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Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.10.25 12:31:00 - [1] (I know, I know, the cardinal sin of addressing a thread's topic to a dev. But I want answers, damn it!) Only a brief question. As the Hyperion isn't seeded on Sisi yet (or wasn't last I checked, anyhow), and it's stats basically make it a not very good ship (can't use blasters better than a Mega, can't use rails better than a Mega, can't really tank that much better than a Mega in anything but a dedicated tanking setup), is the Hype's stats on Sisi final? Or is it still a work in progress? -----------------------------------------------
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.25 12:32:00 - [2] Is Kali Final? No? Then neither is the Hyperion ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.10.25 12:35:00 - [3] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Is Kali Final? No? Then neither is the Hyperion Heh, true. But I kinda mean in the wider sense. I mean, all the other ships seem to be ready for release, jsut with tweaking. But the fact the Hype isn't seeded on Sisi yet, combined with it's general sucky stats, I was wondering oif those stats actually bear any resemblance to what the Hype's gonna be. -----------------------------------------------
FawKa Gallente Old Farts The Phantom Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.25 12:36:00 - [4] Edited by: FawKa on 25/10/2006 12:38:20 /me runs around myself, tearing my hair out and screaming out in total panic ! Relax guys, things isnt final! Edit: Good idea to give the devs a clue that the hype is worse than a mega for anything is can do tho . More dronebay - its gallente more grid - it is like an old Deimos? switch of a med- for a low-slot - Only gallente drone ships has 5 meds due to the possible fitting of shieldtanking for gallente. Gun boats needs lows more than meds. etc
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.25 12:36:00 - [5] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Is Kali Final? No? Then neither is the Hyperion Oh, yes, if only that sort of logic worked. Sadly, it doesn't. - What am I listening to?
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.25 12:42:00 - [6] Not that it is wise turning this into a discussion about the Hyperion balance. Tux won't ever answer then, but suffice to say: 1. The low to mid slot balance is entirely dependant on the ship's concept and execution. 2. It needs to be less like the Megathron and BETTER in it's own role. - What am I listening to?
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.10.25 12:49:00 - [7] Originally by: Ithildin Not that it is wise turning this into a discussion about the Hyperion balance. Tux won't ever answer then, but suffice to say: 1. The low to mid slot balance is entirely dependant on the ship's concept and execution. 2. It needs to be less like the Megathron and BETTER in it's own role. Indeedy. It seems odd that the Hype is, basically, a Mega, whichever way you look at it. I mean sure it has differences, but it's trying to fill a role that another ship was already perfect for- thats always going to be difficult to do, and kind of pointless to boot. At worst it'll fail to beat the old ship at that job, and at best it beats the old ship, putting it out of a job. -----------------------------------------------
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.25 12:50:00 - [8] I really like the Hyperion as it is, to be honest. To further improve it, I would add; 1) Even more agility 2) A little more powergrid Then it would be perfect. Its still bloody good though. Will be the kind of small gang combat.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.25 12:57:00 - [9] Butter Dog, as it is right now it's either rest in peace Megathron or rest in peace Hyperion. It's a flawed concept, they need to clean it up so you can clearly say "use the Megathron for X and Hyperion for Y". Right now it's "Use either Megathron or Hyperion for X, but only Megathron for Y". That's wrong. So: Are the stats on the Hyperion still in development and review, or have they been locked? - What am I listening to?
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.25 13:01:00 - [10] Originally by: Ithildin So: Are the stats on the Hyperion still in development and review, or have they been locked? I too would like the answer to this, cause as it is now, it's an overpriced Megathron-lite. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort

Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.10.25 13:02:00 - [11] Ah, it would appear Tux isn't going to reply- he just replied to another thread right next to it Oh well, we may just have to wait and see............... -----------------------------------------------
Magunus The Forsakened Few The ARR0W Project	Posted - 2006.10.25 13:04:00 - [12] Originally by: Ithildin Butter Dog, as it is right now it's either rest in peace Megathron or rest in peace Hyperion. It's a flawed concept, they need to clean it up so you can clearly say "use the Megathron for X and Hyperion for Y". Right now it's "Use either Megathron or Hyperion for X, but only Megathron for Y". That's wrong. So: Are the stats on the Hyperion still in development and review, or have they been locked? Features aren't locked, they were modifying stuff yesterday. I would suggest submitting a bug report, though, to make sure the information makes it back up the chain. I'm sure most of the people working on this kind of thing don't have time to read forums. --- In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, 'The Restaurant at the End of the Universe'
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.25 13:06:00 - [13] It's not a bug, it's a balance issue. And just because other stuff is being balanced says nothing whether the Hyperion has been put in the "done, let's ignore it" pile. - What am I listening to?
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.10.25 13:08:00 - [14] Originally by: Ithildin It's not a bug, it's a balance issue. And just because other stuff is being balanced says nothing whether the Hyperion has been put in the "done, let's ignore it" pile. Its not even that that I'm curious about. The fact it isn't seeded like the other ships are says to me that maybe the stats we're looking at have not much to do with the final build- alot less than the other ones, which are clearly considered done enough to start testing. Then agian, it might just be that the model isn't ready. -----------------------------------------------
Magunus The Forsakened Few The ARR0W Project	Posted - 2006.10.25 13:23:00 - [15] Originally by: Ithildin It's not a bug, it's a balance issue. And just because other stuff is being balanced says nothing whether the Hyperion has been put in the "done, let's ignore it" pile. The bug reporting system is the only way to get information like this to the people that can do something about it. If you truly don't believe there's anything to be done about it, why do you get on the test server at all? I think you're being a bit overly negative. Besides, I happen to know that you're wrong here. When we were testing stuff for exodus, I bug reported the fact that the cerberus could run a shield booster, stealth mod, tech 2 AB, etc, and be damn near invincible and run it all full time in full gank/tank setup. A bughunter convo'd me in about 15 minutes asking for specifics and to meet me somewhere to show it to him. I did, and things were changed, stealth modules didn't make it into the game. I can't say it's solely because of that particular report, but I can say balance issues aren't ignored. --- In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, 'The Restaurant at the End of the Universe'
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.10.25 13:25:00 - [16] Originally by: Magunus Originally by: Ithildin It's not a bug, it's a balance issue. And just because other stuff is being balanced says nothing whether the Hyperion has been put in the "done, let's ignore it" pile. The bug reporting system is the only way to get information like this to the people that can do something about it. If you truly don't believe there's anything to be done about it, why do you get on the test server at all? I think you're being a bit overly negative. Besides, I happen to know that you're wrong here. When we were testing stuff for exodus, I bug reported the fact that the cerberus could run a shield booster, stealth mod, tech 2 AB, etc, and be damn near invincible and run it all full time in full gank/tank setup. A bughunter convo'd me in about 15 minutes asking for specifics and to meet me somewhere to show it to him. I did, and things were changed, stealth modules didn't make it into the game. I can't say it's solely because of that particular report, but I can say balance issues aren't ignored. It's not seeded on Sisi yet, so we can't actually test it, per se. 'Tis all theoretical, atm. -----------------------------------------------
Lucus Ranger Gallente The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.10.25 14:26:00 - [17] Actually it was seeded last night, was testing it and tbh.. it sucked.. hard.. I didn't notice and real difference in speed/agility wise and it didn't really outdamage the Megathron. Also they haven't finished the modal for it yet (it was using the Mega's modal) so I assume that it's still got alot of tweaks needing to be done to it.. At the moment though.. Megathron > Hyperion all the way imo..
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.25 14:30:00 - [18] It's seeded, it's just that the hull looks like a Megathron. They've not finished/implemented the Hyperion hull yet. - What am I listening to?
Lucus Ranger Gallente The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.10.25 14:33:00 - [19] I'm just thinking.. Maybe they should give it 2x Damage Bonus.. 10% to Blaster Damage per level.. Give it enough PG to be able to fit 8x Neutrons and a MWD..
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.10.25 16:52:00 - [20] I demand to be moved to the Kali forum! Well...........not so much demand.........you can have a cookie if you do? -----------------------------------------------

Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.25 16:58:00 - [21] I haven't had chance to test it yet, but I have crunched the numbers on some ideas for setups, and IÆm reserving judgement till I have the thing fully fitted out. However, it is not a Megathron, and trying to shoe-horn a Megathron setup onto it probably won't work. Saying it can't really tank better than a Megathron is plainly incorrect when you have a +37.5% bonus per repairer. So before yelling for changes lets at least try the thing thoroughly... ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.10.25 17:04:00 - [22] Originally by: Gabriel Karade I haven't had chance to test it yet, but I have crunched the numbers on some ideas for setups, and IÆm reserving judgement till I have the thing fully fitted out. However, it is not a Megathron, and trying to shoe-horn a Megathron setup onto it probably won't work. Saying it can't really tank better than a Megathron is plainly incorrect when you have a +37.5% bonus per repairer. So before yelling for changes lets at least try the thing thoroughly... That is true, but the slot set-up means (in my vague attempts to fit one) it's missing a low slot. It takes a long time for that repper bonus to make up for a missing 1600mm plate, or a EANM. Go read that gigantic Hyperion thread for a better informed answser. -----------------------------------------------
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.25 17:37:00 - [23] Originally by: Patch86 Originally by: Gabriel Karade I haven't had chance to test it yet, but I have crunched the numbers on some ideas for setups, and IÆm reserving judgement till I have the thing fully fitted out. However, it is not a Megathron, and trying to shoe-horn a Megathron setup onto it probably won't work. Saying it can't really tank better than a Megathron is plainly incorrect when you have a +37.5% bonus per repairer. So before yelling for changes lets at least try the thing thoroughly... That is true, but the slot set-up means (in my vague attempts to fit one) it's missing a low slot. It takes a long time for that repper bonus to make up for a missing 1600mm plate, or a EANM. Go read that gigantic Hyperion thread for a better informed answser. Yes, however, that does not take into account the threshold at which damage starts to break through. The time to æcatch upÆ is only relevant if the damage > your repair threshold. If that threshold is high enough you simply won't break through (capacitor concerns obviously come into this). On a Hyperion that threshold is going to be very high, so high infact that without Heavy drones, a Megathron with Void L and less than three damage modules probably won't be able to break the tank. I'm really looking forward to seeing this puppy in action. ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Gierling Gallente Celestial Fleet Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.25 17:41:00 - [24] Its also kinda sad that its got a lower lock range then the new Battlecruiser. That just seems specious.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.10.25 17:48:00 - [25] This kind of maths hurts my head Assuming we're talking about PvP here, I'm guessing the battle isn't going to last more than a couple of minutes, right? With it's bonus, 1x LAR II repairs about 1000HP every 15 seconds. After the HP boost, a 1600mm rolled tungsten plate will be worth about 4800. That means that the time it'll take for one of it's LARs to make up for that lost low slot is about 75 seconds, or 1 minute 15 seconds. Which, imo, is a fairly long time for PvP. Not only that, but it'll burn alot of Cap to do it, too. BUT, the Mega would have a LAR aswell, right? So all we're really talking about is the 37.5% boost trying to make up for it. So: with it's bonus, it does an extra 250 or so repping with a LAR II. The time it'll take this 250 extra reppin every 15 seconds to make up for that missing 1600mm plate would be 20 cycles (roughly), 300 seconds, or 5 minutes. How amny PvP battles do you think last 5 minutes, the time it'll take for that bonus to pay off that missing low slot? -----------------------------------------------
Aypse Sanguine Legion Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.25 20:27:00 - [26] Edited by: Aypse on 25/10/2006 20:28:29 Edit: Forum deleted my post Is the real problem not with the Mega or with the Hype? Is it really with the low fitting requirements of the 1600mm plate? Why is it that I often find myself fitting an oversized-BS plate on my CRUISER? Now, correct me if I am wrong, but I thought this was the way plates were 'supposed' to be fitted: Frig: 50mm-400mm (400mm in extreme-tank situations) cruiser: 400mm-800mm (800mm in extreme-tank roles) BC: 400mm-800mm (800mm is hard to fit, but can still fit with a balanced setup) BS: 800mm-1600mm (800mm is 'standard', 1600mm forces the pilot to fit the lowest guns and into a tank setup) The 1600mm plate is supposed to be an over-sized plate, not a standard plate, but they are so easy to fit, they have become standard size. It appears to me that we all fit oversized plates on our ships, because they are easier to fit than an appropriate sized repairer. If we made plates harder to fit and moved people down a plate size (800mm MAX on cruiser). What the hell does this have to do with the Mega and Hype? Increase fitting requirements forces the Mega to go more 'gank' and the hype to go more 'tank.' This will create a broader line between the two ships as well as drawning a more defined line between Cruiser-BC-BS. Are we sure that they are not increasing HPs across the board in preparation for a increase in fitting requirements for plates and extenders???? That is what I want to know.
Aypse Sanguine Legion Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.25 20:29:00 - [27] Edited by: Aypse on 25/10/2006 20:29:29 Double post.
xenodia Gallente RONA Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.25 20:30:00 - [28] This should be in the "Kali Discussions" forum. This signature space for rent
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.25 22:04:00 - [29] Edited by: Butter Dog on 25/10/2006 22:05:36 Originally by: Patch86 This kind of maths hurts my head Assuming we're talking about PvP here, I'm guessing the battle isn't going to last more than a couple of minutes, right? With it's bonus, 1x LAR II repairs about 1000HP every 15 seconds. After the HP boost, a 1600mm rolled tungsten plate will be worth about 4800. That means that the time it'll take for one of it's LARs to make up for that lost low slot is about 75 seconds, or 1 minute 15 seconds. Which, imo, is a fairly long time for PvP. Not only that, but it'll burn alot of Cap to do it, too. BUT, the Mega would have a LAR aswell, right? So all we're really talking about is the 37.5% boost trying to make up for it. So: with it's bonus, it does an extra 250 or so repping with a LAR II. The time it'll take this 250 extra reppin every 15 seconds to make up for that missing 1600mm plate would be 20 cycles (roughly), 300 seconds, or 5 minutes. How amny PvP battles do you think last 5 minutes, the time it'll take for that bonus to pay off that missing low slot? You're assuming crappy skills here. Do you get a 15 second cycle time on your repper? I dont Plus, the bonus for LARII will mean you are repping more like 1120. Or, a Core-X repper. Wow. You can fit a great tank in the 6 lows. The extra gun makes up for the lack of damage mod. What you have in effect, is Megathron DPS with a VASTLY superior tank, more agility, more CPU, and an extra mid for a web or painter. Its actually a really good ship.
Jazz Bo Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.10.25 22:23:00 - [30] Originally by: Ithildin It's seeded, it's just that the hull looks like a Megathron. They've not finished/implemented the Hyperion hull yet. I also really hope that they haven't implemented the Hyperion's agility and mass either. It doesn't seem to turn any better, and moves a little over 1200m/s with a 100mn MWD II. I honestly can't think of a single reason to use one over the Megathron, especially considering it's going to cost more. Quote: Pew pew... ka-boom.... pew pew... squishhh

Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.25 22:27:00 - [31] Originally by: Jazz Bo I honestly can't think of a single reason to use one over the Megathron, especially considering it's going to cost more. I'd happily 1v1 your mega in a hype and prove you wrong. You simply won't be able to break my tank. Your cap will run out way before mine due to your nasty inefficent reppers. Then you will die :)
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2006.10.26 01:37:00 - [32] Yeh, I dont get the Hyperion. Its basically just a Megathron, with little more armor. You get armor rep bonus, but lose a lowslot, so basically a wash (some would say this is worse than Mega). You get 1 more midslot, but no tracking bonus, so you need tracking comp to compensate, so again a wash. So you have a Megathron, with 8 gun slots, and no extra grid/cpu to fit the extra gun. Umm, cool I guess, but whats the point? I think the Hyperion might be the better sniper platform too.
Imode Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.26 01:49:00 - [33] How about give it enough grid to fit Neutrons with a single rep tank. That way you can actually forgo the usual 5% hybrid damage bonus and give it some true bonuses fit for blasters like the 7.5% tracking bonus and a microwarp drive bonus. ____________________________ Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes
Fuglife Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.10.26 01:53:00 - [34] Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: Jazz Bo I honestly can't think of a single reason to use one over the Megathron, especially considering it's going to cost more. I'd happily 1v1 your mega in a hype and prove you wrong. You simply won't be able to break my tank. Your cap will run out way before mine due to your nasty inefficent reppers. Then you will die :) il take you up on that and i may just give you that domi if you win --- Lodhi ftg
Jazz Bo Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.10.26 08:43:00 - [35] Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: Jazz Bo I honestly can't think of a single reason to use one over the Megathron, especially considering it's going to cost more. I'd happily 1v1 your mega in a hype and prove you wrong. You simply won't be able to break my tank. Your cap will run out way before mine due to your nasty inefficent reppers. Then you will die :) If it comes out as it is now, sure, let's give it a go. Quote: Pew pew... ka-boom.... pew pew... squishhh
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.26 08:44:00 - [36] Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: Jazz Bo I honestly can't think of a single reason to use one over the Megathron, especially considering it's going to cost more. I'd happily 1v1 your mega in a hype and prove you wrong. You simply won't be able to break my tank. Your cap will run out way before mine due to your nasty inefficent reppers. Then you will die :) Pray tell, are you happy with the Hyperion as a concept? I'm not currently in the mood of arguing with you whether an armour tanking amount bonus is good on a blaster ship (it's not), or whether there are batter bonuses out there (there are), I'm interested in if you - hand on heart - can say that the Hyperion is unique enough that it is isn't a repetition of what the Gallente already have in the battleship line. Or, put it differently, is the Hyperion not a bigger Megathron? And I'm not talking about tiny changes in numbers. - What am I listening to?
Laboratus Gallente BGG Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.26 08:50:00 - [37] I'm really hoping they do the following: Drop the rep bonus for a Sensor damp bonus Increase the drone bay to 125m, it's a gallanten boat after all. (not to mention a single heavy drone gives about as much dps as a blaster) Decrease mass about 10% Increase PG about 10% Keep the slots as they are That would make it work. But, at the moment, it's a bit... Half done. Mind control and tin hats
Keitaro Baka Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project	Posted - 2006.10.26 08:55:00 - [38] My biggest fear is them actually remodelling the ship .. The sketches looked so kewl with the weird ring of thrusters in the center.. ooow I can't use guns but if it looks like that I'll get me one as an oversized shopping cart.. Seriously tho it looks a bit outclassed by the megathron especially since (if my calculations are correct from the bpo info if that is correct :) nothing being final and all) the base cost of those things is about 150M in minerals .. If you want a tier 3 BS fast start getting those 200-250 M iskies ready .. - All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me - Pure drone user... give us a mini carrier and faction Typhoon and Dominix please
Loka Gallente adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.26 09:36:00 - [39] Edited by: Loka on 26/10/2006 09:36:42 Edited by: Loka on 26/10/2006 09:36:15 All that whiner here saying "Hyperion is **, Megathron do it all better or same good" show me. Prove it. Everyone can say the skys are falling. Yes with Rails Megathron > Hyperion. NO with Blasters Hyperion > Megathron. Easy as that. Hyperion 4x Electron II, 4x Ion II heavy Injector, MWD, Scrambler, Webber, 1 EW Module of choice (Target Painter II maybe or another Webber?) 2x LAR II, EANM II, DCU, 2x Mag II 12750 HULL E/T/K/Ex=50/50/50/50 11250 shield, 18.75/s, E/T/K/Ex=7/25/44/62 12000 armor, E/T/K/Ex=72/56/56/38 5400.0 cap, +14.7/s, -151.791/s 936.25 DPS without DRONES Megathronsetup 7x Neutrons II heavy Injector, MWD, Scrambler, Webber MAR II, 2x 1600mm Tungsten, EANM II, 3x Mag II 7500 HULL E/T/K/Ex=0/0/0/0 6211 shield, 10.35/s, E/T/K/Ex=0/20/40/60 14741 armor, E/T/K/Ex=69/50/50/31 4218.75 cap, +14.92/s, -101.258/s 1016 DPS without DRONES OK NOW TELL ME AGAIN THE MEGATHRON is better. When the Hyperion with close DPS will have double Hull/Shields, 50% res on HULL and more Damage reduction on Armor/Shields, 1300 more cap. Has a HP regeneration of 2200 per Cycle, which will give you 200 HP/s and a spare MEDSLOT for EW!!!! The Megathron will have 25m¦ more Dronebay, almost 70 DPS more and while NULL L a better Optimal. And because its plated it has 2700 more Armor to start with. The Dual repper will have catched up after 13sec, btw!!!!! I dunno what you guyes eat for breakfast, but better bring some arguing instead of "That Sux, because i say so". Ignorance 4tl. You can fit the same Megathronsetup on a Hyperion btw, if you fit only 7 Neutrons or fit 8 and have no tank like the Megathron. 8x Neutron II med Injector, MWD, Scrambler, Webber, 1x EW (Target Painter II maybe or another Webber?) 1x SAR II, 1600mm Tungsten, DCU/EANM II, 3x Mag II 12750 HULL E/T/K/Ex=50/50/50/50 11250 shield, 18.75/s, E/T/K/Ex=7/25/44/62 16200 armor, E/T/K/Ex=64/41/41/19 5400.0 cap, +14.7/s, -92.991/s 1161 DPS without DRONES So here we are. The Megathronsetup lost his 2k more armor advantage and is now 150 DPS behind, while having an extra EW slot. Nice one guys, you have no clue. So you gain what again? Ah right, 25m¦ Dronebay. YEAH, nice. So the Hyperion will be better in fitting good DMG and good Tank, while still outperforming the Megathron in a pure DPS Ganksetup. Oh and the SAR II on the hyperion will repair almost same as the MAR II on the Megathron, because of the Bonus. So either my calculations are wrong, iam not jesus, or you all are just baised on the first impression without playing with numbers. _________________________ Noob In Action - [NIA]**
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.26 09:47:00 - [40] Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: Jazz Bo I honestly can't think of a single reason to use one over the Megathron, especially considering it's going to cost more. I'd happily 1v1 your mega in a hype and prove you wrong. You simply won't be able to break my tank. Your cap will run out way before mine due to your nasty inefficent reppers. Then you will die :) Pray tell, are you happy with the Hyperion as a concept? I'm not currently in the mood of arguing with you whether an armour tanking amount bonus is good on a blaster ship (it's not), or whether there are batter bonuses out there (there are), I'm interested in if you - hand on heart - can say that the Hyperion is unique enough that it is isn't a repetition of what the Gallente already have in the battleship line. Or, put it differently, is the Hyperion not a bigger Megathron? And I'm not talking about tiny changes in numbers. Good question. I really do see the value in the repping bonus. You have to remember Kali = 50% more HP. Fights are going to last a lot longer. Rigs can increase tanks significantly too. Think of the whole Kali package, for it is this package which these ships will be launched within. HP increase + rigs = longer fights. Bearing HP/Rigs/Longer fights in mind, that repping bonus will mean you would have to be pretty insane to use a Mega in preference of a Hyperion as a blaster boat. Mega will be moved to a sniping role, effectively. I do think though, that the Hyperion needs a few 'enhancements' to make it worth the extra cost over the mega. More agility, a little more PG (say 1500 more than mega, which seems balanced), and they should make the 5% damage bonus apply to tracking too, keeping the rep bonus. Then I would be 100% happy with the ship and its balance in the game.

Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.26 09:51:00 - [41] Originally by: Laboratus I'm really hoping they do the following: Drop the rep bonus for a Sensor damp bonus Increase the drone bay to 125m, it's a gallanten boat after all. (not to mention a single heavy drone gives about as much dps as a blaster) Decrease mass about 10% Increase PG about 10% Keep the slots as they are That would make it work. But, at the moment, it's a bit... Half done. Are you insane? What good will a damp bonus do a blaster boat?! The Hyperion is already MORE agile than the Mega, has WAY MORE tank, LOADS more HP, a 5th mid, and more CPU. Get a grip, guys!
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.26 11:05:00 - [42] Butter Dog, you didn't answer my question. Disregard the stats, does the Hyperion perform inside or outside a role the Gallente battleship line up already has? What does the Hyperion contribute? Also, bear in mind that the Hyperion is: Not more agile than the Megathron (same agility, same mass) Does not have significantly more hit points Does not have more fitting, effectively As to the question "what would a dampener bonus do?". A dampener bonus would do more for the ships tank than a repair bonus does. Depending on target. The average damage of a battleship is around 800 dps. With a dampener bonus, you could shut down that much damage as long as it's not a sniper or a blaster boat, provided the Hyperion would be given adequate mid slots to perform the dampener role on a battleship level. All this without requiring insane capacitor or insane fitting requirements, but at the expense of 3 mid slots per target ship. The Hyperion would need at least 6 mid slots to perform well as a dampener boat. The only concern here is that a dampener bonus of merely 5% on a battleship level might be too insignificant/weak to make enough of a difference considering that a battleship can not take advantage of one half of the dampeners' effect very easily. But the important thing is, it would provide something for the Gallente battleship line that is as of yet not provided. The Hyperion would not, and I do apologise for asking a rhetorical question, Butter Dog. - What am I listening to?
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.10.26 11:33:00 - [43] Originally by: Butter Dog Edited by: Butter Dog on 25/10/2006 22:05:36 Originally by: Patch86 This kind of maths hurts my head Assuming we're talking about PvP here, I'm guessing the battle isn't going to last more than a couple of minutes, right? With it's bonus, 1x LAR II repairs about 1000HP every 15 seconds. After the HP boost, a 1600mm rolled tungsten plate will be worth about 4800. That means that the time it'll take for one of it's LARs to make up for that lost low slot is about 75 seconds, or 1 minute 15 seconds. Which, imo, is a fairly long time for PvP. Not only that, but it'll burn alot of Cap to do it, too. BUT, the Mega would have a LAR aswell, right? So all we're really talking about is the 37.5% boost trying to make up for it. So: with it's bonus, it does an extra 250 or so repping with a LAR II. The time it'll take this 250 extra reppin every 15 seconds to make up for that missing 1600mm plate would be 20 cycles (roughly), 300 seconds, or 5 minutes. How amny PvP battles do you think last 5 minutes, the time it'll take for that bonus to pay off that missing low slot? You're assuming crappy skills here. Do you get a 15 second cycle time on your repper? I dont Plus, the bonus for LARII will mean you are repping more like 1120. Or, a Core-X repper. Wow. You can fit a great tank in the 6 lows. The extra gun makes up for the lack of damage mod. What you have in effect, is Megathron DPS with a VASTLY superior tank, more agility, more CPU, and an extra mid for a web or painter. Its actually a really good ship. Heh, I did say this math hurts my head Ok, so going with your numbers, lets say a cycle is 10 seconds, the repping is 1100HP. Thats about......what, 350 extra you're getting from the ship bonus? The time it'd take 350HP every 10 seconds to burn off that missing 1600mm plate would be 14 cycles, 140 seconds, or 2 minutes and 20 seconds. So you still need to be in a fight for about 2 and a half minutes before you'll see the benefit of the better tank, and I still don't think thats anything to get excited about. -----------------------------------------------
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.26 11:42:00 - [44] Originally by: Ithildin I'm not currently in the mood of arguing with you whether an armour tanking amount bonus is good on a blaster ship (it's not), or whether there are batter bonuses out there (there are), I'm interested in if you - hand on heart - can say that the Hyperion is unique enough that it is isn't a repetition of what the Gallente already have in the battleship line. Its the same thing for all 3 battleships except the Rohk. CCP should have given them entirely different roles than the ones some other ships already filled. I dont know why they didnt. Now we are all arguing about how little these new ships bring to the table, for their cost. Tier 3 was supposed to be different, and they are (kind of), but not in a good way. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.26 11:59:00 - [45] Originally by: Patch86 Originally by: Butter Dog Edited by: Butter Dog on 25/10/2006 22:05:36 Originally by: Patch86 This kind of maths hurts my head Assuming we're talking about PvP here, I'm guessing the battle isn't going to last more than a couple of minutes, right? With it's bonus, 1x LAR II repairs about 1000HP every 15 seconds. After the HP boost, a 1600mm rolled tungsten plate will be worth about 4800. That means that the time it'll take for one of it's LARs to make up for that lost low slot is about 75 seconds, or 1 minute 15 seconds. Which, imo, is a fairly long time for PvP. Not only that, but it'll burn alot of Cap to do it, too. BUT, the Mega would have a LAR aswell, right? So all we're really talking about is the 37.5% boost trying to make up for it. So: with it's bonus, it does an extra 250 or so repping with a LAR II. The time it'll take this 250 extra reppin every 15 seconds to make up for that missing 1600mm plate would be 20 cycles (roughly), 300 seconds, or 5 minutes. How amny PvP battles do you think last 5 minutes, the time it'll take for that bonus to pay off that missing low slot? You're assuming crappy skills here. Do you get a 15 second cycle time on your repper? I dont Plus, the bonus for LARII will mean you are repping more like 1120. Or, a Core-X repper. Wow. You can fit a great tank in the 6 lows. The extra gun makes up for the lack of damage mod. What you have in effect, is Megathron DPS with a VASTLY superior tank, more agility, more CPU, and an extra mid for a web or painter. Its actually a really good ship. Heh, I did say this math hurts my head Ok, so going with your numbers, lets say a cycle is 10 seconds, the repping is 1100HP. Thats about......what, 350 extra you're getting from the ship bonus? The time it'd take 350HP every 10 seconds to burn off that missing 1600mm plate would be 14 cycles, 140 seconds, or 2 minutes and 20 seconds. So you still need to be in a fight for about 2 and a half minutes before you'll see the benefit of the better tank, and I still don't think thats anything to get excited about. No, no, no! You need to count the WHOLE repair cycle, not the difference between the bonus and standard rep amounts. If you are fitting a plate INSTEAD of a repper, you will cover the HP gained by the plate in 5 cycles. Not 14!
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.26 12:03:00 - [46] Originally by: Ithildin Butter Dog, you didn't answer my question. Disregard the stats, does the Hyperion perform inside or outside a role the Gallente battleship line up already has? What does the Hyperion contribute? Also, bear in mind that the Hyperion is: Not more agile than the Megathron (same agility, same mass) Does not have significantly more hit points Does not have more fitting, effectively As to the question "what would a dampener bonus do?". A dampener bonus would do more for the ships tank than a repair bonus does. Depending on target. The average damage of a battleship is around 800 dps. With a dampener bonus, you could shut down that much damage as long as it's not a sniper or a blaster boat, provided the Hyperion would be given adequate mid slots to perform the dampener role on a battleship level. All this without requiring insane capacitor or insane fitting requirements, but at the expense of 3 mid slots per target ship. The Hyperion would need at least 6 mid slots to perform well as a dampener boat. The only concern here is that a dampener bonus of merely 5% on a battleship level might be too insignificant/weak to make enough of a difference considering that a battleship can not take advantage of one half of the dampeners' effect very easily. But the important thing is, it would provide something for the Gallente battleship line that is as of yet not provided. The Hyperion would not, and I do apologise for asking a rhetorical question, Butter Dog. Well its a valid question, is it brining anything new to the Gallente arsenal? And the answer has to be no. But, it is still a great blaster platform. Far better than the Mega. Point taken on the damps, but in its current state you can only really fit one. Given that will only result in about a 5 second lock delay to the average BS, I'd say its not worth it. Its certainly not worth it over the armor rep bonus.
Aypse Sanguine Legion Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.26 12:22:00 - [47] Originally by: Butter Dog No, no, no! You need to count the WHOLE repair cycle, not the difference between the bonus and standard rep amounts. If you are fitting a plate INSTEAD of a repper, you will cover the HP gained by the plate in 5 cycles. Not 14! Thats it! I knew there was something wrong with the way people were caluculating the bonus but I could not put my finger on it. With the HP changes, I think BS sized battles will last long enough for a Hype's bonus to be beneficial.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.10.26 12:25:00 - [48] Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: Patch86 Originally by: Butter Dog Edited by: Butter Dog on 25/10/2006 22:05:36 Originally by: Patch86 This kind of maths hurts my head Assuming we're talking about PvP here, I'm guessing the battle isn't going to last more than a couple of minutes, right? With it's bonus, 1x LAR II repairs about 1000HP every 15 seconds. After the HP boost, a 1600mm rolled tungsten plate will be worth about 4800. That means that the time it'll take for one of it's LARs to make up for that lost low slot is about 75 seconds, or 1 minute 15 seconds. Which, imo, is a fairly long time for PvP. Not only that, but it'll burn alot of Cap to do it, too. BUT, the Mega would have a LAR aswell, right? So all we're really talking about is the 37.5% boost trying to make up for it. So: with it's bonus, it does an extra 250 or so repping with a LAR II. The time it'll take this 250 extra reppin every 15 seconds to make up for that missing 1600mm plate would be 20 cycles (roughly), 300 seconds, or 5 minutes. How amny PvP battles do you think last 5 minutes, the time it'll take for that bonus to pay off that missing low slot? You're assuming crappy skills here. Do you get a 15 second cycle time on your repper? I dont Plus, the bonus for LARII will mean you are repping more like 1120. Or, a Core-X repper. Wow. You can fit a great tank in the 6 lows. The extra gun makes up for the lack of damage mod. What you have in effect, is Megathron DPS with a VASTLY superior tank, more agility, more CPU, and an extra mid for a web or painter. Its actually a really good ship. Heh, I did say this math hurts my head Ok, so going with your numbers, lets say a cycle is 10 seconds, the repping is 1100HP. Thats about......what, 350 extra you're getting from the ship bonus? The time it'd take 350HP every 10 seconds to burn off that missing 1600mm plate would be 14 cycles, 140 seconds, or 2 minutes and 20 seconds. So you still need to be in a fight for about 2 and a half minutes before you'll see the benefit of the better tank, and I still don't think thats anything to get excited about. No, no, no! You need to count the WHOLE repair cycle, not the difference between the bonus and standard rep amounts. If you are fitting a plate INSTEAD of a repper, you will cover the HP gained by the plate in 5 cycles. Not 14! Actually, no. We're not talking about "should I fit a plate OR a repper". The mega has 1 extra low slot, so it can fit the exat same tank (including the repper) but WITH an extra low slot- which for the sake of argument, I'm calling a 1600mm plate. So essentially all we're calculating is the 37.5% bonus, and whether its worth a missing low slot. If we were calculating the entire repper, it would imply that Mega and Hype have the same number of low slots, and its a choice between a LAR and a plate- which it isn't. -----------------------------------------------
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.26 12:41:00 - [49] Edited by: Butter Dog on 26/10/2006 12:45:37 Originally by: Patch86 Actually, no. We're not talking about "should I fit a plate OR a repper". The mega has 1 extra low slot, so it can fit the exat same tank (including the repper) but WITH an extra low slot- which for the sake of argument, I'm calling a 1600mm plate. So essentially all we're calculating is the 37.5% bonus, and whether its worth a missing low slot. If we were calculating the entire repper, it would imply that Mega and Hype have the same number of low slots, and its a choice between a LAR and a plate- which it isn't. EDIT: Let me put it this way. Mega has 7 low slots, Hype has 6. A Mega might choose this for his setup: 1x LAR 3x Hardeners 2x EANM 1x 1600mm plate The Hype, gets one less slot- so we'll say this is the set up: 1x LAR 3x Hardeners 2x EANM 0x 1600mm plate What it has INSTEAD of that miossing low slot is a 37.5% bonus to its LAR. So what we're talking about is whether this bonus is a good trade off for the missing low slot. Well, then you lose a lot of DPS if you're using all 7 lows for tanking. So the Hyperion will then have much more DPS, and still ultimately a better tank, rather than similar DPS and far superior tank. Though just for reference, you wouldnt fit 3 hardeners plus EANM. 2 LAR II, 2 EANM II, plus a DC is fine. Also, post-Null nerf, plates are a pretty bad idea on a blaster boat where you need to get in range ASAP. A dual rep-based Hyperion with Electron II will be unbeatable versus a blaster mega.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.10.26 12:46:00 - [50] Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: Patch86 Actually, no. We're not talking about "should I fit a plate OR a repper". The mega has 1 extra low slot, so it can fit the exat same tank (including the repper) but WITH an extra low slot- which for the sake of argument, I'm calling a 1600mm plate. So essentially all we're calculating is the 37.5% bonus, and whether its worth a missing low slot. If we were calculating the entire repper, it would imply that Mega and Hype have the same number of low slots, and its a choice between a LAR and a plate- which it isn't. EDIT: Let me put it this way. Mega has 7 low slots, Hype has 6. A Mega might choose this for his setup: 1x LAR 3x Hardeners 2x EANM 1x 1600mm plate The Hype, gets one less slot- so we'll say this is the set up: 1x LAR 3x Hardeners 2x EANM 0x 1600mm plate What it has INSTEAD of that miossing low slot is a 37.5% bonus to its LAR. So what we're talking about is whether this bonus is a good trade off for the missing low slot. Well, then you lose a lot of DPS if you're using all 7 lows for tanking. So the Hyperion will then have much more DPS, and still ultimately a better tank, rather than similar DPS and far superior tank. It doesn't matter what you have in the lows- in any case, the Mega has an extra one, get it? Lets try this then. Mega setup: 1x LAR 3x Hardeners 2x Damage mod 1x 1600mm Hype: 1x LAR 3x Hardeners 2x Damage mod. Same problem, see? -----------------------------------------------

Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.26 12:51:00 - [51] Originally by: Patch86 It doesn't matter what you have in the lows- in any case, the Mega has an extra one, get it? Lets try this then. Mega setup: 1x LAR 3x Hardeners 2x Damage mod 1x 1600mm Hype: 1x LAR 3x Hardeners 2x Damage mod. Same problem, see? Of course it matters what you have in the lows. The Hyperion has an extra gun. You don't need the two damage mods. You can use 1 and get the same DPS as the mega. Actual Electron II PvP setups will be like this: Mega: 2 LAR II, 2 EANM II, 1 DC, 1 Mag Stab Hype: 2 LAR II, 2 EANM II, 1 DC Hype gets same DPS as mega and VASTLY superior tank. If you fit a plate instead of a rep on the mega, you lose the benefit vurses Hype after 5 rep cycles. If you fit it instead of the Mag Stab, you do loads less DPS. In every possible scenario, the Hype comes out on top.
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.26 12:53:00 - [52] Further to what Loka said, if you run the numbers, the Hyperion (using T2 gear) can completely tank the damage from an Ion blaster II Megathron (not including heavy drones) while dishing the same DPS it is tanking... It's going to be a very different ship to a Megathron (where firepower is everything), in fact two Hyperions could enter a slugging match and neither would die until the cap charges ran out. ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.26 12:58:00 - [53] The rep bonus is crap, much better would be a falloff bonus or second dmg bonus. I tried working out a short range fleet setup for the hype, but the mega makes a better short range boat in fleets than the hype as long as the rep bonus is not replaced with something blaster oriented.
Aypse Sanguine Legion Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.26 12:59:00 - [54] To take advantage of the Hype's bonus, I would personally almost always put 2x armor reps on there. Same thing with the brutix or any other ship with a repair bonus. Play to their strengths, total armor repaired, rather than to resistances. When you do this, to compare this to the mega you need to create a hypothetical ship (lets say a Raven): Raven attacks a Mega and in a seperate battle attacks a Hype: Will the mega's extra resistance mod, as you have added in your setup, prevent more damage than the Hype's repair bonus will heal? Chances are, the 37.5% repair bonus will heal more than an extra armor hardener will prevent. The other factor here is cap use. So is the extra HPs that the Hype gets in these hypothetical situation also be cost-effective for the cap it uses to get those extra HPs? I would guess it would but this probably depends on the otherall length of the battle.
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.26 13:02:00 - [55] Originally by: Kunming The rep bonus is crap, much better would be a falloff bonus or second dmg bonus. I tried working out a short range fleet setup for the hype, but the mega makes a better short range boat in fleets than the hype as long as the rep bonus is not replaced with something blaster oriented. the Hype is not a fleet ship, take you mega for that It will however be the king of small gangs and solo roaming
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.26 13:31:00 - [56] Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: Kunming The rep bonus is crap, much better would be a falloff bonus or second dmg bonus. I tried working out a short range fleet setup for the hype, but the mega makes a better short range boat in fleets than the hype as long as the rep bonus is not replaced with something blaster oriented. the Hype is not a fleet ship, take you mega for that It will however be the king of small gangs and solo roaming Why should the ship be limited to be a one trick pony? The rep bonus limits any versatility, maybe I wanna fit a passive shield tank on it, or fit full gank setup with small rep...
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.26 13:43:00 - [57] Originally by: Kunming Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: Kunming The rep bonus is crap, much better would be a falloff bonus or second dmg bonus. I tried working out a short range fleet setup for the hype, but the mega makes a better short range boat in fleets than the hype as long as the rep bonus is not replaced with something blaster oriented. the Hype is not a fleet ship, take you mega for that It will however be the king of small gangs and solo roaming Why should the ship be limited to be a one trick pony? The rep bonus limits any versatility, maybe I wanna fit a passive shield tank on it, or fit full gank setup with small rep... I guess you see specialisation as a bad thing. I don't.
Aypse Sanguine Legion Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.26 13:45:00 - [58] Every bonus limits a ships versalitility. That is the point, we want different ships to be strong in some areas and weak in others. Each ship should have a role that its best in, a role that it is completely horrible in, and then lots of roles that its mediocre in. I don't want every ship to be the same, just with different guns. There are some ships that are not limited by their bonus, but by other factors. Take the ferox for example, most people use missles on it regardless of its hybrid bonus but it still has a limited amount of roles in which its effective due to other factors. So I guess, yes, I do want a bonus that limits its versatility.
Gariuys Evil Strangers Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.26 13:49:00 - [59] Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: Kunming Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: Kunming The rep bonus is crap, much better would be a falloff bonus or second dmg bonus. I tried working out a short range fleet setup for the hype, but the mega makes a better short range boat in fleets than the hype as long as the rep bonus is not replaced with something blaster oriented. the Hype is not a fleet ship, take you mega for that It will however be the king of small gangs and solo roaming Why should the ship be limited to be a one trick pony? The rep bonus limits any versatility, maybe I wanna fit a passive shield tank on it, or fit full gank setup with small rep... I guess you see specialisation as a bad thing. I don't. LAR bonus ( only BS module where this bonus has any use ) is hardly specialisation... it's utter crap... 10 times so on a blasterboat. Whether or not this makes the hyperion a bad boat is another story. But looking at the agility and mass etc... I'm guessing that it is a bad boat. A actually fast battleship for the gallente would have been nice, and much more inline with giving something we don't have. Dampener bonus is equally stupid though, biggest benefit of dampeners is reducing enemies lock range, but when you're only using 1/2 dampeners ( standard blastermids already take 4 slots, 3 if you're being weird or don't need injector ) isn't a huge benefit when you HAVE to be in a lockrange that's shorter then a dampener damps. From the look of things, I'd rather have a megathron with rigs, then a hyperion.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.10.26 13:50:00 - [60] Problem with dual repper setups is that they usee a colossal amount of Cap. Blasters use alot of cap too. And MWDs, of course, gimp your cap to the extreme. I don't want to crunch the numbers right now (maybe after lunch) but can a Hype sustain that kind of Cap very long? What moduels would you need to make it work? -----------------------------------------------

Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.26 14:05:00 - [61] Originally by: Patch86 Problem with dual repper setups is that they usee a colossal amount of Cap. Blasters use alot of cap too. And MWDs, of course, gimp your cap to the extreme. I don't want to crunch the numbers right now (maybe after lunch) but can a Hype sustain that kind of Cap very long? What moduels would you need to make it work? Seriously, its not a problem to run dual rep setups. You have to know when to engage and when to run, and watch your reppers and cap closely, but its fine. Actually, the greatly increased efficiency of the armor repariers on the Hyperion will lead to your cap being used more effectively. Since 1 unit of cap will repair 37.5% more armor than on a mega. Plus the Hyperion has a lot more cap to start with. \o/
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.26 14:08:00 - [62] Originally by: Gariuys From the look of things, I'd rather have a megathron with rigs, then a hyperion. The Hyperion can fit rigs too. Here are the facts for you: 1 more gun, 1 more midslot, more cpu, massive tanking bonus, more agility, bigger cap. Why the HELL would anyone want to use a Megathron as a blasterboat over the Hype is totally beyond me. But hey, please do. The better PvPers amougst us will use the Hype and enjoy blowing up your megas :)
Nebuli Caldari Art of War	Posted - 2006.10.26 14:22:00 - [63] Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: Gariuys From the look of things, I'd rather have a megathron with rigs, then a hyperion. The Hyperion can fit rigs too. Here are the facts for you: 1 more gun, 1 more midslot, more cpu, massive tanking bonus, more agility, bigger cap. Why the HELL would anyone want to use a Megathron as a blasterboat over the Hype is totally beyond me. But hey, please do. The better PvPers amougst us will use the Hype and enjoy blowing up your megas :) Heres the facts for you: Less grid, 1 less overall slot (needs that "extra" slot for a teacking cpu or web), waste of time tanking bonus, very "slightly" more agility, stupidly small drone bay, looks like a but plug. Why the HELL anyone would want to use a Hype as a blasterboat over the megathron is totaly beyond me. But hey, please do. The better pvpers amongst us will use the mage and enjoy blowing up your hypes :) CEO - Art of War
Aypse Sanguine Legion Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.26 14:24:00 - [64] All these numbers are with my skills and are not perfect: LAR (Accom): -33.3 Cap/sec 8x T2 Electrons: -15.8 Cap/sec Scram, Web (Fleeting): -6.8 Cap/sec Total= -55.9 Cap/sec Megathron cap regen: +17.18 Cap/sec Injector: +53.3 Cap/sec (4x 800 charges/ 60seconds) Total= +70.510 Now the Hype's regen is going to be slower than the mega's regen, but also many of the skills that effect the above numbers are at level 4. So those two things will probably combine and the + cap number will probably be a little higher than what I have listed. In the end you have a net cap of 14.61/ second. This should theoretically allow you to run the second large accom about every 27 seconds for 990HPs. 1600mm RT has 3360hps. 3360/990=3.394 cycles of the accom. 3.394 * 27seconds= 91.638 seconds to equal a plate. 91.638 seconds/60= about 1.527 minutes for the Hype's bonus (2 accom's with the 37.5% bonus) to catch up to a megathron with a single plate and a single large accom. I make no guarentee that those numbers are correct, but I think they are.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.10.26 14:28:00 - [65] Edited by: Patch86 on 26/10/2006 14:31:21 Originally by: Aypse All these numbers are with my skills and are not perfect: LAR (Accom): -33.3 Cap/sec 8x T2 Electrons: -15.8 Cap/sec Scram, Web (Fleeting): -6.8 Cap/sec Total= -55.9 Cap/sec Megathron cap regen: +17.18 Cap/sec Injector: +53.3 Cap/sec (4x 800 charges/ 60seconds) Total= +70.510 Now the Hype's regen is going to be slower than the mega's regen, but also many of the skills that effect the above numbers are at level 4. So those two things will probably combine and the + cap number will probably be a little higher than what I have listed. In the end you have a net cap of 14.61/ second. This should theoretically allow you to run the second large accom about every 27 seconds for 990HPs. 1600mm RT has 3360hps. 3360/990=3.394 cycles of the accom. 3.394 * 27seconds= 91.638 seconds to equal a plate. 91.638 seconds/60= about 1.527 minutes for the Hype's bonus (2 accom's with the 37.5% bonus) to catch up to a megathron with a single plate and a single large accom. I make no guarentee that those numbers are correct, but I think they are. You forgot the MWD. Thats 25% less cap to play with, plus the MWDs own cap usage. EDIT: Without taking skills into account, thats an extra 72 cap/sec. -----------------------------------------------
Aypse Sanguine Legion Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.26 14:45:00 - [66] Right, but I have no way to calculate how long the MWD will run. In addition to this, when the MWD is running, the Hype's guns will not be firing. Both BS's will also be busy locking each other so the tank will not be running either (depending on the distance between the two BS's). I can't really calculate the MWD in because there are just too many factors that interact and are unique to each battle. Also now you have the tank and guns starting when the total cap is lower but the regen rate is higher. The numbers are not going to be accurate, just general ballpark. What you can look at for facts is video's. Lots of video's of Mega's running dual LAR setups without destroying their cap, so its going to be possible with the Hype as well. I guess what might be an effective strategy would be to download a whole bunch of them. Count how many cycles they ran both LARs and the total length of each fight. You can then calculate an estimate if they would have benefited from a hype's bonus or from a 1600mm plate. Of course the DPS would be different between the two ships, so it will be just a rough estimate.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.10.26 14:48:00 - [67] Originally by: Aypse Right, but I have no way to calculate how long the MWD will run. In addition to this, when the MWD is running, the Hype's guns will not be firing. Both BS's will also be busy locking each other so the tank will not be running either (depending on the distance between the two BS's). I can't really calculate the MWD in because there are just too many factors that interact and are unique to each battle. Also now you have the tank and guns starting when the total cap is lower but the regen rate is higher. The numbers are not going to be accurate, just general ballpark. What you can look at for facts is video's. Lots of video's of Mega's running dual LAR setups without destroying their cap, so its going to be possible with the Hype as well. I guess what might be an effective strategy would be to download a whole bunch of them. Count how many cycles they ran both LARs and the total length of each fight. You can then calculate an estimate if they would have benefited from a hype's bonus or from a 1600mm plate. Of course the DPS would be different between the two ships, so it will be just a rough estimate. You are quite right. Another thing though- 50% more HP. Lets not forget this nugget- essentially, armour Plates will be getting a 50% boost, while (as far as i know) reppers arn't. So they'll have to run for 50% longer in future battles, to make up that difference. -----------------------------------------------
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.26 15:18:00 - [68] Edited by: Butter Dog on 26/10/2006 15:19:58 Originally by: Nebuli Heres the facts for you: Less grid, 1 less overall slot (needs that "extra" slot for a teacking cpu or web), waste of time tanking bonus, very "slightly" more agility, stupidly small drone bay, looks like a but plug. Why the HELL anyone would want to use a Hype as a blasterboat over the megathron is totaly beyond me. But hey, please do. The better pvpers amongst us will use the mage and enjoy blowing up your hypes :) Have you every actually PvPed in a blasterthron? Your post makes absolutely no sense. This fitting works great: 8 Electron II / Web, Scram, MWD, Injector, Painter / LAR II x 2, EANM II x 2, DC, MFS II Please explain to me how you will beat that setup in a mega, when I tank way better than you, have more HP to start with, dish out the same DPS. I also have more cap, and use less of my cap getting in range, and repping than you do. You tank 1600 per cycle. Hype will tank 2200 per cycle. Even if you changed to a gank setup, I could tank you until your cap is dry. Then you die. So please, explain to me EXACTLY how the mega is a better blaster boat. We're all waiting for your insight.
Loka Gallente adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.26 15:27:00 - [69] Edited by: Loka on 26/10/2006 15:28:35 Still Megathron is nice. But the 2nd Bonus, tracking is mainly usefull for sniping. You are not hitting any BS without a Webber, even with that bonus, so you have to fit one. A target with 30m/s speed, where i can do 0 Transversal Velocity manual to it, will be hit same hard with 25% more tracking on Mega or without. So we end up Megathron using 1 Bonus when fitted with Blasters, while the Hyperion will use 2 shipbonus. The one less lowslot is already compensated by a 8th gun, while you have one more midslot. Pls dont be jerk and just try to argue against. Bring numbers. I provided you with real setups already, where the numbers favorise the hyperion in any discipline as blasterboat. Cap is no issue, because no Mega and no Hyperion is going out without Cap Injectors. Hence you will be dry once you ar eout of 800 boosters. So lets out that on the side. Sure i would love having a res bonus like Amarr on armor, but that dream never will come true. Ah and dont forget the free Medslot will be used to either DO more DMG or the enemy doing LESS. In either way, you will survive much longer _________________________ Noob In Action - [NIA]
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.26 15:57:00 - [70] Butter Dog, I'm calling your bluff. Give me the numbers why you keep claiming the Hyperion has better agility. - What am I listening to?

