explanations for acronyms, web-lingo, slang etc. --
LaCoHa Caldari Deep Space Navy Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2006.10.22 22:41:00 - [13] Quote from Urbandictionary.com Usage example of "E-Peen": "I just slaughtered 28 people in that game of Battlefield 2 and never died. Man my e-p33n feels huge." haha. that is awesome, thanks for the link. "E-Peen" "I just slaughtered 28 people in that game of Battlefield 2 and never died. Man my e-p33n feels huge." "E-Peen"
Admai Sket	Posted - 2006.10.22 22:42:00 - [14] Originally by: LaCoHa Quote from Urbandictionary.com Usage example of "E-Peen": "I just slaughtered 28 people in that game of Battlefield 2 and never died. Man my e-p33n feels huge." haha. that is awesome, thanks for the link. lmao MY SIG: Linkage Funny thread.
Pestillence Chav-Scum	Posted - 2006.10.22 22:47:00 - [15] Blob inducing game changes and silly high t2 prices to blame perhaps?
Lord Vak	Posted - 2006.10.22 22:49:00 - [16] It's sad that Carebearism has taken over so many major alliances in EVE. We (my corp) do occasionaly some roaming in well-known hotspots and there has never ever been a question "What if i loose my ship?". Every single one reporting to the Op is aware and willing to lose their ships for the sake of some small gang PVP fun. Last time it was good bubble trap by D2 (yes, we knew that 2 pods in empty 0.0 is a trap) and after the gank we had the best laughs ever. We lost somewhere near 70M of stuff ( insurances have been taken from this amount ), and yes i know its not much for us seasoned players but there were many pilots flying ships/fittings that had drained their entire wallet. So if someone claims that ISK is the problem then i'd say, go 100% carebear and stay in 0.5 and above :) there you can make all the money you want and never ever have to lose a ship again, for the rest whom plan to stay in low sec/0.0, forget the stabs and fit some PVP gear and join the fun :)
Father Weebles Panzershrek Blood Raiders Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:02:00 - [17] That was before 1 Large tech2 gun costed 16mil apiece.... "Welcome to EVE, where inflation is out of control."
anyname isfine	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:04:00 - [18] It's easy to agree with a lot of this, but Quote: waiting for the other one to make a move so they will have a strategic advantage. It seems prudent and I would not fly with a commander who isn't looking for every tactical and strategic advantage.
TheDevilsJury principle of motion R i s e	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:09:00 - [19] Originally by: anyname isfine It's easy to agree with a lot of this, but Quote: waiting for the other one to make a move so they will have a strategic advantage. It seems prudent and I would not fly with a commander who isn't looking for every tactical and strategic advantage. Yes, but there are other ways of generating tactical and strategic advantages that don't involve sitting at SS or the other side of the gate. I think the mark of a really good FC is one who can find these advantages even when the most obvious action causes disadvatage. ----------------------- sig below Originally by: ISD I don't think I've ever seen anyone hijack their own thread before
Master OlavPancrazio Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:13:00 - [20] CCP can alleviate these problems by seeding more hac and t2 bpos. Why am I going to rush into battle when it takes nearly a day of ratting to pay for my hac loss?
Coasterbrian Celestial Fleet Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:14:00 - [21] Primary reasons (in order of cause): 1) Ever increasing price of tech II ****. 2) The fact that the eve populace seems to regard kill ratios as a measure of skill as of late. 3) Fear of lag. ---------- I say what I mean, but I don't always mean what I say.
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:15:00 - [22] Remove local in 0.0 and things will change...
Buxaroo Black Dwarf Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:18:00 - [23] Originally by: LaCoHa Edited by: LaCoHa on 22/10/2006 22:17:13 Originally by: KnightCrawler People are being way to cautious when deciding to pvp or not and forgetting that this is a game and its meant to be enjoyed. That was before 250 million dollar average hac prices. Aint that the $%^& truth. Reason why I have been going out in my scorpion in fleet ops instead of my rook which I want to because the scorp is insured and if it goes kaboom, no biggie, just insurance and mods. Guess what? Lost my scorp this morning because I pressed warp and it took 20 seconds for me to start warping and the hostiles torp hit me right before I warped. If I hadn't that lag I would still be in my scorp with it's hypnos jammers Also guess what? The D2 guys also logged for the exact same reason they even said in local that the fight would have to happen later because of the lag. See, that's whats so damn ****y. You don't win battles anymore by strategy or whits or good decisions, but by whoever doesn't get module lag as bad or warps in at the right time. That is what is messing up pvp. If I lost my Cerberus with all its fittings because I wasn't paying attention or jumped into a gatecamp without a scout then thats my mistake. But if I loose my ship because of severe lag then that's the server's fault and not my own. These things have to be fixed pronto. Hell, put off Kali for a month while you guys work on the code or hardware for this because I would rather have a stable server and less lag so that I can actually PLAY the game. I lvoe CCP and this game, and I am always the first cheerleader to step up and give CCP a pat on the back. But this lag is just unbearable. Now I see why people are leaving alliances and big corps because the fleet actions aren't an action anymore. The other day I went to empire to do soem low sec pvp and me and my corp mate ganged up with someone who is ex-BoB and he said the exact same thing: fleet battles suck nowadays.
