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Teir 2 BC's vs HAC market

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2SecondsTilMidnight	Posted - 2006.10.29 14:11:00 - [31] Also cerb can't use drones, drake can use a few
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.29 14:17:00 - [32] Originally by: Deathbarrage Originally by: Taram Caldar Originally by: Xianthar Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker i think the biggest hit to HACs will be the Drake, however HAC will still have their place due to speed and agility. drake has better fire power than the cerb so yea i think the cerb price should drop alot (thank god) and to the other guy on the prices...nighthawk costs me 80mil, cerb costs almost 200mil. -xian Might want to check your facts.... Cerb: 6x Launcher Caldari Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Kinetic Missile damage and 10% bonus to Missile velocity per level Heavy Assault Ship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus Light and Heavy Missile flight time and 5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire per level So at Cruiser 5, HAC 5 the Cerb gets a 50% bonus to damage with kinetic missiles and a 25% bonus to damage with regular missiles: 6x 1.5 = 9 launcher equiv Cerb also gets a 100% bonus to range on missiles making it reach out and touch to over 200km at best levels. Now look at the Drake: 5% bonus to resists & 5% bonus to missile rof for Assault, heavy and heavy assault launchers. So at max BC level the Drake gets a 25% bonus to dmg with missiles 7 x 1.25 = 8.75 (less firepower than Cerb w/o a railgun in slot 8) No range bonus so it's locked to ranges of around 125km or so. It's a better tank but the cerb both out-damages (a bit) it and out-ranges it (a lot). Not to mention the much higher speed/maneuverability. No... Cerb is still the superior ship, as it should be. bar the fact that cerb has 5 launchers, not 6 DOH I sit corrected! I knew it had 6 high slots... didn't realize only 5 launchers. You are correct. Hmmm 5x1.5dmg = 7.5 launcher equiv (so yeah the Drake outguns it a bit.. though the cerb does have much longer range and maneuverability.
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.29 14:18:00 - [33] Originally by: 2SecondsTilMidnight Also cerb can't use drones, drake can use a few That is something I always wondered about. Why would you take away the cerb's drone bay? Kinda baffled me.
Pestillence Chav-Scum	Posted - 2006.10.29 14:40:00 - [34] Originally by: Deathbarrage Originally by: Taram Caldar Originally by: Xianthar Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker i think the biggest hit to HACs will be the Drake, however HAC will still have their place due to speed and agility. drake has better fire power than the cerb so yea i think the cerb price should drop alot (thank god) and to the other guy on the prices...nighthawk costs me 80mil, cerb costs almost 200mil. -xian Might want to check your facts.... Cerb: 6x Launcher Caldari Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Kinetic Missile damage and 10% bonus to Missile velocity per level Heavy Assault Ship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus Light and Heavy Missile flight time and 5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire per level So at Cruiser 5, HAC 5 the Cerb gets a 50% bonus to damage with kinetic missiles and a 25% bonus to damage with regular missiles: 6x 1.5 = 9 launcher equiv Cerb also gets a 100% bonus to range on missiles making it reach out and touch to over 200km at best levels. Now look at the Drake: 5% bonus to resists & 5% bonus to missile rof for Assault, heavy and heavy assault launchers. So at max BC level the Drake gets a 25% bonus to dmg with missiles 7 x 1.25 = 8.75 (less firepower than Cerb w/o a railgun in slot 8) No range bonus so it's locked to ranges of around 125km or so. It's a better tank but the cerb both out-damages (a bit) it and out-ranges it (a lot). Not to mention the much higher speed/maneuverability. No... Cerb is still the superior ship, as it should be. bar the fact that cerb has 5 launchers, not 6 I'm quoting a whole page so I can write one line!
Scoundrelus Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.29 14:46:00 - [35] Originally by: Deathbarrage Originally by: Scoundrelus Zealot does more damage then the Harbinger. Sacrilege tanks better then the Harbinger. No I think HACs are fine. harbinger does more dmg then zealot And your basing your statement on what factual evidence exactly? The fact that it has more guns? Not diagreeing with you, just trying to find out why, frankly I'd be happy if it did more damage but I'm not much of a number cruncher and the Harbinger isn't on Quickfit. With a Zealot I get 25% bonus to Damage and Firing Rate with 5 Heavy Pulse II. With a Harbinger I'd get a 25% bonus to firing rate with T2 Mediums, I don't know if it can fit 7 Heavy Pulse II. =============================================== We are Watching You.
Deathbarrage	Posted - 2006.10.29 14:49:00 - [36] Originally by: Scoundrelus Originally by: Deathbarrage Originally by: Scoundrelus Zealot does more damage then the Harbinger. Sacrilege tanks better then the Harbinger. No I think HACs are fine. harbinger does more dmg then zealot And your basing your statement on what factual evidence exactly? The fact that it has more guns? Not diagreeing with you, just trying to find out why, frankly I'd be happy if it did more damage but I'm not much of a number cruncher and the Harbinger isn't on Quickfit. With a Zealot I get 25% bonus to Damage and Firing Rate with 5 Heavy Pulse II. With a Harbinger I'd get a 25% bonus to firing rate with T2 Mediums, I don't know if it can fit 7 Heavy Pulse II. well it's 4 HP on the zealot, and 7 on the harbinger they both have ROF bonus so we can neglect that in the calculation zealot with HAC 5 = 11,25 = 5 turrets harbinger = 11 = 7 turrets
CRUSH3R Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.10.29 15:08:00 - [37] I'll kill any hac on AC hurricane in closerange... and if lost it will cost me 25-30 mil only. Hacs will be able to fight vs cruizers\hacs only, new bcs will be better in firepower and sometimes even tankin. So I think the prices will go down..
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.29 15:18:00 - [38] Originally by: CRUSH3R I'll kill any hac on AC hurricane in closerange... and if lost it will cost me 25-30 mil only. Hacs will be able to fight vs cruizers\hacs only, new bcs will be better in firepower and sometimes even tankin. So I think the prices will go down.. It's not the pvp quality that controls price of hacs. Look at deimos price It's more... can ship be used for carebering or not. Remove citadel torpedo flashes!
Talon Calais Gallente Nubs. Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.29 16:04:00 - [39] Edited by: Talon Calais on 29/10/2006 16:04:43 In other news, the Nighthawk has hit 350 mil in Jita. Oh and Vultures are 90.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.29 16:33:00 - [40] Originally by: LUKEC It's not the pvp quality that controls price of hacs. Look at deimos price It's more... can ship be used for carebering or not. By that logic, Vagabonds are ships for Carebears? --------- It's great being a Caldari, ain't it? Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria!
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.29 16:46:00 - [41] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: LUKEC It's not the pvp quality that controls price of hacs. Look at deimos price It's more... can ship be used for carebering or not. By that logic, Vagabonds are ships for Carebears? No, it's just hard to lose them. Trust me, price will drop as soon as 2x wcs on them will make them slightly less useful. Look at price of eagle / cerb and eagle is much better pvp ship in 90% cases. Sacri /zealot ... sacri sucks. Deimos / ishtar... Or the latest phenomena: nighthawk/vulture. Remove citadel torpedo flashes!
Imhotep Khem Vortex.	Posted - 2006.10.29 17:13:00 - [42] Yes, Tier 2 BC will punch the HAC market nicely. A well fit Tier 1 BC can already take a HAC, let alone a Tier 2. Plus Tier 2 BC BPO will be readily available which means the ships will be in large supply, even in 00 space. Also lets not forget the high insurance payout for Tech 1 ships. HAC market will feel the pressure of tier 2 BC. ____ "If your not dyin' your not tryin'." "Are you prepared to go all the way, Alexi?" DuGalle
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.29 17:48:00 - [43] Originally by: Imhotep Khem Yes, Tier 2 BC will punch the HAC market nicely. A well fit Tier 1 BC can already take a HAC, let alone a Tier 2. Plus Tier 2 BC BPO will be readily available which means the ships will be in large supply, even in 00 space. Also lets not forget the high insurance payout for Tech 1 ships. HAC market will feel the pressure of tier 2 BC. IMO a good thing... hacs are way overpriced
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.29 17:53:00 - [44] Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: CRUSH3R I'll kill any hac on AC hurricane in closerange... and if lost it will cost me 25-30 mil only. Hacs will be able to fight vs cruizers\hacs only, new bcs will be better in firepower and sometimes even tankin. So I think the prices will go down.. It's not the pvp quality that controls price of hacs. Look at deimos price It's more... can ship be used for carebering or not. I rarely agree wit hLUKEC, but she's bang on the money on this one...carebears lose ships less often, therefore they are prepared to pay more for them. noe one pays 250 mill for a ships that they know there is a good chance they will lose tomorrow. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.10.29 18:03:00 - [45] Originally by: Imode Big enough. Quite frankly, if the the BC's were going to kill the HAC market, they would have done so already. Drakes are going to kill close range HACs like crazy, so if anything, teir 2 BCs are going to make HAC prices even more insane. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.10.29 18:30:00 - [46] Originally by: Tearavygh Quillam Originally by: Glarion Garnier I expect many ppl will discover Nighthawk as a nice missioning platform after the ROF chainge. Not better or cheaper than a Drake. The NH will still be vadtly superior to the Drake for missions. With Kinetic your DPS will be higher, without kinetic, you'll be marginally lower. The NH's Tank is superior to the Drake's tank as well. Also, the NH's black paint looks cooler, but my god, if they'd make the NH use the Drake model that would just be HOT. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.10.29 18:38:00 - [47] Originally by: LUKEC Or the latest phenomena: nighthawk/vulture. The Ferox/Vulture REALLy need to have atleast one more, if not two more turrets. Vulture damage is horrifically low. I wouldn't be the least bit suprised if a Vulture can't break the tank of many NPC battleships. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Rania Serlia TetraMorph Nexus Inc. The Imperial Order	Posted - 2006.10.29 18:53:00 - [48] Edited by: Rania Serlia on 29/10/2006 18:53:44 Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: LUKEC Or the latest phenomena: nighthawk/vulture. The Ferox/Vulture REALLy need to have atleast one more, if not two more turrets. Vulture damage is horrifically low. I wouldn't be the least bit suprised if a Vulture can't break the tank of many NPC battleships. Vulture is fleet command, the last highslots are for gang mods, not more guns. And vulture is still a nice ship, being able to hit to 210+ with med rails, it's poissibly the best fleet command, able to assist the bettle from afar, and easily able to tank battleship snipers. Agree on the +1 turret for ferox. Merlin and raptor need the same treatment, to be honest. Back on topic, I believe it will impact it a bit, but the mere fact that T2 ships aren't getting the same magnitude of HP boost as T1 would have impacted it a bit anyways, I would think. I expect to see at least a few nano/overdrive hurricanes moving along at a nice 3-4km/s clip in the future, might cut into the vagabond's role slightly. Example My navi skills are pretty sucky too.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.29 19:01:00 - [49] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: LUKEC Or the latest phenomena: nighthawk/vulture. The Ferox/Vulture REALLy need to have atleast one more, if not two more turrets. Vulture damage is horrifically low. I wouldn't be the least bit suprised if a Vulture can't break the tank of many NPC battleships. Actually i belive 3 races miss 1 slot on their l33t battlecruisers. Remove citadel torpedo flashes!
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.10.29 19:28:00 - [50] Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: LUKEC Or the latest phenomena: nighthawk/vulture. The Ferox/Vulture REALLy need to have atleast one more, if not two more turrets. Vulture damage is horrifically low. I wouldn't be the least bit suprised if a Vulture can't break the tank of many NPC battleships. Actually i belive 3 races miss 1 slot on their l33t battlecruisers. True, but in general, the Ferox could really use 1-2 more turrets (and possible 1 more for moa/eagle) because as far as damage goes, the Rail Ferox is a joke, and it gets outgunned by cruisers. Plus for the Ferox, those 7 rails, 1 slot for gang mod would make use of the grid/cpu alot of setups seem to have leftover, or make people use an RCU and/or co-pro to fit the 2 more guns. But yeah in general, giving the missing/lacking slots would be nice. BCs seem almost 'fixed', so maybe by the end of Kali's phases, the Destroyers will be decent as well, as more than just alpha-striking a frig, then getting popped just as fast by a cruiser or larger. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Skrypt Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.29 22:58:00 - [51] Fact of the matter is... I have HAC 5 and (usually) deep pockets.. I'm going to be flying HACs as much as it pains me to do so. ___________
Alexander Knott	Posted - 2006.10.30 00:25:00 - [52] Originally by: Deathbarrage Originally by: Taram Caldar Originally by: Xianthar Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker i think the biggest hit to HACs will be the Drake, however HAC will still have their place due to speed and agility. drake has better fire power than the cerb so yea i think the cerb price should drop alot (thank god) and to the other guy on the prices...nighthawk costs me 80mil, cerb costs almost 200mil. -xian Might want to check your facts.... Cerb: 6x Launcher Caldari Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Kinetic Missile damage and 10% bonus to Missile velocity per level Heavy Assault Ship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus Light and Heavy Missile flight time and 5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire per level So at Cruiser 5, HAC 5 the Cerb gets a 50% bonus to damage with kinetic missiles and a 25% bonus to damage with regular missiles: 6x 1.5 = 9 launcher equiv Cerb also gets a 100% bonus to range on missiles making it reach out and touch to over 200km at best levels. Now look at the Drake: 5% bonus to resists & 5% bonus to missile rof for Assault, heavy and heavy assault launchers. So at max BC level the Drake gets a 25% bonus to dmg with missiles 7 x 1.25 = 8.75 (less firepower than Cerb w/o a railgun in slot 8) No range bonus so it's locked to ranges of around 125km or so. It's a better tank but the cerb both out-damages (a bit) it and out-ranges it (a lot). Not to mention the much higher speed/maneuverability. No... Cerb is still the superior ship, as it should be. bar the fact that cerb has 5 launchers, not 6 Also, a 25% RoF bonus is not a 25% damage bonus. It's 1.0/(1.0-0.25), or a 33% damage bonus.
