Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 [13] 14 15 .. 15 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
John A-Clark
Ozark Cartel Usurper.
0
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 09:22:58 -
[361] - Quote
Here is my 2 cents. I have almost 10 million sp (yay almost at my first milestone) and I don't need a boost or want the game to change to make my time easy. I have flown in pvp fleets a handful of times and the only thing that got me killed was my own incompetents. The only reason I dislike loosing a ship is because it shows on my alliance kill board.
|
Doctor Knuckles
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
151
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 09:50:52 -
[362] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Logan Revelore wrote:I don't see a reason to combat risk aversion. If people take themselves out of the fight when something is at stake they lose, and if they won't fight you over your stuff, then you've won anyway.
If it's merely fun fights you want, I guess you need to seek out like minded people. How dare you post simple, undeniable common sense in GD??? As you may have guessed, the problem is that some (many? most?) are not looking for fights, they're looking for easily winnable fights. For the purpose of our analysis, we shall call them Chickens. We shall call the ones that just want fights no matter what Rabid Dogs. Finally, we have the Lions that look for hard but not impossible 'gudfites'. Now: Chickens vs. Chickens --> no fight, both parties are too scared of losing Chickens vs. Lions --> no fight, unless the Lions manage to catch the Chickens Chickens vs. Rabid Dogs --> fight! the dogs will take on anything Lions vs. Lions --> usually fight! space bushido pre-fight arrangements will be made to even out the odds a bit Lions vs. Rabid Dogs --> fight! Rabid Dogs vs. Rabid Dogs --> fight! As you can see, Rabid Dogs would never complain, they just undock and fight. Lions shouldn't complain. As you pointed out, they just need to seek out other Lions or Rabid Dogs. Conclusion: only Chickens complain, not realizing that they are, actually, their own problem.
rabid dog reporting in!
also, remove killboards and a lot of chickens will join the berserker ranks
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6749
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 10:04:21 -
[363] - Quote
Blobbers will blob though.
And "fights" like gatecamps, or just endless sovceptors
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers.
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
4061
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 10:27:05 -
[364] - Quote
John A-Clark wrote:Here is my 2 cents. I have almost 10 million sp (yay almost at my first milestone) and I don't need a boost or want the game to change to make my time easy. I have flown in pvp fleets a handful of times and the only thing that got me killed was my own incompetents. The only reason I dislike loosing a ship is because it shows on my alliance kill board. Mate, your alliance has 67% ship efficiency. Doesn't look like an alliance obsessed with not having some red on their killboard - which is great IMHO (my own alliance has 70% ship efficiency, though ISK efficiency is a bit higher).
Besides, with your SP I suppose you fly and lose cheap stuff anyway.
Stop worrying and go lose stuff, there's no other way to learn and have fun!
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Salvos Rhoska
1226
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 10:56:17 -
[365] - Quote
My own risk aversion behavior stems from not understanding what I am getting into yet.
The less I know about something, the higher the chance of my fking it up. My own lack of knowledge is the single greatest risk factor. So I dont take the risk till Ive got that out of the way first, and that takes research time and thought.
There are whole areas of the game I havent yet tried out just for that reason, but Ill get around to them eventually and am looking forward to it, and am glad there really is so much to do in the EVE universe thatits out there, waiting.
Im not afraid of losing, I just feel like an idiot when it happens simply out of my own ignorance, and that I dont like.
Some other people instead like to jump in head first and learn as they go. Good for them. They have thicker skin and skull against /headdesk than I do.
Im not sure what OP means about ship insurance. Does he mean corp refunds/replacement for ships lost in the line of duty?
The games own native ship insurance system is a bit silly Happened to randomly and idely stumble across an EVE-Uni twitch stream on fleets last night, and the presenter there also quickly jumped over insurance except as to point out to always take the platinum. This system could perhaps due with a bit of rationalizing, as its currently a bit of a vestigal tail with no relevant options except one.
Though ship replacement is typically more expensive, what situationally annoys me more is hunting around for module replacements.
------------
|
Barrogh Habalu
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
1007
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 11:16:25 -
[366] - Quote
Normally I dislike such comments, but I can't help but say: Go play *insert a game about meaningless pew that gets boring after 10 hours tops*.
Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
|
Salvos Rhoska
1226
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 11:32:14 -
[367] - Quote
Barrogh Habalu wrote:Normally I dislike such comments, but I can't help but say: Go play *insert a game about meaningless pew that gets boring after 10 hours tops*.
If Im reading you right, I agree entirely.
I forgot to include it in my previous post, but I also wanted to say how awesome risk is in EVE. Even if like me you spend hours researching before you take the dive, the risk is there.
Risk is something many players dont want to take. But exactly in EVE, YOU CAN take the risk, and have a shot at commensurately larger profits, glory and success.
This is not possible in most other games.
NOT taking risks, is missing out on the excitement EVE has to offer.
Cold sweat, shaking hands, heart palpations followed by either unforgiveable shame or glorious victory.
Goddam.. If you dont feel that from time to time, you are missing out.
EVE offers such moments that, for better or worse, you will remember for the rest of your life.
------------
|
Karl Jerr
Herzack Unit
108
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 12:31:08 -
[368] - Quote
Another "I WANT people play the game the WAY I WANT IT DAMNIT!" thread.
So much for the sandbox. |
Loneball
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 12:49:06 -
[369] - Quote
Delay killreports by 24 hours. |
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
342
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 13:12:12 -
[370] - Quote
Karl Jerr wrote:Another "I WANT people play the game the WAY I WANT IT DAMNIT!" thread.
So much for the sandbox. Thats a certain group of ppl for you.
However: It is always some kind of exchange. More ppl would risk more, if there would be more fun in fights. My own ship blown up? Not so much fun, except the fight was exciting and i really had the chance to win.
Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
|
|
Do Little
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
97
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 13:16:18 -
[371] - Quote
The nice thing about Eve is that it is a sandbox - individual players will compare the perceived risk to the perceived reward and make their choice. CCP can tweak the risks and rewards but they can't change our risk tolerance.
Most of us place a higher value on what we stand to lose than we place on what we stand to gain so we will be reluctant to play a "fair" game (equal chance of winning or losing) for more than trivial stakes.
Good fights will happen when both sides perceive that they have an advantage. Not sure how you engineer that into the game but it is a worthwhile goal. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6749
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 13:19:09 -
[372] - Quote
Do Little wrote:Good fights will happen when both sides perceive that they have an advantage. Not sure how you engineer that into the game but it is a worthwhile goal. time for "remove local"
Also "uncatchable fits"
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers.
|
Loneball
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 13:43:22 -
[373] - Quote
People get caught up in efficiency.
Tunnel Vision. If I can sustain zero loss while only gaining for this long(arbitrary set date) then I'll be able to (pipe dream). People only want 12 steps forward, zero steps back.
Me? I'm fine with 4 steps forward, 3 steps back. I'm still one step closer to where I want to be and those 3 steps back were incredibly enjoyable glorious fireballs of explosion. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
4062
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 13:48:42 -
[374] - Quote
Do Little wrote:Most of us place a higher value on what we stand to lose (PIXELS) than we place on what we stand to gain (using those pixels to have FUN with real people)...
...because we're VERY WEIRD. FTFY
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Do Little
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
98
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 14:52:29 -
[375] - Quote
It's perceived value - not actual. I agree that we should be willing to trade any number of pixels for enjoyment - but most of us don't. We immerse ourselves in the game and think of value in terms of isk rather than having fun. Or we figure that we'll get more utility from our pixels by only picking fights we can win!
|
Loneball
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 15:08:17 -
[376] - Quote
Do Little wrote:It's perceived value - not actual. I agree that we should be willing to trade any number of pixels for enjoyment - but most of us don't. We immerse ourselves in the game and think of value in terms of isk rather than having fun. Or we figure that we'll get more utility from our pixels by only picking fights we can win!
I believe they're planning for the long game. Hoping they can survive in their cocoon until they blossom into beautiful PvP butterflies of death.
It's sad really, how much possibility they let slip by them all because they're scared. Scared of video games. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3197
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 17:29:24 -
[377] - Quote
Nice thread necro....
