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Liru Okami
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Posted - 2006.10.25 13:44:00 -
[1]
Ok now correct me if i am wrong but isn't the point of a warp stabalizer to counter an enemy from jamming you?
With this proposed nerf fitting enough stabalizers to make shure you cant be scrabled makes you combat ineffective. Theres a need for combat in eve but theres plenty of it already. All I can see this doing is fracking the players that want to avoid PK style players.
The chances are that players useing scramblers have a clear advantage over their "prey" so keeping them there to fight just insures they get killed. Instead of eliminateing an "I win" button it's just changed hands.
Discuss
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Estel Arador
Minmatar
AFK
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Posted - 2006.10.25 13:47:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Estel Arador on 25/10/2006 13:47:56
Now WCS are only for people who are travelling, not for people who are fighting.
It means you actually have a chance to sneak up on that sniper and scramble him (because he can't snipe anymore with WCS fitted).
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Guurzak
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.10.25 13:51:00 -
[3]
 Quote:
fitting enough stabalizers to make shure you cant be scrabled makes you combat ineffective
That's the whole point. If you want a fight, you need to commit to the fight. If you don't want a fight, go ahead and stab up.
Stabs are still fine for hauling and migrating; they're just not a part of a combat fitting. People who truly want to avoid combat altogether can still do that with stabs; people who want to hit and run without consequences cannot.
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Captain IceEye
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.25 13:51:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Captain IceEye on 25/10/2006 13:52:52
To the OP:
erm... u got it all wrong...
wcs nerf = targeting range and targeting speed reduced when wcs equipped
in other words - if you want to avoid battle, you dont need targeting range and targeting speed - so no nerf there.
Get it??
Its all good, u see. 
elfen > read the forums they will tell u the truth |
Liru Okami
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Posted - 2006.10.25 13:55:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Liru Okami on 25/10/2006 13:59:34
Ok than what about blaster style ships. the up close and personal varity of players.
If your ventureing into low security for a mission your still going to be equiped to fight but its fighting pirates, not players.
(and doen even start the arguement they are compleatly different load outs and mods for a PVP and PVE ship)
Wouldent it make more sence to have a counterpoint to whe scrmbler and the stabalizer. Say if your useing or fitting one it's going to screw with the other. it's like having two diametricaly opposed fields going on in the same ship.
Stabalizers sacrafice lowslots, basicaly armor tanking, scramblers sacrafice mis slots aka shield tanking. where is the problem?
~edit~
Had another thought, what about caldari ships that can spam enough fof type missles to take on targets. Their lock on range is fixed to the weapon isn't it?
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EvilNate
Caldari
Coreli Corporation
Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.25 13:58:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Liru Okami
Ok than what about blaster style ships. the up close and personal varity of players.
If your ventureing into low security for a mission your still going to be equiped to fight but its fighting pirates, not players.
(and doen even start the arguement they are compleatly different load outs and mods for a PVP and PVE ship)
Wouldent it make more sence to have a counterpoint to whe scrmbler and the stabalizer. Say if your useing or fitting one it's going to screw with the other. it's like having two diametricaly opposed fields going on in the same ship.
Stabalizers sacrafice lowslots, basicaly armor tanking, scramblers sacrafice mis slots aka shield tanking. where is the problem?
Risk vs reward. Its about time you learnt to take care of yourself. If you are going ratting in low sec or mission running, be careful. Don't be near warp in points, so if someone comes in, you can warp out quick.
Also, if you are doing "close range" fitting, then you just have to deal with a longer lock time. Not really that big a deal in PVE.
Nate.
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Lireil Crow
Supero Omnia
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Posted - 2006.10.25 14:00:00 -
[7]
look dude, its girls like you who stab up and run from every fight they can't win, so you have to fight like a man now, and not like little girls.
Sorry this has to be one the best things.
Easy point, learn how to pvp for real.
