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Abaddon? What could be changed?

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Nero Winger Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.26 02:23:00 - [1] It is easier for the GMs to figure out what everyone wants/needs for their lovely tier3 bs. Changes, improvements or making them useful. Please post in this topic only your complains/compliments about the abaddon. Please do not post about any other tier3 battleship. Lets make it a useful topic for the reader and not a bunch of posts that are full of unnessesary flaimings. Ill start: As fas ias i know it was common known that the abaddon will not have a cap bonus on lasers. Also it was known that it will have therefore a tanking and a damagebonus. But as i see the abaddon is useless at the moment. The purpose of the abaddon was a sniping platform (as far as i know) but with aurora L using the same amount of cap like Gleam L it is way to hard to keep any cap supplyng the weapons and the tank. The fact is that a battleship is designed to make a lot of damage and to take a lot of damage. The abaddon is slow like a battleship and it has a sig radius of a battleship (of corse it has) so it have all the charakteristics of an battleship except that damagetaking part. The 5% RoF bonus is nice but not well planed. As 25% RoF bonus makes the cap use of the turrets also 25% higher it even hardens the usage of the abaddon. Therefore my first suggestion would be to take the 5% RoF bonus away and make it to a 5% damage bonus. Also to improve the cargohold as it only contain 525m^3 (less than a apoc) and the abaddon will need a lot of cap booster charges to run for 3-5 minutes, the cargohold could be a little larger. Thanks for reading and best regards, N.W.
Kalidri Ngyuen Amarr Decimus Corp	Posted - 2006.10.26 02:58:00 - [2] I personally feel something like %10 Reducion in Cap use on Energy turrets or %10-15 Cap Recharge time , with either a RoF bonus or a Damage Bonus
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.10.26 03:03:00 - [3] Easy, I posted an entire thread about it when the "temporary" stats were gleaned. 8 turrets/7 launchers - same bonuses as now. It would do less damage than a Raven, but allow a capless damage option so you could actually choose to tank the Don. Any laser on it now pretty much negates the option to tank. It also needs about 24,500 base grid so it can fit Tachys with 1 RCU II. A bit more cpu would be nice as well. I don't mind fitting an RCU II, but I shouldnt have to fit an RCU II AND a Co-proc II as well. Nyxus It's great being Amarr, ain't it?Ö
BlackHorizon Caldari Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.26 03:06:00 - [4] Edited by: BlackHorizon on 26/10/2006 03:07:09 With the geddon's bigger drone bay, the abbadon doesn't even outdamage the geddon under most gank fittings and good drone skills. And because the geddon has a 8th low-slot, under some circumstances it can have a better tank (more plates, faction hardeners, etc...) Personally, I'd like to see the abbadon become a big arbitrator: 200 m3 drone bay, 6/6/7 slot layout, 40% to tracking disruptor optimal per lvl, 10% to drone dmg/hitpoints However, if we're keeping it as a laser ship, change the armor resist bonus into a 5% dmg per lvl, so it would have 5%rof and 5% dmg per level. Now THAT would be a true gank ship.