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Origin. Black Legion.
2407
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 17:40:48 -
[378] - Quote
Well, the concept has been improved with input of a constructive commenter.
Player-sold insurance contracts.
F
Would you like to know more?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3197
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 18:00:40 -
[379] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:Well, the concept has been improved with input of a constructive commenter. Player-sold insurance contracts. F
Now that is a great scam...
By the way...do you know how insurance works?
If a guy came to me wanting "top up" insurance the premium would be...pretty much the amount of ISK he was asking for.
There is no market for car insurance at a demolish derby.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6752
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 18:20:24 -
[380] - Quote
I'd be a bit too risk adverse to pay people money for doing dumb things
Now if they were in our blob and lost a well-fitted thing in a not-dumb situation, well that's SRP so~
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers.
|
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3197
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 18:24:35 -
[381] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:I'd be a bit too risk adverse to pay people money for doing dumb things
Now if they were in our blob and lost a well-fitted thing in a not-dumb situation, well that's SRP so~
Right, but AFAIK, the alliance is not making ISK off of SRP. It is not insurance.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6752
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 18:31:53 -
[382] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:I'd be a bit too risk adverse to pay people money for doing dumb things
Now if they were in our blob and lost a well-fitted thing in a not-dumb situation, well that's SRP so~ Right, but AFAIK, the alliance is not making ISK off of SRP. It is not insurance. it's SRP, so yeah
the point is join a big blob coalition.
probably us, or perhaps join moa??!!
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers.
|
Siegfried Cohenberg
Schlomos Incorporated Shut It Down
110
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 18:51:21 -
[383] - Quote
I counter risk aversion daily by ganking freighters |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3199
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 21:14:07 -
[384] - Quote
Why would a player want to offer insurance to another player in the game? The idea is just stupid. That is why we have not seen the formation of a player driven insurance market.
How are your going to address the issues of moral hazard and adverse selection? In an economy with a legal system and well defined property rights it is feasible, but not easy. Insurance works in such economies because contracts are enforceable--i.e. the government will use it's monopoly on physical and overwhelming force to ensure people comply with the terms of a contract. We don't have that in this game. Sure, you could try to enforce the contract yourself, but you have to put your own assets on the line then, it is a case of good money after bad and the effects are temporary--you can't put another player in the Eve equivalent of jail. You cannot confiscate his assets. You could try to ruin his reputation, but many players seem to revel in that.
As for the idea of having CCP decrease its insurance premiums, no. Just no. Not by itself. There is already enough ISK sloshing around in the game already. Same with having CCP increase the payouts.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Salvos Rhoska
1228
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 22:50:18 -
[385] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Why would a player want to offer insurance to another player in the game? The idea is just stupid. That is why we have not seen the formation of a player driven insurance market.
As for the idea of having CCP decrease its insurance premiums, no. Just no. Not by itself. There is already enough ISK sloshing around in the game already. Same with having CCP increase the payouts.
1) Corps offer ship replacement (ie: player based insurance) because they have a vested interest in those players commiting to the corp's cause. EVE is, in many ways, an environment that breaks the rules of conventional capitalist theory on a number of key concerns. Its quite fascinating and extremely controversial really. Insurance IRL is more often than not simply a matter of expediency and projecting reliability. In EVE, it can at best, translate to actions taken at greater risk for a local and commensurate benefit. When its a player corps backing your risk, they share it. Basically we are talking about a perpetual war economy where the insurer is not interested in fiscal bottomline but rather in aggressive (and necessarily) risky action inorder to facilitate some gain, which almost alwaysresults also in some loss.
2) The CCP insurance system is: A) Platinum. Period. The entire system is irrational. CCPs insurance is not comparable to IRL insurance where premiums are carefully scaled/appreciated against statistical risk. If we want to get proper real, premiums should rise the more ships you lose, because you anyone losing shipw iw obviously a goddam liability. B) A very strange isk fountain. No player will ever make a profit from it, but it inversly results in systemic inflation, as the CCP insuring source basically prints more isk everytime an insured ship explodes. Its a systemic problem. Imagine if IRL everytime an insurance comoany had to pay out, thry could call the local mint to pay print and pay out, for free, more money, just for them, so they can pay it to you. It kills the liability concept entirely, and though the premiums from CCP insurance are small, it adds up in sum total theoughout EVE. Having said that, yes, many players expend isk on ships in insurance without having their ships destroyed, which constitutes an isk sink. I dont know how those numbers add up, but accepting and realizing there is no real reason NOT to insure a shipnwhich you expect to lose (and making a profit vs your insurance investement) Ibthink its reasonable to conclude that insurance leads to more isk created than sunk.
