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Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:28:00 - [1] Yeah, I know this isn't the usual announcement or political diatribe we're so fond of in this forum area; I figured today I'd do something a little different and see where it goes. I figure it's time to take the communities temperature on the topic of Free Space, and their thoughts on it. It's been a long time since there has been a successful area of free space, the most famous example being what we had with the Coalition of Free Stars. I know there have been others, but I'm not familiar with them. It's been a while since we've seen this sort of thing, so here are a set of questions for you: - Can it still be done? - Should it be done for profit, or for ideals? - Is it right to do it for profit? and... - What would be required for Free Space to succeed these days? - Who is in the position to make it happen? - Where would it be most likely to succeed? - Do independants deserve Free Space if it can be done? Fire and flame away people! Nothing in life is quite so sweet as the taste of payback.
Dortock The Scarlet Harmonic	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:37:00 - [2] Hmm, it can be done, but it's tough since there are not many entities out there that would stop mining their ore to go help an alliance that they do not believe in or are in just for the isk.. I honestly think it's possible if you have the right leaders at the top, but it wouldn't be worth the effort. King Tinfoil Hatter
shadyfox99 Caldari Sniggerdly	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:39:00 - [3] Edited by: shadyfox99 on 22/10/2006 23:40:40 I was never involved with CFS, so really i have no experience with "free space". Unless you consider Curse, Pure Blind, Syndicate (parts) "free space". I think, however, that what you are talking about is a set area that someone operates, and says to the general public "this area is 'free space' come and have fun, but follow our rules." I think free space COULD be setup, but it would definetly need a strong military. (to protect from pirates, etc, etc.) But how would you keep decent PVP'ers in what would generally be considered a "carebear" region? Well I think you would need to pay them, first of all, and offer them something. (free ships? discounts on tech II stuff?) But of course you would need the isk to offer incentives to the PVP'ers, so in that regard you would need some sort of income from the region that you are operating as FS. If you mean TRUE free space, where there is no governing body, but a large groups of people who operate there, AND defend that area together, then I don't think its as likely to happen. (defend against pirates, since its free space, any other alliance would be able to move through there, etc) Maybe someone could define "free space", because just writing this is making my head hurt thinking about it. Edit: maybe an entire Region run and "controlled" by ISS would be considered free space? Originally by: HostageTaker Use your brain and use your main! OMFG I just rhymed!
Talon SilverHawk Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:39:00 - [4] - What would be required for Free Space to succeed these days? A strong, willing organised fighting force, Without that it would never succeed Tal What goes around comes around
shivan Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:41:00 - [5] If you want a great example of free space you need look no further than CVA and ISS.
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:49:00 - [6] Edited by: Rod Blaine on 22/10/2006 23:49:28 You either control space and are able to enforce things, or you don't control space and end up like ISS: in trouble over your carefree acceptance policies from day one. While the latter comes fairly close to the essence of freespace, it's not sustainable. The former is, but that's not freespace. Hence there will be no sustained freespace. Old blog
n sx The Tidemark Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.23 00:19:00 - [7] In the last 24 hours, IAC has returned to it's free space policy. This has been the way we've operated since we first moved to 0.0. IAC constantly works to provide infrastructure and supplies for itself and also neutral pilots operating in the area. We also actively patrol the area for hostile gangs, though as with all low security areas there are those that love to grief. All charges/ISK taken from outpost revenues is reinvested in the area, be it defence or infrastructure. Between ISS's Marginis and Tycho and IAC's The Distillery and The Bottleshop outposts it is fast becoming a civilised region.
Dutarro Kydance Radiant Industries Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.23 00:53:00 - [8] The choice between free space and closed space isn't sharply defined; there are a spectrum of space usage policies that alliances can choose: - NBSI or NRLI? - Sell access rights, and if so what pricing scheme? - Is access tied to corp/alliance standings? - What are criteria for setting positive/negative standings? - How aggressively will claimed space be patrolled? Ideology should not be the driving force behind these choices, though unfortunately this debate is often dominated by ideologues on either side. The most advantageous mix of policies will depend on the local geography and political climate. *opinions stated are not necessarily those of my corporation or alliance
Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.23 02:22:00 - [9] Edited by: Avernus on 23/10/2006 02:23:00 Originally by: Rod Blaine Edited by: Rod Blaine on 22/10/2006 23:49:28 You either control space and are able to enforce things, or you don't control space and end up like ISS: in trouble over your carefree acceptance policies from day one. While the latter comes fairly close to the essence of freespace, it's not sustainable. The former is, but that's not freespace. Hence there will be no sustained freespace. n sx (from IAC) brings up some good points though, I have to admit that I didn't initially think of them when making this post. From what I've seen, they have been pretty successful with free space, alongside CVA, and oddly UK as well. They might not be considered heavy weights, but I can say from personal experience that their lads do know how to put up a good fight for their turf. Edit, to reference n sx being in IAC. Nothing in life is quite so sweet as the taste of payback.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.10.23 02:33:00 - [10] What the hell are you playing at Avernus? Haven't you already been there, bought the t-shirt the postcards and written the guide book? ... or are you simply a masochist. FIX had a hand in killing CFS, and now you want to bring it back from the dead? I could scarcely believe my eyes when I read this thread.
Wierd Beard Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.23 02:38:00 - [11] FFS!!!
DeltaH Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.23 02:48:00 - [12] Edited by: DeltaH on 23/10/2006 02:49:55 I don't understand this whole free space thing... A lot of people complain that there is no room in 0.0 for small corporations or alliances anymore. I think that is bunk. LV, D2, BoB, etc all rent their space out one way or another. All these small corporations or alliances have to do is drop an eve-mail to the proper representitives. Is paying rent that much of a put off? I know I'm biased... but if I wanted to be a 0.0 miner this is what I'd do in an instant. Mine all day long as much as I want without guilt trips to join a PvP gang from the alliance. On top of that, almost every alliance has a refining tax so it isn't like you aren't already paying rent to be a part of an alliance. -DeltaH ---
DeltaH Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.23 02:49:00 - [13] Edited by: DeltaH on 23/10/2006 02:49:42 stupid forum ---
Entilzah Valen Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.23 02:51:00 - [14] Originally by: Wierd Beard FFS!!! QFT Your signature is inappropriate. Please read the forum rules before reposting- Tirg yay
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.10.23 02:53:00 - [15] /emote bkmrks this thread as future source of endless amusement....
Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.23 02:58:00 - [16] Originally by: Nez Perces /emote bkmrks this thread as future source of endless amusement.... Good idea. Nothing in life is quite so sweet as the taste of payback.
Droewa Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.23 02:59:00 - [17] ..... so.. who won?
Lazydog Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.23 03:27:00 - [18] Originally by: Nez Perces /emote bkmrks this thread as future source of endless amusement.... OH No! My eve vids When PvP Met Mr Sansha
nickky01 No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.23 03:35:00 - [19] i for one would LOVE the chance to visit FIX space again anyways: - Can it still be done? yes and no...if you can protect the people who are exploring/visting 0.0 for the first time, yes. but you'll always have ppl who want a system to themselves for ratting or whatever, or ppl who want to setup POS's...with the carebears comes pirates/(dunno the word for pirates who arn't scared of 0.0) who want to kill them... - Should it be done for profit, or for ideals? both...set an objective (i.e. outpost or bunch of T2 items) charge corps to use 0.0 space - Is it right to do it for profit? if you defend your space, and operate stations, yeah it is right to do it for profit. i mean...why not? - What would be required for Free Space to succeed these days? a good defense...always have gangs ready at a notice, ect. - Who is in the position to make it happen? IMO a strong leader, i.e. a guy who can call for a gang and get EVERYONE active to fight...not a doormat basically - Where would it be most likely to succeed? a system or sytems only a few jumps from empire...mark deep 0.0 as very hostile and enter at your own risk kinda space - Do independants deserve Free Space if it can be done? to much to drink, dont really know what this means. Fire and flame away people! one time you got drunk and asked me out on a date
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.10.23 03:35:00 - [20] .... something just ocurred to me, doesn't free space seem like flavour of the month right now? its certainly been in the news or entities promoting it have been on the front page.... Well there has been UK fighting the "ebil" pirates in 9uy, and ISS fell over backwards to help them. Even CVA couldn't help but drop the RP and rush to support their sworn enemies. Then ofc there is the IAC, who suddenly had a million and one friends to call upon once their outpost was threatened, including CVA who again 'dropped' the RP to fly alonsided s*****dly and people like The Priory. (Incidently The Priory seems very much like a little bit of extra muscle brought in to strengthen the ranks...[anybody remember Krom, don't worry if you don't..]..) ISS has been in the news over the last couple of days, although for all the wrong reasons, yet they are still viewed as a 'shining example' for the free space ideal. .. and probably the more flamboyant and trendy news item is Celestial Apocalypse "opening up" Fountain as free space.. giggle*.. and not only that but starting its own alliance ... I imagine they are expecting to get pretty busy on the standings front... trying to pvp and keep standings with visiting corporations would quickly overrun the corp standings mechanics. All in all if it hadn't been for the BoB vs ASCN war it would pretty much have been Free Space month. Ofc now there is this thread too....
