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Krulla Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.18 13:41:00 - [31] Originally by: nexvis Edited by: nexvis on 18/11/2006 13:32:29 Originally by: Shaala precision light missiles... what a laugh when flying at 12000 m/s :D "Missiles hit anything at any speed, except Torps vs superfast ceptors", you sure made me laugh ^^ So quit expecting to omgpwn people with snake sets and faction fit crows/crusaders worth more than every ship you've ever owned combined. the 'average' interceptor is about 4000m/s, a 'good' ceptor pilot is approaching 4500. uber is above 5k. if you spent more than 3 hours on missile skills, you should be able to hit them (obviously not for full damage, but too bad, nobody wlse hits them for full damage if any at all). anything faster is just rich people with expensive toys, and they paid a lot of isk for you to not be able to touch them. Quit crying. Quoted for absolute truth. I hate it when people, mostly missile whiners make it look like every single interceptor is going around flying 10km/s+.
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.18 15:25:00 - [32] Edited by: Grey Area on 18/11/2006 15:27:21 Originally by: nexvis the 'average' interceptor is about 4000m/s, a 'good' ceptor pilot is approaching 4500. uber is above 5k. Missile damage calcs for your "good" interceptor (using sig radius 27) (edit: apologies, I typed "average" the first time) Rocket 10.12 pts Standard 1.09 pts Heavy 0.25 pts Cruise 0.07 pts Torp 0.02 pts And again, using sig radius 135 (assuming they have to use a MWD to get this fast...I don't know, I don't fly one) Rocket 10.12 pts Standard 1.51 pts Heavy 1.04 pts Cruise 0.38 pts Torp 0.11 pts Above assumes Warhead Upgrades, Guided Missile Precision and Target Navigation Prediction all at level 5. Missiles always hit. Joy. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Old Geeza The Retirement Home	Posted - 2006.11.18 15:28:00 - [33] Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: nexvis the 'average' interceptor is about 4000m/s, a 'good' ceptor pilot is approaching 4500. uber is above 5k. Missile damage calcs for your "average" interceptor (using sig radius 27) Rocket 10.12 pts Standard 1.09 pts Heavy 0.25 pts Cruise 0.07 pts Torp 0.02 pts And again, using sig radius 135 (assuming they have to use a MWD to get this fast...I don't know, I don't fly one) Rocket 10.12 pts Standard 1.51 pts Heavy 1.04 pts Cruise 0.38 pts Torp 0.11 pts Above assumes Warhead Upgrades, Guided Missile Precision and Target Navigation Prediction all at level 5. Missiles always hit. Joy. That's 0.11 more points of damage than any large, medium and most small turrets will ever hope to achieve against a ship moving quick. Until you've tried hitting stuff with turrets, keep your opinions to yourself. _______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues!
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.18 15:39:00 - [34] Edited by: Aramendel on 18/11/2006 15:41:01 Originally by: Grey Area And again, using sig radius 135 (assuming they have to use a MWD to get this fast...I don't know, I don't fly one) Yes, they do have to, and in this case it would be a sig radius of 162. The sig (and speed) bonus of MWDs is on top of the already exisiting one, so a sig bonus of +500% means a sig 6 times as big. And if they are using faction MWDs (which are needed for the higher speeds) they approach on 7 times the sig.
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.11.18 15:51:00 - [35] The kinetic bonus isn't crappy, it's balanced. Drones have different stats, with the same damage bonus. Missiles have the same stats, with differing damage bonus. Net result = pretty much equal and balanced. And for those whining about the Drake. Have you actually run the numbers on the damage? Actual fits for Tier 2 bc, T2 ammo + 150m/s transversal 300m/s speed Drake is the second most damaging BC past 15km. Most damaging past 25km. As Caldari are the long range race this is very appropriate. Drake still looks great, and looks pretty darn balanced now. Nyxus Originally by: keepiru I cant imagine a stronger signal of how pants 3/4 of new BS are than the fact that Matari will be training Amarr BS and Amarrians will be training Large Projectile to use the same ship
Bardi MecAuldnis Amarr Pirates of Destruction Union Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.18 15:52:00 - [36] The op is right, it's stupid to pigeon-hole the Caldari ships with a single damage type. After all, my Purifier gets to switch....wait, that's an EM bonus....the Malediction...hmm EM bonus again....Heretic.....crap, there's that EM bonus. I know, I'll switch to the Hound....nope, EXP bonus. But still, it would be unfair for the Caldari to get bonus to one damage type. They shouldn't be forced to switch races to get a different damage bonus just because everyone else does. By the way, would anyone care to tell me which ships can outrun missiles besides the Interceptor class? Just in case you wonder, missiles are my primary damage dealers, followed by LASARS!!!! --- Hey hey let's go kenka suru! Taisetsuna mono protect my balls! Boku ga warui so lets fighting! LET'S FIGHTING LOVE!!!