RevelationX	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:20:00 - [24] SiSi is the cure, when im in there i just suicide my Rev into random massive fleets. There is so much carnage in SiSi so i never leave "But I, being poor, have only my dreams, I have spread my dreams under your feet, Tread softly because you tread on my dreams"
infraX Caldari Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:26:00 - [25] I feel the problem is probably a bit of everything mentioned here. Pride of not losing ships or plain old killboard whoring and the fact that decent stuff in EVE is expensive. T1 cheap throwaway stuff is all well and good but most people want to stay competetive and the average T2 fitted bs can cost anything up to 200mil (or more) and to get on to the T2 cruiser ladder; anything from say 120 to 300mil with fittings. The problem is, it takes the average player (and most people are average players, not uber rich t2 lottery winners or complex hoarders, ccp) a fair amount of time to earn that kind of isk. A month of grinding can flash before a players eyes in what feels like about 10 seconds in the heat of the battle as the ship bursts into flames and eventually pops in a brilliant, blue flash. A lot of people like their implants too, and while the prices have come down recently, a full set of +3's is still 100mil. That, and with the introduction of interdictors and the increased lag recently, it's even easier to lose your pod after your ship blows up. I realise that eve is meant to be harsh, and a loss is meant to hurt, but seriously, how MUCH hurt do you possibly want? I personally think a whole month (for the average joe doing his missions or whatever) per 'extra life' is a tad ridiculous. No wonder people are "being cautious" and don't want to engage so often. I often wonder if this is quite how harsh CCP wanted the results of pvp to be. Sure wars are great fun, and they can be completely devestating to a corp or alliance but I can't help thinking that CCP isn't looking at the bigger picture in that there are a lot of players in the game that aren't rich!
Audrea Momentum.	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:30:00 - [26] Yeah I'd agree that prices are a major problem... I really want to go out pvp in Ishtar, but when the thing costs overy 200mil a piece, I would think twice about buying/taking it to pvp :( Not because of the loss, but because to replace it doesnt take just 3 hours ratting, but whole day, if not more. Thats what changed since the older days - prices increased, but ways ot make money (play time) stayed the same ------------------ Save Tranquility!
John Blackthorn Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:31:00 - [27] Many good points here. Two things cause less pvp. Lack for isk and lag. Just yesterday I was at a gate camp protecting our home system. Enemy fleet jumps in. I have effects, sounds off, local closed, over-view closed. I'm on a very high speed connection using a computer system with very good resources. And what happens? My screen frezzes. Next I know is i'm 1/2 armor. Then 1/2 strucutre. The only thing that saved me is because i started my booster just as they jumped in. When I saw 1/2 armor I went ahead and pressed warp. Didn't even see myself warp out. Just appeared at the belt. NO one, NO one wants to fight when they can't defend/fight back. Waking up in a station and not being able to fire a shot is real ****er. Second issue of isk is pretty simple. You spend a week or two working every night to be able to afford a hac. Then loose it to the above situation. But the strange thing is.. the art of war is to make it so that your enemy can't afford to continue right? -John
Lord Vak Amarr Parhelion Industries	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:31:00 - [28] Oh and about HAC prices, yes they are too high, and no, they should not drop them artificialy. I think it really makes things just more intresting, since you really have to think "Do i REALLY want to try my faction fitted Vaga, since it could cost me weeks worth of NPC:ing? Or just go whit tempest and have some cheap fun?". If they drop the prices and and make them insurable they ruin the fun part in it, the fact you have to choose between pwnage/money and Fun/replaceable.
John Blackthorn Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:35:00 - [29] BTW: most pvp consits of one or two gates jumping through getting aggro on someone then 10+ ships jump thourgh and pounce the guy/gal. Everyone does it, but even if you do a 2vs2 normally the fight ends with 2 of them warping off and hiding because you didn't bring enophe tacklers to hold them down.. AND FINALLY: the new patch will increase ship hitpoints and extenders/armor plates. which is going to make it even more difficult ot engage in 1v1 ish fights.
ragewind Caldari VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:47:00 - [30] there are a few problems with PVP T2 prices suck simple the number of BPO's seeded months ago wont ever suport the number of players usesing them now the member bases has jumped up 2 fold, lag dread ops/ fleet battels and even small engagments are a pain now with the current server performance. aliances and corps seem to be small or mid size less large aliances seem to be forming see all the old maps showing several large aliances of 4,5,6K members just dosnt happen ------------------------------------ Dragon the patch to optimise EVE. Welcome to Tranquillity the optimised snail Please wait 4 minuets to jump war targets are 2 seconds away.
Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:47:00 - [31] Edited by: Ernest Graefenberg on 22/10/2006 23:47:51 Avoidance is simply too easy particularly with scouts, and combat itself has too few player-involved avoidance measures (and those that do exist have totally unnecessary hardcounters - ie Huginns/Rapiers of goddamn death). It's gotten to the point where the most fun way of getting a good fight I can think of is a freakin' login-trap :/ In other words, if fighting outnumbered weren't a question of getting ECMed, tackled by someones obnoxious frigate or 40km Fleeting Webber and subsequently focusfired in a few seconds it would actually be quite interesting. As it stands, fighting outnumbered is just that. A contest to see how long you can stay a step ahead of the bait-trap of superdeath. It's going to catch you someday, and there's not a thing you're going to be able to do moving at 1% of your maxspeed and permajammed.