Kalidri Ngyuen Amarr Decimus Corp	Posted - 2006.10.26 03:11:00 - [5] Originally by: BlackHorizon Personally, I'd like to see the abbadon become a big arbitrator: 200 m3 drone bay People keep asking for a bigger drone bay, yes for the tanking it would help but I believe this **** is more leaned towards Sniping and therefore the drone bay is useless, and that would explain why CCP have made it so
Nero Winger Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.26 06:48:00 - [6] Originally by: Toaster Oven Moved from Ships and Modules -Eldo Finally got onto Sisi for some testing. Here are some numbers for those of you wondering about the cap issue Relevant skills info Max gunnery, including Controlled Bursts 5 Amarr BS 5 Max cap skills Max armor tanking skills No implants Testing scenario Undock from station with 100% cap, 4 cap booster 800s loaded, and another 12 in cargo. Measure time from initial firing till cap death (ie. one or modules inactivate due to insufficient cap). If using cap booster (1x Heavy Electrochemical), cap boosting begins almost immediately after firing commences. If using repairer, delay 10sec before activating. Results are average of 3 attempts. Results 8x MP II + Conflag + 3x HS II without cap booster: 1min 21sec 8x MP II + Conflag + 3x HS II with cap booster: 4min 21 sec, last cap booster consumed at 3min 53sec 8x MP II + Conflag + 3x HS II + 1x LAR II with cap booster: 1min 58sec, 8 cap booster 800s remaining 8x MP II + Conflag + 3x HS II + 2x LAR II with cap booster: 1min 7sec, 12 cap booster 800s remaining 8x Tachyon II + Aurora + 3x HS II without cap booster: 1min 3sec 8x Tachyon II + Aurora + 3x HS II with cap booster: 2min 6sec, 8 cap booster 800s remaining These numbers are the absolute best you can expect and tbh a bit unrealistic. There aren't too many fights where you start out with 100% cap and have no one NOSing you. In testing, you can expect closer to 2/3 those times in a normal PVP scenario both short and long range. Or less if you're fighting a NOS Domi . I capped out almost every time when fighting another BS. The cap use is simply put beyond ridiculous. Devs, I hope you reconsider and turn the Abbadon into something useful. As it stands, it's simply a joke and you should be ashamed for even releasing it. Gimme a ship where I can use both bonuses at the same time, like every other ship in the game This datas indicate that is really needs the RoF changed to a damage bonus if it does not have a -10%turrets cap usage
Aeaus Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.26 06:53:00 - [7] Ugh, where to begin. 1- Amarr Damage sucks, this isn't a problem with the ships it's with the tanking changes, so ideally Amarr should be balanced to what the other Amarr ships do and hope for this to be fixed later. 2- The abaddon is half a geddon, half an apoc and stuck in between. It can gank for a limited time period and then it's out of the fight. It can't tank without running out of capacitor. 3- It lacks a design direction. Tier III BS to rivel the dominix with drones would make me happy, but I doubt tuxford and his "Amarr aren't that bad," attitude will give amarr anything but annother cookie-cutter worthless ship.
Nero Winger Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.26 06:55:00 - [8] Originally by: Nyxus Easy, I posted an entire thread about it when the "temporary" stats were gleaned. 8 turrets/7 launchers - same bonuses as now. It would do less damage than a Raven, but allow a capless damage option so you could actually choose to tank the Don. Any laser on it now pretty much negates the option to tank. It also needs about 24,500 base grid so it can fit Tachys with 1 RCU II. A bit more cpu would be nice as well. I don't mind fitting an RCU II, but I shouldnt have to fit an RCU II AND a Co-proc II as well. Nyxus you have a point there, but this would again chaing not much. Again the armageddon is better in dps and the apoc usefuller (the same dps while ability to tank) Originally by: Nyxus It also needs about 24,500 base grid so it can fit Tachys with 1 RCU II. A bit more cpu would be nice as well. I don't mind fitting an RCU II, but I shouldnt have to fit an RCU II AND a Co-proc II as well. that would be a point to. The other tier3 battleships can wary their fitting to only one or none RCU. Fitting 2 RCU on the abaddon generally takes 2 lowslot away and waist them. By making a sniper ship for amarr it should havethe ability to fir the longrange laser tachyon beam laser II.
Nero Winger Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.26 06:59:00 - [9] Originally by: Kalidri Ngyuen I personally feel something like %10 Reducion in Cap use on Energy turrets or %10-15 Cap Recharge time , with either a RoF bonus or a Damage Bonus then we again have a armageddon wiht one slot more and 1 large drone less. the change into a damagebonus would safe 25% cap imediately. It is the cap issue that the abaddon has les cap than an apoc. If the cap of the abaddon would be mesurable with the apoc (7500cap with bs on lvl5) and the RoF changed to a Damagebonus then it would be more usable.