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Scoundrelus
Unseen Jihad
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Posted - 2006.10.25 14:02:00 -
[8]
I 100% for the stab nerf (being a pirate and all) but I have a question. Now what will be the point of 2 point scramblers? I realize that hauling ships will have them fitted (not often though because they need room for cargo expanders) but those ships are so slow and so weak you usually don't even need a scrambler.
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We are Watching You. |
Captain IceEye
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.25 14:02:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Captain IceEye on 25/10/2006 14:03:46
Originally by: Liru Okami
Ok than what about blaster style ships. the up close and personal varity of players.
If your ventureing into low security for a mission your still going to be equiped to fight but its fighting pirates, not players.
(and doen even start the arguement they are compleatly different load outs and mods for a PVP and PVE ship)
Wouldent it make more sence to have a counterpoint to whe scrmbler and the stabalizer. Say if your useing or fitting one it's going to screw with the other. it's like having two diametricaly opposed fields going on in the same ship.
Stabalizers sacrafice lowslots, basicaly armor tanking, scramblers sacrafice mis slots aka shield tanking. where is the problem?
NPC rats are weak usually. Why do you need targeting range and targeting speed to fight low sec belt NPC prats - in a blaster boat?
Even with wcs equipped you will be able to target them, just targeting will take a bit longer. I do not see any problem there.
elfen > read the forums they will tell u the truth |
Liru Okami
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Posted - 2006.10.25 14:06:00 -
[10]
Yes i do hunt pirates. and in the most obnoxious way i have found to kill them is to sit around a "campout" cloaked waiting for them to get into a good fight. after the victor (98% of the time it' s the camper) wins i simply uncloak and hit him with shots streight to the structure one maybe two vollys and boom theres a helpless pod left for me to kill. and a screaming infuriated PK on the other side.
This is my mission in EvE to bring utter and pure misery at opertunity to PK players. The only people i see the nerf helping is them.
Originally by: Lireil Crow
look dude, its girls like you who stab up and run from every fight they can't win, so you have to fight like a man now, and not like little girls.
Sorry this has to be one the best things.
Easy point, learn how to pvp for real.
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Max Teranous
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.10.25 14:09:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Scoundrelus
I 100% for the stab nerf (being a pirate and all) but I have a question. Now what will be the point of 2 point scramblers? I realize that hauling ships will have them fitted (not often though because they need room for cargo expanders) but those ships are so slow and so weak you usually don't even need a scrambler.
Cap usage mainly. 2 point scrams take way less cap/sec to run than 1 point scrambs, so it's a good option for frigs and such which need the cap for other mods.
Max
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.25 14:09:00 -
[12]
Quote:
All I can see this doing is fracking the players that want to avoid PK style players.
All I can see this doing is 'fracking' exactly those PK style players that stabbed up their Vagas and Ravens to be impervious to biting off more than they can chew. Now the people trying to gank you actually have to risk being 'PKed' in return...
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ZOMG my sig was concordokkened!
Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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Liru Okami
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Posted - 2006.10.25 14:13:00 -
[13]
Ive watched my share of fights the majority of the rats i see never "bite off more than they can chew" the person laing the trap always has the clear advantage, they know theres a trap there. perhapse the new system scanning mods propsed will change alot of this. but makeing things more complicated for simple tasks like...
"I just got a lv 2 mission but i need to go into low sec space... what do you meen i need 8 days of training and 3million isk to avoid getting podded before my UI loads?"
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
All I can see this doing is 'fracking' exactly those PK style players that stabbed up their Vagas and Ravens to be impervious to biting off more than they can chew. Now the people trying to gank you actually have to risk being 'PKed' in return...
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Captain IceEye
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.25 14:13:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Captain IceEye on 25/10/2006 14:17:19
Originally by: Liru Okami
Yes i do hunt pirates. and in the most obnoxious way i have found to kill them is to sit around a "campout" cloaked waiting for them to get into a good fight. after the victor (98% of the time it' s the camper) wins i simply uncloak and hit him with shots streight to the structure one maybe two vollys and boom theres a helpless pod left for me to kill. and a screaming infuriated PK on the other side.