Audrea Momentum.	Posted - 2006.10.23 04:16:00 - [21] Well CVA do it successfuly for quite a long time now, depite all the difficulties rised by not operating NBSI. Most organizations and people would give up on that, its too much hassle, for no advantage or profit. The only ones who do it, do it for the ideal.. so no, I'd say its not profitable to do it... ------------------ Save Tranquility!
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.10.23 04:24:00 - [22] Originally by: Audrea Well CVA do it successfuly for quite a long time now, depite all the difficulties rised by not operating NBSI. ofc.. they had the advantage of operating out of npc stations.. until they put up their outpost that is... It is really no surprise that CVA are free space idealists (one has to wonder, where their heart truly lies.. Amarr RP or free space)..... Imperial Dreams is at their core.. and they were in the good ol' (yes you guessed it) CFS.
Rainbow Jesus Minmatar Grief Tactics Amalgamated	Posted - 2006.10.23 04:25:00 - [23] Originally by: Audrea Well CVA do it successfuly for quite a long time now, depite all the difficulties rised by not operating NBSI. Most organizations and people would give up on that, its too much hassle, for no advantage or profit. The only ones who do it, do it for the ideal.. so no, I'd say its not profitable to do it... Dirty Amarrians, they should ALL FALL!
Entilzah Valen Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.23 04:53:00 - [24] Your signature is inappropriate. Please read the forum rules before reposting- Tirg yay
Seleene Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.23 05:40:00 - [25] "Free space"? Avernus, stop starting threads where you sound like a tree-hugging hippie, man. - Movie: 9UY - Got Fighters?
Marko Debreault 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.23 05:53:00 - [26]
thetwilitehour Omega Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.23 06:16:00 - [27] I think the single major stumbling block is people want to have free space as an aside from their real goals or as part of a patchwork of objectives they are trying to accomplish. TBB was trying to make money and provide free space, when their money making became an issue and someone hired MC it sort of got wrecked forever. If you had a strong pvp corp with a decent amount of skills and assets that actually had a goal of providing free space for eve players theres no reason it couldnt happen, but it needs to be an END not a MEANS or just a random policy. In fact, if a group of players really wanted to be anti pirate, this is a great way to do it. Simply enforce a NLRI policy and be real clear about it, find a decent but not great constellation (cloud ring could work well for this) set up 2-4 outposts and have clear rules. No sovreignty claims by neutral corps, no refineries. The alliance can be funded by renting office space and refining, and possibly have 1 really sweet system (in the cloud ring example XZH) that of off limits and NBSI is enforced. Newbs and carebears running amok would draw pirates like flies to something that draws flies, and the pvpers running the free space would have constant targets, as well as the acclaim of new players and the eve community alike. What they wont get is mega rich or powerful in the alliance scheme of things, but if it was someones dream, of course it could easily be accomplished.
Semkhet The Priory Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.23 06:34:00 - [28] Free space in the genuine sense ? Happens only when CCP adds some systems after a patch or content upgrade. And it lasts a few hours at most.
Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.23 07:08:00 - [29] Originally by: Seleene "Free space"? Avernus, stop starting threads where you sound like a tree-hugging hippie, man. It's um.. a public relations exercise. Nothing in life is quite so sweet as the taste of payback.
Helplessandlost Minmatar Convergent Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.23 10:24:00 - [30] Originally by: Helplessandlost /emote bkmrks this poster as future source of endless amusement.... "Don't take life too seriously, nobody gets out alive!"
SwindonBadger 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.23 10:46:00 - [31] thats a nice trea Av. GL on anyone tyring to make a free for all free space area, give it 1 month till every pirate corp/alliance has a spy with the comuication system for the players there, and let the carebear farming beggin. #unless# there are just and worthy defenders! who use there seperate ts ect, well from what remember when 9cg ect was free for all, it was a nightmare... good for traning though...... (fetches axe) chipperty chopperty
darth solo Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.10.23 10:50:00 - [32] free space is only possible if the force making it free is very good at PVP and can uphold the law. d solo.
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.23 10:55:00 - [33] Originally by: darth solo free space is only possible if the force making it free is very good at PVP and can uphold the law. d solo. But if there is such a thing as "law" determined by the strongest local force, then there is no free space is there ? I mean, we could call <insert alliance X> -space freespace too then, they just have got a more intricate system of "laws" that decide who is welcome and who not. Freespace is space that for some reason does not need enforcement of regulations about who does what. It is space where facilities are provided without questions asked or limits imposed. In short: it's not going to happen. Old blog
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.10.23 10:56:00 - [34] Originally by: darth solo free space is only possible if the force making it free is very good at PVP and can uphold the law. d solo. indeed... Police Constable Solo perhaps you could entertain us with some anecdotes from Free Fountain, how is the neighbourhood watch scheme coming along? .. additionally I was considering a visit to the Fountain Area.. is there a CRIMESTOPPER hotline I can phone in case I run into some yocals.
Tecam Hund Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.23 10:59:00 - [35] Originally by: Avernus - Can it still be done? - Should it be done for profit, or for ideals? - Is it right to do it for profit? and... - What would be required for Free Space to succeed these days? - Who is in the position to make it happen? - Where would it be most likely to succeed? - Do independants deserve Free Space if it can be done? - I think it can be done at any point. In fact as pointed out already there seem to be some movement on the freespace front lately. - I would say that profit and ideals go hand in hand. Free trade brings profit, and is a pretty high ideal on its own. - Free space can not exist just for profit, otherwise it becomes the mining biatches space. and... - This is a key question here. I think that free space can only exist when its residents don't consist of two types, such as mining carebears and security forces. Otherwise the stronger side will dominate the weaker sooner or later. The relationships in free space have to be based on mutual respect between independant and capable pilots (even if they are in corporations) and understanding that there is no real point to "claim" space since its only an illusion. - I think we are all in a position to make it happen. Free space is not something some entity can just announce creation of. - NPC regions at first, then possibly others if it gets to the point where the benefits of free space become clear to the majority of EVE population. - Anyone deserves Free Space as long as they are capable (1st point of 2nd set of answers). The problem with people who just want to mine is they don't really want free space, just the money; and as I said before, they will be dominated because they allow it to happen.
darth solo Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.10.23 11:25:00 - [36] Originally by: Nez Perces Originally by: darth solo free space is only possible if the force making it free is very good at PVP and can uphold the law. d solo. indeed... Police Constable Solo perhaps you could entertain us with some anecdotes from Free Fountain, how is the neighbourhood watch scheme coming along? .. additionally I was considering a visit to the Fountain Area.. is there a CRIMESTOPPER hotline I can phone in case I run into some yocals. its going very good, and has been alot of fun for us which reflects on corp numbers which can be 40+. its nice having a goal.. its actually one of the most rewarding things iv done in EVE and going by everyones mails, EVE loves it too. id still like to see alot more ppl here though, but the guys that have came and left have done so with full wallets. it only takes one cormack and ur made for years... Fountain is tasty. d solo.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.10.23 11:55:00 - [37] Originally by: darth solo its going very good, and has been alot of fun for us which reflects on corp numbers which can be 40+. its nice having a goal.. its actually one of the most rewarding things iv done in EVE and going by everyones mails, EVE loves it too. id still like to see alot more ppl here though, but the guys that have came and left have done so with full wallets. it only takes one cormack and ur made for years... Fountain is tasty. d solo. Splendid... It seems your men are making substantial progress.... it is certainly a most worthwhile goal to uphold Free Space in lawless Fountain, particularly when confronted by ruthless criminal gangs, namely Xelas and Roberts. Perhaps, once your work is done in Fountain you can move to assist FIX and Avernus to continue your work in Querious, your experience in Fountain will prove invaluable.