Nifel Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.26 07:15:00 - [10] 10% armor hp & 5% armor resistance as suggested by DigitalCommunist was kinda nice. Would still need a more sizeable cap than it has now. Enough pg to have a full rack of tachs with just 1 rcu2 would also be nice. "When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14)

meppa Black Omega Security The OSS	Posted - 2006.10.26 08:16:00 - [11] One of its bonuses needs to change to standard amarr -10% cap usage of energy turrets per level. Since we don't have bs with resistance bonuse it would be nice to get that, so ditch damage and rof bonuses and make it 5% armour res per level and 10% cap use. Also, slight boost to basic cap would be in place also to get it closer to apoc (but should be still worse then apoc with bs 5). Amarr don't need damage bonuses as we have our tachyons. While everyone whine how lasers are poor, tachyon is only large turret that don't need ship based bonuses to be good. This is why tachyons need huge amount of cap to run and amarrs get their reduction on using those. When that bonus is removed we can't use our otherwise superior lasers. It is pure joke that we get presented with abbadon that is supposed to deal lots of damage but is missing this crusial bonus that makes amarr ships work. Thanks to all amarr whines on how lasers suck and everything is fubarred no one apparently is taking this issue seriously. There is nothing wrong with amarr. Only one new ship is unusable (unless plan was to make nos boat, in where 5% rof bonus is wasted).
Sniser 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.26 08:24:00 - [12] Only wrong with abaddon is the ship have the same powergrid than malestorm. Everybody who thinks abaddon is useless its because they are just looking the ship from out and without counting rigs. Abaddon do more damage than geddon with rigs(geddon dont have enough pg after MP and plates) also bonus is applied to 8 guns instead 7 Abaddon tanks better than a apoc. More base cap and plus resists and again more PG left to use rigs. Begin to think out of the box and you will see how good is the ship. Again the only problem is malestorm and abaddon have the same pg but AC and Artys use less PG atm this ship dont work with standard fits need new fits. Free your mind ;) It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
Forsch Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.26 08:26:00 - [13] We already have 2 turret ships hat are quite similar (compared to the battleships of other races). Why do we need a 3rd? From close range gank over tanked setups up to sniping we can do everything with the Armageddon and Apocalypse. Imo Caldari have the perfect distribution of battleships. Missiles, Railguns, EW. I would wish to see the Abaddon as a big arbitrator. A big drone bay, a couple turret and launcher slots (maybe 4/3). Bonus1: Tracking Disruptor optimal range (to counter snipers) Bonus2: Armor resist per level (drone hp/dmg would be nice but really, Gallente are the drone race and this would be too good compared to the domi.) I couldn't think of any setup for the current Abaddon that would be fun to fly. Part of the fitting is predefined because of the missing cap bonus, alot of roles have to be ruled out because geddon or apoc do it better. Give us something different, please! Forsch Defender of the empire
Perry Amarr The X-Trading Company Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.26 08:59:00 - [14] The Amarr Line of Ships is boring to say the least. Yes we got that abomination of a missile frig, and somehow that gallente drone cruiser slipped in, when Tuxford was on vacation. But the rest is... Turrets, Tank. Turrets Tank. Turrets tank. Turrets Tank. Turrets Tank. Turrets Tank.Turrets Tank.Turrets Tank.Turrets Tank.Turrets Tank.Turrets Tank.Turrets Tank.Turrets Tank.Turrets Tank.Turrets Tank.Turrets Tank.Turrets Tank.Turrets Tank.Turrets Tank.Turrets Tank. Thanks CCP for giving me more of the same with our new shiny... Turrets Tank. I can take my Geddon or Apoc Equipment 1:1 and put it on my Abaddon. As a 3 1/2 Years old Beta Veteran, i tell you (Ship-Design Devs) one thing: Im not amused. So please for the love of our killed and long forgotten Emperor, think about it once more and give us our "flexible" Ship. And I dont mean "Turrets or Tank." --------------------------- Suggestions for Abaddon Desingers: ->The Tracking Disruptor Bonus is a must, its in the Frig Line, its in the Cruiser line. ->The Drone Bonus is NOT a must, its only in the Cruiser Line, in the Frig Line we have a Missile Bonus. This implies that the Battleship Line could get something new. This should not be a bonus for Turrets or Tank, if that came to your Mind, evil Dev you... Stick to Drones for now. -Med Slots are PvP-Slots. Give it at least 5 Med Slots, and arange the rest around it. 6 Med Slots sound not too off, because the Arbitrator has one more More Slot then Vexor and no one screams blody murder. -Dont give in to Caldari and Gallente Fanboys who are used to sit in their Ravens and Domis and Pwn all. What are Amarr supposed to do in the meantime? getting Pwned over and over in Short-Medium Range? Thats not my idea of fair fun... So let me summarize my suggestion: Abaddon (mk2) -Less Armor and Grid, more CPU then Geddon/Apoc -Slotlayout: H/M/L - 6/6/7 or 7/5/7 -Weapons: T/M - 5/4 -Dronebay: between 150 and 200 (200 seems okay) -Bonus1: Tracking Disruptor Optimal (10%/lvl) -Bonus2: Drone Dmg/Hp ------------------------------------------ Now we usually get flamed by Gallente for getting a fair Chance in Short Range. I dont care.