Deathbarrage	Posted - 2006.11.18 16:02:00 - [37] Originally by: Sakura Yoshimitsu Originally by: Siakel The Thermal damage that got changed would have been hugely nerfing their use of any other drones, as they'd lose a huge chunk of DPS from what they had previously, to what they'd have had after the change. So its just okay to do it to Caldari Ship then? Thats the exact same reason I don't like Kinetic damage bonuses because it forces me to use that damage type and makes the others less useful to anyone using that ship. The Caldari's racial weapons are Rails and Missiles. Gallente are Blasters and Drones. We both do Thermal/Kinetic for our guns and drone/missiles do any damage you want provided you loaded the proper drone/ammo. So why is it okay to put Caldari's ability to inflict any damage they want but not okay for the Gallente's Drones? if you keep comparing it to drones... fine That would mean that the missile dmg would have to be changed 450 kinetic torp 400 therm torp 350 explosive torp 300 EM torp then you can have your ''25% bonus to all missiles'' bonus
Lucian Corvinus Gallente Expert Systems	Posted - 2006.11.18 16:07:00 - [38] Originally by: Old Geeza That's 0.11 more points of damage than any large, medium and most small turrets will ever hope to achieve against a ship moving quick. Until you've tried hitting stuff with turrets, keep your opinions to yourself. Yeah, cause every single rookie ship isn't able to passive tank those might 0.11 in damage. That damage IS the equivalent to a miss from a turret. Only difference is that the turret is actually able to wreck that ship with a single lucky shot.
Rafein Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.11.18 16:09:00 - [39] Actually, it is more restrictive to Caldari than anyone else. Take Amarr, for example. All of their weapons do Em and Thermal damage, to varying degrees. If they get a 5%/level damage bonus, it is not just to EM damage, but to Em and Thermal damage. When they change crystals to more thermal damage, they also increase the thermal damage bonus. Currently, Caldari are the only race that gets restricted to receiving a damage bonus to one type of damage. you do not see gallente with a 5%/level hybrid/blaster thermal damage and 10%/level drone thermal damage. You do not see Amarr with 5%/level damage boost for EM laser damage, and you do not see minmatar getting a 5%/level boost to explosive damage.
Old Geeza The Retirement Home	Posted - 2006.11.18 16:10:00 - [40] Originally by: Lucian Corvinus Originally by: Old Geeza That's 0.11 more points of damage than any large, medium and most small turrets will ever hope to achieve against a ship moving quick. Until you've tried hitting stuff with turrets, keep your opinions to yourself. Yeah, cause every single rookie ship isn't able to passive tank those might 0.11 in damage. That damage IS the equivalent to a miss from a turret. Only difference is that the turret is actually able to wreck that ship with a single lucky shot. Wrong. Wrecking shots changed ages ago from being completely random to being based on the tracking formula - if you now have to hit to wreck. _______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues!
Old Geeza The Retirement Home	Posted - 2006.11.18 16:16:00 - [41] Originally by: Rafein Actually, it is more restrictive to Caldari than anyone else. Take Amarr, for example. All of their weapons do Em and Thermal damage, to varying degrees. If they get a 5%/level damage bonus, it is not just to EM damage, but to Em and Thermal damage. When they change crystals to more thermal damage, they also increase the thermal damage bonus. Currently, Caldari are the only race that gets restricted to receiving a damage bonus to one type of damage. you do not see gallente with a 5%/level hybrid/blaster thermal damage and 10%/level drone thermal damage. You do not see Amarr with 5%/level damage boost for EM laser damage, and you do not see minmatar getting a 5%/level boost to explosive damage. Drones have racial damage implemented directly - Thermal > Kinetic > Explosive > EM. Amarr have racial damage implemented in their crystals which are already high-EM Minmatar have racial damage implemented in their primary T1 ammos and all of their T2 ammos (which are high-explosive). For Caldari to recieve a flat 25% damage bonus, missile damage types would have to be changed so Kinetic is as it is now, then followed by Explosive, EM and then Thermal. While you're at it, switch Kinetic and EM drone damage around as Amarr actually have drone bays and some drone ships, where-as Caldari are as about as anti-drone as possible. Drones: Thermal (Gallente, the kings of drones), EM (Amarr, also have drone ships), Explosive (Minmatar, steal other people's technology and make it crap), Kinetic (Caldari, omg you people have drone bays?!?) Missiles: Kinetic (Caldari, we win EVE), Explosive (Minmatar, we have lots of redundant missile points), EM (Amarr, KHANID MK II!!!!), Thermal (Gallente, we only have missile bonuses when Tuxford gets drunk). _______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues!