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:16:00 - [38] The sovereignty of a Free Captain begins and ends at the hull of his ship. Freespace is that point in space and time where a Free Captain flies his ship. To put it another way, the concept of a freespace 'zone', enforced by a freespace 'navy' is one that is not only inherently contradictory but which contains the seeds of its own destruction if it is put into practice. Freespace is the practice of a community of pilots. It's not an arbitrary region of 0.0 space fenced off and declared 'free' by virtue of the guns of a warrior caste so that the merchant and peon castes can go about their business with the complacency of the empire capsuleer. If you fly where you will, trade with who you please and exploit common resources as you see fit, then you fly free. If you fly with whomsoever you wish, do not allow others to dictate standings and maintain for yourself the absolute right to use force as you see fit, then you fly free. Let no-one tell you where you can and cannot fly. Let no-one tell you who you may or may not trade with. Let no-one tell you which resources you may or may not exploit. Let no-one tell you who you can and cannot shoot. Most of all, let no-one tell you who your friends may be and who your enemies must be. Then you fly in freespace. The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction
NATMav F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:03:00 - [39] I'm posting in a Jericho thread...oh wait. FREEE is Recruiting
Doppleganger Minmatar Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:18:00 - [40] /me should have known better then to loan Avernus his T2 bong....
Selpy 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:35:00 - [41] Originally by: Doppleganger /me should have known better then to loan Avernus his T2 bong.... [Selpy shakes his head] All those year's of Fly off your wing dopple, and you held back something like a T2 bong! fershame holding out on another toker, Fine, I shall take my Jack Herrier stash and find someone else to share it with :P Look deep into these eyes, they'll be the last thing to see you!
SwindonBadger 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.23 16:47:00 - [42] nice poast av, so close number 9 number 9 number 9 number 9
Jaydom Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.23 18:34:00 - [43] Originally by: Nez Perces ofc.. they had the advantage of operating out of npc stations.. until they put up their outpost that is... It is really no surprise that CVA are free space idealists (one has to wonder, where their heart truly lies.. Amarr RP or free space)..... Imperial Dreams is at their core.. and they were in the good ol' (yes you guessed it) CFS. Well, it is difficult for a 250 man alliance to put up a plethora of outpost. ;) Imperial Dreams was proud to fight for CFS and what it stood for, and it is funny that the FIX traitor brings up this topic when FIX helped in CFS's demise, but I digress. But yes to CVA, free space is part of our "role-play" and we do it off of ideals. Not for profit. Expanding the Amarr empire, providing a buffer to the lawless reaches of 0.0 is how we play it. Works out for everyone, its nice that the trend has spread to the other smaller alliances in EVE. On a grand scale though, free-space is too difficult to keep organized. Its a pain in the ass as it is with our small sliver of space, I can't imagine if a large alliance in population or geography to do it. Too much to deal with, not practical, not worth it :P
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.10.23 19:01:00 - [44] Originally by: Jaydom Imperial Dreams was proud to fight for CFS and what it stood for, and it is funny that the FIX traitor brings up this topic when FIX helped in CFS's demise, but I digress. .. funny doesn't even begin to cover it.. its both sickening and hypocritical.. .. it would be like if BoB started issuing hunting passes in Fountain... Originally by: Jaydom ..... On a grand scale though, free-space is too difficult to keep organized. yup and anybody with any sense knows it.... so yeah FFS !! with this thread. Free Fix Space !!! or is that .. Free Fountain Space..
Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.23 19:41:00 - [45] Originally by: Jaydom Imperial Dreams was proud to fight for CFS and what it stood for, and it is funny that the FIX traitor brings up this topic when FIX helped in CFS's demise, but I digress. In all honesty, it's incredibly hard to betray an organization that continiously insisted upon shooting themselves in their feet. CFS failed as a government of it's regions, as diplomats, as leaders of their own members, and as protectors of their space and ideals. It was in the end, a complete and utter failure, repeating past mistakes with unerring accuracy that boggled the mind, despite the frantic attempts of those on the outside to try to give advice, and direction; bolstering the CFS far more than it deserved. The CFS would have fallen apart 6 months earlier than it did without the outside support of the independant corporations in Querious. Several of us had the highest levels of access in CFS forums in order to communicate with your leaders, and give advice on matters which never seemed to be followed despite the asking. CFS leadership and members alike took on CA propaganda like it was being spoonfed to them, hook, line, and sinker. You ended up doing exactly what they were egging you on for in these forums, and in the public forum areas of the CFS forums. It was pathetic... it was criminal neglect. So the QDF, soon to become FIX made it's choice when the blunders of the CFS became far to great to ignore as their dealings with CA brought future threats to our doorsteps through CFS leadership's ignorance. We inhabited the space, we protected the space, we followed the rules, and upheld he principles for the CFS; because the CFS couldn't and wouldn't do it for themselves. So the CFS died, and because you convinced StA and DSMA to follow under your guidance, they died as well. The result: FIX. An alliance that held its own space for the better part of two years, longer than any other alliance in Eve history has managed to accomplish. All without NPC stations which were originally so favored by 0.0 alliances. We're one of the oldest alliances still in existance today, I believe perhaps only the Reds are older; the second oldest IGA by the margin of a day; only 3FA remains ahead of us, and of the first 10 IGA's only 4 (including FIX) are still alive. So yes, we did kill the CFS, and it was the right choice to make. Not because we were against the concept of Free Space however, but because the CFS needed to die for Querious to live. That has provided us with more than our fair share of enemies over the course of time as ex-CFS pilots move into other alliances... we deserve it. You make your decisions, and you live with the consequences. Make no mistake; I'm not against free space nor the concept of it, never have been. The circumstances by which I live in space are not black and white answers shaped by a standard cookie cutter. This isn't a discussion about FIX, nor about myself. Don't allow the title of the thread to mislead you, that is there for unapparent purposes. The discussion is about Free Space... and that's an ideology. Nothing in life is quite so sweet as the taste of payback.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.10.23 19:59:00 - [46] Originally by: Avernus This isn't a discussion about FIX, nor about myself. Don't allow the title of the thread to mislead you, that is there for unapparent purposes. The discussion is about Free Space... and that's an ideology. oh so infact your choice of title was purposefully misleading... how very cunning of you..... .. seeing as you are one of two official spokesmen for FIX, you should really have made it very clear in the OP that this was a completely hypothetical discussion... as it would have to be, seeing as FIX doesn't actually own any space to open up to the public. Anyways... lets get back on topic... Free Space is a morally bankrupt concept. ... thats my statement on the subject.. I'll be happy to verbally spar with anybody who thinks otherwise.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.10.23 20:01:00 - [47] Originally by: Avernus My principals have never changed, and never will, because I don't drop my standards if they may become problematic for others. In short, you are sickened by what you have failed to become yourself... a person that acts upon their beliefs, and not just someone who follows a line of popular thought. err.. what .. care to explain yourself... .... "I am sickened by what I have failed to become?... and didnt act on my beliefs? .. and I follow a popular line of though?" huh... wtf? put the bong down.... or explain what the hell you are talking about...
