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Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Origin. Black Legion.
2194
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Posted - 2015.04.30 14:12:54 -
[1] - Quote
I would like to have a constructive dialog around what can be done to combat risk-aversion in our pvp pilots in New Eden. What I observe is that we regularly decry risk-aversion and others unwillingness to undock and bring a fight, while on the other hand refusing to confront the elephant in the room when it comes to root cause...
Ship replacement insurance.
Please consider this, and provide constructive feedback.
F
Would you like to know more?
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Jenshae Chiroptera
1426
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Posted - 2015.04.30 14:14:39 -
[2] - Quote
Not click your blog, thanks.
As to risk aversion, I think new players should start in a Null Sec system with a SISI market for 12 hours.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
.
High Sec needs a stepping stone to other areas of space, where they can grow
Fozzie is treating a symptom.
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Syrilian
Ascending Angels
73
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Posted - 2015.04.30 14:17:24 -
[3] - Quote
The problem with the "risk aversion" argument is that everyone has a different opinion of what that means. Some people think a person is risk averse when they dont have a death wish. |
Mario Putzo
1322
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Posted - 2015.04.30 14:17:42 -
[4] - Quote
Didn't your last thread get locked?
Ship insurance is fine, it is not why people don't engage in PVP. Fun fact some folks just don't want to PVP.
IBTL. |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Warp to Cyno.
4415
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Posted - 2015.04.30 14:18:56 -
[5] - Quote
eveo says your link might be hackers or malware :( this blogspot website sounds insidious
if only you'd posted what you had to say here instead of there |
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Origin. Black Legion.
2194
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Posted - 2015.04.30 14:23:03 -
[6] - Quote
Syrilian wrote:The problem with the "risk aversion" argument is that everyone has a different opinion of what that means. Some people think a person is risk averse when they dont have a death wish. I think its pretty clear as a generalization. Risk aversion when it comes to pvp in EvE is how someone generally (or doesn't) take a fight, when said fight is not assured victory ahead of time.
Its that point where you might win, or you might lose, but you decide to stay docked rather than give it a go.
Hope that helps.
Would you like to know more?
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Ma'Baker McCandless
The McCandless Clan
89
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Posted - 2015.04.30 14:25:17 -
[7] - Quote
Sorry, Im not following what the problem is.
Care to elaborate as to WHY people not wanting to fight is a problem? |
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Origin. Black Legion.
2194
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 14:26:16 -
[8] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:
Ship insurance is fine, it is not why people don't engage in PVP. Fun fact some folks just don't want to PVP.
Wrong. As described in the post, Brave Newbies didn't undock with 250+ friendlies in system and only 15 enemy dudes on their undock for 3 hours, until they had an FC who could authorize SRP come on and give a thumbs up.
I am also specifically talking to those that DO pvp, that within that sub-community there is angst over risk aversion, yet no one confronts the root cause.
F
Would you like to know more?
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Mario Putzo
1322
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Posted - 2015.04.30 14:43:34 -
[9] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
Ship insurance is fine, it is not why people don't engage in PVP. Fun fact some folks just don't want to PVP.
Wrong. As described in the post, Brave Newbies didn't undock with 250+ friendlies in system and only 15 enemy dudes on their undock for 3 hours, until they had an FC who could authorize SRP come on and give a thumbs up. I am also specifically talking to those that DO pvp, that within that sub-community there is angst over risk aversion, yet no one confronts the root cause. F
Which varies wildly depending on your organization.
Remember when a group of Super Carriers and a Revenant showed up to help a guy, but it was a Black Legion set up, and they all got dunked and Garth raged over comes, stating "Every single one of the dumb motherfuckers should be booted from alliance" Or the KB must be green folks (of which many many exist) who purge active players for losing their ****?
Or the "We either Blue Ball them, or Hyperdunk them" schtick from the CFC when BL. and NC. were pushing buttons in Fountain just recently?
There are LOTS of reasons people do not engage in PVP.
As someone who does like to PVP, the largest reason I do not, I live in HS and can't be assed to fly dozens of jumps to look for fights, so I don't very often. Now if CCP made PVP more available in HS, and didn't hide it behind a wall of War Decs, or make Ganking the only form of "PVP" in HS elsewise, more people might grow into being more active in PVP.
As it stands Ship Insurance is like bottom of the barrel stuff. SRP is the problem here, not ship insurance. Which to me sounds like Alliance incomes need to be brought way down, so they can't have SRP programs, as it creates an illusion of dependency. |
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
335
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Posted - 2015.04.30 14:44:01 -
[10] - Quote
If ship insurance was realistic, it would be based on how many ships you personally lost and "claimed" on. Insurance companies make money.