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.11.18 20:05:00 - [42] People like to say that the Caldari being able to swap damage type is overpowered, yet they fail to realize missile DPs cannot compare to turret DPS. When was the last time you saw a non-capital missile boat do near/over 1k DPS excluding a rage raven with a dedicated huginn support ship? Never. Now what about turret boats? Quite a few, hell Neutron mega could do over 1k DPS before factoring in drones. But wait, those missiles, doing 60% the DPS, are overpowered because they can swap damage types. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Aequitas Veritas TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.18 20:43:00 - [43] Originally by: Old Geeza That's 0.11 more points of damage than any large, medium and most small turrets will ever hope to achieve against a ship moving quick. Until you've tried hitting stuff with turrets, keep your opinions to yourself. Congratulations! You win a newly fitted Caldari Navy Raven for your outstanding participation in this thread! "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.18 21:16:00 - [44] Originally by: Old Geeza That's 0.11 more points of damage than any large, medium and most small turrets will ever hope to achieve against a ship moving quick. If you can't tank (0.11 x 6 = 0.66) points of damage every 10 seconds or so then you're a fairly sorry state. The limit is "Can I outdo the tank?". Missiles can't. Turrets can't. I NEVER tried to imply that turrets were in any way better to missiles. Originally by: Old Geeza Until you've tried hitting stuff with turrets, keep your opinions to yourself. Since when were simple figures an opinion? And I have all the support gunner skills to level 5 (except for two at level 4) and quite often fly an Apoc. As I said, under the conditions given, I NEVER tried to portray that turrets were better...just that missiles suck equally as much. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.11.18 21:26:00 - [45] Originally by: Grey Area And again, using sig radius 135 (assuming they have to use a MWD to get this fast...I don't know, I don't fly one) yeah.... learn your enemy and you will be able to counter him. You think SHOULD be able to take that inty down w/ just your missiles and trained up to lvl 3s or somethin? Do what turret users do, buy a webber/target painter, use webby drones, bring along a tackler etc, etc, etc, etc..... weapons dont kill peole. PILOTS do
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.18 22:26:00 - [46] Originally by: HankMurphy yeah.... learn your enemy and you will be able to counter him. You think SHOULD be able to take that inty down w/ just your missiles and trained up to lvl 3s or somethin? Do what turret users do, buy a webber/target painter, use webby drones, bring along a tackler etc, etc, etc, etc..... weapons dont kill peole. PILOTS do You're very***y for a man who has completely missed the point. First, so you know YOUR opponent, here are my SKILLS Second, THIS is the point I was arguing against; Originally by:** nexvis if you spent more than 3 hours on missile skills, you should be able to hit them (obviously not for full damage, but too bad, nobody wlse hits them for full damage if any at all) There's a lot of store set by "able to hit them". I just wanted to post cold, hard figures about how pathetic those "hits" were. And to correct my earlier error; I decided your advice was sound, so I went out and bought a Gist A-type MWD for my Malediction. I've got not other speed boosting effects on the ship, and only the following speed boosting implants; Slot 7: +3% to velocity Slot 8: +5% to AB and MWD speed boost Slot 10: +3% to AB and MWD speed boost (I don't know if this pays any stacking penalty with the above...can anyone confirm?) When installed and activated I got a sig radius of 188 and a top speed of 5564 m/s Missile damage would be as follows; Rocket 1.48 Standard 0.05 Heavy 0.02 Cruise 0.009 Torp 0.001 I had to go to three decimal places! Now, if you think that spending the ten's of millions on that kit is overkill, I also bought a Tech II MWD and tried it with that Sig Radius 148 top speed 4724 Missile damage would be as follows; Rocket 7.34 Standard 0.81 Heavy 0.51 Cruise 0.19 Torp 0.05 Turrets can't kill interceptors, missiles can't kill interceptors...that was my whole and only point...if you're trying to read anything more into this, you are being overly defensive. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.18 22:34:00 - [47] Edited by: Grey Area on 18/11/2006 22:33:47 Just another point...standard sig radius of my malediction was 24 before turning on the MWD's...I can't see how a modifier of 500% and 661% gave me sig radii of 148 and 188 respectively...can someone show me the math please? --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.11.18 22:36:00 - [48] Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: HankMurphy yeah.... learn your enemy and you will be able to counter him. You think SHOULD be able to take that inty down w/ just your missiles and trained up to lvl 3s or somethin? Do what turret users do, buy a webber/target painter, use webby drones, bring along a tackler etc, etc, etc, etc..... weapons dont kill peole. PILOTS do You're very***y for a man who has completely missed the point. First, so you know YOUR opponent, here are my SKILLS Second, THIS is the point I was arguing against; Originally by:** nexvis if you spent more than 3 hours on missile skills, you should be able to hit them (obviously not for full damage, but too bad, nobody wlse hits them for full damage if