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Tier 2 battlecruiser gankers (graph)

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Takahashi Arran Havoc Inc	Posted - 2006.11.03 16:02:00 - [31] some thoughts: 1. drake has a 25m drone bay do by putting in hammerhead 2'd your gimping its dps slightly 2. the hurricane is an insane insane insane ship not that overpowered but definatley a pwn-mobile 3. the drake at this time will never use standard or fury heavy missiles, you'd need to devote 3/4 mids to catching an enemy and staying in range- instead people will load up javelin heavy assaults (100km range for 10%less dps atm- this is where the drake is transformed from underpowered to awsome) and a 2pdu2 2bcu low slot setup and fit an insane tank in the mids (or fit standard heavies and fit a 4 LSE2 tank of uberness and go pwn lv4's in it..) 4. Drake again it remains to be seen what size heavy assault missiles are- at this time on test T1 are 0.6m3 (i.e 25 per launcher and stupid amounts of reloading) and t2 are 0.3m3 (i.e 50 per launcher mush more reasonable 5.Harbringer just needs more PG and then will be awsome 6. myrmidon's dorne bay needs upping to 120m3 and the bonus upping to 15% or 12.5% per level to balance it out.
Scordite	Posted - 2006.11.03 16:05:00 - [32] Originally by: Jim McGregor * Harbinger will hurt if it uses its range advantage. I know its not visible in this chart, but the ship has more than 600 dps at 22500 meters away when switching to Scorch. Ouch. Now factor in resistances. I'm not whining, I think the harbinger is a nice ship. It's just lasers and omnitanks and all that jazz Also, as you are aware of, there are no 25km or 30km warp scramblers unless you're loaded. It shouldn't take faction mods to make tech1 ships competitive. ----------------------------------------------- The only legitimate use of the BLINK tag: Schr÷dinger's cat is [BLINK] not [/BLINK] dead.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 16:07:00 - [33] Originally by: Scordite Originally by: Jim McGregor * Harbinger will hurt if it uses its range advantage. I know its not visible in this chart, but the ship has more than 600 dps at 22500 meters away when switching to Scorch. Ouch. Now factor in resistances. I'm not whining, I think the harbinger is a nice ship. It's just lasers and omnitanks and all that jazz Also, as you are aware of, there are no 25km or 30km warp scramblers unless you're loaded. It shouldn't take faction mods to make tech1 ships competitive. I know about the scrambler range. I tried discussing it with the gallente crowd in the blaster ammo thread I started, but they say nobody ever fights solo so it doesnt matter... Oh well. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.03 16:18:00 - [34] Originally by: Alkeena Posted as a seperate post to ensure Keepiru sees it, as I now believe it a more salient point than the one originally raised: Lol. Originally by: Alkeena Edit: Not to mention I rather like frigates being different from cruisers being different from BS, rather than it simply being fast + agile BS with small guns and fittings, somewhat faster + somewhat more agile BS with med guns and fittings, BS with large guns and fittings. variety is the spice of life, y'know =) Well, I don't believe that keeping cruisers artificially gimped is the way to achieve this. When you look at Amarr/Gallente, why have top-tier cruiser weapons at all, when there isn't a single ship that can fit them? If DPS if the issue, raise fittings so people can fit them then decrease dps of cruiser weapons accross the board. That way you'll have the same DPS as now, except ships will be able to choose between 2-3 cruiser weapons, instead the choice being lowest tier or frigate weapons. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 16:23:00 - [35] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 03/11/2006 16:23:21 Originally by: Takahashi Arran 3. the drake at this time will never use standard or fury heavy missiles, you'd need to devote 3/4 mids to catching an enemy and staying in range- instead people will load up javelin heavy assaults (100km range for 10%less dps atm- this is where the drake is transformed from underpowered to awsome) 385 dps from 0 to 100 km with 2 damage mods... its pretty good. None of the other battlecruisers come close to that range. So yeah, that will probably become pretty popular as gang support. For comparison, the Raven with no damage mods and tech 2 Siege Launchers have 374 dps...this goes to 619 dps with 3 damage mods though. Raven really, really benefits from damage mods, thats for sure... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Roxanna Kell BURN EDEN	Posted - 2006.11.03 16:31:00 - [36] what you need to bear im mind is that missiles only do one damage type at the time, were other races its either 2 or all 4. and if i equip multiple dmg types on each launcher than that dps is reduced significantly. Quote: "Don't touch the RED b
Siakel	Posted - 2006.11.03 16:39:00 - [37] Originally by: Roxanna Kell what you need to bear im mind is that missiles only do one damage type at the time, were other races its either 2 or all 4. and if i equip multiple dmg types on each launcher than that dps is reduced significantly. How? You've got a straight RoF bonus. If anything, your 'limitation' of only one damage type makes it extremely easy for you to exploit enemy resists, should you know them.