In eve insurance is magic pixe money. I don't even bother insuring my ships most of the time. And making the game like every other MMO out there where death has no sting at all is just SOOO boring. If that is what you want. Play on the test server.
Death and Glory!
Well fun is also good.
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Remiel Pollard
Against All Odds. Absolute Defiance
6578
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Posted - 2015.04.30 14:44:50 -
[11] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:I would like to have a constructive dialog around what can be done to combat risk-aversion in our pvp pilots in New Eden. What I observe is that we regularly decry risk-aversion and others unwillingness to undock and bring a fight, while on the other hand refusing to confront the elephant in the room when it comes to root cause... Ship replacement insurance. Please consider this, and provide constructive feedback. F
When someone says there's an elephant in the room, I expect to see an elephant.
PICS OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN!
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Otso Bakarti
Aliastra Gallente Federation
126
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Posted - 2015.04.30 15:03:40 -
[12] - Quote
The way to counter risk aversion is to make everyone as stupid as the people who have convinced themselves they are not risk averse. In a way, this vapid culture of ours is doing it incrementally over time. However, another way of saying "risk averse" is "dumb as a rock."
I love how these mental giants come along and rewrite the history of humankind to suit their rather discombobulated ego trips.
"Countering Risk Aversion" - at first that seems so knowledgeable. Then, just looking at the National Enquirer you get the same sort of confident proclamations: I Married An Alien, How To Lose 500 Pounds In One Day (yeah, divorce your wife.)
Keep 'em comin' though. We love to hear from the peanut gallery.
I survived Win95
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Louise Beethoven
Hedion University Amarr Empire
150
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Posted - 2015.04.30 15:05:29 -
[13] - Quote
Why do you keep spamming your blog |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
9560
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Posted - 2015.04.30 15:07:01 -
[14] - Quote
Otso Bakarti wrote:The way to counter risk aversion is to make everyone as stupid as the people who have convinced themselves they are not risk averse. In a way, this vapid culture of ours is doing it incrementally over time. However, another way of saying "risk averse" is "dumb as a rock."
I love how these mental giants come along and rewrite the history of humankind to suit their rather discombobulated ego trips.
"Countering Risk Aversion" - at first that seems so knowledgeable. Then, just looking at the National Enquirer you get the same sort of confident proclamations: I Married An Alien, How To Lose 500 Pounds In One Day (yeah, divorce your wife.)
Keep 'em comin' though. We love to hear from the peanut gallery. npc forum alts dont get to use plural.
post with your main if your going to put words in anyone's mouth
Lords.Of.Midnight now recruiting
Steamy hot small gang action is waiting for you.
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1758
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Posted - 2015.04.30 15:09:07 -
[15] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:I would like to have a constructive dialog around what can be done to combat risk-aversion in our pvp pilots in New Eden. What I observe is that we regularly decry risk-aversion and others unwillingness to undock and bring a fight, while on the other hand refusing to confront the elephant in the room when it comes to root cause... Ship replacement insurance. Please consider this, and provide constructive feedback. F When someone says there's an elephant in the room, I expect to see an elephant. PICS OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN!
This one was about to go on a roam of many many systems jump where PvP happens at the risk of losing his ship when THIS happened. Turns out he was more interested in that than potentially losing his ship for unknown results. |
Aralyn Cormallen
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
1027
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Posted - 2015.04.30 15:10:10 -
[16] - Quote
The problem is, you should never be happy to lose your ship, and cranking the protection too far can create silly situations where people suicide ships rather than spend half an hour gating them back home. Yes, I imagine some people take it too far, but I also imagine that at the fringe, its less a case of not wanting to lose a ship, its not wanting to lose. Undocking in to a 100% certain defeat is pointless and not fun for anyone, regardless of what cost or not is involved. In other games I have seen people go afk waiting for a battleground to finish because they were being mercilessly farmed, and there was no fun in being fodder for some sugared-up circle jumper - there was no cost to their losses, but they still elected not to fight because it had stopped being fun to do so.
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote: Wrong. As described in the post, Brave Newbies didn't undock with 250+ friendlies in system and only 15 enemy dudes on their undock for 3 hours, until they had an FC who could authorize SRP come on and give a thumbs up.
I am also specifically talking to those that DO pvp, that within that sub-community there is angst over risk aversion, yet no one confronts the root cause.