Nero Winger Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.26 11:02:00 - [15] Originally by: Perry The Amarr Line of Ships is boring to say the least. Yes we got that abomination of a missile frig, and somehow that gallente drone cruiser slipped in, when Tuxford was on vacation. But the rest is... Turrets, Tank. Turrets Tank. Turrets tank. Turrets Tank. Turrets Tank. Turrets Tank.Turrets Tank.Turrets Tank.Turrets Tank.Turrets Tank.Turrets Tank.Turrets Tank.Turrets Tank.Turrets Tank.Turrets Tank.Turrets Tank.Turrets Tank.Turrets Tank.Turrets Tank.Turrets Tank. Thanks CCP for giving me more of the same with our new shiny... Turrets Tank. I can take my Geddon or Apoc Equipment 1:1 and put it on my Abaddon. As a 3 1/2 Years old Beta Veteran, i tell you (Ship-Design Devs) one thing: Im not amused. So please for the love of our killed and long forgotten Emperor, think about it once more and give us our "flexible" Ship. And I dont mean "Turrets or Tank." --------------------------- Suggestions for Abaddon Desingers: ->The Tracking Disruptor Bonus is a must, its in the Frig Line, its in the Cruiser line. ->The Drone Bonus is NOT a must, its only in the Cruiser Line, in the Frig Line we have a Missile Bonus. This implies that the Battleship Line could get something new. This should not be a bonus for Turrets or Tank, if that came to your Mind, evil Dev you... Stick to Drones for now. -Med Slots are PvP-Slots. Give it at least 5 Med Slots, and arange the rest around it. 6 Med Slots sound not too off, because the Arbitrator has one more More Slot then Vexor and no one screams blody murder. -Dont give in to Caldari and Gallente Fanboys who are used to sit in their Ravens and Domis and Pwn all. What are Amarr supposed to do in the meantime? getting Pwned over and over in Short-Medium Range? Thats not my idea of fair fun... So let me summarize my suggestion: Abaddon (mk2) -Less Armor and Grid, more CPU then Geddon/Apoc -Slotlayout: H/M/L - 6/6/7 or 7/5/7 -Weapons: T/M - 5/4 -Dronebay: between 150 and 200 (200 seems okay) -Bonus1: Tracking Disruptor Optimal (10%/lvl) -Bonus2: Drone Dmg/Hp ------------------------------------------ Now we usually get flamed by Gallente for getting a fair Chance in Short Range. I dont care. that sounds nice, but i do not really belive any GM will make us this christmas present. But it would be a logical step. Because Nosferatus are a amarr used weapon not gallente. and drones are a gallente speciality, not amarr. But considering the slots on the abaddon it would be also ok to fit it in the way of a nos/drone/turret ship. 4 Mega Pulse II, 4 Large Nosferatus Scrambler, Webber, 1 Trackingdis, MWD Dual large rep, 3* Adaptive nanomembrane II and a cap power relay. sounds like a nice pawnfit to me. but again: CCP tells me that the abaddon is designed to kill in longrange.......??..?