Alkeena Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.03 16:42:00 - [38] Originally by: Siakel If anything, your 'limitation' of only one damage type makes it extremely easy for you to exploit enemy resists, should you know them. And spreading your ammo types lets you find that hole even if you dont know them. If it's sufficiently horrendous it may even justify reloading. ~Alkeena
Scordite	Posted - 2006.11.03 16:43:00 - [39] Originally by: Jim McGregor I know about the scrambler range. I tried discussing it with the gallente crowd in the blaster ammo thread I started, but they say nobody ever fights solo so it doesnt matter... I think the issue is that with short range weapons it's gallente->minmatar->amarr for damage, amarr->minmatar->gallente for range and minmatar->gallente->amarr for speed, in concept. In an ideal world where the dps and tanking is properly balanced, not factoring in warp scrambling, minmatar will always win unless they mess up. They're fast enough to keep at a range that makes autocannons do more damage than blasters, and fast enough to deny amarr the use of their range advantage. Currently it doesn't work entirely like that in-game, due to several factors, null being one of them. Point is, it's natural that people are weary of balancing that makes the shortrange weapons and ammo work like they "should". Anyways, I guess this is getting a little off topic ----------------------------------------------- The only legitimate use of the BLINK tag: Schr÷dinger's cat is [BLINK] not [/BLINK] dead.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 17:23:00 - [40] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 03/11/2006 17:23:11 Originally by: Roxanna Kell what you need to bear im mind is that missiles only do one damage type at the time, were other races its either 2 or all 4. and if i equip multiple dmg types on each launcher than that dps is reduced significantly. You say that like its a advantage or something... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.11.03 17:26:00 - [41] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 03/11/2006 16:23:21 Originally by: Takahashi Arran 3. the drake at this time will never use standard or fury heavy missiles, you'd need to devote 3/4 mids to catching an enemy and staying in range- instead people will load up javelin heavy assaults (100km range for 10%less dps atm- this is where the drake is transformed from underpowered to awsome) 385 dps from 0 to 100 km with 2 damage mods... its pretty good. None of the other battlecruisers come close to that range. So yeah, that will probably become pretty popular as gang support. Who cares about range? My cover will put me just in range. Oh, 385 DPS? Two time less, than other BCs? But you are Caldari, it is easy mode! Who cares about such stupid support thing as gang support? Let's Hurricane will be good gang support, but Drake will be damage dealer. So, this new Drake is peace of .* Quote: For comparison, the Raven with no damage mods and tech 2 Siege Launchers have 374 dps...this goes to 619 dps with 3 damage mods though. Raven really, really benefits from damage mods, thats for sure... Yes, Raven suxx too. It was discussed zillions times.
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2006.11.03 17:31:00 - [42] Uhh... the myrmidon does slightly less damage than the brutix for much more versatility. I don't see the issue. - It's great being Minmatar, ain't it?
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 17:33:00 - [43] Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 03/11/2006 16:23:21 Originally by: Takahashi Arran 3. the drake at this time will never use standard or fury heavy missiles, you'd need to devote 3/4 mids to catching an enemy and staying in range- instead people will load up javelin heavy assaults (100km range for 10%less dps atm- this is where the drake is transformed from underpowered to awsome) 385 dps from 0 to 100 km with 2 damage mods... its pretty good. None of the other battlecruisers come close to that range. So yeah, that will probably become pretty popular as gang support. Who cares about range? My cover will put me just in range. Oh, 385 DPS? Two time less, than other BCs? But you are Caldari, it is easy mode! Who cares about such stupid support thing as gang support? Let's Hurricane will be good gang support, but Drake will be damage dealer. So, this new Drake is peace of .* Quote: For comparison, the Raven with no damage mods and tech 2 Siege Launchers have 374 dps...this goes to 619 dps with 3 damage mods though. Raven really, really benefits from damage mods, thats for sure... Yes, Raven suxx too. It was discussed zillions times. A) The dps was in relation to the range. It clearly states it was too. No other battlecruiser has that dps at 100 km. That was what was said. Good for gang support because if you start shooting at someone from 100 km, you know what he does, right? B) Its not 2 times less than any other battlecruiser. Check the graph? C) My character is caldari because they had good starting attributes. I fly minmatar ships. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Scordite	Posted - 2006.11.03 17:44:00 - [44] Originally by: Scordite I think the issue is that with short range weapons it's gallente->minmatar->amarr for damage, amarr->minmatar->gallente for range and minmatar->gallente->amarr for speed, in concept. In an ideal world where the dps and tanking is properly balanced, not factoring in warp scrambling, minmatar will always win unless they mess up. They're fast enough to keep at a range that makes autocannons do more damage than blasters, and fast enough to deny amarr the use of their range advantage. Currently it doesn't work entirely like that in-game, due to several factors, null being one of them. Point is, it's natural that people are weary of balancing that makes the shortrange weapons and ammo work like they "should". Anyways, I guess this is getting a little off topic Forgot to add, the "not factoring in warp scrambling" actually favors amarr (due to needing more than 20km range to have the dps advantage) and gallente (due to 7.5km scrams being more common on blasterboats). Oh, and also, we won't even mention caldari, since range is an entirely different concept for them. ----------------------------------------------- The only legitimate use of the BLINK tag: Schr÷dinger's cat is [BLINK] not [/BLINK] dead.