Your example is of lower-skilled newbies not wanting to undock without an FC in to a high-skilled fleet with a talented FC in a tightly specialised comp. It had nothing to do with SRP, they just didn't want to get mown down by a clearly superior fighting force. There is no coincidence here that your alliance flys bubble immune sniper T3's instead of a slow-moving or brawling set-up, its because you don't want to lose ships either.
Everyone is to blame for this. People who lose want to stop losing. So they evolve their strategy to combat that. Tighter comps, rules of engagement to cut down on pointless welps, forming larger organisations and stronger ties to allies. Each time one side gets their ass repeatedly handed to them, they either collapse and are absorbed by stronger groups, or go away, review their tactics and doctrines, and come back tougher, so the other side in turn has to do the same. I'm not sure there is a cure to it, because the guy who steps back in the arms race is the guy who gets farmed, and has no fun doing so. |
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
22584
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Posted - 2015.04.30 15:11:48 -
[17] - Quote
This reminds me of politicians.
Taking a superficial part of the problem ... ... declaring it the problem ... ... thus having superficial discussions ... ... bringing up at best superficial solutions which do not touch the actual problem ... ... and then wondering why it doesn't help.
Superficial thinking leads to superficial discussions and superficial solutions.
Good luck anyhow.
Oh and, tbh, you know what else?
This is carebearlogic.
Congratulations.
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Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Origin. Black Legion.
2195
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 15:15:19 -
[18] - Quote
Aralyn Cormallen wrote: ... Your example is of lower-skilled newbies not wanting to undock without an FC in to a high-skilled fleet with a talented FC in a tightly specialised comp. It had nothing to do with SRP, they just didn't want to get mown down by a clearly superior fighting force. ...
Strange...That's not what the two Brave Newbies that were so disgusted with their brethren told us, when they joined our fleet and comms and raged about how their buds were so risk adverse and unwilling to fight until they had SRP confirmed first.... :)
Hell, one of our richer dudes even offered to do the SRP for them... lolzors.
Would you like to know more?
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1041
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Posted - 2015.04.30 15:16:39 -
[19] - Quote
Someone should write a followup titled, "Countering misunderstandings about preferences, and how they work."
You're trying to "fix" a preference, which simply does not work. Go find someone who doesn't like cilantro and try to logic-and-reason them into thinking cilantro is amazing stuff.
When you realize where you've erred, come back and delete your post.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Jenshae Chiroptera
1427
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Posted - 2015.04.30 15:25:54 -
[20] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote: I am also specifically talking to those that DO pvp, that within that sub-community there is angst over risk aversion, yet no one confronts the root cause. F It is not ISK. I could take a gang of T1 frigates and destroyers out every night and personally SRP all of them. I could get them to undock to fight every tourist that comes our way.
I do not find that type of gang fun enough to do more than in a blue moon.
I go about making ISK, join a few fleet but really keep my eye out for CTAs and Strat Ops. Other than that I avoid PVP, it is too much hassle when it doesn't matter.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
.
High Sec needs a stepping stone to other areas of space, where they can grow
Fozzie is treating a symptom.
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Aralyn Cormallen
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
1027
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Posted - 2015.04.30 15:30:06 -
[21] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:Aralyn Cormallen wrote: ... Your example is of lower-skilled newbies not wanting to undock without an FC in to a high-skilled fleet with a talented FC in a tightly specialised comp. It had nothing to do with SRP, they just didn't want to get mown down by a clearly superior fighting force. ...
Strange...That's not what the two Brave Newbies that were so disgusted with their brethren told us, when they joined our fleet and comms and raged about how their buds were so risk adverse and unwilling to fight until they had SRP confirmed first.... :) Hell, one of our richer dudes even offered to do the SRP for them... lolzors.
Meh, I'd take that with a pinch of salt, there is always a couple of vocal guys in large organisations that whine about isk. I would still bet the reason you didn't get 200 braves charging you was they were there thinking "Who do we anchor on?", "Who do we shoot?", "Where do we align?", "What ship do I bring?". You have to remember their organisation is very different to yours, and even to mine (though there are likely more similarities between us and them). To them it was like a couple of hundred peasants being herded in to a pit with 5 lions. Sure, they have the numbers, but the lions know their ****, and the peasants have no idea whose running their show, so its going to get real bloody, real quick.
Me wrote: Everyone is to blame for this. People who lose want to stop losing. So they evolve their strategy to combat that. Tighter comps, rules of engagement to cut down on pointless welps, forming larger organisations and stronger ties to allies. Each time one side gets their ass repeatedly handed to them, they either collapse and are absorbed by stronger groups, or go away, review their tactics and doctrines, and come back tougher, so the other side in turn has to do the same. I'm not sure there is a cure to it, because the guy who steps back in the arms race is the guy who gets farmed, and has no fun doing so.