Liklin Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:54:00 - [32] Originally by: Buxaroo Originally by: LaCoHa Edited by: LaCoHa on 22/10/2006 22:17:13 Originally by: KnightCrawler People are being way to cautious when deciding to pvp or not and forgetting that this is a game and its meant to be enjoyed. That was before 250 million dollar average hac prices. Aint that the $%^& truth. Reason why I have been going out in my scorpion in fleet ops instead of my rook which I want to because the scorp is insured and if it goes kaboom, no biggie, just insurance and mods. Guess what? Lost my scorp this morning because I pressed warp and it took 20 seconds for me to start warping and the hostiles torp hit me right before I warped. If I hadn't that lag I would still be in my scorp with it's hypnos jammers Also guess what? The D2 guys also logged for the exact same reason they even said in local that the fight would have to happen later because of the lag. See, that's whats so damn ****y. You don't win battles anymore by strategy or whits or good decisions, but by whoever doesn't get module lag as bad or warps in at the right time. That is what is messing up pvp. If I lost my Cerberus with all its fittings because I wasn't paying attention or jumped into a gatecamp without a scout then thats my mistake. But if I loose my ship because of severe lag then that's the server's fault and not my own. These things have to be fixed pronto. Hell, put off Kali for a month while you guys work on the code or hardware for this because I would rather have a stable server and less lag so that I can actually PLAY the game. I lvoe CCP and this game, and I am always the first cheerleader to step up and give CCP a pat on the back. But this lag is just unbearable. Now I see why people are leaving alliances and big corps because the fleet actions aren't an action anymore. The other day I went to empire to do soem low sec pvp and me and my corp mate ganged up with someone who is ex-BoB and he said the exact same thing: fleet battles suck nowadays. yea couldn't agree more, and then you get blown away waiting in a gate queue lol
infraX Caldari Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:58:00 - [33] Edited by: infraX on 22/10/2006 23:58:29 Originally by: Khetchi This is why pirating is so much fun. Here's a few things every real pirate knows that the corps seem to have forgotten: 1: Cheaper is better. Don't fly what you can't lose. 2: It takes forever to fit a ship. Always have a few ships waiting at your base already fitted and ready to fight. 3: Buying insurance and not getting your ship destroyed is a waste of ISK. Since you have the insurance, might as well fight. 4: You're gonna get your ship destroyed, you're gonna get podded, you're gonna lose ISK... none of that automatically means you lose the fight. 5: Planning, skill, and big brass **s count for more in a fight than ships and/or equipment. 6: If you lose, so what? In a PVP game someone's always gonna lose and no matter how big you are, how skilled you are, or how much you've planned every last detail it just might be you. That's what insurance and clone upgrades are for. 7: Learn to love large scale fleet battles. This means everything bigger than a T1 Cruiser is just sitting and waiting, afraid to move or the other guy will roll over them. So nobody is patrolling their territory. HINT - HINT - BIG **ing HINT. WTS: A clue. Post with your main.
Edhel Eternal Silence Ltd.	Posted - 2006.10.23 00:00:00 - [34] removing (changing local) as a large amount of people might possibly fix this, at least it would limit how well you can tell the enemies numbers. However while this is a game and is meant to be enjoyed, what you are risking is pvp is the isk equivalent of your ship + mods and maybe more accurately the time you spent earning that isk, which is why some people are more cautious than others, so it's understandable that some are now and will continue to be cautious, which is why the local should maybe be nerfed.
prathe Minmatar Omega Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.23 00:10:00 - [35] "pvp is getting lame" no it's just getting too expensive for most loosing 250 mils in a fair fight is okay loosing 250 mils because of jump in lag or CTD is weak you built that ship to fight in it not to get a killmail while your frozen
Laocoon Veto.	Posted - 2006.10.23 00:20:00 - [36] Originally by: Samirol tux is making it so eve is more blobby (hp increase anyone?) sad but so true - Lao Veto. Corp
MMoroz Beach Boys	Posted - 2006.10.23 00:40:00 - [37] I think, that the thing which destroy pvp the most are Capital Ships, more and more people get them and they camp stations and think they are ubber etc... If i jump with 3 friends against 8 ships, it`s hard but still possible to win but if one is carrier what am i supposed to do? Ok i can snipe( boring ). I don`t have solution fot this, CS are fun but maybe too cheap and maybe they should be moved to 0.0 only so if you want you still can have fun in low sec. With Kali coming it will be even more ****** up for two reasons: more people will have them , and nerfing nosferatus and EW will make killing them harder( as i understand energy destabilizers will be nerfed too ).
Kasibee'an Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2006.10.23 01:19:00 - [38] Thought you quit forums twice already?
Breed Love Minmatar Stormriders	Posted - 2006.10.23 01:32:00 - [39] Insane prices are definitely the number 1 reason. What good is insurance for when your fittings cost more than the ship itself. Losing a t2 fitted t1 ship is not that different from losing a hac with modules being this expensive. ------ Originally by: Gazon In any case, the whole affair had one lasting effect: Awarding Stormriders the label of ridiculous drug addicts with a tendency towards utterly foolish actions.
Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.23 01:43:00 - [40] Originally by: Breed Love Insane prices are definitely the number 1 reason. What good is insurance for when your fittings cost more than the ship itself. Losing a t2 fitted t1 ship is not that different from losing a hac with modules being this expensive. The competitive edge will always be expensive, and will always be in the upper bracket of what is expendable income. Prices have nothing to do with the modus operandi for engaging - change prices and the base level for a competitive ship shifts upwards, to the realm that it stays in the same proportion to income / wealth. This is purely a combat mechanical problem (both as far as actual combat and pre-combat goes). Reckless engagements with little cost to oneself are perfectly possible as it stands now, and always will be unless T1 equipment and insurance is removed. The desire to not lose however usually supercedes a groups willingness to create even fights. Which is the way things should be and something that won't change as long as people play with some involvement into the matter. The only problem is avoiding engagements altogether is entirely too simple as it stands, and so is setting up nigh impenetrable defense and unkillable snipers. As a result, we get aforementioned standoffs and a whole lot of baiting involved in getting any engagement to commence :/
Breed Love Minmatar Stormriders	Posted - 2006.10.23 02:20:00 - [41] Originally by: Ernest Graefenberg The competitive edge will always be expensive, and will always be in the upper bracket of what is expendable income. Prices have nothing to do with the modus operandi for engaging - change prices and the base level for a competitive ship shifts upwards, to the realm that it stays in the same proportion to income / wealth. You are just wrong, people will always want to use what their skills allow, if the prices are lowered the "base level" isnt going anywhere. Originally by: Ernest Graefenberg This is purely a combat mechanical problem (both as far as actual combat and pre-combat goes). Reckless engagements with little cost to oneself are perfectly possible as it stands now, and always will be unless T1 equipment and insurance is removed. Its fun to go in fitted with t1 and suicide a few times, but it gets boring and few want to keep doing it. The performance gap between t1 and t2 is so big that die is all you can do in a cheap t1 fitted ship. Originally by: Ernest Graefenberg The desire to not lose however usually supercedes a groups willingness to create even fights. Which is the way things should be and something that won't change as long as people play with some involvement into the matter. The only problem is avoiding engagements altogether is entirely too simple as it stands, and so is setting up nigh impenetrable defense and unkillable snipers. Don't confuse the "desire not to lose" with the "fear of losing" that is taking place today. No one likes to lose, but atm many are really afraid of losing because of all the trouble it takes to replace what they lost, that they would rather not fight if they arent 100% sure of the outcome of the battle. ------ Originally by: Gazon In any case, the whole affair had one lasting effect: Awarding Stormriders the label of ridiculous drug addicts with a tendency towards utterly foolish actions.
