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SiDRaN
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Posted - 2006.11.05 18:47:00 -
[1]
Edited by: SiDRaN on 05/11/2006 19:00:21 Since Warp to 0 km will turn this game into an arcade game, you'd better release it for it's intended target: kids.
And to all those carebear whinners you should know that this change will affect you either.... DRASTICALLY.
You think that, finally i can travel safely around eve with way less chance to be killed. I will now be able to safely deliver my loot and/or minerals and sell it. That will rock.
But what you do not see is the big picture. A big slice of PvP-ing will be removed. 30%-40%-50% (i dont know the exact number and that is not the issue) of eve kills are done on ships approaching the gate. That will be no more and that will mean: less ships needed for PvP as less ships gets destroyed, less modules and less demand for your carebear aquired modules.
Warp to 0 will generate a snowball effect. Not only Pvp-ing will be creeppled but also industry, mining and even mission running.
PS: I thought the problem with instas is, mainly, that they generate a game mechanic that was never inteded (near imunity travel).Now you are actually giving this imunity to all players ?? BM related lag problem should be address in a different manner. Dont do the same mistake Sony did with SWG when they turn it into a mortal kombat like game just to satisfy some carebear whines. Dond make the same mistake as i like this game and i dont want to die.
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Bambi
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.11.05 18:53:00 -
[2]
Interdictor sales will go up anyway....
Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit; Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.
EVE-Log
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mallina
Caldari DeStInY.
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Posted - 2006.11.05 19:02:00 -
[3]
I dont think it should be a requirement to have an Interdictor with you in order to have any real chance of catching targets at all.
Personally, im with the OP all the way ----------- Turbulance |
Queen Hades
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Posted - 2006.11.05 19:07:00 -
[4]
This change will give new players a better start into Eve. I like and appreciate it.
The bullies ("pirates") may think so but they are not the only people playing Eve.
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petergriffen
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2006.11.05 19:17:00 -
[5]
The issue is that CCP doesn't want to remove a game mechanic that's already there; bookmarks. If they removed bookmarks and the ability to insta-warp there would be a bigger backlash than adding the "Warp to 0km" feature. It's an unintentional loophole put into the game that's too late for CCP to do away with now, the same as jet-can mining. The effects on the player base would be too great.
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mallina
Caldari DeStInY.
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Posted - 2006.11.05 19:28:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Queen Hades This change will give new players a better start into Eve. I like and appreciate it.
The bullies ("pirates") may think so but they are not the only people playing Eve.
so what, pretend the pirates dont exist and not even consider them when making the change?
whatever happened to compromise ?
Make warp to 0km and remove instas, or keep warp to 15km and remove instas? One of them is 100% in favour of one type of player, another is 100% in favour of the other. One will screw other one type of player, another will screw over the other... whatever happened to 50/50 ? something thats fair for BOTH types of players ----------- Turbulance |
Ginhna
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Posted - 2006.11.05 19:50:00 -
[7]
This will make using Bubble all the more importan. It will also make placement in the right place more so. This will add more to the game.
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Buzzmong
Gallente Raptus Regaliter Process of Elimination
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Posted - 2006.11.05 20:18:00 -
[8]
honestly, warp to 0 doesnt really affect anyone who spends a fair bit of time in 0.0, EVERYONE who intends to spend a decent amount of time there will have an insta set.
So, you'll still have gate camps, just more bubbles will be used, maybe bubble generators.
It'll only affect empire really as most people dont have full insta sets in empire.
--------------------------------- Member of Raptus Regaliter
Contact Nautilus Industries in the channel "Naut Shipyard" for T1 Ship manufacture in the Gallente core systems. |
Ominus Decre
The Older Gamers Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.05 20:36:00 -
[9]
I fail to see how teh "warp to 0" has any dire effect upon the game.
Worst case I assume there's lamer pirates who don't want to work for their booty and would rather just sit and camp locations without having an equal opportunity for their victims.
On the other hand:
I would much rather have a skill which gradually reduces your "warp to" range down to -0- as you advacned it. Maybe at level 1 it's 15k, lvl 2 @ 10k, lvl 3 @ 5k and lvl 4 at 0m. Give something tide to "exploration:" to the advanced skill set which would encourage players to leanr lvl 5 of the "warp to 0' skill.
Perversion: |
Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.11.05 20:38:00 -
[10]
So people who sit aligned at gates can't snipe anyone that doesn't have instas...
Should I feel bad about this?
PVP won't suffer, you'll still have fleet fights, roaming gangs, belt piracy...etc.
Now you just have to be faster to kill when gatesniping. If you can't pop a shuttle or indy before it warps away or jumps, oh well, learn to pk.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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themule
Caldari Insane Decision
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Posted - 2006.11.05 20:43:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Ominus Decre I would much rather have a skill which gradually reduces your "warp to" range down to -0- as you advacned it. Maybe at level 1 it's 15k, lvl 2 @ 10k, lvl 3 @ 5k and lvl 4 at 0m. Give something tide to "exploration:" to the advanced skill set which would encourage players to leanr lvl 5 of the "warp to 0' skill.
No skills for this! It will just become a skill that everyone has to train to lvl 5 no matter what path they take.
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Segmentor
Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.05 21:26:00 -
[12]
Personally, i think this should be implemented as a rig. Like one rig increases the warp accuracy by half (7.5 km off gate), and 2 make you warp to 0m. If a player really wants to travel safely, he will sacrifice 2 of his rig slots, and i doubt indys have more than that.