Nero Winger Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.26 11:04:00 - [16] BTW what the **** is a VIP key for the test server??? the last time i entered SiSi there were no freaky vipkey needed. Thanks for waiting 4 hours ... for nothing... that makes me now really angry!!
Nero Winger Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.26 11:21:00 - [17] oh and by the way. in the patchnoets i found this information written down by Tuxford: -------------------------------------------------- Abaddon: Bonuses: * 5% large energy weapon rate of fire per level * 5% armor resistance per level The most obvious thing about this ship is that it isn't getting any energy weapon capacitor need bonus. The bonuses it is getting however are pretty powerful. It has the option of more damage than an Armageddon or a better tank than an Apocalypse. The problem starts however when it tries to do both at once.Slot wise its gonna have 8 turret hardpoints, 8 high slots and 8 low slots. Whether it has one more slot than the Apocalypse isn't really decided but its quite clear that if it does then it will be a med slot. --------------------------------------------------- so the 8th low stol is missing and hmmkay a 5th medslot is nice but where the hell is it? i cant see it in any fittingdescription atm... Reference: Link to the Dev Blogs
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.26 11:29:00 - [18] Originally by: Nero Winger so the 8th low stol is missing and hmmkay a 5th medslot is nice but where the hell is it? i cant see it in any fittingdescription atm... i believe tuxford got a bit confused there and was actually talking about the geddon and not the apoc. as such his statement would have made a bit more sense: 8 highs, 8 lows and 1 more medslot than the geddon = 4 meds. as the original plan included giving the tier3 bs 1 more slot. its quiet an easy mistake to make considering how similar our battleships are so we cant really fault tux for mistaking the apoc for a geddon. as it turned out they decided against giving the new bs more slots and so we get stuck with the same slotlayout the apoc enjoys. lets just hope they dont add tier4 bs sometime in the future as it will be even harder for the devs to make out the difference between the 3 existing amarrian bs then.
Nero Winger Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.26 11:36:00 - [19] Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne Originally by: Nero Winger so the 8th low stol is missing and hmmkay a 5th medslot is nice but where the hell is it? i cant see it in any fittingdescription atm... i believe tuxford got a bit confused there and was actually talking about the geddon and not the apoc. as such his statement would have made a bit more sense: 8 highs, 8 lows and 1 more medslot than the geddon = 4 meds. as the original plan included giving the tier3 bs 1 more slot. its quiet an easy mistake to make considering how similar our battleships are so we cant really fault tux for mistaking the apoc for a geddon. as it turned out they decided against giving the new bs more slots and so we get stuck with the same slotlayout the apoc enjoys. lets just hope they dont add tier4 bs sometime in the future as it will be even harder for the devs to make out the difference between the 3 existing amarrian bs then. mkay 1 med more than the geddon and 1 low more than the apoc.. even with that description theres still one slot missing.
WiseMagic Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.26 11:38:00 - [20] I think poeple are not thinking far enough ahead, Abaddon +rigs will sort the cap problems just tried it on Sisi, used the cap recharge rig and cap size rig and it worked well with the Abaddon this will still leave 1 rig slot free for what ever u feel is needed i.e weapon dmg, sensor strenght, ECM boost....

Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.26 11:44:00 - [21] Originally by: WiseMagic I think poeple are not thinking far enough ahead, Abaddon +rigs will sort the cap problems just tried it on Sisi, used the cap recharge rig and cap size rig and it worked well with the Abaddon this will still leave 1 rig slot free for what ever u feel is needed i.e weapon dmg, sensor strenght, ECM boost.... so the abaddon will need 2 of its rig slots to make up for its shortcomings then while other ships are free to use all 3 as they please?