Dortock The Scarlet Harmonic	Posted - 2006.10.23 20:10:00 - [48] Originally by: Nez Perces .. seeing as you are one of two official spokesmen for FIX, you should really have made it very clear in the OP that this was a completely hypothetical discussion... as it would have to be, seeing as FIX doesn't actually own any space to open up to the public. py to verbally spar with anybody who thinks otherwise. Ouch. That hurts and yet it's true. As for the comment regarding Nez that you made Avernus, if you even had a clue about Nez and what he posts on these forums, you wouldn't have written that. You claim that it is Nez following the popular trend, yet it is your alliance that followed in Xelas' footsteps as BoB's habitants. King Tinfoil Hatter
Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.23 20:17:00 - [49] Originally by: Dortock Originally by: Nez Perces .. seeing as you are one of two official spokesmen for FIX, you should really have made it very clear in the OP that this was a completely hypothetical discussion... as it would have to be, seeing as FIX doesn't actually own any space to open up to the public. py to verbally spar with anybody who thinks otherwise. Ouch. That hurts and yet it's true. As for the comment regarding Nez that you made Avernus, if you even had a clue about Nez and what he posts on these forums, you wouldn't have written that. You claim that it is Nez following the popular trend, yet it is your alliance that followed in Xelas' footsteps as BoB's habitants. As a person who has spent hundreds of hours in communication with Nez, both of us within the capacity of JCoS within FIX, and have argued over an astounding multitude of topics ad nauseum over the course of a year during that period.... I know very well what I write. You're short on information valid to this particular arguement. For Nez; Stop dodging. The relevant comment from yourself that I worked from is quoted immediately above what I wrote. You called me hypocritical, I argued that for me to be anything other than what I am would in fact be true hypocricy. You stated you were sickened by my statements.... that's because understanding my statements is apparently beyond your grasp. Nothing in life is quite so sweet as the taste of payback.
Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.23 20:21:00 - [50] I should also answer the charge that I wasn't being clear in the purposes of my post here. From the very beginning of the topic starter: Quote: Yeah, I know this isn't the usual announcement or political diatribe we're so fond of in this forum area; I figured today I'd do something a little different and see where it goes. I figure it's time to take the communities temperature on the topic of Free Space, and their thoughts on it. Just for you Nez, I'll add some big blinky lights and warning signs that I'm not actually discussing FIX policy in the forum in future topics. Nothing in life is quite so sweet as the taste of payback.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.10.23 20:29:00 - [51] Edited by: Nez Perces on 23/10/2006 20:30:21 Originally by: Avernus For Nez; Stop dodging. The relevant comment from yourself that I worked from is quoted immediately above what I wrote. You called me hypocritical, I argued that for me to be anything other than what I am would in fact be true hypocricy. You stated you were sickened by my statements.... that's because understanding my statements is apparently beyond your grasp. I think to understand your statements and your drivel so far.. I would have to be smoking the same stuff you are.... It must be damn good... ya know what I'm sayin'.... .. hook a brother up .. you know. I called you a hypocrite, that was very clear.. and I call you that because you were a JCOS with me whilst we step by step eliminated any vestiges of free space from within FIX's infrastructure. Why? because Free space doesn't work... you are a hypocrite because any changes that happened in FIX were approved by the infamous FIX council, and that included your corporation and you are the CEO. Yet you come here onto the EVE-online forums asking for opinions of free space, brandishing the FIX name.. whilst FIX doesnt even have any space of its own. I don't even know what to call that... So lets go back to what you are calling me.. be a man and say it in plain english... but maybe you might want to blow the smoke out of your face first.
Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.23 20:43:00 - [52] What may come as a slight surprise to you Nez, is despite our having worked together as much as we did... I never on any occasion let you get a look in the thinking behind those thoughts I do share. There is reason for it, but it doesn't have place in this discussion. You may perhaps recall, when FIX came into existance and I wrote the draft and within it happened to be the following: Quote: Travel is allowed, NPC hunting is allowed. Mining is restricted, Starbases are restricted. NPC corp members in shuttles and tech 1 frigates are auto KOS (it's cheap to reimburse them if we got trigger happy. An NPC corp member in a cruiser or battleship is obviously something more, and needs to be dealt with as an individual. I'm very wary of NPC corp member haulers coming through and they must be scrutinized thoroughly. All NPC corp people are ROS unless they are otherwise approved to be here. Freaky how I still have original documents like that huh? I knew the corps wouldn't go for others mining in our space, so I didn't ever push that. As you know, several revisions were made to the original charter, but the above more than shows my personal thoughts at the time... it was completely written without outside interferance or others thoughts. Looking back now.... unworkable these days, but 2 years ago it was a different story if that database tool I had in the planning came into being. Here is a simple insight into how I think that you've never seemed to be able to figure out despite my even telling you. 1. Alliance comes first... that by extension also means the region of Querious. 2. My corporation comes second. What sacrifices need to be made, will be made. 3. My personal desires come third. I have responsibilities to my corporation, and to my alliance. Savy? /passes the bong... it may open your mind a bit man??? Nothing in life is quite so sweet as the taste of payback.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.10.23 20:59:00 - [53] Edited by: Nez Perces on 23/10/2006 21:00:41 Originally by: Avernus What may come as a slight surprise to you Nez, is despite our having worked together as much as we did... I never on any occasion let you get a look in the thinking behind those thoughts I do share. There is reason for it, but it doesn't have place in this discussion. I have no interest whatsoever in knowing what happens inside your head.... I don't think anybody else does either... Originally by: Avernus You may perhaps recall, when FIX came into existance and I wrote the draft and within it happened to be the following: .. nobody asked you to write anything... your draft was worth less than the bandwidth it occupied... Originally by: Avernus I knew the corps wouldn't go for others mining in our space, so I didn't ever push that. As you know, several revisions were made to the original charter, but the above more than shows my personal thoughts at the time... it was completely written without outside interferance or others thoughts. I can tell, its completely unworkable... FIX got rid of any vestiges of Free Space ASAP and you know what you can do with your unrequested draft don't you... Originally by: Avernus Looking back now.... unworkable these days, but 2 years ago it was a different story if that database tool I had in the planning came into being. you and your silly databases, who gives a monkey's crutch.... Avernus you didnt run FIX I did, I did all the legwork. So your thoughts on what would work or wouldn't work are irrelevant. Quote: 1. Alliance comes first... that by extension also means the region of Querious. 2. My corporation comes second. What sacrifices need to be made, will be made. 3. My personal desires come third. I have responsibilities to my corporation, and to my alliance. Well at least this admission.. so you are basically saying that on an alliance level free space doesnt work, on a corporation level it doesnt work... and you sacrificed your ideals for the good of FIX. Well have a gold star you deserve it. And I'm not sharing bongs with you I might catch something funny.
Synapse Archae Amarr Solarflare Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.10.23 21:00:00 - [54] Call it trolling perhaps but...would BoB let you do it? Obviously someone has to be there to kill alliances who plan to move in. Leaving your space open to be scouted means youre at an existing disavantage. Build a PVP force and structure big enough to make that advantage negligeable, and Ill consider it. Anything else and it will be considered Free Space[for the taking] as opposed to Free Space[for all] --------------------------------------------- http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=349194&page=1Redo Fleets[/ur
Selpy 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.23 21:19:00 - [55] Originally by: Droewa ..... so.. who won? I didn't :( 1 too high Look deep into these eyes, they'll be the last thing to see you!
Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.23 21:21:00 - [56] Oh... gloves off time huh Nez? Considering that your response was rather venemous to what was a rather polite reply... I figure you're on the starting edges of c.racking again. (We have a history of this Nez... ) But let us continue. I'll skip over the stuff that is purely insult, and stick to the beef of the matter... helps keep us on track. Quote: Originally by: Avernus You may perhaps recall, when FIX came into existance and I wrote the draft and within it happened to be the following: .. nobody asked you to write anything... your draft was worth less than the bandwidth it occupied... Oddly, that document became the base for the charter that was adopted by FIX. I'll spare you massive embarrassment Nez, but the parts that were fully adopted without change include: - Government ,including details of all positions. - Membership requirements - Station management (orginally called for the Querious Holding Company... got changed to the FIX Holding Company, but not before the QHF had already been created) - The exact parameters of what space we would hold, and why the exclusion of a claim upon the A2 pipe was needed. Quote: Originally by: Avernus I knew the corps wouldn't go for others mining in our space, so I didn't ever push that. As you know, several revisions were made to the original charter, but the above more than shows my personal thoughts at the time... it was completely written without outside interferance or others thoughts. I can tell, its completely unworkable... FIX got rid of any vestiges of Free Space ASAP... stuff Indeed. But I was being accused of being a hypocrite... kinda hard for me to be a hypocrite when I've just proven that my desire was for a limited model of Free Space. Quote: Originally by: Avernus Looking back now.... unworkable these days, but 2 years ago it was a different story if that database tool I had in the planning came into being. you and your silly databases, who gives a monkey's crutch.... Avernus you didnt run FIX I did, I did all the legwork. So your thoughts on what would work or wouldn't work are irrelevant. You did a lot of FIX Nez... I'll be the first guy to say it. You handled all the micromanagement bull** that I personally hate dealing with. Congrats and hats off to you. But we both know that when it came to the direction of FIX in the early days (preceeding my getting utterly fed up with your constant whining and manipulation and dropping the JCoS position due to your absolute malice)... I called the shots and set the direction. You just did the monkey work. Thx. Quote:** Well at least this admission.. so you are basically saying that on an alliance level free space doesnt work, on a corporation level it doesnt work... and you sacrificed your ideals for the good of FIX. Nez... it's called making the tough calls, the sort of thing you used to come running to me for, before the taste of power became too sweet and you couldn't get enough of it. Nothing in life is quite so sweet as the taste of payback.
Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.23 21:25:00 - [57] Originally by: Synapse Archae Call it trolling perhaps but...would BoB let you do it? Obviously someone has to be there to kill alliances who plan to move in. Leaving your space open to be scouted means youre at an existing disavantage. Build a PVP force and structure big enough to make that advantage negligeable, and Ill consider it. Anything else and it will be considered Free Space[for the taking] as opposed to Free Space[for all] Heya Synapse! Very long time no see. FIX has no plans at all for Free Space, for us (even if we still owned Querious), it's completely unfeasibly in our current political landscape. Definately not trolling. I honestly don't see BoB having any problem with it, we already have examples of free space like IAC and CVA who can attest to non-interference. Doing something on a larger scale in 0.0 space has a whole host of challenges though. Nothing in life is quite so sweet as the taste of payback.
Drantis J.H.E.N.R Pure.	Posted - 2006.10.23 21:26:00 - [58] Edited by: Drantis on 23/10/2006 21:27:18 i think Nez and Ave should get married cos they argue just like i do with my wife .... minus the thrown plates and not on the same BIG WORD scale. in short...who cares - get a room. PS Free space will never work - good luck to those who try PPS forget the top bit - can u imagine what their kids will come out like.....ewwwwww
Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.23 21:31:00 - [59] Originally by: Drantis Edited by: Drantis on 23/10/2006 21:27:18 i think Nez and Ave should get married cos they argue just like i do with my wife .... minus the thrown plates and not on the same BIG WORD scale. in short...who cares - get a room. PS Free space will never work - good luck to those who try PPS forget the top bit - can u imagine what their kids will come out like.....ewwwwww Nothing in life is quite so sweet as the taste of payback.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.10.23 21:33:00 - [60] Edited by: Nez Perces on 23/10/2006 21:36:32 Originally by: Avernus Nez... it's called making the tough calls, the sort of thing you used to come running to me for, before the taste of power became too sweet and you couldn't get enough of it. just put the bong down Avernus.. you are embarassing yousrelf... seriously. The truth is FIX was successful despite you and your liberal bullc-r-a-p.. not because of it. At its finest hour, FIX was a fully NBSI alliance with a finetuned miliary chain of command, that commanded respect across EVE from its peers. None of that was down to anything you did, but down to meticulous running of an alliance... at a time when you were mostly out of game. Wraithstorm and PhasmaNL were the other two workaholic JCoS in FIX and they did more than you ever accomplished. I left FIX once, out of my own choice, when the FIX Council demonstrated for the upteenth time that it was a useless legislative entity. I then returned to FIX for a second time and got myself re-elected as a JCOS.. and you were STILL out of the game. The second time I left FIX was due to RL having caught up with me. When I came back to the game, FIX had lost most of its PVP corps, gotten itself into a war it could not win and lost all its stations. And you making this thread about free space... will give anybody who has any sense a good idea as to why things went pete tong.
Wierd Beard Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.23 21:40:00 - [61] Pure Comedy Gold Btw...wasn't it Nez that pushed NBSI in Querious? Oh yea...and the 3 point plan. Manipulating council members by telling them that everyone but them was already on the bandwagon, so better get on or be left behind. And now. All alone. No corp mates to boss around. No alliance to beat your chest over. You've become the Rush Limbaugh of Eve. A powerless obese troll gobbling heroic amounts of Vicodin yet leading the war on drugs. A pundit commenting on every aspect of a world that you no longer participate in. Hypocracy, thy name be Nez Perces.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.10.23 21:49:00 - [62] Edited by: Nez Perces on 23/10/2006 21:50:03 Originally by: Wierd Beard Hypocracy, thy name be Nez Perces. don't you mean hypocrisy? If you are gonna pretend to be wordsworth at least check your spelling.. You know what is comedy gold.. your signature.. its very fitting. Its commendable that you feel the need to run onto the forums to protect your master... but the damage has already been done....
Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.23 22:02:00 - [63] Odd... How is it that despite my presence in leadership, FIX did ok... yet shortly after I had little involvement we had zero friends in Eve, everybody and their mother trying to kick down the gates to 9CG, and corps bailing out left and right because they were sick of the internal situation in FIX... which I was no longer a part of??? Fully NBSI throughout Eve, which we should never have been, we managed to **** everyone in creation. Yup... I recall being against that. Hey.. wasn't that a part of your 3 point plan? You know the one I refer to ofc.. wow, resounding success that brainchild of yours was. I seem to recall dropping my JCoS position over it because there was no way in hell I'd support it. Discussion on the plan was held between you and each corp in secret of course, stamping out general discussion completely.... another first for FIX... and your idea too! Dude, you like got it all figured out. Heck, I even remember taking a break after that from Eve. The ball was all in your hands, you had total control. I leave leadership, you force through several changes I'm against, FIX gets into more fights than we can handle, internal FIX relations fall into the dumpster, corps leave FIX... Yup. Good job on leading FIX man. Go ahead and pat yourself on the back as you tell yourself that you lead FIX into greatness, pandering up to the few and segregating the majority. You're like the second coming of Winston S. man! Nez, you took a break from Eve, by choice, because you couldn't handle the massive mess you had created. Nothing quite like letting you take the reigns and proving your truth worth. PS. I am most very capable of handling my own matters... but can you blame the ol' WB for wanting to stick your nose in it when you can't see what's in front of your own eyes. Read the thread again Nez... take a close look at how well your arguements are holding up as they get taken apart piecemeal and you have to resort to antics to try to keep your head above water. Nothing in life is quite so sweet as the taste of payback.
Hakera Anari Higard	Posted - 2006.10.23 22:09:00 - [64] the problem will always be who defends when your attacked. If guests simply use n' abuse, be convieniently absent when enemies do come for eg they offer nothing and take everything. Only possible concept is that of paid passes like the fountain of old used to do quite well, where you allow people in, as long as they behave and pay for the privledge. Not free space, but probably as close as your going to get.
Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.23 22:11:00 - [65] Originally by: Selpy Originally by: Droewa ..... so.. who won? I didn't :( 1 too high Ok... Swindon had 9... Selpy had 11... who the heck had 10 damnit? It's killin' me! Nothing in life is quite so sweet as the taste of payback.
Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.23 22:14:00 - [66] Originally by: Hakera the problem will always be who defends when your attacked. If guests simply use n' abuse, be convieniently absent when enemies do come for eg they offer nothing and take everything. Only possible concept is that of paid passes like the fountain of old used to do quite well, where you allow people in, as long as they behave and pay for the privledge. Not free space, but probably as close as your going to get. Renters then. Definately one of the most attractive options out there. Someone generally has to keep the house clean. Nothing in life is quite so sweet as the taste of payback.