Charles Schwab The Charles Schwab Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.23 02:27:00 - [42] CCP has designed into EVE, from day 1, the grim reality that losing your ship presents. It hurts. It's supposed to hurt. That's why most people, it seems, are very wary of engaging other folks in combat without knowing the outcome beforehand, or without a greater purpose (i.e. defending/taking space). This is kind of like in real life, when you are confronted by a robber with a gun, you typically just want to avoid being podded and will act accordingly. It's only natural. ___
Breed Love Minmatar Stormriders	Posted - 2006.10.23 02:32:00 - [43] Originally by: Charles Schwab CCP has designed into EVE, from day 1, the grim reality that losing your ship presents. It hurts. It's supposed to hurt. That's why most people, it seems, are very wary of engaging other folks in combat without knowing the outcome beforehand, or without a greater purpose (i.e. defending/taking space). This is kind of like in real life, when you are confronted by a robber with a gun, you typically just want to avoid being podded and will act accordingly. It's only natural. This is still a game though, and it has to be fun. There is a line between being fun but with losses still hurting, and losses hurting to much that it is not fun anymore, since all you do is grind to replace the stuff and that is boring. ------ Originally by: Gazon In any case, the whole affair had one lasting effect: Awarding Stormriders the label of ridiculous drug addicts with a tendency towards utterly foolish actions.
Christina Vallentine Caldari Tau Ceti Global Production Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.10.23 02:42:00 - [44] People enjoy a good fight. People enjoy pvp, I believe this to be a universal truth. Some more some less. When was the last time you enjoyed jumping into a zone and being insta poded while people screamed at you, "YEAH ***** WE SHOWED YOU". Whack a mole anyone? No sorry. I love pvp. But I will not loose a ship worth 250 Million ISK to a gate camp on the other side of the gate because it's fun. It is not fun. If there was at least a fight involved.. Then it would be fun. As it currently stands, sorry.
BhallSpawn	Posted - 2006.10.23 02:59:00 - [45] Your forgetting the fact that CCP royally screwed us with this super dumb que system I'm surprized half the player base hasn't quit because of it. who wants a fleet battle when you don't even know your gonna make it to the other side of the gate.
Telemicus Thrace Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.10.23 03:10:00 - [46] Originally by: anyname isfine It's easy to agree with a lot of this, but Quote: waiting for the other one to make a move so they will have a strategic advantage. It seems prudent and I would not fly with a commander who isn't looking for every tactical and strategic advantage. Sometimes speed is a tactical advantage. Rush in while everyone is still typing "x Ushra'Khan in abc" and pick off a target. Hit and run is fun. Had a mad little fight a few nights ago, about 14 frigs vs 8 or so BS and a command ship. Most of us left in pods or woke up in a clone bay but it was loadsa fun. I lost a jag but it was worth it seeing a command ship and 2-3 other BS go down. I see a lot of folk flying like they can't afford to lose their ship, I think that is a large part of it. Avoidance tactics also breed blobs. You start out with a couple of guys on the hunt then a target safespots. Then you need to lock down the system until the prober arrives. You may also need more people to cover the other gates. etc etc. The longer you sit around the more people both side tend to collect from passing allies. If you can't kill it, move on. If you can kill or within a bears roar of killing it engage. Decisive action. >> RECRUITING <<
Dominixa Shadows of the Dead Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.23 03:15:00 - [47] http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=338167 How many times has this character changed hands?
Red Ochre	Posted - 2006.10.23 03:47:00 - [48] Originally by: KnightCrawler I have been in eve since 2003 and lately I have seen a problem with medium and large scale pvp. I am Not talking about lag or technicaly problems. People are being way to cautious when deciding to pvp or not and forgetting that this is a game and its meant to be enjoyed. In the last year or so I have seen a disturbing trend. Both fleets/ gangs stay 1 jump away from each other waiting for the other one to make a move so they will have a strategic advantage. A pvp game become a waiting game, both sides will sometimes wait hours for the other to make a move. A lot of the times one side will say screw it and log off or leave. This is a game, people are supposed to have fun, not sit at a safespot or gate for hours at a time waiting so that the side your on will win the fight. I am a very wreckless player and I lose ships more than anyone I know, but I am having a lot of fun doing it. I remember a long time ago people would jump into battle and not worry about losing their ship. I feel that this game is changing for the worst where people dont want to take any risks at all on something thats not real. The whole point of the game is to do stuff that your not able to do in real life, which includes shooting people and blowing people up or getting yourself blown up. I am always told that it doesnt matter who wins as long as everyone has fun. Its seems recently winning is more important than having fun. you...have a problem i will copy a small excerpt from your post, i will make no judgement........ "The whole point of the game is to do stuff that your not able to do in real life, which includes shooting people and blowing people up or getting yourself blown up." i would tell you..."you need jesus!!!" but i am not religeous, sooo, i will just say...............you have issues that need working out.
Karille Lordless Unbrella Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.23 05:21:00 - [49] Originally by: infraX Edited by: infraX on 22/10/2006 23:58:29 Originally by: Khetchi This is why pirating is so much fun. Here's a few things every real pirate knows that the corps seem to have forgotten: 1: Cheaper is better. Don't fly what you can't lose. 2: It takes forever to fit a ship. Always have a few ships waiting at your base already fitted and ready to fight. 3: Buying insurance and not getting your ship destroyed is a waste of ISK. Since you have the insurance, might as well fight. 4: You're gonna get your ship destroyed, you're gonna get podded, you're gonna lose ISK... none of that automatically means you lose the fight. 5: Planning, skill, and big brass **s count for more in a fight than ships and/or equipment. 6: If you lose, so what? In a PVP game someone's always gonna lose and no matter how big you are, how skilled you are, or how much you've planned every last detail it just might be you. That's what insurance and clone upgrades are for. 7: Learn to love large scale fleet battles. This means everything bigger than a T1 Cruiser is just sitting and waiting, afraid to move or the other guy will roll over them. So nobody is patrolling their territory. HINT - HINT - BIG ing HINT. WTS: A clue. Post with your main. there's nothing wrong with 1v1 pvp, only fleet battles are broken. the only reason they happen is because both sides have large numbers. both sides are scared the other side is going to have more people. because of that fear they have to bring more people than the other side. this gets giant blobs of people on both sides, ensuring that most people will die. in short, fleet battles happen because people are scared to lose ships. maybe nodes crashing is [insert your religious entity here]'s way of telling you to stop ***** blobbing. why not go on small raiding parties instead of giant big fleet operations. hang out in groups of two instead of two hundred. that is the answer.
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.10.23 05:30:00 - [50] "People are being way to cautious when deciding to pvp or not and forgetting that this is a game and its meant to be enjoyed." You're right but fun isn;t warping in to get near insta locked from 150 km away and wtfbbq'd instantly. Also fun isn;t grinding level 4 missions or mining or ratting for mega hours to replace the 300+ mill in hardware you go bbq'd by trying to have fun. CCP has been consistently moving pvp the wrong direction in EVE, with the killmail/killstats , allowing the economy to become very overpriced because of the fake limited t2 bpo's, and in general promoting gate cmaping ( which is ultra easy safe way to pvp ) , promoting sniping ( again ultra safe ), so who wants to warp in and get insta owned just because..... I mean for real it isnt even fun dude so i have no idea wtf you're talking about lol. CCP has been lead astray by the so called pvp'ers in EVE who really arent not pvper's they are griefers, and the end result is EVE by catering to people who like to greif is filled with griefers, and most people wanting good pvp have siomply left. So now you primarily got people who like to grief who keep spamming CCP saying keep greifing in and pking while they flame any suggesting and critisms thatpromote good pvp and limit greifing ganking. thus keeping the status quo or making it worse, now you got leagions of weak players who thought pvp was ghreifing and ganking all scared to fight each other because they don;t got sure wins camping a gate, or sniping..... and they sit there staring at each other all afraid to play a battle that the outcome is uncertain...all eagerly awaiting the confrontation to end from boredom so they can get back to gate camping nice safe and coozy.
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2006.10.23 06:28:00 - [51] w00t, after year and + people are also seeing why I said that losing in PvP is "fun". Sniping 4tw and blobs! Yay Unnerf Amarr!Ö "I read somewhere that Kali will be featuring turn-based combat to increase immersion." ¬ Waagaa Ktlehr
Lygos ISS Navy Task Force	Posted - 2006.10.23 06:38:00 - [52] I do not recall a time when blobbing was not lame. I do, however, recall a time when 15 ppl was considered a node crashing blob. What we need are incentives to not blob. Right now, blob=security=preserving resources through fewer engagements and exposures. Also, blobbing means accomplishing something where something entails taking out assets like POS or stations, or just temporary gate control for a freighter or a camp or whatever. Some ideas: -Make POS have distributed defense. Attackers should have to attack multiple locations simultaneously, or at least once a network is in reinforced. Defenders can't blob one source either, or the heavily defended node will weaken offensively with the abuse of undefended nodes. When constellation sovereignty effects are in, we can have real potential for spreading blobs out across nodes. -Engine cores can have deleterious effects when in the same grid. 1)Increased warp time. 2)Decreased scan resolution/targetting range. 3)Can excite environmental phenomena. 4)Operates on a curve. First 10 ships on grid have almost no effect. After that, the curve is nearly linear, but gradually accrues worse and worse effects for each additional ship (a bit like lag and travelling salesman packet exponentiation tbh). 5)Decreases ship efficiency - i.e., use more fuel. (Oooh the fuel word.) -Environmental effects might be near gates. Once in a while, I would like to see gates ARC, and fry someone nearby into a crispy critter. Excessive warp cores in a gate grid should worsen the effect, and maybe recent gunfire too. I'd give each trigger sort of the opposite of a halflife, where each effect is half as significant+1pt in 15minute intervals. Asteroid belts could become unstable, and dangerous, and thus a preserve for the non-blobbers. -Fuel. My longtime favorite. It can be used to curtail the freedoms of poorly supplied fighters. It can turn POS into gas stations and oil derricks in the same brush. It can give already harried FCs one more thing to worry about when deploying a large fleet. It can make the average fighter question the merits of idling about a gate when he is going to get such a small percentage or none of the spoils of any ship that is destroyed. Well, those are deincentives to blobbing, but what about incentives for small scale action? Well we have to dig deeper for that. We can't solely touch on immediate mechanics and risks. We have to engineer an express need for small squads. This, naturally, is harder, but I have some ideas that are still simmering. No doubt, they will need to go under the paring knife until the simplest solution presents itself. --- Private Investment should preceed Public Investment
Khetchi	Posted - 2006.10.23 07:13:00 - [53] Originally by: Karille there's nothing wrong with 1v1 pvp, only fleet battles are broken. the only reason they happen is because both sides have large numbers. both sides are scared the other side is going to have more people. because of that fear they have to bring more people than the other side. this gets giant blobs of people on both sides, ensuring that most people will die. in short, fleet battles happen because people are scared to lose ships. maybe nodes crashing is [insert your religious entity here]'s way of telling you to stop ***** blobbing. why not go on small raiding parties instead of giant big fleet operations. hang out in groups of two instead of two hundred. that is the answer. Probably the best idea yet. Here's the problem as I see it. Both sides bring such a large force that they cannot afford to accept the losses they are going to receive if they try to attack the opposition. So, since defending a chokepoint is much more tactically sound than attacking through one, both fleets sit and wait for the other guy to do something. And wait. And wait. And wait. Stalemate. So, how many times are you going to do this before you figure out it ain't going to work? If all your major fleet battles end up like this, then obviously you need to be doing something else, right? Sitting back and complaining that "Greedy T2 BPO owners are driving the prices up!" or "The server crashes everytime we bring 2000+ people into one area!" is not going to change anything anytime soon. If you want to wage war you're going to have to accept the limitations you're working under. Break up that 2000+ battlefleet into 10-ship or 20-ship groups and go raiding... Look for holes in the defenses for the rest of their controlled areas and exploit them... Don't just sit back and complain that the tactics and strategy you want to use aren't working the way you want them too, find some way to work around** the problems you're facing. Maybe someday in the future the price of T2 ships will go down to a sane level again. Someday we might be able to get 2000+ ships in the same area without crashing the server. Someday there will be a Corp that's willing to charge your position even though you have them heavily outnumbered and outgunned. But I wouldn't hold my breathe.
Wild Rho Amarr Black Omega Security	Posted - 2006.10.23 07:23:00 - [54] Originally by: Coasterbrian Primary reasons (in order of cause): 1) Ever increasing price of tech II ****. 2) The fact that the eve populace seems to regard kill ratios as a measure of skill as of late. 3) Fear of lag. That's largely it, although I wouldn't try to apply any order to the list as that's a more subjective thing. Just wanted to add: 4) The very high likely hood of half the fleet being stuck in a queue when jumping through a gate to a hostile fleet. No one enjoys watching their force get picked off one by one. I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it.
Rick Dentill Lynx Frontier Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.23 07:25:00 - [55] I think you are making heavy assumptions here. The main one being that any fight is fun and that anything else is not. I have been in large fleet battles, and I can tell you they are not fun. I do not even get the pvp rush, though I inevitably die. For me, fun comes from small scale gang fights of maybe 4 or 5 a side at most. The other thing of course is that there are consequences to death in EVE. You do not just die, you lose stuff. If you lose your capacity to fight and enough others in your corp/alliance do, then you are in deep trouble in terms of holding space etc. Finally perhaps some people prefer sitting in safes chatting to dying needlessly? _______
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.23 07:47:00 - [56] I find small scale battles are where the fun lies. Large fleet battles (for me) were fun a year and a half ago when battles would range from blasting away at 15km up to around 80km, but then T2 ammo came along... ---------- - Office Linebacker -
ArchenTheGreat Caldari Yesodic Nomads Corp Triumvirate.	Posted - 2006.10.23 07:51:00 - [57] Originally by: Ernest Graefenberg Originally by: Breed Love Insane prices are definitely the number 1 reason. What good is insurance for when your fittings cost more than the ship itself. Losing a t2 fitted t1 ship is not that different from losing a hac with modules being this expensive. The competitive edge will always be expensive, and will always be in the upper bracket of what is expendable income. Prices have nothing to do with the modus operandi for engaging - change prices and the base level for a competitive ship shifts upwards, to the realm that it stays in the same proportion to income / wealth. You are right and wrong at the same time. You are right it's a matter of scale. You are wrong if you think it doesn't affect avoiding fights. If I am in tech1 fit thorax I may take a risk and go for 1vs3 fight just for fun. If I am in tech2 fit deimos I will think twice because my 1min fun fight will cost me two weeks of boring ISK earning.
Antoinette Civari Black Omega Security	Posted - 2006.10.23 08:25:00 - [58] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Large fleet battles (for me) were fun a year and a half ago when battles would range from blasting away at 15km up to around 80km, but then T2 ammo came along... Even without t2 ammo, the usual fighting distance was between 80 to 120km. o0
LaCoHa Caldari Deep Space Navy Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2006.10.23 09:30:00 - [59] Edited by: LaCoHa on 23/10/2006 09:32:54 Yeah. Some one mentioned this as well, but how in the hell are smaller groups of BS's or Hac's suppose to deal with Carriers?? That is yet another reason for increased blobbing - You simply can not deal with a carrier without blobbing. Or am I wrong? Edit* Or for that matter Motherships and/or Titans (dreads do not scare me though - well the Moros does) "I just slaughtered 28 people in that game of Battlefield 2 and never died. Man my e-p33n feels huge."