Hysenthlay Minmatar The Merchant Marines Miners With Attitude	Posted - 2006.11.03 17:44:00 - [45] Originally by: James Lyrus Edited by: James Lyrus on 03/11/2006 13:59:12 Originally by: Rehmes It great to be Matari in Kali Better still, good BC skills are transferrable. I think I need to organise a big 'fly the Hurricanes' party, to fraps and set to the imperial march. Oh, any chance we could have a T1 'cheap git' fit comparison as well? I would fly in that formation... ____________________________ Silflay Hraka U Embleer Rah
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.11.03 17:52:00 - [46] Originally by: Jim McGregor A) The dps was in relation to the range. It clearly states it was too. No other battlecruiser has that dps at 100 km. That was what was said. Good for gang support because if you start shooting at someone from 100 km, you know what he does, right? It seems that you never being involved in PVP. Nobody cares about range seriously. I know enough methods to put me in optimal range and get max damage. For what hell I need to shut enemy from 100 km without any chance to kill them? It is nonsense. We are here to kill enemy, not to scratch enemy fromthe fantstic distance. I will trade three quarters of distance for really good DPS. But we have got laughful DPS again. And sarcasm from tux, guys, you have long-range weapon! Aha, long-range weapon without alfa-strike at all. So we, Caldari are happy... Quote: B) Its not 2 times less than any other battlecruiser. Check the graph? Almost 2 time less? Except Myrmidon? Quote: C) My character is caldari because they had good starting attributes. I fly minmatar ships. I understood. My char is Caldari and I fly Caldari ships. And I am disapointed by absense of Caldari PvP ships.
Blind Man Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.11.03 17:54:00 - [47] Edited by: Blind Man on 03/11/2006 17:56:29 i dont agree with any of this, these ships are tech 1 crappy bc's and are pushing more damage than some(most) bs. It's great flying Amarr, ain't it?
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 17:55:00 - [48] Originally by: Zixxa Aha, long-range weapon without alfa-strike at all. So we, Caldari are happy... Yeah, missiles should have alpha strike... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.03 17:57:00 - [49] Ok. Anyway. Here's another graph. This time, its weapons that can be fit with MWD, Injector, MAR II and 1600 Plate + Nos or HAML II for armor-tankers, and HAML IIs for the drake. A few notes: I don't know how many Hurricane pilots will actually skill up all the way for HAML IIs and actually carry T2 Rage HAMs in their hold. I suspect not many. But since we're talking peak damage w. T2 ammo in a workable setup... The Myrmidon can't fit many nos at all with this setup - it wont be nossing much more than a Harbinger, or a Hurricane that decides to fit Nos instead of a HAML, or a Drake that wants to fit Nos. Basically, its pretty poo =P The Brutix is the only gunship that's fitting lowest-tier weapons, and even so it needs 3(!) T1 Powergrid rigs to fit this setup - does not have the calibration for 2 T2 rigs. Other ships will be fitting +damage, +falloff, +optimal, -mass or other stuff that actually makes more effective in combat... ZE GRAPH! ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.11.03 18:02:00 - [50] Originally by: keepiru Edited by: keepiru on 03/11/2006 18:00:24 Ok. Anyway. Here's another graph. This time, its weapons that can be fit with MWD, Injector, MAR II and 1600 Plate + Nos or HAML II for armor-tankers, and HAML IIs for the drake. A few notes: I don't know how many Hurricane pilots will actually skill up all the way for HAML IIs and actually carry T2 Rage HAMs in their hold. I suspect not many. But since we're talking peak damage w. T2 ammo in a workable setup... The Myrmidon can't fit many nos at all with this setup - it wont be nossing much more than a Harbinger, or a Hurricane that decides to fit Nos instead of a HAML, or a Drake that wants to fit Nos. Basically, its pretty poo =P The Brutix is the only gunship that's fitting lowest-tier weapons, and even so it needs 3(!) T1 Powergrid rigs to fit this setup - does not have the calibration for 2 T2 rigs. Other ships will be fitting +damage, +falloff, +optimal, -mass or other stuff that actually makes more effective in combat... ZE GRAPH! Originally by: Blind Man i dont agree with any of this, these ships are tech 1 crappy bc's and are pushing more damage than some(most) bs. Put 2 damage mods and a full rack of weapons and a full drone bay on a BS and put it in that graph, and see how many BS are outdamaged. While having - with kali setups - 2x the tank and easily 4x the HP. Just one question what is the base damage of the Rage Heavy Assault missiles?