Nebuli Caldari Art of War	Posted - 2006.10.26 16:36:00 - [71] Edited by: Nebuli on 26/10/2006 16:40:39 Originally by: Butter Dog Edited by: Butter Dog on 26/10/2006 15:19:58 Originally by: Nebuli Heres the facts for you: Less grid, 1 less overall slot (needs that "extra" slot for a teacking cpu or web), waste of time tanking bonus, very "slightly" more agility, stupidly small drone bay, looks like a but plug. Why the HELL anyone would want to use a Hype as a blasterboat over the megathron is totaly beyond me. But hey, please do. The better pvpers amongst us will use the mage and enjoy blowing up your hypes :) Have you every actually PvPed in a blasterthron? Your post makes absolutely no sense. This fitting works great: 8 Electron II / Web, Scram, MWD, Injector, Painter / LAR II x 2, EANM II x 2, DC, MFS II Please explain to me how you will beat that setup in a mega, when I tank way better than you, have more HP to start with, dish out the same DPS. I also have more cap, and use less of my cap getting in range, and repping than you do. You tank 1600 per cycle. Hype will tank 2200 per cycle. Even if you changed to a gank setup, I could tank you until your cap is dry. Then you die. So please, explain to me EXACTLY how the mega is a better blaster boat. We're all waiting for your insight. Only pvpd in blasterthron since 2003..... 7 neutron II mwd, web, scram, med injecter. large repper, 2 1600mm plates, 2 damage mods, DC and EANM II 5 x ogre II, or 5 x heavy ECM drones, all relevent skills maxed. Cant see any way that hype is going to get even close to the destructive power of that. How long are your 8 electrons gonna take to chew through that lot of armour? More dps from the mega by far, tanking is probably comparable due to dual plates, its going to take something like 60 secs of repping to make up a SINGLE plate, let alone 2. Hype is rubbish, it doesnt offer anything, blaster boats are all about high damage, NOT high tank. Little edit, on top of that I'll have neutrons, I can start hitting you from 20+ K away, what range do your crap electrons have? 8 Electrons and a single damage mod, vs 7 neutrons and 2 damage mods? Neutrons please. Take a gang example, that great tank you keap going on about is going to mean absolutely bugger all unless youre called primary, so tell me, in a gang is a mega with neutrons, or hype with ub3r dual rep!!11 going to be better? Know which one I would take in my gang. CEO - Art of War
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:08:00 - [72] Originally by: Nebuli Only pvpd in blasterthron since 2003..... 7 neutron II mwd, web, scram, med injecter. large repper, 2 1600mm plates, 2 damage mods, DC and EANM II 5 x ogre II, or 5 x heavy ECM drones, all relevent skills maxed. Cant see any way that hype is going to get even close to the destructive power of that. My god, if you took this up against a Hyperion you would die. The Hyperion can tank your damage, in fact I think indefinately while its cap charges lasted if he popped your drones. Also bear in mind its base armor HP is over 12,000 with skills. You WOULD deal more DPS than the electron hype in this setup. But you have limited survivability, and the Electron Hype will still be throwing 900 DPS in your direction. You see, you have a very pre-Kali mindset here. Rigs, HP increase, and the Hyperions armor rep bonus makes your gank setup a poor choice... because he can tank twice good as you while, dealing nearly as much DPS, and having higher cap to start with. In short, you will be dead WAY before the Hyperion breaks a sweat.
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:09:00 - [73] Originally by: Ithildin Butter Dog, I'm calling your bluff. Give me the numbers why you keep claiming the Hyperion has better agility. Dont have them they are hidden, but I flown it on the test server and it feels like a vindicator... so what would that be? 20% more agile or something?
Nebuli Caldari Art of War	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:10:00 - [74] Yeah because mega doesnt benefit from HP increase or rigs. CEO - Art of War
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:12:00 - [75] Originally by: Nebuli Yeah because mega doesnt benefit from HP increase or rigs. The Hype has more HP than the mega both before and after the HP changes. Rigs are on top, and as they represent percentage increases will benefit the Hype more than the Mega.
1234fadf	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:16:00 - [76] Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: Nebuli Only pvpd in blasterthron since 2003..... 7 neutron II mwd, web, scram, med injecter. large repper, 2 1600mm plates, 2 damage mods, DC and EANM II 5 x ogre II, or 5 x heavy ECM drones, all relevent skills maxed. Cant see any way that hype is going to get even close to the destructive power of that. My god, if you took this up against a Hyperion you would die. The Hyperion can tank your damage, in fact I think indefinately while its cap charges lasted if he popped your drones. Also bear in mind its base armor HP is over 12,000 with skills. You WOULD deal more DPS than the electron hype in this setup. But you have limited survivability, and the Electron Hype will still be throwing 900 DPS in your direction. You see, you have a very pre-Kali mindset here. Rigs, HP increase, and the Hyperions armor rep bonus makes your gank setup a poor choice... because he can tank twice good as you while, dealing nearly as much DPS, and having higher cap to start with. In short, you will be dead WAY before the Hyperion breaks a sweat. 2 x LAR 2 x ean t2 and an iff dcu will tank 580 dps on the hype with lvl 5 bs, and lvl 4 comp skills, on average reists. Megathron will easily put out 1000+ dps
Nebuli Caldari Art of War	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:20:00 - [77] Base armour over 1200 with max skills, thats with HP increases right? Have 15041 armour on my mega atm without the bonus to plates and base HP. CEO - Art of War
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:22:00 - [78] Originally by: 1234fadf 2 x LAR 2 x ean t2 and an iff dcu will tank 580 dps on the hype with lvl 5 bs, and lvl 4 comp skills, on average reists. Megathron will easily put out 1000+ dps Dunno how you worked that out, what cycle time on the reppers are you using? I get raw repping of approx 800 dps. Kill the megas drones and he is very tankable.
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:25:00 - [79] Originally by: Nebuli Base armour over 1200 with max skills, thats with HP increases right? Have 15041 armour on my mega atm without the bonus to plates and base HP. Look, I am not saying that your dual plated mega will have MORE BASE HP than the Hype. Jesus. Fine. If you don't get it, keep the Mega. Since you are convinced its better, use the 'better' ship. Please do. The rest of us can use a more agile BS, which tanks far better, has more cap, more CPU, and extra gun, an extra mid, and will mess up any mega it meets.
Nebuli Caldari Art of War	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:27:00 - [80] Edited by: Nebuli on 26/10/2006 17:28:04 Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: 1234fadf 2 x LAR 2 x ean t2 and an iff dcu will tank 580 dps on the hype with lvl 5 bs, and lvl 4 comp skills, on average reists. Megathron will easily put out 1000+ dps Dunno how you worked that out, what cycle time on the reppers are you using? I get raw repping of approx 800 dps. Kill the megas drones and he is very tankable. You seem to be consistently comparing hype vs mega on a 1 on 1 basis, thats all good and well hypotheticaly, but how often is this likely to occur in the game? When forming a gang offer me a blasterthron with 1200-1500 dps, and pretty good surviverability, and offer me a hype with omg ub3r tanking I'm going to pick the mega EVERYTIME. So the hype will be a better solo blaster ship? w00t? little edit as I just read your reply. Thtas the thing, you dont have an extra mid, whats got to go in it to make your blasters actualy hit? oh yes a tracking cpu, or a second web. CEO - Art of War

1234fadf	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:28:00 - [81] LAR 2 = 1100 rep per cycle, cycle time = 11.25 that = 97.7 hp/s which x2 is 195.5 hp/s now resists with 2 ean + dc are = 79.31 53.45 66.38 66.38 which is an average of 66.38 so, 33.62% dps gets thru; 195.5 / .3362 = 581.49 ;)
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:28:00 - [82] Edited by: Butter Dog on 26/10/2006 17:28:39 Originally by: Nebuli Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: 1234fadf 2 x LAR 2 x ean t2 and an iff dcu will tank 580 dps on the hype with lvl 5 bs, and lvl 4 comp skills, on average reists. Megathron will easily put out 1000+ dps Dunno how you worked that out, what cycle time on the reppers are you using? I get raw repping of approx 800 dps. Kill the megas drones and he is very tankable. You seem to be consistently comparing hype vs mega on a 1 on 1 basis, thats all good and well hypotheticaly, but how often is this likely to occur in the game? When forming a gang offer me a blasterthron with 1200-1500 dps, and pretty good surviverability, and offer me a hype with omg ub3r tanking I'm going to pick the mega EVERYTIME. So the hype will be a better solo blaster ship? w00t? wtb: mega which does 1500 dps After the void nerf, you will be lucky to get 1100. And you will be meeting some tanks which don't mind that kind of DPS. The game is changing. Adapt or die.
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:29:00 - [83] Originally by: 1234fadf LAR 2 = 1100 rep per cycle, cycle time = 11.25 that = 97.7 hp/s which x2 is 195.5 hp/s now resists with 2 ean + dc are = 79.31 53.45 66.38 66.38 which is an average of 66.38 so, 33.62% dps gets thru; 195.5 / .3362 = 581.49 ;) One word: rigs Kali changes everything, tbh
Nebuli Caldari Art of War	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:30:00 - [84] Originally by: Butter Dog Edited by: Butter Dog on 26/10/2006 17:28:39 Originally by: Nebuli Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: 1234fadf 2 x LAR 2 x ean t2 and an iff dcu will tank 580 dps on the hype with lvl 5 bs, and lvl 4 comp skills, on average reists. Megathron will easily put out 1000+ dps Dunno how you worked that out, what cycle time on the reppers are you using? I get raw repping of approx 800 dps. Kill the megas drones and he is very tankable. You seem to be consistently comparing hype vs mega on a 1 on 1 basis, thats all good and well hypotheticaly, but how often is this likely to occur in the game? When forming a gang offer me a blasterthron with 1200-1500 dps, and pretty good surviverability, and offer me a hype with omg ub3r tanking I'm going to pick the mega EVERYTIME. So the hype will be a better solo blaster ship? w00t? wtb: mega which does 1500 dps After the void nerf, you will be lucky to get 1100. And you will be meeting some tanks which don't mind that kind of DPS. The game is changing. Adapt or die. And that doesnt effect the hypes dps? I'll adapt fine thanks, have done since 2003 dont see why I suddenly wont. CEO - Art of War
Nebuli Caldari Art of War	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:31:00 - [85] You cant use rigs as a reason why hype > mega, rigs effect both ships. CEO - Art of War
1234fadf	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:32:00 - [86] Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: 1234fadf LAR 2 = 1100 rep per cycle, cycle time = 11.25 that = 97.7 hp/s which x2 is 195.5 hp/s now resists with 2 ean + dc are = 79.31 53.45 66.38 66.38 which is an average of 66.38 so, 33.62% dps gets thru; 195.5 / .3362 = 581.49 ;) One word: rigs Kali changes everything, tbh Mega can also fit rigs. Point?
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:32:00 - [87] Originally by: Nebuli You cant use rigs as a reason why hype > mega, rigs effect both ships. rigs are defensively focused, so you can the glory days of the neutron gank mega are over
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:34:00 - [88] Originally by: 1234fadf Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: 1234fadf LAR 2 = 1100 rep per cycle, cycle time = 11.25 that = 97.7 hp/s which x2 is 195.5 hp/s now resists with 2 ean + dc are = 79.31 53.45 66.38 66.38 which is an average of 66.38 so, 33.62% dps gets thru; 195.5 / .3362 = 581.49 ;) One word: rigs Kali changes everything, tbh Mega can also fit rigs. Point? Point is that rigs are defensively focused. The Hyperion has a massive defensive bonus and much more base HP than the mega so is better placed to exploit them. doesnt take a genius to work it out. Using the approriate rigs, implants, faction reppers and faction hardners, the hyperion will be able to tank an astonishing 2,000 DPS
Nebuli Caldari Art of War	Posted - 2006.10.26 18:28:00 - [89] Rigs arent just defensively focused, you fit a defensive one on your hype, I'll fit a hybrid one on my mega, yes it increases grid fittings of hybrids, whats this megas got more grid so can still fit neutrons. So now you tank more, and I do more damage, back to square one? CEO - Art of War
El Yatta Caldari Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:02:00 - [90] Butter Dog, you're wrong, and it hurts, because I really do WANT you to be right. It should be pwnage at blasters, it really should, but frankly it isnt. Your numbers are woefully inconsistant - e.g. saying that the hype could tank 800 dps (v. doubtful but go with it) and the mega will "only be able to deal 1100 dps post kali" (t2 ammo not finished yet) but yet some how the hype can tank the mega, despite this large disparity. When someone points this out you go "rigs, rigs, boosters, rigs, fit it with faction!!" - basically anything to unbalance the playing field to make it look like the hype pwns. It doesn;t. Look at it this way: The hype was proposed as a faster ship able to get into blaster range QUICKER than the megathron, and do the dirty once it was there. It was to be blaster focussed, i.e. short locking range, 8 turrets. This is a gank-style ship, because it gets in and does a lot of turret damage fast. It suits the 8 neutrons 1 LAR megathron setup so popular atm. A rep bonus isn't concordant with that, because the fight should be over before a rep is better than a plate. ---\|\|---

Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:08:00 - [91] Well, I'm not complaining. The numbers still don't look good to me, and however I try and work it out it looks like the Hype has no huge advantages- slightly better tank, slightly worse DPS. BUT, I'll certainly be happy if I'm wrong- I fly Gallente, and I WANT a good new BS. I just can't see it myself atm. Still, I'll reserve final judgement until its been tested the only way it really can- been released onto TQ and put into action. -----------------------------------------------
Gariuys Evil Strangers Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:12:00 - [92] Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: 1234fadf Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: 1234fadf LAR 2 = 1100 rep per cycle, cycle time = 11.25 that = 97.7 hp/s which x2 is 195.5 hp/s now resists with 2 ean + dc are = 79.31 53.45 66.38 66.38 which is an average of 66.38 so, 33.62% dps gets thru; 195.5 / .3362 = 581.49 ;) One word: rigs Kali changes everything, tbh Mega can also fit rigs. Point? Point is that rigs are defensively focused. The Hyperion has a massive defensive bonus and much more base HP than the mega so is better placed to exploit them. doesnt take a genius to work it out. Using the approriate rigs, implants, faction reppers and faction hardners, the hyperion will be able to tank an astonishing 2,000 DPS Massive defensive bonus? Are you bonkers? a + to rep amount isn't a massive bonus, and if you start using faction stuff it goes out of wack completely. And 2000dps yeah for the first 30secs give or take a little. Blasterboats don't survive based on tanking, maybe that'll change with the hp boost to some degree. Tanking isn't the defining factor of a blasterboat, pure dps, and the ability to get rid of your target before you need real tanking is the strenght of the blaster. A bonus to rep amount isn't something that's nice, needed, or usefull on a blasterboat. And it sure as hell isn't to the liking of the people that enjoy blasters.
Torment Caldari Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:15:00 - [93] Butter Dog i also wish your were right but ive been flying blaster's for longer than Nebuli has...Trust me when i say this that the setup he posted Will beat the setup of your Hype. How do i know this?,Well ive just spent the last 3 hrs on test server running the numbers with both ships. I would go even as far to say that the Hyperion is a awfull ship that unless gets looked at will not be one i will be flying.
Gariuys Evil Strangers Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:15:00 - [94] Edited by: Gariuys on 26/10/2006 19:15:56 Originally by: Patch86 Well, I'm not complaining. The numbers still don't look good to me, and however I try and work it out it looks like the Hype has no huge advantages- slightly better tank, slightly worse DPS. BUT, I'll certainly be happy if I'm wrong- I fly Gallente, and I WANT a good new BS. I just can't see it myself atm. Still, I'll reserve final judgement until its been tested the only way it really can- been released onto TQ and put into action. What I do not understand, and never will is how anyone can say that a ship that has less dps, and better tanking is a better blasterboat. It's completely and totally beyond me. A blasterboat fits a tank to survive long enough to kill, but sacrifices everything else to getting in range, and doing the sickest possible damage to get rid of that target before tanking becomes a issue. And me personally, I don't want a boat that "tanks" I'm a blasterpilot and I wanna annihilate stuff. If I wanted to tank I'd fly a Raven or a Apoc or whatever.
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:16:00 - [95] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 26/10/2006 19:17:47 Edited my previous post, essentially looking at kills times vs. a standard Ion BLaster II Megathron it's 2.25 : 1 in favour of the Hyperion. i.e. the Hyperion kills the Megathron twice over in the same time it takes the Megathron to kill the Hyperion Edit: the Neutron II setup posted on the previous page deals only 6% more DPs than the Ion II setup btw... ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Gariuys Evil Strangers Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:19:00 - [96] Edited by: Gariuys on 26/10/2006 19:20:37 Originally by: Gabriel Karade Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 26/10/2006 19:17:47 Edited my previous post, essentially looking at kills times vs. a standard Ion BLaster II Megathron it's 2.25 : 1 in favour of the Hyperion. i.e. the Hyperion kills the Megathron twice over in the same time it takes the Megathron to kill the Hyperion Edit: the Neutron II setup posted on the previous page deals only 6% more DPs than the Ion II setup btw... And what's your idea of a standard Ion Blaster II mega setup? And yes, everone that flies blasterthrons knows that neutrons don't outdo ions by much. But thx for sharing anyway. P.S. your hyperion setup sucks. And you're forgetting shields and hull.
Nebuli Caldari Art of War	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:22:00 - [97] Edited by: Nebuli on 26/10/2006 19:25:56 Originally by: Gabriel Karade Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 26/10/2006 19:17:47 Edited my previous post, essentially looking at kills times vs. a standard Ion BLaster II Megathron it's 2.25 : 1 in favour of the Hyperion. i.e. the Hyperion kills the Megathron twice over in the same time it takes the Megathron to kill the Hyperion Edit: the Neutron II setup posted on the previous page deals only 6% more DPs than the Ion II setup btw... Maybe because you used IONs instead of Neutrons with your 1 rep and plate set up on the mega? see my previous post for a set up. Also did you take drones into consideration? Oh and you edited your post saying neutrons dont do much more damage, while this is correct they do DO more damage, and can also start doing that damage ALOT earlier than your electrons can. Also lets not forget the tracking on the mega > the tracking on the Hype, that alone will count for quite a few hits the Hype will miss the mega wont while getting into the correct ranges, in fact mega could start shooting at 20 ish K and score some hits, and wait for the hype to come to it, all the time hammering away. Hype on the other hand will have a tiny range, and have to wait untill its nigh on stationary before it can start doing any damage. CEO - Art of War
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:25:00 - [98] Check page 3 for details. ---------- - Office Linebacker -
LaCoHa Caldari Deep Space Navy Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:29:00 - [99] Maybe already said (its a long thread), but... Why not just switch the 7.5% bonus to repper amount to repper duration. That way its basically doing the same thing, just doing it faster. this would help with the repper pvp worth vs. 1600mm plate pvp worth argument. meh. "I just slaughtered 28 people in that game of Battlefield 2 and never died. Man my e-p33n feels huge."
Gariuys Evil Strangers Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:34:00 - [100] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Check page 3 for details. STill not seeing the figures for shield and hull. ( oh and hyperions lack of a tracking bonus is quite easily made up for by using a target painter, which helps your drones as well )

Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:43:00 - [101] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 26/10/2006 19:44:13 No disrespect intended Nebulai, but your setup folds faster than the Ion II setup, and hereÆs why: 1x LAR II 800 HpÆs repaired every 11.25 sec = 71.1 HP/sec 1x EANM 1x DCU (internal FFA) 2x 1600mm RT plates Resistances of: 72/42/58/58 Armor HPÆs (post changes) of : ((5313x1.5) + (2x3360x1.5))= 18050 DPS output = (837 x 1.06) + 317 (5 Ogre IIÆs) = 1205 dps Kill times: Your Megathron vs. Hyperion: 1205 Dps vs. 77% = 277 û (195.5) = 82 Dps bleedthrough vs. 12,000 armour = 12,000/82 = 146 sec Hyperion vs. Your Megathron: 862 dps vs. 58% = 362 û (71) = 291 Dps bleedthrough vs. 18,050 armour = 62 sec 2.35 : 1 advantage to the Hyperion compared to 2.25 : 1 vs Ion II setup ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:46:00 - [102] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 26/10/2006 19:48:35 Originally by: Gariuys Originally by: Gabriel Karade Check page 3 for details. STill not seeing the figures for shield and hull. ( oh and hyperions lack of a tracking bonus is quite easily made up for by using a target painter, which helps your drones as well ) Look at the disparity in the kill times and try telling me with a straight face that 31 seconds chewing through (hardened) hull is going to change the outcome... The Hyperion is going to be awesome, but I'll still be flying my Megathron too, why? If you need to kill something fast Megathron > Hyperion always If you want to do it in style Megathron > Hyperion always The Hyperion is a better small gang ship though, and for combat where time isn't critical. ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:49:00 - [103] Originally by: LaCoHa Maybe already said (its a long thread), but... Why not just switch the 7.5% bonus to repper amount to repper duration. That way its basically doing the same thing, just doing it faster. this would help with the repper pvp worth vs. 1600mm plate pvp worth argument. meh. That could work. Personally, I'd preffer a straight HP bonus. If it takes longer to kill, you have instant gratification for the mad dash to optimal range. The problem with the Repper bonus as it stands is that it takes time to pay off, and Blaster boats arn't meant to take time at anything. They're meant to kill fast, or be killed fast. -----------------------------------------------
OzaLoni Gallente Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:54:00 - [104] Well I was playing about on the test server before the kali patch hit (not its almost impossible to get on).. Neutron Mega with 7 T2 Neuts, mwd, scam, web 3 plates, 3 MFS T2, 1 DCU I was getting its of 600+ from over 30K, and from within 20K-26K regular hits. With a nice 14+K web, just how often is that hyp gonna hit ? TBH I need to play with both ships to see, but tbh why not go with a similar fit that the mega uses, fittings allowing.. I would offer 1 up, but as I said.. getting on the test server is a little difficult atm
LaCoHa Caldari Deep Space Navy Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:01:00 - [105] Yeah, as it is (and especially with the coming hp changes) plates are king. so imo repper bonus is really only good for PVE. "I just slaughtered 28 people in that game of Battlefield 2 and never died. Man my e-p33n feels huge."
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:06:00 - [106] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 26/10/2006 20:06:44 I've run all the numbers, but still I think everyone just needs to try the thing (and not try fitting it as a Megathron - play to its strength) extensively first (if you can get on Sisi ) If yelling at Tux becomes necessary there is plenty of time for that yet ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Nebuli Caldari Art of War	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:08:00 - [107] Originally by: OzaLoni Well I was playing about on the test server before the kali patch hit (not its almost impossible to get on).. Neutron Mega with 7 T2 Neuts, mwd, scam, web 3 plates, 3 MFS T2, 1 DCU I was getting its of 600+ from over 30K, and from within 20K-26K regular hits. With a nice 14+K web, just how often is that hyp gonna hit ? TBH I need to play with both ships to see, but tbh why not go with a similar fit that the mega uses, fittings allowing.. I would offer 1 up, but as I said.. getting on the test server is a little difficult atm Yeah this is something everyone seems to keap missing with their maths. Start the fight in the Hypes optimal for its electrons and "maybe" it can 1 on 1 a blasterthron, but start at something like 20 or 30k and the mega doesnt even have to move to start hitting, where as the hypes gonna have to mwd a long way before it gets in range to hit with its crap ranged electrons. Now add in the mega mwd'ing the oppasite direction, and the use of a web once within 10k and the hypes in real trouble, its had to use loads of its cap to try and get in range so that dual reps not much use, all the time being consistently hit by the mega with neutrons and drones. But forgetting 1 on 1 situations, which arent that common anyway, gang wise the fact mega can now hit to 20k reliably with neutrons means alot of the time it doesnt even have to move to start doing damage. The Hype is going to be similar to the old blasterthron before neutrons were that viable, meaning by the time it even get in range to shoot its target the chances are its already dead and a new target has been called, so its going to spend all its time mwd'ing all over the place trying to get in range and failing. CEO - Art of War
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:09:00 - [108] I honestly think the whole concept of ganking ships ASAP with neutrons and no tank is going to die with Kali. You have changes to T2 ammo = less DPS, a huge hitpoints increase, defensive bonuses on all the new battleships, rigs... I just think all this talk of lightly tanked Neutron Megas is going to sound very 'pre-Kali' soon. We'll see if I'm wrong or not, but the writing is on the wall.
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:10:00 - [109] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 26/10/2006 20:12:25 If you start in the Hyperions optimal it isn't 'maybe' its so one-sided it isnt funny... But like I said, everyone needs to try the thing extensively first Edit: and of course as always Pilot tactics > all ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Nebuli Caldari Art of War	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:15:00 - [110] Originally by: Butter Dog I honestly think the whole concept of ganking ships ASAP with neutrons and no tank is going to die with Kali. You have changes to T2 ammo = less DPS, a huge hitpoints increase, defensive bonuses on all the new battleships, rigs... I just think all this talk of lightly tanked Neutron Megas is going to sound very 'pre-Kali' soon. We'll see if I'm wrong or not, but the writing is on the wall. Thing is, plate > rep in kali right? So how is mega with dual plates and a single rep going to be "lightly" tanked vs Hypes dual rep and no plate? CEO - Art of War

Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:21:00 - [111] Originally by: Nebuli Originally by: Butter Dog I honestly think the whole concept of ganking ships ASAP with neutrons and no tank is going to die with Kali. You have changes to T2 ammo = less DPS, a huge hitpoints increase, defensive bonuses on all the new battleships, rigs... I just think all this talk of lightly tanked Neutron Megas is going to sound very 'pre-Kali' soon. We'll see if I'm wrong or not, but the writing is on the wall. Thing is, plate > rep in kali right? So how is mega with dual plates and a single rep going to be "lightly" tanked vs Hypes dual rep and no plate? Because the way things are going, fights will last a lot longer than 50 seconds (the approx time it takes for the reppers to equal the plate HP's)... I imagine several minutes will not be at all uncommon. rigs will mean increased resistances/more effective repping, there is the base HP boost, and the T2 ammo nerf... so all in all its the lengths of fights which will determine the end of the old neutron gankers
LWMaverick Quam Singulari Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:35:00 - [112] When i get the chance, i will gladly take a mega up against your hype's.. Im pretty confident that i will prove that the(my) mega wont loose, or at least make the fight very intresting. Remember that the mega hits alot better, and higher tracking = higher damage shots. /Mav <3
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:49:00 - [113] Originally by: LaCoHa Maybe already said (its a long thread), but... Why not just switch the 7.5% bonus to repper amount to repper duration. That way its basically doing the same thing, just doing it faster. this would help with the repper pvp worth vs. 1600mm plate pvp worth argument. meh. Nope. Those 1600mm Tungsten arguments are focused around a) time to make up for the armour (a repair duration bonus wouldn't change anything), b) fitting on repairer compared to a plate (repair duration still rely on the repairer), and c) capacitor requirements on the repairer (repair duration would significantly worsen the capacitor needs!) - What am I listening to?
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:51:00 - [114] Originally by: Butter Dog Because the way things are going, fights will last a lot longer than 50 seconds (the approx time it takes for the reppers to equal the plate HP's)... I imagine several minutes will not be at all uncommon. ... in one versus one situations. Which are silly and uncommon. As soon as there's two or more people involved on one side, ships go down a lot faster than a minute. - What am I listening to?
Nebuli Caldari Art of War	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:56:00 - [115] Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Butter Dog Because the way things are going, fights will last a lot longer than 50 seconds (the approx time it takes for the reppers to equal the plate HP's)... I imagine several minutes will not be at all uncommon. ... in one versus one situations. Which are silly and uncommon. As soon as there's two or more people involved on one side, ships go down a lot faster than a minute. Exactly my point. CEO - Art of War
Minnow maught Art of War	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:09:00 - [116] Anyone know how long the hyperion cap will last ? Assume Mwd is fitted and lets say you are lucky and only used 25% to MWD to target (start at 75% of MWD modified cap). Running 8 Blasters, target painter, web, scram, hardners (if applicable), dual armour rep .... hmmm I think boosters might not actually keep up especially if you miss time the injection / rep cycles. be interesting to know if 1 it can keep up and 2 at what timing does it run out (if applicable) e.g. does the cap die before the Mega in this hypothetical battle?
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:17:00 - [117] Originally by: Nebuli Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Butter Dog Because the way things are going, fights will last a lot longer than 50 seconds (the approx time it takes for the reppers to equal the plate HP's)... I imagine several minutes will not be at all uncommon. ... in one versus one situations. Which are silly and uncommon. As soon as there's two or more people involved on one side, ships go down a lot faster than a minute. Exactly my point. Yeah I agree, the rep bonus is wasted in anything more than a small roaming gang.
Grinkur	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:31:00 - [118] Edited by: Grinkur on 26/10/2006 21:35:19 On the Mega vs Hype thing, i did some numbers and with the right setup the Hype allways wins: a) Mega uses the above listed setup. Deals approximately 1219 DPS, repairs 64 dps has resists to Ki and Te of 56,13% with maxed skills b) Hype with Ion Blasters II, Hammerhead II, MFS II, One Large Armor repper II, Ki hardener, Th hardener, EANM II and Dmg control. Deals approximately 968 dps, repairs 98 dps and has resists to ki and Th of 81,13% (Same resists to other damages than Mega). In this case the Mega has to tank 425 dps after resists but can only repair 64. The Hype has to tank 230 dps after resists and repairs 98, so Megathron receives 361 dps and Hype 132. Ok, to make it short, after considering shield resists, the plates on the Mega with the above mentioned resists (12600hp) and hull resists the results are: Megathron: Shield goes down in 6 sec Armor goes down in 63 sec Structure goes down in 33 sec Total (rounded) 101 sec Hype Shield goes down in 4 sec Armor goes down in 91 sec Structure goes down in 31 sec Total (Rounded) 126 sec So in that case and with that particular fitting the Megathron dies first. Yo have to also consider that DMG numbers in the Hype are using Hammerheads and not Ogres, so the Hype has spares and the Mega does not. Did same numbers without drones (asuming that the pilots kill the drones first) and Mega dies in 176 seconds and Hype in 301, so Hype wins again. If you use a dual repper - electron blaster setup in the Hype numbers are much closer (around 130 sec for both ships). Please, do not flame, it is just an example to show that the Hype is not as bad as many people think. Ah, by the way, dmg numbers are from Naughty Boy's spreadsheet.
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:40:00 - [119] Originally by: Nebuli Rigs arent just defensively focused, you fit a defensive one on your hype, I'll fit a hybrid one on my mega, yes it increases grid fittings of hybrids, whats this megas got more grid so can still fit neutrons. This is going to be a good reason to get AWU5. BTW, I expect AC rigs to be stupidly overpowered... --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Grinkur	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:46:00 - [120] Edited by: Grinkur on 26/10/2006 21:46:50 edited. No point in discussing this further.

Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:54:00 - [121] So in conclusion we have...................... The Hyperion will win in a 1v1 against a Mega. In most all other situations, the Mega is better than the Hyperion, even though it costs less. They Hyperion provides nothing really new to the Gallente BS lineup. It's really just a Megathron with slight cosmetic differences, which only help it in 1v1's and hurt it in everything else. ......that sum it up pretty well?
Nebuli Caldari Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:58:00 - [122] Originally by: Kaell Meynn So in conclusion we have...................... The Hyperion will win in a 1v1 against a Mega. In most all other situations, the Mega is better than the Hyperion, even though it costs less. They Hyperion provides nothing really new to the Gallente BS lineup. It's really just a Megathron with slight cosmetic differences, which only help it in 1v1's and hurt it in everything else. ......that sum it up pretty well? Pretty much, but still not totaly convinced it will beat the mega 1 on 1, think the fight can easily go both ways tbh. If starting in the hypes optimal (pretty unlikely) then it most likely will, start in any other range and I think mega has the advantage, mwd the oppasite direction, web at 10k, hell even use of web drones and the chances are the megas going to pwn the hype with its better range and tracking. CEO - Art of War
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:59:00 - [123] Give the Hype +5% damage per level and +5% ROF per level and toss the non bonus rep increase. Unless it's something like +20% rep bonus per level any rep bonus is going to be useless with respect to current PVP requirements. Because I said so...
Grinkur	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:01:00 - [124] The hype has an extra mid. You can fit a tracking disruptor for a nice 54% penalty on tracking and range.
Grinkur	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:03:00 - [125] Originally by: murder one Give the Hype +5% damage per level and +5% ROF per level and toss the non bonus rep increase. Unless it's something like +20% rep bonus per level any rep bonus is going to be useless with respect to current PVP requirements. Or you can change the grid, targeting range, swap the repper bonus for resists and you have a great sniper.
Zhull	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:09:00 - [126] Edited by: Zhull on 26/10/2006 22:10:06 Originally by: Kaell Meynn So in conclusion we have...................... The Hyperion will win in a 1v1 against a Mega. In most all other situations, the Mega is better than the Hyperion, even though it costs less. They Hyperion provides nothing really new to the Gallente BS lineup. It's really just a Megathron with slight cosmetic differences, which only help it in 1v1's and hurt it in everything else. ......that sum it up pretty well? Probably will also win against Amarr ships and will die horribly to NOS boats and Autocannons in that setup but hey, what do you expect if you want the i-win button train Caldari. It is good in 1 vs 1 because it is a blaster boat (you know, up close and personal).
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:10:00 - [127] Originally by: Grinkur Originally by: murder one Give the Hype +5% damage per level and +5% ROF per level and toss the non bonus rep increase. Unless it's something like +20% rep bonus per level any rep bonus is going to be useless with respect to current PVP requirements. Or you can change the grid, targeting range, swap the repper bonus for resists and you have a great sniper. Don't we have one in the Mega already? Oh right. What is the point of the Hype again? I forget... Because I said so...
Grinkur	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:11:00 - [128] Edited by: Grinkur on 26/10/2006 22:11:10 I guess you are right, but please, make it anything but a dampener Battleship.
OzaLoni Gallente Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:11:00 - [129] well Finally got on the test server and been giving it a work out, atm i'm busy on in eve so can't do full 1v1's so the rats go it.. Tracking on a hyp with neuts suck donkey balls. But the dmg is insane. Thanks nebuli.. keeping range is v important, and is usually a trick of tempest pilots.. Since I've never had a vindi, can peeps who have compare its agility etc? I consider that to be a the closest to a real blasterthron ship.
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:14:00 - [130] it felt pretty much like a vindicator to me, yeah oh... I'm not feeling so good about the Hype now... I still think its a nice ship, but its just SO similar to the mega whats the point?