To go further on this, when I first entered nullsec, my Alliance (WIdot, best dot) had two doctrines, kitchen sink Battleships, and kitchen sink long-range Battlecruisers. Yeah . A year later, flying alongside Goonswarm, I was getting gently mocked for flying my Rokh (the same one that was completely welcome in the mostly-armour kitchen sink BS fleets of a year earlier) in Alphafleets (where at least both my Rokh and the Maelstroms were long-range shield-tankers). The game had moved on, and it has kept doing so, because people found they kept losing, so did what they could to stop that.
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Vipre Morte
Team JK
104
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Posted - 2015.04.30 15:31:21 -
[22] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Not clicking your blog, thanks.
As to risk aversion, I think new players should start in a Null Sec system with a SISI market for 12 hours. Then get transfered to the main server.
Would you say you were risk averse to clicking the blog link? |
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Origin. Black Legion.
2195
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Posted - 2015.04.30 15:35:06 -
[23] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: I could take a gang of T1 frigates and destroyers out every night and personally SRP all of them. I could get them to undock to fight every tourist that comes our way.
I do not find that type of gang fun enough to do more than in a blue moon.
Why T1 frigates? Why not *good* ships?
What would happen though if people could consistently field good ships and dank fits, with the knowledge they had a good SRP mechanism in place...everyone, any ship -- not just big alliances or doctrines ships or sanctioned fights?
Would fights and the availability of them increase or decrease?
These are questions worth asking, and worth exploring -- especially when as described in the post other games have captured a way to make 'COME AT ME BRO!' more of a frequent reality.
F
Would you like to know more?
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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3341
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 15:38:43 -
[24] - Quote
Per Red sanders: "Winning isn't everything, winning is the only thing."
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1760
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Posted - 2015.04.30 15:43:09 -
[25] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: I could take a gang of T1 frigates and destroyers out every night and personally SRP all of them. I could get them to undock to fight every tourist that comes our way.
I do not find that type of gang fun enough to do more than in a blue moon.
Why T1 frigates? Why not *good* ships? What would happen though if people could consistently field good ships and dank fits, with the knowledge they had a good SRP mechanism in place...everyone, any ship -- not just big alliances or doctrines ships or sanctioned fights? Would fights and the availability of them increase or decrease? These are questions worth asking, and worth exploring -- especially when as described in the post other games have captured a way to make 'COME AT ME BRO!' more of a frequent reality. F
What if he is "blueballing" because he has no idea what he's doing? What if he's just really confident he can't win and as such, it's not even worth the effort to try? What if it's just a boneheaded move to go in for various reasons?
People get called risk averse in this game because they don't aimlessly throw their **** into firefights or other harm's way.
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Otso Bakarti
Aliastra Gallente Federation
126
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Posted - 2015.04.30 15:47:24 -
[26] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Otso Bakarti wrote:The way to counter risk aversion is to make everyone as stupid as the people who have convinced themselves they are not risk averse. In a way, this vapid culture of ours is doing it incrementally over time. However, another way of saying "risk averse" is "dumb as a rock."
I love how these mental giants come along and rewrite the history of humankind to suit their rather discombobulated ego trips.
"Countering Risk Aversion" - at first that seems so knowledgeable. Then, just looking at the National Enquirer you get the same sort of confident proclamations: I Married An Alien, How To Lose 500 Pounds In One Day (yeah, divorce your wife.)
Keep 'em comin' though. We love to hear from the peanut gallery. npc forum alts dont get to use plural. post with your main if your going to put words in anyone's mouth Oh dear, if it isn't mister blindingly repetitive with no content. I'm still waiting for you to explain the paramount wisdom of being like YOU. Is that one too hard for you to explain WE'RE just DYING to hear that one.
By the way, mister tremulous insight, this is my main whether YOU like it, or not....and the horse you rode in on.
I survived Win95
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
5557
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Posted - 2015.04.30 15:48:58 -
[27] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:Why T1 frigates? Why not *good* ships?
What would happen though if people could consistently field good ships and dank fits, with the knowledge they had a good SRP mechanism in place...everyone, any ship -- not just big alliances or doctrines ships or sanctioned fights?
Would fights and the availability of them increase or decrease? Fights might increase but the meaning behind them and the entire game economy would significantly decrease. At the end of the day, if you're replacing 95% of the value of the ship it may as well be an arena game, since clearly the focus would be on shooting each other over all other mechanics. But that's not all EVE is about.