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 18:06:00 - [51] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 03/11/2006 18:08:02 Originally by: keepiru I don't know how many Hurricane pilots will actually skill up all the way for HAML IIs and actually carry T2 Rage HAMs in their hold. I suspect not many. But since we're talking peak damage w. T2 ammo in a workable setup... . In my graph with only guns, Hurricane has even higher dps. So I would say No to HAM. :) Of course I used 425's, but the difference in dps is very slim...I think people will use 220's/180's and fit a bigger tank on it instead. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.03 18:09:00 - [52] Edited by: keepiru on 03/11/2006 18:11:37 Originally by: Zixxa Just one question what is the base damage of the Rage Heavy Assault missiles? 120hp. Originally by: Jim McGregor In my graph with only guns, Hurricane has even higher dps. So I would say No to HAM. :) Of course I used 425's, but the difference in dps is very slim...I think people will use 220's/180's and fit a bigger tank on it instead. If they're smart they will, 220mm IIs = bigger tank, more grid for +falloff, +damage rigs = more range, damage = win. Same with all other race/weapons tbh, Its only going to be very specific setups that fit biggest-tier guns, apart from when sniping. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.03 18:19:00 - [53] Umm. the Myrmidon has 6 highs and 6 turret slots on SISI now - also 6 lows. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 18:22:00 - [54] Originally by: keepiru Umm. the Myrmidon has 6 highs and 6 turret slots on SISI now - also 6 lows. Umm ok... when Kali was deployed to the test server, it had 8 highs, 5 turret slots. And 5 lows. Im not sure if im happy or nervous about the ships still changing. I think more nervous. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.03 18:25:00 - [55] Edited by: keepiru on 03/11/2006 18:26:38 Edited by: keepiru on 03/11/2006 18:25:38 Other stuff: all ammo is smaller, warp to 0km option, cap use from guns still the same, cap booster charges still same size =/ Heavy Assaults are 0.015m3, 1/4 of what they were before. HAML IIs hold 72 missiles now instead of 25 like before. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 18:27:00 - [56] Originally by: keepiru Edited by: keepiru on 03/11/2006 18:26:38 Edited by: keepiru on 03/11/2006 18:25:38 Other stuff: all ammo is smaller, warp to 0km option, cap use from guns still the same, cap booster charges still same size =/ Heavy Assaults are 0.015m3, 1/4 of what they were before. HAML IIs hold 72 missiles now instead of 25 like before. Warp to 0 km option? To gates? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Nicocat Caldari New Age Solutions	Posted - 2006.11.03 18:31:00 - [57] I saw a post that I can't find again, where someone mentioned that BC fittings are still inferior to BS fittings. Well, I would certainly hope so. BC < BS, that's normal. Still, looking at some of the massive punishment some BCs can dish out, I just may take a Hurricane into a fight against a Scorp some day. On the test server with ECCM at the ready, of course =P Also, thanks for the pretty picture, Jim. ---------------------------- Please don't try to troll in your signature -Eldo([email protected]) I tried?
zevex	Posted - 2006.11.03 18:32:00 - [58] The thing that irritates me the most about Caldari pilots and their whining, is that they never mention the fact that their missiles strike their target 100% of the time. Yeah the other ships have a higher dps...assuming that every shot hits the target. But we all know that is not the case. Tracking is a great equalizer.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 18:33:00 - [59] Originally by: Nicocat Also, thanks for the pretty picture, Jim. I killed it because it was incorrect. And since the ships are still changing a lot, lets wait and see how the nerfbat hits them all. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.11.03 18:47:00 - [60] Originally by: zevex The thing that irritates me the most about Caldari pilots and their whining, is that they never mention the fact that their missiles strike their target 100% of the time. Speak about your girl, not about weapon, sonny. Missiles DO NOT HIT target 100%. Quote: Yeah the other ships have a higher dps...assuming that every shot hits the target. But we all know that is not the case. Tracking is a great equalizer. You have only tracking. We have delayed damage(no alfa-strike at all, no fleet battles ofr Caldari warships), we have serious resolution penalty, we have target speed penalty(MWD is tanking against rockets).

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