This is my mission in EvE to bring utter and pure misery at opertunity to PK players. The only people i see the nerf helping is them.
In that case what about an alpha-strike boat? Keep WCS on, fit mods to counter targeting speed penalty, fit close range high damage guns. This way you should be able to run the same strategy you used to.
Edit: Do not forget, you will most likely need less scramblers to keep em in place, since they probably wont have wcs on. These free slots can be used for sensor boosters on your side for example.
elfen > read the forums they will tell u the truth |
Liru Okami
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Posted - 2006.10.25 14:16:00 -
[15]
That might work but i spent months of training on my Nemasis alone to do what it does now. starting over with new setups to tweek just meens more money wasted on "failed atempts. Have you seen the prices on cloaking devices now days?
Originally by: Captain IceEye
In that case what about an alpha-strike boat? Keep WCS on, fit mods to counter targeting speed penalty, fit close range high damage guns. This way you should be able to run the same strategy you used to.
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Frater Perdurabo
The Ancient Illuminated Seers of Bavaria
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Posted - 2006.10.25 14:16:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Frater Perdurabo on 25/10/2006 14:18:18
Originally by: Liru Okami
The only people i see the nerf helping is them.
Its a nerf to everyone that uses wcs, pirates (please dont use the term 'pk') and missionrunners and miners and well, everybody that used to fit em - I dont think it helps the large quantities of pirates that go round with lots of wcs fitted so if they do get in combat they cant handle they can run away does it now? (and yes i see a lot of people like this about)
EDIT - read the above, that seems like more a tactics issue, if there tactic is better than yours then adapt.
Ps, dont you just ******* hate it that people are using the word 'frack' in real life, it ****es me the **** off i can tell you :P
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Please note that my response to this thread is probably a result of boredom, and its very likely that i dont care, but am posting in an attempt to wind someone up |
Captain IceEye
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.25 14:22:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Captain IceEye on 25/10/2006 14:25:16
Originally by: Liru Okami
That might work but i spent months of training on my Nemasis alone to do what it does now. starting over with new setups to tweek just meens more money wasted on "failed atempts. Have you seen the prices on cloaking devices now days?
Originally by: Captain IceEye
In that case what about an alpha-strike boat? Keep WCS on, fit mods to counter targeting speed penalty, fit close range high damage guns. This way you should be able to run the same strategy you used to.
Well, then keep the same number of wcs on as you have now, replace a second scrambler that you have most likely fitted with a sensor booster. This way trying out if your strategy still works means not risking any more then you used to.
Edit: Actually you might even risk less with the wcs changes, because the targets most likely have less scramblers fitted as well.
elfen > read the forums they will tell u the truth |
Liru Okami
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Posted - 2006.10.25 14:25:00 -
[18]
It happens, some people fit both so they can tackle and still warp if they see someone tring to tackle back (like a scout preceeding a larger fleet)
as for the PK label i use it to refer to players who do just that. no ryme reason or purpose for engaugeing a ship other than to kill someone (megathrons and apoc taking out 2 month old destroyers and such). A "pirate" is someone off a compleatly different cloth. Real pirates ask for ransom, or cargo or demand taxes for entering their space. PK's kill without question or cause.
PS: the frack thing slips thru the word filter and gets the point across. ^^ would you prefer Frell?
Originally by: Frater Perdurabo
Its a nerf to everyone that uses wcs, pirates (please dont use the term 'pk') and missionrunners and miners and well, everybody that used to fit em - I dont think it helps the large quantities of pirates that go round with lots of wcs fitted so if they do get in combat they cant handle they can run away does it now?
Ps, dont you just ******* hate it that people are using the word 'frack' in real life, it ****es me the **** off i can tell you :P
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Liru Okami
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Posted - 2006.10.25 14:28:00 -
[19]
Hmm god point, however i use burst ecm's to kick off targeting locks then cloak imedately when things go terribly wrong. It may be a t2 frigate but danm that thing is brittle w/o alot of tanks
Originally by: Captain IceEye
]In that case what about an alpha-strike boat? Keep WCS on, fit mods to counter targeting speed penalty, fit close range high damage guns. This way you should be able to run the same strategy you used to.