any at all) There's a lot of store set by "able to hit them". I just wanted to post cold, hard figures about how pathetic those "hits" were. And to correct my earlier error; I decided your advice was sound, so I went out and bought a Gist A-type MWD for my Malediction. I've got not other speed boosting effects on the ship, and only the following speed boosting implants; Slot 7: +3% to velocity Slot 8: +5% to AB and MWD speed boost Slot 10: +3% to AB and MWD speed boost (I don't know if this pays any stacking penalty with the above...can anyone confirm?) When installed and activated I got a sig radius of 188 and a top speed of 5564 m/s Missile damage would be as follows; Rocket 1.48 Standard 0.05 Heavy 0.02 Cruise 0.009 Torp 0.001 I had to go to three decimal places! Now, if you think that spending the ten's of millions on that kit is overkill, I also bought a Tech II MWD and tried it with that Sig Radius 148 top speed 4724 Missile damage would be as follows; Rocket 7.34 Standard 0.81 Heavy 0.51 Cruise 0.19 Torp 0.05 Turrets can't kill interceptors, missiles can't kill interceptors...that was my whole and only point...if you're trying to read anything more into this, you are being overly defensive. missed the point? hmmm. perhaps i have? sounds like we agree then! missiles dont kill interceptors till ya slow em down or paint em up, like anything else. the link to your skills doesn't work btw (at least not for me). And the speeds those ppl were talking about earlier? yeah, your average run of the mill under 20-30million sp inty tackler will likely be more 2500m/s-4000m/s, anything over that you are spending an awful lot of isk on being a pvp tackler. like that Gist A-type MWD, most actual pvp pilots wont use that, they use a tech II mwd. not to say ppl dont. hell i have a couple intys i have that mod on and i'd be ****ed suprised of some asshat ever landed a hit on me w/o me being dumb enough to let myself get locked down
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.18 22:39:00 - [49] Actually, if I pick up the MAIN point of nexvis's post...he said people complain about Inty's doing 12,000 m/s. I think I've shown that Inty's doing 4500 are enough of a problem anyway. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.18 22:40:00 - [50] Try this link for skills instead - My skills. I'm number 12 in the list...click my name to see the breakdown. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.11.18 22:44:00 - [51] Originally by: Grey Area Try this link for skills instead - My skills. I'm number 12 in the list...click my name to see the breakdown. grrr... yeah you got a couple skill points on me i'm not saying you could take me, but you got nice char sheet (yeah, i am kinda*****y)
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.18 22:46:00 - [52] "take you"? LOL. You can't quite see it in that shot, but my chest is all pink and fluffy and has a rainbow on it... (Carebear) Plus you have one BIG advantage...you've seen my skills...I know DIDDLY about yours... --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.11.18 23:17:00 - [53] Edited by: HankMurphy on 18/11/2006 23:18:20 Originally by: Grey Area Edited by: Grey Area on 18/11/2006 22:50:21 "take you"? LOL. You can't quite see it in that shot, but my chest is all pink and fluffy and has a rainbow on it... (Carebear) Plus you have one BIG advantage...you've seen my skills...I know DIDDLY about yours... EDIT : Stuck a bet mod overdrive on the malediction...rockets now do 0.52 damage, down to torps doing 0.0002...if EVE rounds damage , then that is a ZERO point hit...surely even the staunchest turret user would not count that as a hit? well basically, just shift all your missle skills over to gunnery and your looking at my character. i wan't saying you didn't have any skills, just the earlier comment it *sounded like you knew about as much about inties and MWD's as Martha Stewart knows about power tools. CAREBEAR? w/ all them skills , oh man... come to the darkside luke. and no, that wouldn't register on a turret either. edit to add: man we kinda hijacked this thread, sry OP
Darknar	Posted - 2006.11.18 23:49:00 - [54] every race in eave has at least one ship choice whitch gives them a Racial damage bonus amarr, caldri and minmatar get frigates with missile damage bonus gallente just get a tristen with silly split weapons and turret damage bonus gallent's only ship with a missile damage bonus is the ares, little more use than a T2 shuttle most of the time, increadbly hard to fit and danm worthless to any normal pilot that can fly a taranis caldari already have it good with the missile advantage, what more do they want.. go back to your level 4 missioning caldri, let the big boys with the turrets go PVPing in style.. when i say big boys i mean not me.. never killed anyone in PVP yet.. at the moment i mission and rat to be able to mssion more.. i dont use caldri ships. i rat pure gallente style... (blasters all the way).. im just fed up with caldri whining on about how its unfair that there the best race for PVE in the game and that they should get more for PVP
Merin Ryskin Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.19 00:42:00 - [55] Originally by: Darknar im just fed up with caldri whining on about how its unfair that there the best race for PVE in the game and that they should get more for PVP It's because EVE is a PvP game. The PvE side is just a means to an end for many people. And we're not amused at not being able to fly our own race's ships in PvP. Screw PvE, I would happily trade a little mission-running effectiveness for some good PvP missile boats.