Aion Amarra Minmatar ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.30 02:42:00 - [53] Originally by: Alexander Knott Also, a 25% RoF bonus is not a 25% damage bonus. It's 1.0/(1.0-0.25), or a 33% damage bonus. Bar the fact that the math is generally very screwy. A 50% flight time and a 50% velocity bonus means 100% x 1.5 x 1.5 = 225% range, or 125% more range than normal. Not 100% more. Because bonuses multiply, not add up. Same goes for damage mods. Even IF the RoF only equaled 25% more damage (as it doesn't as mentioned by Alexander), you'd still be looking at 100% * 1.25 * 1,25 = 156,25% which is a 56,25% increase in damage, not a 50% one. Since RoF shortens the time to refire, and doesn't directly increase the damage (as shown by Alexander), we're looking at (100% * 1.25) / 0.75 = 166.66% or an increase in DPS by two thirds. Hence we are looking at 8.33 effective launchers for the cerb, compared to the 7 / 0.75 = 9.33 effective launchers of the Drake. In addition, the damage bonus for the cerb only counts for kinetic missiles, so if you use any other damagetype, the cerb only deals the damage of 6.66 instead of 8.33 launchers. Result: Drake wtfpwns Cerb for Damage, while Cerb wtfpwns Drake for range. ________ Capitalization is the difference between "I helped my uncle Jack off his horse." and "I helped my uncle jack off his horse." Help the horses, make proper use of that shift button.
Cletus Graeme Caldari Bladerunners Mordus Angels	Posted - 2006.10.30 03:37:00 - [54] Edited by: Cletus Graeme on 30/10/2006 03:41:11 Originally by: Taram Caldar That is something I always wondered about. Why would you take away the cerb's drone bay? Kinda baffled me. You answered that question yourself. Cerb has a 200km range as does the Eagle. Caldari specialise in long range combat and their HACs are perfect examples of this. At such ranges drones are useless. In contrast, the drake is designed to use assault missiles aswell so it a mid range missile boat (like the raven before it) and therefore also uses drones.
Electric Cucumber Amarr The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.10.30 06:39:00 - [55] Edited by: Electric Cucumber on 30/10/2006 06:39:28 I think that once i lose my zealot i'll just get a harbinger and use that in future . more turrets,+ agility boost, costs WAY less to lose.
Victor Valka Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.30 07:32:00 - [56] Tier2 battlecruisers will put a nice dent in HAC prices. One that won't be missed by most. Could bring the expansive ones down to 150 million, maybe less. We'll see. Might even bring commandships down a little but I wouldn't hold my breath, that's for sure.
Logan Xerxes Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.30 07:55:00 - [57] Originally by: Cletus Graeme In contrast, the drake is designed to use assault missiles aswell so it a mid range missile boat (like the raven before it) and therefore also uses drones. Most people will be using their HAM's at sub 10km ranges. That's hardly "midrange." "Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them by confusion." -Sun Tzu
Victor Valka Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.30 09:18:00 - [58] Originally by: Logan Xerxes Originally by: Cletus Graeme In contrast, the drake is designed to use assault missiles aswell so it a mid range missile boat (like the raven before it) and therefore also uses drones. Most people will be using their HAM's at sub 10km ranges. That's hardly "midrange." That will be kind difficult. Considering that: Drake will handle like a brick, even with the 20% agility boost. To boot, it's damn slow too, and due to mass it will be a real pain to bring it up to speed, even with an MWD. I foresee a lot of pretty explosions. Wonder what color they will be for Drake...
Galen Silas Gallente Digital assassins	Posted - 2006.10.30 14:31:00 - [59] Originally by: Imode Big enough. Quite frankly, if the the BC's were going to kill the HAC market, they would have done so already. Not to be rude but it was asked if Tier 2 BC's would do it, not T1.
Estan Drake	Posted - 2006.10.30 19:31:00 - [60] The Hacs wil still be more versitile and will take less damage from other cruisers/battlecruisers/ and battleships due to theit T2 resists, Smaller signatures, and higher speed. Damage output is another story and you can argue on that. The tier 2 BCs will be a boon for the poeple who havn't trained for tech 2 ships though so you will have a more slightly more competitive ship at less SP. Doesn't exactly cut into the T2 market at all though. I expect invention will go a lot farther in that.

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