Xs 142	Posted - 2006.10.23 09:37:00 - [60] Did you ever see ANY movie with space combat? Blobbing is what they do. It's called an "army" Originally by: Oveur Eternally yours, The other dumbass
Smagd Encina Technologies Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.23 09:37:00 - [61] The one thing I liked about the MC war was that for me it wasn't ever a question of winning a battle (sorry fleet commanders :) but of how much damage I could inflict before I got sent to my next clone. If you're facing a fleet like theirs, you only bring gear you don't mind losing, and that's exactly the kind of mindset that'll get you good battles I guess. Could be a little different if I didn't get the choice of avoiding a battle, like for instance defending a POS. -- Thukkers do
Kaiu Hinkledolph and K Associates The SUdden Death Squad	Posted - 2006.10.23 09:46:00 - [62] Didnt this guy quit already? ____________________ MOGarmy
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.23 10:02:00 - [63] Originally by: Antoinette Civari Originally by: Gabriel Karade Large fleet battles (for me) were fun a year and a half ago when battles would range from blasting away at 15km up to around 80km, but then T2 ammo came along... Even without t2 ammo, the usual fighting distance was between 80 to 120km. o0 Not in FoE times ---------- - Office Linebacker -
UGWidowmaker Setenta Corp Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.23 10:24:00 - [64] bahhh wheterer its a Dread or carier or Punisher its just ships i lost em all and i will again... I will make u into biosource...
Polinus	Posted - 2006.10.23 10:29:00 - [65] People must understand that the "Its only a game " does not work with MMO. If I earn 15$ an hour of work.. and need 10 hours of game to raise money to havea fight ready ship. I am loosing pottentially up to 150 bucks. The time I pass playing eve I could be earning more money in RL or doing something else. So in MMO its time investment! People don't want to loose that! Thta makes almost everyone want to tank.. not gank.. make all this over cautious fights etc... That is why I propose gangs of Damage/isk ships.. even if they are pure crap when 1v1. A fleet of destroiers and t1 frigs can deal more damage per isk than high tech fleets. so i think thaty is the only place where fun is still available. There must be a way to coprs to go The ZERG way and be competitive by just overhelming non stop t1 cheap ships attacks. If this tatics can be made viable... it can solve a lot of the issues.
Polinus	Posted - 2006.10.23 10:51:00 - [66] Also... there must be a way to jump into short range distance of an enemy fleet. Somehow. It must be doable! And by doable I mean with some smart moves and without needing a miracle to syrvive the proccess.
Estelle Matsuko Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.23 11:14:00 - [67] Originally by: Polinus Also... there must be a way to jump into short range distance of an enemy fleet. Somehow. It must be doable! And by doable I mean with some smart moves and without needing a miracle to syrvive the proccess. There is. Let me check my notes. Ah yes. Covert ops and recce ships. Tricky little blighters.
Kronn Blackthorne 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.23 11:16:00 - [68] Edited by: Kronn Blackthorne on 23/10/2006 11:18:29 oki let say u fly a fully faction fitted ishatr , u are not affraid to lose it and go fight many oppoenents . u are killin npc'er , they call support , u manage to get out , u still go on killing spree by playin this game how it should be i mean getting a clue of what pvp is ... so u get my point of view , now u succeded to defeat lot of opponents in 0.0 , went through bubble / dictor camp by using scanner and so , u go to a low sec system , u see local full of pirates , no bubble since u know it s empire , u see them campin the gate where u go .... still no prob for u , u have instas .. u insta to gate .... Hello sir , u can t jump , but u are number 1 in queue ... u will get WTFBBQ'ed in 5 sec by the pirates around u .... enjoy this game ... where is the fun in loosin ur 500 mil ship to a ******in CCP joke ?
Polinus	Posted - 2006.10.23 11:42:00 - [69] Good example. But is based on a situation where one side already does not want confrontation. I tought we were talking about two fleets supposed to engage.. but won't do it because of cost. BTW this was damm predictable to happen In WW1 Britain And germany build up huge naval fleets. In a very tight arms race where each side would build better and better and bigger ships to counter enemies. But no one would use them cause of fear to loose them (both sides). So all ships sat still for almost whole war. Until Jutland batte were German navy tried to lure Home Fleet with a decoy, but was dicovered and a huge battle erupted.
Usotsuki	Posted - 2006.10.23 11:42:00 - [70] I think the problem is bottlenecks. Jump gates, warp end points. Camping becomes compulsory because the advantage it nets you is huge. The travel system is long overdue for an audit. And the whole cloaked-while-jumping thing is a blatant fiction breaking cop out to come up with a better solution to jump gate lag and gate camping.
Samirol Ore Mongers	Posted - 2006.10.23 11:47:00 - [71] Originally by: Kaiu Didnt this guy quit already? isnt ebay ftw? Billboard Project
Amiable Quinn	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:06:00 - [72] Some ideas (they may be terrible, but, hey I'm trying): 1. Tripling the number of connections from every star system. Have 9-10 gates per system. 2. Have gates from Empire directly into deep 0.0. 3. Sentries in low sec should have mission sentry range (250 km). The goal is dispersion, right now it is possible to hold large swathes of 0.0 by manning a single choke point. If instead there were 15 ways to get into your territory it would serve be a much greater incentive to attack an opposition at multiple fronts. This disperses the load, encourages smaller engagements and makes it a real PvP challenge to hold 0.0 territory. I'm not sure if this is fair to the current alliance structure though, but it may encourage folks to have less superblob battles.
Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:20:00 - [73] Edited by: Ernest Graefenberg on 23/10/2006 12:21:45 Originally by: ArchenTheGreat You are right and wrong at the same time. You are right it's a matter of scale. You are wrong if you think it doesn't affect avoiding fights. If I am in tech1 fit thorax I may take a risk and go for 1vs3 fight just for fun. If I am in tech2 fit deimos I will think twice because my 1min fun fight will cost me two weeks of boring ISK earning. Oh, consequences are definitely the motivation behind avoiding fights. Removing or lowering consequences isn't however a viable option, unless we remove all ability to buy more powerful and expensive gear/hulls. Death penalization is here to stay. Avoidance mechanics and the way actual combat plays out could easily be revamped though without changing the whole face of EvE. And it's a necessary step getting rid of this blobbing/avoidance tripe that we're mired in for now.
slothe Caldari Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:29:00 - [74] maybe in larger engagements fleet commanders should speak to each other and allow opposition fleet to jump in and load before engaging.