Well, then keep the same number of wcs on as you have now, replace a second scrambler that you have most likely fitted with a sensor booster. This way trying out if your strategy still works means not risking any more then you used to.
Edit: Actually you might even risk less with the wcs changes, because the targets most likely have less scramblers fitted as well.
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Andrachim Tar'nar
The first genesis
Myriad Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.25 14:30:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Max Teranous
Originally by: Scoundrelus
I 100% for the stab nerf (being a pirate and all) but I have a question. Now what will be the point of 2 point scramblers? I realize that hauling ships will have them fitted (not often though because they need room for cargo expanders) but those ships are so slow and so weak you usually don't even need a scrambler.
Cap usage mainly. 2 point scrams take way less cap/sec to run than 1 point scrambs, so it's a good option for frigs and such which need the cap for other mods.
Yeah, and to get stabbed up haulers/travelers and stuff ;)
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Captain IceEye
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.25 14:33:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Liru Okami
Hmm god point, however i use burst ecm's to kick off targeting locks then cloak imedately when things go terribly wrong. It may be a t2 frigate but danm that thing is brittle w/o alot of tanks
Originally by: Captain IceEye
]In that case what about an alpha-strike boat? Keep WCS on, fit mods to counter targeting speed penalty, fit close range high damage guns. This way you should be able to run the same strategy you used to.
Well, then keep the same number of wcs on as you have now, replace a second scrambler that you have most likely fitted with a sensor booster. This way trying out if your strategy still works means not risking any more then you used to.
Edit: Actually you might even risk less with the wcs changes, because the targets most likely have less scramblers fitted as well.
You use burst ECMs? To be honest, then there might be a change in Kali which realy effects you... ECMs have been nerfed in case you didnt know. And this will hurt your strategy much more then the wcs changes.
elfen > read the forums they will tell u the truth |
Liru Okami
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Posted - 2006.10.25 14:36:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Liru Okami on 25/10/2006 14:41:39
Oh christ what are they doing to ecm's now? I gotta go read the dev blog on this one.
yeash when ccp swings the nerf bat they use the Big one.
~edit~
So from what i gather only dedicated ecm warships will be any use at jamming or kicking off a lock. Just great, now the stealth bomber is becoming more useless by the second. I still dont understand why the act of cloaking is prohibited by someone having a lock (or more ubsuedly tring to lock)
So a ship designed to make "hit and run" attacke is now just kinda "hit and stay there a while"
Originally by: Captain IceEye
You use burst ECMs? To be honest, then there might be a change in Kali which realy effects you... ECMs have been nerfed in case you didnt know. And this will hurt your strategy much more then the wcs changes.
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Frater Perdurabo
The Ancient Illuminated Seers of Bavaria
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Posted - 2006.10.25 14:47:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Liru Okami
It happens, some people fit both so they can tackle and still warp if they see someone tring to tackle back (like a scout preceeding a larger fleet)
as for the PK label i use it to refer to players who do just that. no ryme reason or purpose for engaugeing a ship other than to kill someone (megathrons and apoc taking out 2 month old destroyers and such). A "pirate" is someone off a compleatly different cloth. Real pirates ask for ransom, or cargo or demand taxes for entering their space. PK's kill without question or cause.
PS: the frack thing slips thru the word filter and gets the point across. ^^ would you prefer Frell?
If your a scout you'd be in a ceptor, i dont really find it hard running away without wcs in a ceptor, thats why there so damn fast; and anyway your tackling them, why shouldnt they tackle you?
Too many people started to fit wcs as a must have mod to ensure they can never die but can kill people themselves, hardly fair really that is it? If you have no intention of being in combat, fine, fit em still. If people do wanna shoot stuff they better come up with some decent tactics to ensure they dont die, as opposed to the 'i cant lose' of wcs.