Tareen Kashaar eXin Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.26 11:46:00 - [22] Wow, I'm really starting to love the idea of a Tracking Disrupt/Nos/Drone Amarr battleship! THAT, ladies and gentlemen, would make for something interesting. You want to discourage blobs and make fights closer range? Make the Abbadon a Tracking Disrupt-Scorpion :) People are right when they say we only get more of the same... turrets & tank, some diversion would be very very nice! I'm serious. I just hope the dev's plans made so far don't stand in the way of this genius idea. --- WTS: Forum Signatures, 30mil a piece. Evemail me!
starship enginer	Posted - 2006.10.26 11:47:00 - [23] its a fine ship , i was told by the amarr loyalists that they are trying to post negatives about it so as to not get it nerfed hint: fit dual heavy cap injecters if you need [not like u dont got the grid or cpu] its a fine ship, it gets over 30k armor with MP T2 and 2 dmg mods [and that armor is resisted with 2x energized t2 and a large t2 rep] its a good ship, those whiners just dont know of any good setups for the ship, since none have yet been posted
Dupac Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains	Posted - 2006.10.26 11:57:00 - [24] Originally by: starship enginer its a fine ship , i was told by the amarr loyalists that they are trying to post negatives about it so as to not get it nerfed hint: fit dual heavy cap injecters if you need [not like u dont got the grid or cpu] its a fine ship, it gets over 30k armor with MP T2 and 2 dmg mods [and that armor is resisted with 2x energized t2 and a large t2 rep] its a good ship, those whiners just dont know of any good setups for the ship, since none have yet been posted What amarr loyalists? some drunk guy you met in a pub? Its three times the price of a geddon, does little more DPS than a geddon with drones. dual cap injectors? have you seen the size of the cargo bay? Considering your opponents will be nossing you to death while you feed them cap and use huge amounts of your own to shoot at them I don't think the extra injector will help a great deal. It's a lame duck ship with no role - it can't do enough damage (especially against eanm tanks with the hp boost) to kill other BS before it runs out of cap and you won't hurt anyone if you set it to tank.
Nero Winger Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.26 12:18:00 - [25] Originally by: starship enginer its a fine ship , i was told by the amarr loyalists that they are trying to post negatives about it so as to not get it nerfed hint: fit dual heavy cap injecters if you need [not like u dont got the grid or cpu] its a fine ship, it gets over 30k armor with MP T2 and 2 dmg mods [and that armor is resisted with 2x energized t2 and a large t2 rep] its a good ship, those whiners just dont know of any good setups for the ship, since none have yet been posted this reminds me on the first grade on grammar school. where allways some kids who are not interested in any corporation with anbody else and do think they are the most intelligent on the worl. go play with yourself... remember the first post: ---- Lets make it a useful topic for the reader and not a bunch of posts that are full of unnessesary flaimings. ----
Tareen Kashaar eXin Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.26 14:27:00 - [26] So no one has any more thoughts about the abbaddon as a potential EW ship? Someone should post this to the Tier 3 BS sticky too. --- WTS: Forum Signatures, 30mil a piece. Evemail me!
Dixon Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.26 14:40:00 - [27] Edited by: Dixon on 26/10/2006 14:46:36 moved to the big post - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
cyberdog	Posted - 2006.10.26 15:30:00 - [28] This ship doesn't excite me at all tbh. I was hoping for something fresh and new I don't think i'll be flying it, as it is i'll be sticking with my trusty geddon. Apoc is ghey atm too. I'm tired and cba to make suggestions. Think i'll start cross training caldari to be honest ooooo thats an idea
Olawy	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:53:00 - [29] Would be intresting if it had drone, resists and Nos/Neut bonus.Shiny golden Amarr answer to the Nossing Domi.
Nero Winger Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.26 23:36:00 - [30] it also would be nice to see it as a missile boat like the Sacrilege once was. It is only some weeks of training to train up for Large Tech 2 Torpdeoes and little bit more for Cruis Missiles (as you do not need the light missiles specs and the heavy missile speecs to strain). So not that bad at all. But if this fits into the amarr race is another question. Me personally would support the missile ship variation more than the nos one. Because you can always fit the Abaddon in a nos/trackingdisr./drone way with the atributes it has now. but anyway, how every it will be changed, either to a missile boat or a nos/drone/turret boat it will be better than it is at the moment. -SIG- Personally i do not flame at anybody --- BUT --- If you flame at me, do not expect that i will not return it in the same way....



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