------------
|
Swanky nutjob
Holding Inc.
23
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 23:19:54 -
[386] - Quote
Insurance has nothing to do with it.
Its more to do with the current meta. People will not undock unless they have a chance of winning irrespective of the cost taken in losses and SRP or insurance (which won't cover 10% of your PvP faction battleships).
What Mister Vee said tonight on the meta show alludes to this. The current fleet meta is very cookie cutter - Fozzie and Rise have balanced the game for micro gangs and in doing so screwed up larger fleets. There's 4 or 5 optimal doctrines with hard counters. If you don't have a viable fleet on hand that you know can counter your opponent, at best you run away, at worst you don't even undock. That's been EVE for well over a year and a half now. |
Salvos Rhoska
1228
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 23:53:57 -
[387] - Quote
Swanky nutjob wrote:The current fleet meta is very cookie cutter - Fozzie and Rise have balanced the game for micro gangs and in doing so screwed up larger fleets. There's 4 or 5 optimal doctrines with hard counters. If you don't have a viable fleet on hand that you know can counter your opponent, at best you run away, at worst you don't even undock. That's been EVE for well over a year and a half now.
CCPs direction seems to be towards small fleets (or smaller, in any case), and simultaneous engagements across several systems. This direction is a necessary choice in terms of smaller powers having opportunity to engage much larger powers. Lets not kid ourselves. The impetus for change is provide opportunity and means to divide the blue doughnuts. The balance of mechanics is too stable in favor of the powers that be.
This is, to my viewing and understanding, introducing guerilla warfare, asymmetric warfare and atleast an opportunity for divide and conquer.
I cant speak to optimal doctrine fleets, but rhe whole idea is antithetical anyways to EVE, and circumstantial. As soon as there ie an optimal fleet for all opposition, there is inevitably and inherently also indication of ship imbalance. I understand your cookie cutter argument, but there is also the underlying EVE rule of scissor-rock-paper.
As to the reality of EVE being fleets running away or refusing to undock for a year and a half now, lets be real here why that is. Its because it would be suicide not to do so against any concerted effort from existing power blocs, and even less reason to field those fleets against them.
In current situation, fleet composition matters little against the sheer volume powers that be can field.
------------
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3202
|
Posted - 2015.08.09 00:35:55 -
[388] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
TLDR: -CCP insurance is systemic inflation. -CCP insurance is irrational, because even if you explode your ship 1000 times, they still pay you more than you paid them. -Player based insurance is motivated and out of their own pocket. They cant print the money, but they can decide who they pay out to, how much and under which circumstances.
SRP is not insurance.
No player will offer insurance in the game. Here is the thing, insurance increases risk taking, Feyd has that right. Problem is that the person issuing the insurance does not want that. That is a sure fire way to go broke. This is the moral hazard problem. This is why insurance has a deductible and insurance coverage is not complete.
Also, you have to remember that insurance is based on probabilities and more than 1 person. You cannot have a functioning insurance market with 1 person. When there is a large number of people in the market then you can appeal to things like the law of large numbers. That is if the bad state occurs with probability p, with enough people you'll have the bad event pretty much p*N where N is the number of people and N is suitably large.
In a complete and competitive insurance market where information is perfect (two giant mother freaking assumptions by the way that not only don't hold in real life, they do not hold in the game either) then the premium for an insurance contract is going to be p*L where L is the loss that is incurred.
To put some hard numbers on this, if the probability of ship loss is 10% and the loss is 100 million ISK, the premium for ship insurance would be 10,000,000 ISK. If we had 10,000 people then the premiums collected would be 100,000,000,000 ISK. And the payouts for ship losses would be...100,000,000,000 ISK. The insurance company will make a profit off of the fact that not everyone will lose their ships immediately all at the same time...i.e., they'll have time to invest it and earn positive rate of return.