Elite is a little different because the scale of the game and difficulty in locating specific groups of players makes it far less likely to have specific encounters, where in EVE people would be constantly having non-stop battles. The main difference is that in EVE you are a capsuleer, and you are expected to do enormous things, whereas in Elite you are an insignificant spec in the vastness of space.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Origin. Black Legion.
2195
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Posted - 2015.04.30 15:56:10 -
[28] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:[ .. What if he is "blueballing" because he has no idea what he's doing? What if he's just really confident he can't win and as such, it's not even worth the effort to try? What if it's just a boneheaded move to go in for various reasons?
People get called risk averse in this game because they don't aimlessly throw their **** into firefights or other harm's way.
Without going to the extreme of assuming acts of seppuku in a no-win scenario, what if we could influence however the median of most fight-or-flight analysis in a combat pilots head, which happens constantly outside your scenario....
What if the average PVP pilot had dank insurance behind him so that when he wasn't sure of victory or loss, and debating whether to fight or not, he was empowered to say 'I'm going in, because I can get a refit without a lot of ISK pain if I do lose..'.
Further, what if they were empowered to also say "I am bringing a GOOD ship as well and enjoying the fight more, rather than bring just a cheap risk-averting T1"...
Ponder the beautiful carnage of often-never-undocked T2's or Faction Battleships jumping into glorious space battles more often, flown by pilots that aren't ISK-risk yet now feel empowered to take and give a good fight (because they aren't flying crap), and the light-bulb should go on.
F
Would you like to know more?
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Aralyn Cormallen
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
1027
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Posted - 2015.04.30 15:56:14 -
[29] - Quote
And I definitely want to hammer the "No FC" part. Sure, a thousand angry unco-ordinated bees can leave a dent, but it can't be underestimated the value of a good FC. A good FC against a bad can alone turn an otherwise insurmountable fight, and the difference between a bad FC and no FC at all is likewise a cliff of difference, especially if you are dealing with a group that doesn't emphasise individual talent and initiative. Feyd, you have to realise you have done a ton of solo and 2-3man pvp for years, so even without an FC on hand, you'd still be pretty clued in on what you need to do, these guys you were trying to fight have likely never manually piloted, or got a solo kill that wasn't a cyno ship. Thats a gulf of difference.
As an example, I was in a fleet last week that interdicted a capital move op. There was 40 of us in Tornadoes and Taloses, yet we were able to gut a dozen Carriers and Dreads before we were all killed or driven off. The battle report showed they had twice as many capitals as we had ships, and that doesn't include the ones that fled when we jumped them. And this wasn't a carebear or renter group, it was a well-known, pvp organisation that are known for engaging in capital combat, so it wasn't like they were out of their comfort zone. We shouldn't have been able to get a single kill, let alone as many as we did, but caught with their pants down, and an FC who was either phoning it in, or just straight not in system, they were butchered in the confusion. |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1760
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Posted - 2015.04.30 16:11:20 -
[30] - Quote
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:And I definitely want to hammer the "No FC" part. Sure, a thousand angry unco-ordinated bees can leave a dent, but it can't be underestimated the value of a good FC. A good FC against a bad can alone turn an otherwise insurmountable fight, and the difference between a bad FC and no FC at all is likewise a cliff of difference, especially if you are dealing with a group that doesn't emphasise individual talent and initiative. Feyd, you have to realise you have done a ton of solo and 2-3man pvp for years, so even without an FC on hand, you'd still be pretty clued in on what you need to do, these guys you were trying to fight have likely never manually piloted, or got a solo kill that wasn't a cyno ship. Thats a gulf of difference.
As an example, I was in a fleet last week that interdicted a capital move op. There was 40 of us in Tornadoes and Taloses, yet we were able to gut a dozen Carriers and Dreads (and even had one of the enemy eject, lawl) before we were all killed or driven off (and we hit them in lowsec, so no bubbles). The battle report showed they had twice as many capitals as we had ships, and that doesn't include the ones that fled when we jumped them. And this wasn't a carebear or renter group, it was a well-known, pvp organisation that are known for engaging in capital combat, so it wasn't like they were out of their comfort zone. We shouldn't have been able to get a single kill, let alone as many as we did, but caught with their pants down, and an FC who was either phoning it in, or just straight not in system, they were butchered in the confusion.
Remmeber when BL. got "revenant"? What was the reason Grath was so damn mad? Oh yeah, nobody spoke up...
But having an FC is not critically important according to some people... |
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