Machiavelli7 Gallente Obsidian Asylum Pure.	Posted - 2006.10.23 22:25:00 - [67] Actually Avernus, many of the corps left FIX coz you were caught shampooing your crotch. This ain't the forum tho Back to the OP, free space doesn't work because of greed and envy. Oh & Weirdy - stop it you'll make me wet myself.
Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.23 22:26:00 - [68] Originally by: Machiavelli7 Actually Avernus, many of the corps left FIX coz you were caught shampooing your crotch. This ain't the forum tho Back to the OP, free space doesn't work because of greed and envy. Oh & Weirdy - stop it you'll make me wet myself. Dude! You stole my line! (Actually it was WB's line, I stole it from him) Nothing in life is quite so sweet as the taste of payback.
Machiavelli7 Gallente Obsidian Asylum Pure.	Posted - 2006.10.23 22:41:00 - [69] On another note Avie, spare the soapbox ranting.. Originally by: Avernus My principals have never changed, and never will That's balls Av and you know it and 100's of other ex-FIX pilots know it. I once knew an Avernus who wouldn't swallow the 12 inch arrangement with BoB that you currently do. Now you and Nez have firsthand experience of what you're both arguing about. Rather than putting a rose-tinted veil on your actions (both of you!) how about trying to learn from some of your less-than-illustrious decisions? Tying this back to the OP - you tried managing some free space in Catch, Av, which was spectularly unsuccessful and directly led to the ISS first outpost establishment, and the failure to secure the eastern border. With hindsight, the pursuit of 'managed' free space cost FIX dear.
EnglishBob 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.23 22:49:00 - [70] Originally by: Avernus Originally by: Selpy Originally by: Droewa ..... so.. who won? I didn't :( 1 too high Ok... Swindon had 9... Selpy had 11... who the heck had 10 damnit? It's killin' me! Saal had 10, If they are all shifting down one to account for the op. I had 3, how overconfident was that? /EnglishBob curses Avernus! ------------------
Wierd Beard Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.23 22:53:00 - [71] Originally by: Avernus Originally by: Machiavelli7 Actually Avernus, many of the corps left FIX coz you were caught shampooing your crotch. This ain't the forum tho Back to the OP, free space doesn't work because of greed and envy. Oh & Weirdy - stop it you'll make me wet myself. Dude! You stole my line! (Actually it was WB's line, I stole it from him) Actually that line originally belongs to Darien. Most of my quoteable quotes have something to do w/ gender confusion or various orifices and the placement of house pets within them.
Helplessandlost Minmatar Convergent Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.23 22:53:00 - [72] Next time I wanna bet - but I would have went for 5 or 6 /me puts on more popcorn... "Don't take life too seriously, nobody gets out alive!"
Hardin Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.10.23 23:00:00 - [73] Edited by: Hardin on 23/10/2006 23:03:28 Originally by: Nez Perces .... something just ocurred to me, doesn't free space seem like flavour of the month right now? No it has not suddenly become flavour of the month. It is an ideology that has never gone away. For almost two years now the CVA has maintained an NBSI policy in our space. The only people who were unwelcome are Minmatar terrorists, pirates or anyone who has aggressed against CVA in the past. Others like Ushra'Khan, IAC, Huzzah and NOS have also operated non-NBSI policies. If people now notice this more it is simply because the above entities have gained more prominence in galactic events recently (through no choice of their own). Originally by: Nez Perces Well there has been UK fighting the "ebil" pirates in 9uy, and ISS fell over backwards to help them. Even CVA couldn't help but drop the RP and rush to support their sworn enemies. I did answer this at the time but obviously you missed it. The CVA took no part in the 9UY campaign - on either side. We did step up anti-pirate patrols in low-sec Amarrian space due to Amarrian residents requesting our assistance as the pirates assaulting the UK Outpost were also preying on neutrals in Amarrian space. It is the CVA's long term goal to capture the Minmatar Outpost for itself and we could see no benefit in assisting a pirate coalition (many of whom are also enemies of the CVA) to take it. Better the enemy you know and all that! Since the end of the 9UY 'issue' the CVA and UK have been testing each other's defences regularly. It's actually good fun and keeps our pilots on their toes Originally by: Nez Perces Then ofc there is the IAC, who suddenly had a million and one friends to call upon once their outpost was threatened, including CVA who again 'dropped' the RP to fly alonsided sn-iggerdly and people like The Priory. Again your intelligence on this subject is sadly lacking as there was a long standing link between the IAC and CVA. They didn't 'suddenly' have friends to call upon as they had had those friends for a long time. Indeed, I can actually remember being part of a CVA fleet that escorted the 'egg' for the very first IAC Outpost down to Catch. It just happens that this was the first time when there was sufficient need to 'activate' the friendship - as we are both fairly self-sufficient. The fact is that we have a lot in common with IAC - in that they are also anti-pirate 'free-spacers'. Flying alongside Priory is not something we were particularly happy about but for now Priory have accepted IAC's no-piracy rules (to the relief of many a pilot I am sure ). If that changes then I can assure you that they will be made KOS to CVA once again. The fact is that CVA has been entirely true to its vision from the very start and as one of the original founder members I can testify to that. Assisting a friend in need is hardly 'dropping ones RP'. Indeed it would have been very un-Amarrian not to do so! Almost two years ago the CVA launched 'Operation Deliverance' - a mission dedicated to restoring law and order to low-sec Amarrian space and 0.0 bordering the Empire - and that is an ongoing operation. We are extending the Amarrian Empire into lawless space and providing protection and shelter for all who would operate legally in the areas protected by us. Of course I would be lying if I said that we can guarantee anyone's safety 100% of the time - as that is practically an impossibility for any alliance operating in 0.0 - let alone one as small as ours - yet that does not stop our pilots doing their duty every single night - and generally succeeding. Non-NBSI 'Free space' can succeed as we (and others) have demonstrated - but it requires discipline, hard work, excellent communications and at the end of the day an extremely streamlined decision making process - particularly with regards the managemement and dissemination of KOS lists. ------------------------------
Hardin Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.10.23 23:16:00 - [74] Originally by: Hakera the problem will always be who defends when your attacked. If guests simply use n' abuse, be convieniently absent when enemies do come for eg they offer nothing and take everything. That is a problem Hakera but for every three people who run and hide when an enemy fleet is incoming at least one will beg to help out. Not only that but many of the nuetrals who may not be want to PvP can offer assistance in other ways - not least in providing an advanced warning system. This extended 'information-net' can be worth its weight in gold as we are often alerted and scrambling a fleet to deal with invaders before they even realise they have been spotted... As long as people do not directly abuse our rules by pirating then we do not judge them. That does not mean that we do not 'observe' who helps and who doesn't - which in turn provides us with an excellent 'recruitment' pool - after all you already know who you can rely on and who you can't And what greater honour can there be to fly with the CVA in its never ending wars against Minmatar terrorism and the ever present threat of piracy. ------------------------------
Selpy 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.23 23:17:00 - [75] Originally by: Avernus Originally by: Selpy Originally by: Droewa ..... so.. who won? I didn't :( 1 too high Ok... Swindon had 9... Selpy had 11... who the heck had 10 damnit? It's killin' me! Actually, I had 10 and Swindon didn't have 9, I think he was drunk when he posted that lol and BTW, I'm just LOVEING this thread, like some have said...it's PURE COMEDY GOLD GO NEZ GO \o/ Look deep into these eyes, they'll be the last thing to see you!
EnglishBob 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.23 23:21:00 - [76] Edited by: EnglishBob on 23/10/2006 23:22:48 Nope, cos it's the 10th reply. not including the OP, so it's the holder of number 9 that wins. And that's Saal, Damn his eyes! edited 'cos I can't count ------------------
Selpy 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.23 23:24:00 - [77] Originally by: EnglishBob Edited by: EnglishBob on 23/10/2006 23:22:48 Nope, cos it's the 10th reply. not including the OP, so it's the holder of number 9 that wins. And that's Saal, Damn his eyes! edited 'cos I can't count lol same person, but now you agree with my statement above, just get home from the pub english :) Look deep into these eyes, they'll be the last thing to see you!
Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.23 23:29:00 - [78] Edited by: Avernus on 23/10/2006 23:31:51 Edited by: Avernus on 23/10/2006 23:31:05 Originally by: Machiavelli7 On another note Avie, spare the soapbox ranting.. Originally by: Avernus My principals have never changed, and never will That's balls Av and you know it and 100's of other ex-FIX pilots know it. I once knew an Avernus who wouldn't swallow the 12 inch arrangement with BoB that you currently do. Now you and Nez have firsthand experience of what you're both arguing about. Rather than putting a rose-tinted veil on your actions (both of you!) how about trying to learn from some of your less-than-illustrious decisions? Tying this back to the OP - you tried managing some free space in Catch, Av, which was spectularly unsuccessful and directly led to the ISS first outpost establishment, and the failure to secure the eastern border. With hindsight, the pursuit of 'managed' free space cost FIX dear. Mach... I particularily like our arrangement with BoB. It's a bit insulted to refer to it in the manner that you do. Consider everything that we faced at the end of the CODA war, decisions had to be made. Obviously, they were hard ones, but they were thankfully straight forward, and made easier due to BoB's leaders. Think about it... 450 pilots left in FIX at the end of CODA. You know me pretty well, I don't quit things easily, and with the final split in FIX at the end of CODA, the two ideological camps that we had been struggling with for so longer was an issue no longer. The split that occurred was the to all our benefits in truth... I figure there would still be arguements ongoing otherwise. FIX had a choice to make, enter into arrangements with BoB, or clear out and rebuild elsewhere. Neither the exact arrangement, nor the evolving relations between BoB and FIX are up for discussion. Nor is the progress of FIX since CODA. I'll say this though... there isn't a person in FIX that doesn't wholeheartedly believe that we didn't choose the right path. FIX has always had a very independant streak, it's got us in trouble more than once. We still have that instilled within us, it's one of the reasons we're not a dead alliance. I'm damn proud of FIX these days, and the rebuilding and growth of our alliance is something that we all take great pleasure in. Most who know me well, can't figure out why I would accept a deal with BoB. It's simple really... it's set in stone. I can take their word to the bank, and I have no hesitations in belief that they will honour every facet of our agreements. Show me how many alliances that can be said about? It goes back to the foundations of what we build FIX upon. Honour. Our word once given, is gold, you can take it to the bank as well, even if it ends up hurting us for keeping it. In the case of: Quote: Tying this back to the OP - you tried managing some free space in Catch, Av, which was spectularly unsuccessful and directly led to the ISS first outpost establishment, and the failure to secure the eastern border. With hindsight, the pursuit of 'managed' free space cost FIX dear. I came up with the plan... I also gave notice I was leaving FIX for a few months (which I did). I didn't manage the plan or even putting it into place. As far as I know, the whole thing kind of sat there. Nor was I the person who accepted the 'gift' of Catch from SE when it came to us. That wasn't my call... I wasn't in leadership at that point, just a plain old council member. It was obvious that FIX would accept the space, I simply tried to give a way that we might be able to use it. My principals, are well intact.... I'm just not that simple of a guy unless you have all the pieces of the puzzle. Edit: Damn forum cut out my whole reply Nothing in life is quite so sweet as the taste of payback.
EnglishBob 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.23 23:30:00 - [79] You think I could work it out if I took my shoes and socks off? ------------------
Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.23 23:35:00 - [80] Ohh... So Saal won then? Tell him I want my cut damnit... this was a lot of work man! Nothing in life is quite so sweet as the taste of payback.
Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.23 23:50:00 - [81] Originally by: Hardin Originally by: Hakera the problem will always be who defends when your attacked. If guests simply use n' abuse, be convieniently absent when enemies do come for eg they offer nothing and take everything. That is a problem Hakera but for every three people who run and hide when an enemy fleet is incoming at least one will beg to help out. Not only that but many of the nuetrals who may not be want to PvP can offer assistance in other ways - not least in providing an advanced warning system. This extended 'information-net' can be worth its weight in gold as we are often alerted and scrambling a fleet to deal with invaders before they even realise they have been spotted... As long as people do not directly abuse our rules by pirating then we do not judge them. That does not mean that we do not 'observe' who helps and who doesn't - which in turn provides us with an excellent 'recruitment' pool - after all you already know who you can rely on and who you can't And what greater honour can there be to fly with the CVA in its never ending wars against Minmatar terrorism and the ever present threat of piracy. Good post Hardin! You always raise the quality in here a bit Nothing in life is quite so sweet as the taste of payback.
Beringe Raptus Regaliter	Posted - 2006.10.24 00:22:00 - [82] I find it interesting that some posters in this thread seem to consider the current freespace areas "failures", somehow. I'm seeing the exact opposite. In fact, taking the ISS as an example - this was an organisation that people said could never exist in EvEs 0.0 landscape, and from what I can tell they are thriving. You don't need to control space to make it free. You just have to stop anyone else from controlling it. However, I really don't see where morals come into the discussion. Free space doesn't seem any more or less moral than controlled space to me. ------------------------------------------- "Never underestimate the power of language." --Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles--
Mahrin Skel Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.24 00:26:00 - [83] Mach: As far as why we accepted the deal with BOB: Everyone who was left in FIX at that point was tired. That last month, especially, sucked. We knew we were going to lose, and there was nothing to do but go down swinging. The prospect of moving everything to some other chunk of 0.0 and fighting to take and defend it? Those that wanted that option had pretty much already cleared out for PURE and Outbreak. FIX was down to the guys who were willing to stand and die in Q. BOB offered us a good deal, especially considering the strength of their negotiating position. They could have offered to let us be "renters", a few corps would have taken that deal (in fact, a couple of ex-fix corps did later). Being a client state looked better to us than being nomads. Anyway, considering yours was one of the corps that buggered off on us rather than fight to the end, I'm not sure what makes you feel entitled to judge the choices of those of us who stayed. --Dave
Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.24 00:43:00 - [84] Time to explain a few things about what is going on in this thread, a few people, will notice that it has an odd title for a discussion thread. A week or so ago, I was approached by a member of Outbreak. Despite the fact that we often get shot and and shoot at these guys, there is a large quantity of ex-FIX in that corp, and I know these guys well. Lots of friends there. They came to me, and asked for a favor. They had a sweepstakes going... tickets were all sold, and they needed a particular person to get everything working. Ofc, that happened to be myself. I was asked to create a thread, a topic of my own choosing; this happens to be it. The purpose was twofold, one purpose was the betting, the other purpose is that there is a person that likes to dog threads that I create, and has a hell of a lot to say about FIX. In the past there has been some serious forum wars between us in the FIX forums... it was only a matter of time before the same were to happen here much to nobody's delight. It's harder to conduct serious business on this forum when there is a very good chance your topic is going to get derailed by a person who has it in for you. I chose this topic subject, because it does in fact happen to be something I like talking about. I find the material to be of great interest. However, the topic title: Free FIX Space -or- FFS -or- I like dropping bombs; is a multipurpose one. Allow me to introduce you all to a historical Eve-O first: The Eve-O 'Fabled Forum Slap'... FFS! Saal Iverson, congratulations, you have won the sweepstakes. Post number 10 is the post in which Nez Perces jumped into this thread. Nez Perces; You just caught the bomb. /You've been hit by the Gunboat Diplomat, wrecking ego for massive carnage. Avernus - 3 Nez Perces - 0 Nothing in life is quite so sweet as the taste of payback.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.10.24 00:50:00 - [85] Originally by: Avernus Nez Perces; You just caught the bomb. /You've been hit by the Gunboat Diplomat, wrecking ego for massive carnage. Avernus - 3 Nez Perces - 0 Even if this were true, which sounds absolutely retarded.... .. you guys must spend a hell of a lot of time thinking about me... I am flattered. Avernus you have a big opinion of yourself, its unfortunate that that opinion falls terribly short of reality. You bringing up this topic of free space, whilst FIX does not have its own is the big joke. That you can't see it is the biggest shame of all.