Maybe a fair point about people that feel the need to pwn 2week old newbs in blatently crap ships with no good mods on, trouble is you'd be suprised how often the alleged newb turns out to be an alt from a 3yr old player transporting implants etc, it really does happen. (tho maybe not the ones in asteroid belts granted)
Finally i'd just use the word ****. As you might have noticed if you quote a post it shows what they actually wrote instead of the ****** business anyway.
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Please note that my response to this thread is probably a result of boredom, and its very likely that i dont care, but am posting in an attempt to wind someone up |
Darkartz
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Posted - 2006.10.25 15:06:00 -
[24]
its a shame for me, i dont pirate or PvP that much thesedays, however i do like killing rats in certain systems that are "owned" by pirates.
i usually have some stabs fitted so that if they come for me i can get away, now ill have to go back in to empire and fly tier1 ships, cause frankly i am not loosing my ship to a dude who gets kicks out of ganking me from so far away the only way ill ever see him is thru a long range scanner :(
its a shame, its gonna drive folks like me back in to empire, because there are a bunch of people that start stuff with no intention of finishing it unless they can win.
/Theo
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James Don
Gallente
KDM Corp
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.10.25 15:15:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Darkartz
its a shame for me, i dont pirate or PvP that much thesedays, however i do like killing rats in certain systems that are "owned" by pirates.
i usually have some stabs fitted so that if they come for me i can get away, now ill have to go back in to empire and fly tier1 ships, cause frankly i am not loosing my ship to a dude who gets kicks out of ganking me from so far away the only way ill ever see him is thru a long range scanner :(
its a shame, its gonna drive folks like me back in to empire, because there are a bunch of people that start stuff with no intention of finishing it unless they can win.
/Theo
Or you could look at it this way, those pirates cant get away from you anymore, lure them into a belt with a few warp scrams and have some friends wait in the next system and you can get some payback.
I can partly see your argument but WCS have become widely abused and this change is only a good thing, there are too many ships stabed up to the hilt running round 0.0 that only engage haulers and the like and are near impossible to catch even with a huge gang and no 1 ship is ment to be that powerful, the balance has simply been redressed.
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notify : Your cloaking systems are unable to activate due to your ship being within 2000 meters of the nearby Snowballs. |
Liru Okami
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Posted - 2006.10.25 15:19:00 -
[26]
I find that one little exploit leads to another, if the player cant run away with impunity they will do a "pull the plug" warp which as far as i can tell is imune to scrambleing. Expect a slew of posts about that once the nerf hits.
When a tiny little frigate starts jamming a cruiser or BC or even a battleship it meens something's up or could be just mind games and psycological warfare. maybe that little assault frigate has something up it's sleave and that can panic some campers into running. the ones that actually get into a long fight and get some serious dammage taken are the ones i go after. 
After all ive never been on the reciving end of a fair fight, why give a pirate the luxuary of one even remotely in their favor. Maybe i am just imbittered by a "bad eve childhood" but between scammers and PK style tatics i descided "enough is enough" after my first 6 months and started planning.
for now i have to figure a way to refit my bomber to get ariund the ECM nerf somehow. Seriously the regular nerfings remind me of UO back in the old days
Originally by: Frater Perdurabo
If your a scout you'd be in a ceptor, i dont really find it hard running away without wcs in a ceptor, thats why there so damn fast; and anyway your tackling them, why shouldnt they tackle you?
Too many people started to fit wcs as a must have mod to ensure they can never die but can kill people themselves, hardly fair really that is it? If you have no intention of being in combat, fine, fit em still. If people do wanna shoot stuff they better come up with some decent tactics to ensure they dont die, as opposed to the 'i cant lose' of wcs.
Maybe a fair point about people that feel the need to pwn 2week old newbs in blatently crap ships with no good mods on, trouble is you'd be suprised how often the alleged newb turns out to be an alt from a 3yr old player transporting implants etc, it really does happen. (tho maybe not the ones in asteroid belts granted)
Finally i'd just use the word ****. As you might have noticed if you quote a post it shows what they actually wrote instead of the ****** business anyway.