Grinkur	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:16:00 - [131] Edited by: Grinkur on 26/10/2006 22:16:23 Originally by: Butter Dog it felt pretty much like a vindicator to me, yeah oh... I'm not feeling so good about the Hype now... I still think its a nice ship, but its just SO similar to the mega whats the point? I totally agree with you. You pay like 50% more for a ship that more or less does the same things at close range and cant be used to snipe.
Nebuli Caldari Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:19:00 - [132] Please dont forget it looks ALOT worse than a mega as well CEO - Art of War
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:21:00 - [133] Edited by: Butter Dog on 26/10/2006 22:22:14 Actually, the Hype IS a vindicator, pretty much more cap, 5th mid, agility.... question is, what could we suggest to differentiate it? lets not slag it off, lets think constructively puts thinking cap on If the agility was increased by a further 25% to emphasise its blaster role, and the PG was increased by 2000, this would make it sufficiently better than the mega to be worthwhile
OzaLoni Gallente Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:26:00 - [134] Originally by: Butter Dog Edited by: Butter Dog on 26/10/2006 22:22:14 Actually, the Hype IS a vindicator, pretty much more cap, 5th mid, agility.... question is, what could we suggest to differentiate it? lets not slag it off, lets think constructively puts thinking cap on If the agility was increased by a further 25% to emphasise its blaster role, and the PG was increased by 2000, this would make it sufficiently better than the mega to be worthwhile Get those changes implemented and I'll be flying vindi's at the price hyperions are meant to go for!
Loka Gallente adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.27 07:40:00 - [135] Edited by: Loka on 27/10/2006 07:40:52 Originally by: Nebuli Still doesnt take into account the range benefits of neutrons over electrons or even ions, starting range makes a big difference here. Agree. Neutrons have awsome optimal with NULL. BUT no one will use NULL against a BS. NULL is used for bigger gangs, where i dont want to MWD towards my targets or against smaller targets. And you wont switch the ammo during fight to void. The 10 sec, plus the manual change of ammo you will loose, you will take dmg by a VOID fitted Hyperion. Yes currently iam using Neutrons, exactly because of this. It is an advantage i agree, but just to be more versatile. AND THE HYPERION can be fitted with SAME setup like the Megathron, but has more -> DPS <- then the Megathron. Originally by: Nebuli Also doesnt take into account the tracking differences between both ships. As said allready. Yes the Tracking makes a difference with Rails. Yes the Tracking makes a difference, when using NULL L and you can just hit cruisers, IF you use a Neutron setup. On any other SETUP the Tracking gives you almost no benefit, because you have to WEB your target. But this disadvantage can be reduced by using a Target Painter II in MED Slots, which not only helps your ship like the bonus, but the whole gang. 3 Hyperions vs 3 Megathrons for example, make your math. Originally by: Nebuli As said above in a 1 on 1 the Hype "might" in ideal situations beat the mega, but thats a silly way to compare them, stick them both in a gang and the mega is far suprior at the role of blaster boat. Again just your personal impression. I can give you numbers to prove otherside. The Hyperion CAN fit same as Mega and has 1 more MEDSLOT, hence better for groups, because you can help the group by providing EW in any kind. 1vs1 it will have with same setup MORE DPS, more HP and better Tanking. Regardless which setup you will choose. The ship itself is supirior to the Megathron in any ways when fitted with blasters. 25m¦ wont give the Megathron the edge over the Hyperion. Most time iam not even using T2 Heavys. My DPS already 1067 without them, no need having 200 more. But having 5 ECM drones to been able to targetjam a 2nd target, when fighting 1vs2 priceless. Or fit 3 Heavy Webdrones that no target can escape you, also priceless. Med T2 Drones priceless against nasty tacklers, a livesafer. Originally by: Kaell Meynn The Hyperion will win in a 1v1 against a Mega. Depends on the pilots. But the Hyperion has better stats to start with. Originally by: Kaell Meynn In most all other situations, the Mega is better than the Hyperion, even though it costs less. Megathron better with Rails, Hyperion better with Blasters. Just that simple. Originally by: Kaell Meynn They Hyperion provides nothing really new to the Gallente BS lineup. It's really just a Megathron with slight cosmetic differences, which only help it in 1v1's and hurt it in everything else. Agree. The Hyperion is a specializated Blasterthron. And for the pricething. Its a Tech 1 ship, hence the platinum insurance will cover 100% of shipcost, while probably costing 10 or 15 mil more in insurance. So you effectivly loose 15mil more than a Megathronpilots. Ppl are loosing HAC¦s, faction BS, Command Ships and Capitals nowadays. Doubt this 15mil will hurt that much. My clone already cost more than that. _________________________ Noob In Action - [NIA]
Akiman	Posted - 2006.10.27 10:28:00 - [136] ultimate close combat hyperion is 8\4\8 and ccp doesnt want it therefore ultimate close combat is not possible.6 lows is bad if she would be 7 we could put a inertia stabilizer for increased agility\topspeed. If she would be 8 an inertia and you name it... but fifth med slot only works for ewar...dampener,tracking distrupter etc... the point is already excellent blastership layout remains and that layout is megathron but u cant fit 8th turret... of course hyperion beats mega shes a tier III ship more hitpoints etc. she should be...youll be giving 60 80 millions more anyway... and even hype got more cap she got slowest cap recharge when u fit mwd cap will be crappy with crappy recharge rate and we dont have 7th slot to fit cap relay... being able to beat megathron doesnt mean its a good blaster ship.
Torment Caldari Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.10.27 16:22:00 - [137] The hyperion NEEDS for it to work: 8/4/8 slot layout 2k more powergrid Bonus changed to 5% damage 5% rof per lvl(or at worst 5% armour hp per lvl) I wish people would understand that the loss of the low slot and tracking bonus REALLY hurts the hyperion as a blasterboat,so it needs someting special to make up for it.The 5% bonus to repping is not that answer. But as i say let these changes go live and then we can moan at Tux for the next 6 months once everybody wakes up and realizes its just not very good
rgreat Gallente OEG	Posted - 2006.10.27 16:55:00 - [138] Edited by: rgreat on 27/10/2006 16:59:46 After tests: Hyperion go better as sniper and not as blaster ship currently. Rep bonus useless in both configs. Megathron is better with blasters compared to hyperion, but hyperion is better with rails. Also it better to have lots of PG and low slots for close combat, while preferably to have mix of med/low slots and alot of CPU for long range. P.S. Seems to me, that best blaster ship will be Rokh.
Aypse Sanguine Legion Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.27 17:00:00 - [139] How could the Hype possibly be better with rails? Tracking bonus for megathron benefits rails even more than blasters, especially at rail-range. You can make up for the 1 less turret with a MFS T2 in the extra low. Shorter locking range. Not even Hype supporters like me think that the Hype can be better with rails than the mega is.
rgreat Gallente OEG	Posted - 2006.10.27 17:29:00 - [140] Edited by: rgreat on 27/10/2006 17:29:39 Originally by: Aypse How could the Hype possibly be better with rails? You can fit 2+ tracking comps on Hyperion with Tracking Enchancers. And you can fit 4+ damage mods. And you have 8x425 turrets with 25% bonus. Still no clue?

Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.27 17:31:00 - [141] Originally by: Aypse How could the Hype possibly be better with rails? Tracking bonus for megathron benefits rails even more than blasters, especially at rail-range. You can make up for the 1 less turret with a MFS T2 in the extra low. Shorter locking range. Not even Hype supporters like me think that the Hype can be better with rails than the mega is. Tracking effects blasters more than rails, as transversal becomes less of a problem the further away you are from a moving target.
rgreat Gallente OEG	Posted - 2006.10.27 17:37:00 - [142] And btw, megathron have 5 large drones compared to hyperion 4... BlasteRion? Nah, BlasterThron and HyperRail FTW! ;)
Loka Gallente adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.27 18:19:00 - [143] Edited by: Loka on 27/10/2006 18:21:00 Iam sorry 5 of 10 ppl here dont argue at all. In my opinion, Hyperion will kill Dreads like flys and will be able to tank any Deathstar with only one Large Armor Rep II. Ok now you have same method of argumentaion you are giving. Hyperion as better Sniper ... SURE ... well wait. Let me give you two words ... Lockingrange Tracking. Ppl who try to tell me 4 DMG mods are worht fitting, HAVE no clue. Yeah 3% more dmg for a waste of a slot. I would rather go with a plate or a trackig mod or a DCU. Clueless ppl 4tl. Sorry that i have responded that harsh, but such ppl just ** me of. If you not arguing at all, just STFU and read the threat instead. Originally by:** rgreat And btw, megathron have 5 large drones compared to hyperion 4... BlasteRion? Nah, BlasterThron and HyperRail FTW! ;) One less Drone even if you use T2 Berserker is less DPS than another large gun. And you will be better of with EW Drones than with more DPS. Also one more medslot maybe will the reduce the ability of the Megathron to even fight back. Because of the bad locking range and the lack of Tracking, the HYPERION WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO SNIPE OR TO USE RAILS AS GOOD AS A MEGATHRON, which will use one less slot for a Sensorbooster and has at lvl 5 25% better tracking than the the hyperion. Also the Hyperion will have problems fitting 8 guns without wasting lowslots. The 2nd bonus will be absolut of NOUSE when sniping. If you dont know why, then you really have no clue. You SIR are wrong. Plain and simple. _________________________ Noob In Action - [NIA]
Centurin Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.10.27 18:27:00 - [144] One of the biggest problems with the Hyperion and new Gallente ships in general is the rep bonus. With HP increasing every patch it seems, it's a worthless bonus. The resistence bonuses that other races get is so much better it's not even debatable. The Hyperion and the Myrmidon would be much improved if it were changed. ----------------------------------------------- "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" - Optimus Prime
Aypse Sanguine Legion Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.27 18:43:00 - [145] Hype needs 1 more sensor booster than a megathron needs to achieve near equivallent locking ranges. That eliminates that extra slot you were going put the tracking computer in. Hype-3 SB T2, 2 Tracking computer (2x SB T2 gets 151km, 3=204km) Mega-2SB T2, 2 Tracking computer (220km locking range) 150km is just not usually enough range for a dedicated sniper setup. Even sniping at gates you are going to have to move into sentry range to make sure you can target ships that warp into the gate. To get equivalent tracking to the mega, it needs at least 1 extra tracking enhancer, which means its now 2 low slots less than the megathron. So I guess the Hype can be a better close-range sniper(if that makes sense), but after 150km the mega is better due to its increased locking range and bonus. You are right about blasters needing more tracking than rail sniping. I was thinking about when a mega is typically in blaster range, they also have their target webbed down, so not much in the way of transversal.
rgreat Gallente OEG	Posted - 2006.10.27 18:52:00 - [146] Edited by: rgreat on 27/10/2006 18:53:02 Originally by: Aypse Hype needs 1 more sensor booster than a megathron needs to achieve near equivallent locking ranges. That eliminates that extra slot you were going put the tracking computer in. Hype-3 SB T2, 2 Tracking computer (2x SB T2 gets 151km, 3=204km) Mega-2SB T2, 2 Tracking computer (220km locking range) 150km is just not usually enough range for a dedicated sniper setup. Even sniping at gates you are going to have to move into sentry range to make sure you can target ships that warp into the gate. To get equivalent tracking to the mega, it needs at least 1 extra tracking enhancer, which means its now 2 low slots less than the megathron. I usually fit 3 sensor boosters on megathron so it is no change. Lock time is a must in fleet battles. And Hyperion will have better lock time then a mega. Quote: So I guess the Hype can be a better close-range sniper(if that makes sense), but after 150km the mega is better due to its increased locking range and bonus. Why? We have instalock 200+ km range on Hyperion. Thats quite enough with new (+80% range) t2 hybrid ammo. And Hyper have all needed tracking and better damage then a mega. Quote: You are right about blasters needing more tracking than rail sniping. I was thinking about when a mega is typically in blaster range, they also have their target webbed down, so not much in the way of transversal. In fact to hit with blasters you need RMR Null L ammo or you must web target to a near stop and stop yourself.
Grinkur	Posted - 2006.10.27 19:26:00 - [147] So, if whit the nerfed spike ammo it is still a viable sniper there is no point in nerfing the targeting range. I think devs should consider changing the targeting range in the Hype to something more in line with gallente ships. Maybe around 67 km. That is less than the Mega and the Domi but still good for sniping with 2 SB II.
rgreat Gallente OEG	Posted - 2006.10.27 19:36:00 - [148] Edited by: rgreat on 27/10/2006 19:42:02 Originally by: Loka In my opinion, Hyperion will kill Dreads like flys and will be able to tank any Deathstar with only one Large Armor Rep II. You SIR are wrong. Plain and simple. Noob. :P No offence. Just kidding.
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 19:46:00 - [149] Keep the ship as it is! signed.
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:51:00 - [150] Originally by: Centurin One of the biggest problems with the Hyperion and new Gallente ships in general is the rep bonus. With HP increasing every patch it seems, it's a worthless bonus. The resistence bonuses that other races get is so much better it's not even debatable. The Hyperion and the Myrmidon would be much improved if it were changed. In line with the HP increase of ships and plates, I wonder... would it make sense to therefore increase all armor reppers cycle by 50% more hitpoints too? Otherwise who in their right mind will use reppers over plates?

Ben Hump Minmatar Random Execution Party	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:54:00 - [151] well i think the ship is really good its armor rep is amazing and deals out a fair ammount of dmg if i would improve it i would give it less sig radius and more drone bay then i think its a pure dominator May contain traces of irony, period and enter do not belong on my keyboard "Yes Mister Tristan"
Torment Caldari Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.10.27 21:57:00 - [152] Now your catching on Butter Dog,Its what all the experienced blaster pilots are on about...trying to armour rep in battle suck against using plates and damage mods. I just wish people would see that this ship is really not very good instead of looking at its rep bonus and a few extra hit points and wetting there pants over it.I would take a hyperion on anyday in my mega.
Hitokiri 'ger Caldari Mystic Lion Hearts Freelancer Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.27 22:02:00 - [153] the amount of hp a ship has is not as important as the amount it can constantly rep. and an extra amount of hp wil giv it a longer puffer to rep. aslong as ther is no damag increas aswel then you can tank a ship entyerly away for ever - and a ship with only much hp sumtime will run out. that means - vs serten maches the Hyperion is invinseble as long as it has cap - the 37,5% mor rep will extend that range a lot. now as menchend befor a Hyperion can tank a megas guns (and the mega has the highest DPS) as long as it has capboosters - a mega cant tank that much. so basicly that fight wuld be 5 heavy drons vs 4heavy drons + say 3 blasters -> ovies whos gona win. still the Hyperion needs a few changes - giv it a litle mor grid + mwd stuf + 25m¦ dronbay and an uber designe XP


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