IonHammer Minmatar Black Avatar Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.24 00:52:00 - [86] Ok heres my take, there is free space its called empire! no one wants to go there unless your a noob as there's no isk there. Every one want to be in 0.0 where there's isk to be had in plexing, npcing and mining and generally misbehaving. Please tell me how then could this be free no wonder this approach never works. Put bluntly free space = space no ones wants. If thats your real life i'm very jealous - Petwraith
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.10.24 01:13:00 - [87] Edited by: Nez Perces on 24/10/2006 01:13:09 Originally by: Kazim For the purpose of this thread does it matter at all that FIX has no space to call their own? Avernus explained it pretty well a few posts up. err... some people are easily entertained I guess .. I don't know if you read the forums at all... but I post pretty regular on a variety of topics that interest me.. this is just one more of many. So what is this thread really about?
Selpy 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.24 02:12:00 - [88] Edited by: Selpy on 24/10/2006 02:12:34 Originally by: Nez Perces So what is this thread really about? me loosing a 1 mill bet, damn #10, who knew OP counted as 0 [Selpy points to Avernus] I still wanna dance with you Look deep into these eyes, they'll be the last thing to see you!
Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.24 02:16:00 - [89] /Passes Selpy the T2 bong.... shhhhh... don't tell Dopple! Nothing in life is quite so sweet as the taste of payback.
Imode Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.24 02:16:00 - [90] Gratz Saal :D ____________________________ Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes
Helplessandlost Minmatar Convergent Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.24 02:25:00 - [91] Edited by: Helplessandlost on 24/10/2006 02:27:45 Originally by: Nez Perces So what is this thread really about? heh, read through the thread, look at Av's explanation, look at the subtle hints throughout long before his explanation. T2 clue for the win! edit add Specific Example "Don't take life too seriously, nobody gets out alive!"
Selpy 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.24 02:29:00 - [92] Originally by: Avernus /Passes Selpy the T2 bong.... shhhhh... don't tell Dopple! w00t! whoa mannn...... Look deep into these eyes, they'll be the last thing to see you!
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.10.24 02:31:00 - [93] Originally by: Selpy Originally by: Nez Perces So what is this thread really about? me loosing a 1 mill bet, damn #10, who knew OP counted as 0 [Selpy points to Avernus] I still wanna dance with you .. you can't be serious... so the whole thing is a hoax to get me to post on the forums..... what a waste of bandwidth. Maybe the OP should get a forum warning.. surely wasting EVE-O bandwidth for silly in-jokes that nobody else is interested is against some rule or another... I'm sorry but whatever was the purpose of this thread it has fallen flat on its face.....the pre-pubescent humour is lost on me.
valhallan Minmatar Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.24 02:36:00 - [94] Sigh, This little stroll down memory lane is a trip I wish I had not wasted any effort on. Nez, I think it goes without saying (or any judgement good or ill) that your ability to pop in on any thread in any forum at any time of day or night is legendary. I would say that it is a curse eventually inherited by anyone in game passionate and sadistic enough to toss a hat into the ring of allience politics. That coupled with with a well known animosity to two well known EVE-personalities such as Avernus and yourself, apparently proved a pretty fertile breeding ground for some tricksters over in OUTBREAK. ```` While hugely ammusing in a "candid camera" way for those of us privy to the joke and the years of history behind it, I have to appologize to EVE and NEZ on behalf of FIX. I was unaware of the joke until well into page two of the thread, and it certainly could have been much more properly executed if my diplomat would not have included our allience name in the title, or had placed a disclamer as previously mentioned. The kind of malicous banter traded here tarnishes what was a golden age in the old FIX and more importantly sets a poor example to our own members and the EVE community about what the NEW FIX represents. ....rustles through a stack of papers to find that proposal about Smacktalking fines I vetoed.....and wonders how much I should multiply the top fine for people who should know better. respectfully Val Chairman of the FIX Board`
Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.24 03:05:00 - [95] Obviously, as people can read from the above, this was an independant action on my own part. I knew what I was doing isn't approved of, however the temptation for myself to create this thread at the request of some friends is one I wasn't able to pass up. I take responsibility for my own actions. I set Nez up for a fall, and I knew that the bait would be hard for him to resist. I don't regret defending myself when he laid accusations against my character, nor returning my own salvos... but as it is easy to see from the above, I'm not always the nicest guy towards those I don't get along with. Had the thread ended earlier, or never taken a turn towards an arguement between Nez and myself, I'd be fine with it. This post wasn't requested of me, but there are always consequences for the actions you take. I'm always willing to pay the piper once I've had my fun. Nothing in life is quite so sweet as the taste of payback.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.10.24 03:14:00 - [96] What do you think you accomplished with this Avernus? I'll tell you what you accomplished.. nada.. nothing. Its funny that you can't let Valhallan have the last word..... You are self-absorbed and egocentric. The topic of Free Space has a lot of merit as a discussion piece.. yet you managed to smear excrement all over it. You could have chosen to start a genuine thread asking for opinions and added a disclaimer saying you weren't speaking on FIX's behalf and avoided using FIX in the thread title. Instead you showed your true colours... Now why don't you pay some lip service to your superior and keep your mouth shut. I dare you, I double dare you... Infact this thread is heading for a lock.... as it had no substance to start with. Shame on you.
Selpy 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.24 03:21:00 - [97] Originally by: valhallan That coupled with with a well known animosity to two well known EVE-personalities such as Avernus and yourself, apparently proved a pretty fertile breeding ground for some tricksters over in OUTBREAK. Your right Val, I am a trickster, and I believe I'm this exact one. Playing the roll of "Mr.NiceGuy" tend's to warp ones perceptions. Humour is only one of the few sources of amusment when you get to places like these. Av:if this snowballs into something on your end. Convo me Look deep into these eyes, they'll be the last thing to see you!
Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.24 03:28:00 - [98] Originally by: Selpy Originally by: valhallan That coupled with with a well known animosity to two well known EVE-personalities such as Avernus and yourself, apparently proved a pretty fertile breeding ground for some tricksters over in OUTBREAK. Your right Val, I am a trickster, and I believe I'm this exact one. Playing the roll of "Mr.NiceGuy" tend's to warp ones perceptions. Humour is only one of the few sources of amusment when you get to places like these. Av:if this snowballs into something on your end. Convo me Nah Selpy, it won't come to that. I basically was having too much fun to think to myself wether I should be doing this in the first place (which I shouldn't). FIX is a pretty cool place to be; I'll get told to give my head a shake and use it a bit more often (which I should). Nez, just because I shouldn't have created this thread, doesn't mean I can't tell you to stfu. I'll have some sympathy for your horror towards a ruined thread, when I manage to find the area you so helpfully contributed to it before taking your shots. /kisses /stay perky baby Nothing in life is quite so sweet as the taste of payback.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.10.24 03:31:00 - [99] Originally by: Avernus doesn't mean I can't tell you to stfu. .. noted and ignored.. bye bye.
Entilzah Valen Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.24 04:08:00 - [100] Edited by: Entilzah Valen on 24/10/2006 04:11:51 f it _________________________________________________________
Darien Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.24 04:09:00 - [101] Originally by: Wierd Beard Originally by: Avernus Originally by: Machiavelli7 Actually Avernus, many of the corps left FIX coz you were caught shampooing your crotch. This ain't the forum tho Back to the OP, free space doesn't work because of greed and envy. Oh & Weirdy - stop it you'll make me wet myself. Dude! You stole my line! (Actually it was WB's line, I stole it from him) Actually that line originally belongs to Darien. Most of my quoteable quotes have something to do w/ gender confusion or various orifices and the placement of house pets within them. \o/

Saucerhead Forum Moderator	Posted - 2006.10.24 09:08:00 - [102] Drifted way too far from original post - locked. And the forums are not your betting table people, mkay? -- Read the Rules!


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