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Queen Hades
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Posted - 2006.10.25 15:23:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Estel Arador
Edited by: Estel Arador on 25/10/2006 13:47:56
Now WCS are only for people who are travelling, not for people who are fighting.
It means you actually have a chance to sneak up on that sniper and scramble him (because he can't snipe anymore with WCS fitted).
/signed
No more annoying "suprise pvp'ers" you can't scram when they attack you and did only see you fly a frig but a) not which one and b) you are much older then them.
I like the new wcs nerf, will make Eve a much safer place.
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Liru Okami
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Posted - 2006.10.25 15:32:00 -
[28]
I belive you grossly underestimate the mind of the griefer, "Have PVP will grief" is the motto. i dont see how making it harder to get away makes eve any safer.
Originally by: Queen Hades
No more annoying "suprise pvp'ers" you can't scram when they attack you and did only see you fly a frig but a) not which one and b) you are much older then them.
I like the new wcs nerf, will make Eve a much safer place.
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Captain IceEye
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.25 15:32:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Captain IceEye on 25/10/2006 15:33:25
Originally by: Liru Okami
Edited by: Liru Okami on 25/10/2006 14:41:39
Oh christ what are they doing to ecm's now? I gotta go read the dev blog on this one.
yeash when ccp swings the nerf bat they use the Big one.
~edit~
So from what i gather only dedicated ecm warships will be any use at jamming or kicking off a lock. Just great, now the stealth bomber is becoming more useless by the second. I still dont understand why the act of cloaking is prohibited by someone having a lock (or more ubsuedly tring to lock)
So a ship designed to make "hit and run" attacke is now just kinda "hit and stay there a while"
Originally by: Captain IceEye
You use burst ECMs? To be honest, then there might be a change in Kali which realy effects you... ECMs have been nerfed in case you didnt know. And this will hurt your strategy much more then the wcs changes.
Liru, this is a bit off topic, but the stealth bombers never got much love from CCP. Which is a pity, especially in case of the nemesis and its cool looks.
Anyways most of the bigger patches CCP has released included major changes. At first sight they might or might not look 'bad', but in general CCP know quite while what they are doing - and they will rebalance in case a change realy went totaly wrong. Changes always need adjusting on our (the players) part, but that is a little price to pay for a generally constantly improving game.
I personally like both, the ECM and the WCS changes. But I understand that especially the ECM changes will hit you hard. So time to develop a new strategy - maybe an ecm ship with an improved cloak? Anyways take the changes as a challenge, like a general does if the weather unexpectatly changes or new weapons are developed.
elfen > read the forums they will tell u the truth |
Liru Okami
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Posted - 2006.10.25 15:39:00 -
[30]
Right now the bomber uses the improved cloaking device 2 not the prototype one. the "covert ops" cloak can only fit on the little helios one.
Sadly I cant fit a cloaking device to anything but a covert ops or recon ship (more months of training away) and expect to have effective ECM's but we will see what happens. till then back to the drawing board.
but getting back to the WCS topic i just dont see the "problem players" going away so easily. they read the same development blogs the rest of the playerbase does. so theres probly a plan to counter that too.
Originally by: Captain IceEye
Liru, this is a bit off topic, but the stealth bombers never got much love from CCP. Which is a pity, especially in case of the nemesis and its cool looks.
Anyways most of the bigger patches CCP has released included major changes. At first sight they might or might not look 'bad', but in general CCP know quite while what they are doing - and they will rebalance in case a change realy went totaly wrong. Changes always need adjusting on our (the players) part, but that is a little price to pay for a generally constantly improving game.
I personally like both, the ECM and the WCS changes. But I understand that especially the ECM changes will hit you hard. So time to develop a new strategy - maybe an ecm ship with an improved cloak? Anyways take the changes as a challenge, like a general does if the weather unexpectatly changes or new weapons are developed.
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