Problem is that now those guys who have bought insurance they have less incentive to "fly safe". After all, if they lose their ship they'll collect the insurance and go buy another one and they are out only 10,000,000 ISK. Great right? Not if you are trying to run an insurance company in game. If this leads to ships being lost 20% then you'll end up having to shell out 200,000,000,000 ISK. You are ****ed. Or you can not pay out the claims and pocket the 100 billion ISK. And there is nothing anybody can do about it.
And if you wanted to account for these problems you'd need some actuaries, and also some adjusters. You'd need to look over kill mails, look at the fits, etc. and deny or approve claims. And the actuaries will have to grind through the data to come up with the premiums and so forth. And you'd have to simply deny insurance to the PvPers. They will lose their ships with a very high probability and insurance does not work when the probabilities of large losses gets too high. This is why people who have pre-exiting medical conditions have such a hard time getting health insurance. In this case the probability of getting sick is trivial, 1. In this case the premium should be set equal to the medical costs. Any premium lower than that means the insurance is basically a subsidy/wealth transfer. PvP pilots basically have a pre-existing condition, they love to go into situations where ships, sometimes theirs, go boom.
Bottom line is that anyone would be an idiot to pay a premium to an in-game insurance scheme. Anyone would be an idiot to start one (unless they are planning on absconding with all the money). There is, literally, zero ability to enforce these kinds of contracts in game. The only entity in game that can do this is CCP because...surprise they can print money instantly and effortlessly. It is very much like all of the Eve banks that in the end turned out to be scams where somebody walks off with a large pile of ISK collected from suckers. And even if one were to give it a go, it wouldn't do what everyone seems to think it would do...it would only be offered to mission runners and people doing stuff where the probability of ship loss is minimal.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
11
|
Posted - 2015.08.09 00:52:04 -
[389] - Quote
Undocking to a guaranteed loss is a stupidly bad move. Undocking to a probable loss is a bad move unless there's an opportunity for serious win.
The big alliances have stabilized and blueballed because they don't want to lose a ludicrous amount of very shiny, expensive things. Unless something comes along to change the balance of power (mole), that's not going to change. This isn't the only persistent space PvP game I've seen this happen in. People join big groups for the force multiplier effect and for safety. If the group is to survive for very long, it will err on the side of caution and not pick fights it doesn't know it can win. If it bites off more than it can chew, it loses people because of the hassle of putting everything back together or whatever.
Making everything more vulnerable to loss will mean smaller, weaker groups - the groups which can't defend their stuff may as well just pack up. I've seen the homogenization of power in another one of these games (nobody wants to fight the goons there, either), and "smaller, weaker" groups only survive very long because they actually are part of the bigger ones for some reason or another, or they just get suspected of being part of that other power bloc and replaced so the other big scary group doesn't have the ability to project power from there when there actually is a fight.
If you want less blobbing, put in mechanics which inhibit it. If you don't want hotdropping to be the iwin button, make a nasty cyno inhibitor device which can wreck something cynoing in. The possibility of losing a capship to save a small cruiser fleet would make cap-blobbing whatever's about to kill it not an iwin button. The reason "just blob it" works is simple: there is no small-fleet counter to the tactic besides running away. The possibility of losing a single insert-expensive-ship-here to such a device would make the risk-averse "pvp" crowd think very hard before just blobbing to wreck something really trivial, especially those killboard-score-worshipping types.
A signature :o
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6756
|
Posted - 2015.08.09 02:25:17 -
[390] - Quote
Shallanna Yassavi wrote:The big alliances have stabilized and blueballed because they don't want to lose a ludicrous amount of very shiny, expensive things. Unless something comes along to change the balance of power (mole), that's not going to change. Easy, just nerf all the things related to having sov, and make it really easy to troll (ie: fiendishly painful to hold)
eg: make it so anyone can attack sov with say a really fast interdiction nullified frigate or something, can't get much easier than that
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 [13] 14 15 .. 15 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |