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PvP is getting lame

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KnightCrawler adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.22 22:07:00 - [1] I have been in eve since 2003 and lately I have seen a problem with medium and large scale pvp. I am Not talking about lag or technicaly problems. People are being way to cautious when deciding to pvp or not and forgetting that this is a game and its meant to be enjoyed. In the last year or so I have seen a disturbing trend. Both fleets/ gangs stay 1 jump away from each other waiting for the other one to make a move so they will have a strategic advantage. A pvp game become a waiting game, both sides will sometimes wait hours for the other to make a move. A lot of the times one side will say screw it and log off or leave. This is a game, people are supposed to have fun, not sit at a safespot or gate for hours at a time waiting so that the side your on will win the fight. I am a very wreckless player and I lose ships more than anyone I know, but I am having a lot of fun doing it. I remember a long time ago people would jump into battle and not worry about losing their ship. I feel that this game is changing for the worst where people dont want to take any risks at all on something thats not real. The whole point of the game is to do stuff that your not able to do in real life, which includes shooting people and blowing people up or getting yourself blown up. I am always told that it doesnt matter who wins as long as everyone has fun. Its seems recently winning is more important than having fun.
Xelios Minmatar Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.10.22 22:12:00 - [2] We haven't been afraid to fight, even outnumbered. It's meant losing more ships for us, but it's also so much more fun than waiting for exactly the right situation before daring to fight. Hell just yesterday we took on 31 with our gang of 14, we ended up losing a few battleships but so what? They're just tools to have fun, and have fun we did.
Samirol Ore Mongers	Posted - 2006.10.22 22:15:00 - [3] tux is making it so eve is more blobby (hp increase anyone?)
lofty29 Praxiteles Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.22 22:15:00 - [4] I feel your pain. I've avoided alliances alot recently due to the waiting games, in favour of crazy-assed suicide PVP in syndicate (Like, ganking crap infront of its corp/alliance mates and making a run for it) as I find it a crapton more fun. Sure I die quite a bit, but who cares?! Its a game --- Praxitele's Inc. is Recruiting!
LaCoHa Caldari Deep Space Navy Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2006.10.22 22:17:00 - [5] Edited by: LaCoHa on 22/10/2006 22:17:13 Originally by: KnightCrawler People are being way to cautious when deciding to pvp or not and forgetting that this is a game and its meant to be enjoyed. That was before 250 million dollar average hac prices.
Cmdr Sy Off Balance Sheet Entity	Posted - 2006.10.22 22:18:00 - [6] Maybe it's the guns on everyone's ships costing half the price of a HAC, and the "don't fly it if you can't afford it" rule breaking down when you know the FC will warp to covert to land at 150km range? Or maybe it's just the current alliance culture being risk-averse? I recall this time last year, NBSI and -V- set new benchmarks in the art of creatively suiciding fleets. Maybe the current alliance culture is generally in a cautious phase which will pass with time? I wouldn't know. Bailed out of the politics 10 months ago. But those would be my first guesses. Give it some time?
Nymos Celtic Anarchy Black Reign Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.22 22:19:00 - [7] Edited by: Nymos on 22/10/2006 22:25:02 Edited by: Nymos on 22/10/2006 22:24:16 Edited by: Nymos on 22/10/2006 22:20:06 could be that these people fly stuff that violates the rule of thumb "don't fly what you can't afford to lose"? considering that a t2 fitted gunship costs an arm, a leg and both ******* :( or the pain of spending a lot of time running back to jita or wherever to get new equipment. for me the latter one is the most painful part. if i lose my stuff i'll replace it, but noone replaces time wasted for 30 jumps to eve's favorite junkyard and 30 back. and i enjoy neither instaing there to be "faster" nor afk-autopiloting. still, even this doesn't stop me from jumpin' into the fire if i'm ordered to do so edit: it might happen to prevent the other fleet from e-peen stroking their k/d ratio. just an idea edit2: since when is testicle an obscene word? lol... if you guess what the *s mean, men usually have two of it, some have none and i know someone who has a sweaty left one according to his own forum post hehe. edit3: interesting, singular is not censored. pfft. --
Bohoba Caldari The Dark Angles	Posted - 2006.10.22 22:23:00 - [8] I have seen this to but whats the fun of jumping staring at a black screen then ending up in a station our warping into the enemy waiting for targets to appear then ending up in a station never even seeing the enemy nothing on the logs just a death mail when the game can Handel 10v10 even I am sure things will get better but dying without even having seen your enemy is no fun for me thats for sure. Get Into the Game it makes it fun for all
Xelios Minmatar Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.10.22 22:27:00 - [9] The t2 prices are a load of crap, they contribute to this problem quite a bit. The other thing is the insane sniper ranges these days. A short range gang has pretty much no chance against a sniper gang, even if you manage to get a dictor on top of it the whole gang warps out as soon as the dictor enters the grid. You might catch one or two of them and lose 3 or 4 in the process. I've spent months training to use t2 ships and modules, and I want to use them, but when a HAC plus fittings costs me damn near 250 mil of course I'm going to be cautious with it. I don't have the luxury of having a license to print isk, aka t2 bpo. So it's either be cautious or fly around in t1 stuff. Invention isn't going to help this much, so it looks like we're stuck with cautious blob fights for the forseeable future. Or you can do what we do, sod the odds and just go in firing.
LaCoHa Caldari Deep Space Navy Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2006.10.22 22:27:00 - [10] Originally by: Nymos it might happen to prevent the other fleet from e-peen stroking their k/d ratio. just an idea I have now heard this twice today, and even in context I can not figure out what it means - "E-Peen" Thanks.
Nir	Posted - 2006.10.22 22:28:00 - [11] I'd say killboards play a big part in this. The race for the biggest ego, both on personal and corporate level.. it causes people to take less risks.
Nymos Celtic Anarchy Black Reign Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.22 22:34:00 - [12] Originally by: LaCoHa Originally by: Nymos it might happen to prevent the other fleet from e-peen stroking their k/d ratio. just an idea I have now heard this twice today, and even in context I can not figure out what it means - "E-Peen" Thanks. urbandictionary is your friend :) real great to find explanations for acronyms, web-lingo, slang etc. --
LaCoHa Caldari Deep Space Navy Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2006.10.22 22:41:00 - [13] Quote from Urbandictionary.com Usage example of "E-Peen": "I just slaughtered 28 people in that game of Battlefield 2 and never died. Man my e-p33n feels huge." haha. that is awesome, thanks for the link. "E-Peen" "I just slaughtered 28 people in that game of Battlefield 2 and never died. Man my e-p33n feels huge." "E-Peen"
Admai Sket	Posted - 2006.10.22 22:42:00 - [14] Originally by: LaCoHa Quote from Urbandictionary.com Usage example of "E-Peen": "I just slaughtered 28 people in that game of Battlefield 2 and never died. Man my e-p33n feels huge." haha. that is awesome, thanks for the link. lmao MY SIG: Linkage Funny thread.
Pestillence Chav-Scum	Posted - 2006.10.22 22:47:00 - [15] Blob inducing game changes and silly high t2 prices to blame perhaps?
Lord Vak	Posted - 2006.10.22 22:49:00 - [16] It's sad that Carebearism has taken over so many major alliances in EVE. We (my corp) do occasionaly some roaming in well-known hotspots and there has never ever been a question "What if i loose my ship?". Every single one reporting to the Op is aware and willing to lose their ships for the sake of some small gang PVP fun. Last time it was good bubble trap by D2 (yes, we knew that 2 pods in empty 0.0 is a trap) and after the gank we had the best laughs ever. We lost somewhere near 70M of stuff ( insurances have been taken from this amount ), and yes i know its not much for us seasoned players but there were many pilots flying ships/fittings that had drained their entire wallet. So if someone claims that ISK is the problem then i'd say, go 100% carebear and stay in 0.5 and above :) there you can make all the money you want and never ever have to lose a ship again, for the rest whom plan to stay in low sec/0.0, forget the stabs and fit some PVP gear and join the fun :)
Father Weebles Panzershrek Blood Raiders Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:02:00 - [17] That was before 1 Large tech2 gun costed 16mil apiece.... "Welcome to EVE, where inflation is out of control."
anyname isfine	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:04:00 - [18] It's easy to agree with a lot of this, but Quote: waiting for the other one to make a move so they will have a strategic advantage. It seems prudent and I would not fly with a commander who isn't looking for every tactical and strategic advantage.
TheDevilsJury principle of motion R i s e	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:09:00 - [19] Originally by: anyname isfine It's easy to agree with a lot of this, but Quote: waiting for the other one to make a move so they will have a strategic advantage. It seems prudent and I would not fly with a commander who isn't looking for every tactical and strategic advantage. Yes, but there are other ways of generating tactical and strategic advantages that don't involve sitting at SS or the other side of the gate. I think the mark of a really good FC is one who can find these advantages even when the most obvious action causes disadvatage. ----------------------- sig below Originally by: ISD I don't think I've ever seen anyone hijack their own thread before
Master OlavPancrazio Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:13:00 - [20] CCP can alleviate these problems by seeding more hac and t2 bpos. Why am I going to rush into battle when it takes nearly a day of ratting to pay for my hac loss?
Coasterbrian Celestial Fleet Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:14:00 - [21] Primary reasons (in order of cause): 1) Ever increasing price of tech II ****. 2) The fact that the eve populace seems to regard kill ratios as a measure of skill as of late. 3) Fear of lag. ---------- I say what I mean, but I don't always mean what I say.
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:15:00 - [22] Remove local in 0.0 and things will change...
Buxaroo Black Dwarf Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:18:00 - [23] Originally by: LaCoHa Edited by: LaCoHa on 22/10/2006 22:17:13 Originally by: KnightCrawler People are being way to cautious when deciding to pvp or not and forgetting that this is a game and its meant to be enjoyed. That was before 250 million dollar average hac prices. Aint that the $%^& truth. Reason why I have been going out in my scorpion in fleet ops instead of my rook which I want to because the scorp is insured and if it goes kaboom, no biggie, just insurance and mods. Guess what? Lost my scorp this morning because I pressed warp and it took 20 seconds for me to start warping and the hostiles torp hit me right before I warped. If I hadn't that lag I would still be in my scorp with it's hypnos jammers Also guess what? The D2 guys also logged for the exact same reason they even said in local that the fight would have to happen later because of the lag. See, that's whats so damn ****y. You don't win battles anymore by strategy or whits or good decisions, but by whoever doesn't get module lag as bad or warps in at the right time. That is what is messing up pvp. If I lost my Cerberus with all its fittings because I wasn't paying attention or jumped into a gatecamp without a scout then thats my mistake. But if I loose my ship because of severe lag then that's the server's fault and not my own. These things have to be fixed pronto. Hell, put off Kali for a month while you guys work on the code or hardware for this because I would rather have a stable server and less lag so that I can actually PLAY the game. I lvoe CCP and this game, and I am always the first cheerleader to step up and give CCP a pat on the back. But this lag is just unbearable. Now I see why people are leaving alliances and big corps because the fleet actions aren't an action anymore. The other day I went to empire to do soem low sec pvp and me and my corp mate ganged up with someone who is ex-BoB and he said the exact same thing: fleet battles suck nowadays.
RevelationX	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:20:00 - [24] SiSi is the cure, when im in there i just suicide my Rev into random massive fleets. There is so much carnage in SiSi so i never leave "But I, being poor, have only my dreams, I have spread my dreams under your feet, Tread softly because you tread on my dreams"
infraX Caldari Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:26:00 - [25] I feel the problem is probably a bit of everything mentioned here. Pride of not losing ships or plain old killboard whoring and the fact that decent stuff in EVE is expensive. T1 cheap throwaway stuff is all well and good but most people want to stay competetive and the average T2 fitted bs can cost anything up to 200mil (or more) and to get on to the T2 cruiser ladder; anything from say 120 to 300mil with fittings. The problem is, it takes the average player (and most people are average players, not uber rich t2 lottery winners or complex hoarders, ccp) a fair amount of time to earn that kind of isk. A month of grinding can flash before a players eyes in what feels like about 10 seconds in the heat of the battle as the ship bursts into flames and eventually pops in a brilliant, blue flash. A lot of people like their implants too, and while the prices have come down recently, a full set of +3's is still 100mil. That, and with the introduction of interdictors and the increased lag recently, it's even easier to lose your pod after your ship blows up. I realise that eve is meant to be harsh, and a loss is meant to hurt, but seriously, how MUCH hurt do you possibly want? I personally think a whole month (for the average joe doing his missions or whatever) per 'extra life' is a tad ridiculous. No wonder people are "being cautious" and don't want to engage so often. I often wonder if this is quite how harsh CCP wanted the results of pvp to be. Sure wars are great fun, and they can be completely devestating to a corp or alliance but I can't help thinking that CCP isn't looking at the bigger picture in that there are a lot of players in the game that aren't rich!
Audrea Momentum.	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:30:00 - [26] Yeah I'd agree that prices are a major problem... I really want to go out pvp in Ishtar, but when the thing costs overy 200mil a piece, I would think twice about buying/taking it to pvp :( Not because of the loss, but because to replace it doesnt take just 3 hours ratting, but whole day, if not more. Thats what changed since the older days - prices increased, but ways ot make money (play time) stayed the same ------------------ Save Tranquility!
John Blackthorn Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:31:00 - [27] Many good points here. Two things cause less pvp. Lack for isk and lag. Just yesterday I was at a gate camp protecting our home system. Enemy fleet jumps in. I have effects, sounds off, local closed, over-view closed. I'm on a very high speed connection using a computer system with very good resources. And what happens? My screen frezzes. Next I know is i'm 1/2 armor. Then 1/2 strucutre. The only thing that saved me is because i started my booster just as they jumped in. When I saw 1/2 armor I went ahead and pressed warp. Didn't even see myself warp out. Just appeared at the belt. NO one, NO one wants to fight when they can't defend/fight back. Waking up in a station and not being able to fire a shot is real ****er. Second issue of isk is pretty simple. You spend a week or two working every night to be able to afford a hac. Then loose it to the above situation. But the strange thing is.. the art of war is to make it so that your enemy can't afford to continue right? -John
Lord Vak Amarr Parhelion Industries	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:31:00 - [28] Oh and about HAC prices, yes they are too high, and no, they should not drop them artificialy. I think it really makes things just more intresting, since you really have to think "Do i REALLY want to try my faction fitted Vaga, since it could cost me weeks worth of NPC:ing? Or just go whit tempest and have some cheap fun?". If they drop the prices and and make them insurable they ruin the fun part in it, the fact you have to choose between pwnage/money and Fun/replaceable.
John Blackthorn Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:35:00 - [29] BTW: most pvp consits of one or two gates jumping through getting aggro on someone then 10+ ships jump thourgh and pounce the guy/gal. Everyone does it, but even if you do a 2vs2 normally the fight ends with 2 of them warping off and hiding because you didn't bring enophe tacklers to hold them down.. AND FINALLY: the new patch will increase ship hitpoints and extenders/armor plates. which is going to make it even more difficult ot engage in 1v1 ish fights.
ragewind Caldari VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:47:00 - [30] there are a few problems with PVP T2 prices suck simple the number of BPO's seeded months ago wont ever suport the number of players usesing them now the member bases has jumped up 2 fold, lag dread ops/ fleet battels and even small engagments are a pain now with the current server performance. aliances and corps seem to be small or mid size less large aliances seem to be forming see all the old maps showing several large aliances of 4,5,6K members just dosnt happen ------------------------------------ Dragon the patch to optimise EVE. Welcome to Tranquillity the optimised snail Please wait 4 minuets to jump war targets are 2 seconds away.

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