Baleine4Nerver Jubblies	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:32:00 - [75] have read most of the replies, but havent time to go through them all to see if anyone has posted my perspective.. I to believe that PvP is on the downward slope, mainly due to the "if you cant afford to lose it" mentality. I also agree with that mentality, its no fun making isk to lose it in few seconds to sniper gang when your primary. And yes gangs invariably sit on either side of gate waiting for some strategic advantage.. it blows. I blame all the above on prices, if ships and mods were more disposable, people would be more inclined to fight and throw them away. I'm loaded, but i still feel the pain spending big. for example.. recently bought and setup a sniping mega, with 7 * 425 Tech II rail.. and all the tech II paraphanalia to get 200k Plus range with it. I was horrified at how much it cost, the mods cost more than the ship. I think its high time, CCP took a hand in controlling the issue. I know thye made the sand pit and let us lose to control the market etc, but its out of hand, we need mummy to guide us through.. and somehow make prices come down. Whether that is seeding lots and lots of BPO's I am personally not sure of this, as the way the lottery works the same people would probably get them. Or the new people who get them find they cant produce so sell to the monoply for a quick isk injection. Maybe making NPC corps sell them (rushes to pull on asbestos pants). Either way, something needs to be done. ===============================================
Polinus	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:36:00 - [76] Make gates have a force field of 5-7 km around them protecting anything inside. That will give time to fleets jump in completely. to keep the possibility of ambushing.. the ship can only warp out when it leaves the field.
LaCoHa Caldari Deep Space Navy Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:44:00 - [77] Edited by: LaCoHa on 23/10/2006 12:45:23 Originally by: slothe maybe in larger engagements fleet commanders should speak to each other and allow opposition fleet to jump in and load before engaging. he wins most realistic solution prize. I dont mean that sarcastically - if the server's stability/capability do not increase, then thats honestly the best option. ala middle school rules: "meet me at the park after school.." sucks, but I think it is true. "I just slaughtered 28 people in that game of Battlefield 2 and never died. Man my e-p33n feels huge."
Redbad Minmatar Vengeance of the Fallen Imperium Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:58:00 - [78] My hope is set on factional warfare being somehow profitable. Perhaps factional missions that involve PvP. A sort of defend and capture the flag all at the same time with some subgoals in them that can earn individuals ISK. Sort of: get ISK for killing a factional aligned player and fullfilling Fational goals, small or big. Should be fun and good for PvP. --- embrace the fire from the East.
Capt Harlock Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:02:00 - [79] Eve has always been trench warfare. Has been for me for the last 2.5 years, when was it not? Everyone sits in their trench (safespot)for hours and hours until they see their enemy in no mans land (gate) as the enemy has dwindling numbers because they have been waiting so long and some brightspark on T.S has decided to have fun b4 the last of his fleet logs off. Then chaaaaaaarge. Then begins a big game of hope my name doesn't begin with A B or C dammit mine begins with C laaaaaaaaag look at entering station message for 20 mins. Then complain about how i couldn't play paper rock scisors in space because my screen wasn't moving he he.
Polinus	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:12:00 - [80] Trench warfare.. mmm that gave me aan idea. WW1 was trench warfare.. exacty like eve is now. How did germans fixed that to WW2? Armored spearhead. We need something capable of being almost invulnerable at long range (but vulnerable at short range) and able to steadly (and resoanably fast) advance thowards enemy lines. Then the other type of ships follow. I don't know how to do that on current game mechanics. But I think a ship to fill the role of Panzers would solve this problem as panzers did in Real life.
Krulla Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Black Reign Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:17:00 - [81] Originally by: LaCoHa That was before 250 million dollar average hac prices. Interesting. You're paying for your HACs in real life dollars? I pay for mine using ISK, the EvE currency.
Soraya Silvermoon Never'where	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:24:00 - [82] The THING that determins the amount of fights in this game are: 1. Predictabillitie 2. Balls of the pilot engaging. With the TII and the advanced skills. And all the "balancing" changes that are being made the game gets to predictable and dependant on skillpoints. We need a game where a gang gets confident eonugh that they will win so they engage. But at the same time we need the game to be so unpredictable that the enemy can turn the battle around maby by the flip of an extra card. Sneaky countersetup or whatever. Tilt the game towards Tank and DPS and it gets really predictable. And the fight is about who got the most skillpoints in 1vs1 and it will depends on numbers in pvp wich will cause blobs.
LaCoHa Caldari Deep Space Navy Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:27:00 - [83] Originally by: Krulla Originally by: LaCoHa That was before 250 million dollar average hac prices. Interesting. You're paying for your HACs in real life dollars? I pay for mine using ISK, the EvE currency. haha. yeah isk. And to the guy with the brilliant idea for some sort of distance closing 'tank'. I LOVE it. Maybe another CS type ship. Has built in disruptors that disallow enemies to get a lock outside of 30k or so. Sick resists, not much offensive ability, if any, and able to equip gang mods. nice "I just slaughtered 28 people in that game of Battlefield 2 and never died. Man my e-p33n feels huge."
Polinus	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:00:00 - [84] It could be even called Panzer, Sherman, T34 and churchill (to use the names of a few real life exampes of the class :P) It had a great effect on real war. it hink would work in game as well. Also we need a reson for teh fleets to not run away. In real life armies don't run away because they need to stay to protect something.
Miss Overlord Gallente EUROPEANS	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:06:00 - [85] i am selling the rights to a corp i created called Zerg Inc - bidding starts at 500m (yeah its inactive but can be reactivated at will) as for PVP being lame depends how u look at it

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