Jake Nicren	Posted - 2006.11.19 00:58:00 - [56] Originally by: Darknar caldari already have it good with the missile advantage, what more do they want.. go back to your level 4 missioning caldri, let the big boys with the turrets go PVPing in style.. That sais it all really, Caldari are just not allowed to compete in PVP
Lucian Corvinus Gallente Expert Systems	Posted - 2006.11.19 01:05:00 - [57] Originally by: Old Geeza Wrong. Wrecking shots changed ages ago from being completely random to being based on the tracking formula - if you now have to hit to wreck. No you are wrong. Eventhough wrecking shot are somewhat based on tracking, that tracking could be 0, and you would wreck that ship. A missile does not care about the transversal speed, but the actual speed of the target. So if the target was at 0 transversal speed that ship could be dead using turrets, but not with missiles.
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.11.19 01:15:00 - [58] Originally by: Lucian Corvinus Originally by: Old Geeza Wrong. Wrecking shots changed ages ago from being completely random to being based on the tracking formula - if you now have to hit to wreck. No you are wrong. Eventhough wrecking shot are somewhat based on tracking, that tracking could be 0, and you would wreck that ship. A missile does not care about the transversal speed, but the actual speed of the target. So if the target was at 0 transversal speed that ship could be dead using turrets, but not with missiles. and your point is? do you actually fly in combat? what all needs to happen for your transversal to be 0? -you flying directly towards or away from a stationary object -neither object is moving -both objects share the same trajectory and speed what the hell kinda situation is this gonna be where suddenly the turrets are hitting and the missiles are not? the POINT is, if missiles are gonna have trouble hitting so are the turrets. go get a tackler or (god forbid) fit your ship so you can hit them. if your just stating obvious, non practical facts about game mechanics thats cool. otherwise hop off the msls suck bandwagon. they have many many advantages to go w/ their disadvantages, just like everything else oh, and LOL at 'caldari cant pvp' guy up there. riiiiiight. keep on whining, everyone is listening
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.11.19 02:58:00 - [59] Edited by: welsh wizard on 19/11/2006 02:59:16 Originally by: Nyxus The kinetic bonus isn't crappy, it's balanced. Drones have different stats, with the same damage bonus. Missiles have the same stats, with differing damage bonus. Net result = pretty much equal and balanced. And for those whining about the Drake. Have you actually run the numbers on the damage? Actual fits for Tier 2 bc, T2 ammo + 150m/s transversal 300m/s speed Drake is the second most damaging BC past 15km. Most damaging past 25km. As Caldari are the long range race this is very appropriate. Drake still looks great, and looks pretty darn balanced now. Nyxus You're missing the point. It's not a gank ship anymore, its just another missile boat which is better suited to shooting NPC's than PC's. I think I can say with some authority that the majority of Caldari pilots are miffed because we were getting a high damage ship for the first time, now our hopes have been dashed. The more observant and reasonable among us accepted that it was stupidly overpowered in its initial format, this should have been rectififed by nerfing its ability to tank not nerfing its damage. The handling of the rebalance is farcial. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
Benglada Finite Horizon The Red Skull	Posted - 2006.11.19 04:20:00 - [60] Edited by: Benglada on 19/11/2006 04:20:16 All damage specific bonus' need to be scrapped ASAP. Edit:Including the ares bonus to thermel missiles. --------------------------- Originally by: Arkanor 0.0 is the Final Frontier. Bring money and friends.

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