Now what will prevent players making instas and using them once again? Add inabillity to make bookmarks within ~150 km range of a gate or station. Like too much electronic interfearance or something.
Remember, Bubbles and Dictors arent working in systems above 0.0, and instas were never supported by game mechanics. You could not make the autopilot use instas as its guidance, plus copying large amounts of bookmarks was allways laggy, slow, and simply a pain in the arse. Something like this will remove the BM lag and keep the pvp at gate approaches, while still enabling those who REALLY want to get past that gate to do so, but for a reasonable price (wastage of rig slots+rig penalty of some sort). ---
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Quilan Ziller
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Posted - 2006.11.05 22:20:00 -
[13]
Warp to 0 is a fantastic addition to the game, and should be incorporated as is. Fact: instas have to go because of the lag issues, and because everyone is using them anyway. Fact: if no viable "warp to 0" solution is introduced instead of instas, a lot of people will whine Fact: those who will whine will be in the right - with no "warp to 0" option, gate camps become extremely overpowered - especially in low sec empire Really... Nobody have said that you should be able to sit on the gate and gank everyone with impunity. Gate camps will still be possible, but with warp stab nerf, and "warp to 0" some *player skill* will actually be needed from pirates-to-be other than the ability to hit F1-F4. For the record: I am not "anti-pirate", I hunt miners and ratters in belts...
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Rells
Caldari Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.11.05 22:29:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Rells on 05/11/2006 22:30:06
Originally by: SiDRaN You think that, finally i can travel safely around eve with way less chance to be killed. I will now be able to safely deliver my loot and/or minerals and sell it. That will rock.
Until you run into an interdictor or mobile warp disruptor. Anchoring 3 and Propulsion jamming 3 will ruin your day fast.
Originally by: SiDRaN But what you do not see is the big picture. A big slice of PvP-ing will be removed. 30%-40%-50% (i dont know the exact number and that is not the issue) of eve kills are done on ships approaching the gate. That will be no more and that will mean: less ships needed for PvP as less ships gets destroyed, less modules and less demand for your carebear aquired modules.
Not even close. The only combat that happens on entry to a gate is when a person hits an interdictor bubble (or mobile warp disruptor) or they are autopiloting in lowsec and get shot by some sniping pirate using his interceptor alt to collect the loot. Every expereinced PvP pilot uses instas when flying in 0.0 and lowsec and I knwo that I have 15 thousand and I am not alone by far.
The vast majority of pvp happens on exit of a gate via an interdictor bubble or a fast locking scrambling ship.
You should have to ACTIVELY work to stop people, not be able to sit lazy from 200km sniping. But then to be clear Im sure I recognized your name somwehere ... ahh yes ... SiDRaN ... -4.1 pirate specializing in said sniping, alt loot collecting ganking ..
Well now we at least know where YOU are comming from.
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Xasz
G.H.O.S.T
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Posted - 2006.11.05 22:45:00 -
[15]
Quote:
I would much rather have a skill which gradually reduces your "warp to" range down to -0- as you advacned it. Maybe at level 1 it's 15k, lvl 2 @ 10k, lvl 3 @ 5k and lvl 4 at 0m. Give something tide to "exploration:" to the advanced skill set which would encourage players to leanr lvl 5 of the "warp to 0' skill.
QFT tbh.
G.H.O.S.T is recruiting new pilots! |
Gamesguy
Amarr Reunited O X I D E
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Posted - 2006.11.05 22:47:00 -
[16]
It does nerf low sec piracy against people who slowboat to the gate(and there are plenty). For example it is nearly impossible for me to catch nanoed cruiser warping off from a jump in(we use a plated rax for gate tackling). But the same cruiser is much easier to catch on warp in.
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St Dragon
Blood Association of Dragons
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Posted - 2006.11.05 22:47:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Rells Edited by: Rells on 05/11/2006 22:30:06
Originally by: SiDRaN You think that, finally i can travel safely around eve with way less chance to be killed. I will now be able to safely deliver my loot and/or minerals and sell it. That will rock.
Until you run into an interdictor or mobile warp disruptor. Anchoring 3 and Propulsion jamming 3 will ruin your day fast.
Originally by: SiDRaN But what you do not see is the big picture. A big slice of PvP-ing will be removed. 30%-40%-50% (i dont know the exact number and that is not the issue) of eve kills are done on ships approaching the gate. That will be no more and that will mean: less ships needed for PvP as less ships gets destroyed, less modules and less demand for your carebear aquired modules.
Not even close. The only combat that happens on entry to a gate is when a person hits an interdictor bubble (or mobile warp disruptor) or they are autopiloting in lowsec and get shot by some sniping pirate using his interceptor alt to collect the loot. Every expereinced PvP pilot uses instas when flying in 0.0 and lowsec and I knwo that I have 15 thousand and I am not alone by far.
The vast majority of pvp happens on exit of a gate via an interdictor bubble or a fast locking scrambling ship.
You should have to ACTIVELY work to stop people, not be able to sit lazy from 200km sniping. But then to be clear Im sure I recognized your name somwehere ... ahh yes ... SiDRaN ... -4.1 pirate specializing in said sniping, alt loot collecting ganking ..
Well now we at least know where YOU are comming from.
200KM by the sounds of it. -----------------------------------------------
"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Jean Rostand |
Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.05 22:48:00 -
[18]
Learn to catch people on the other side of the gate. It ain't that hard.
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Mr Ninjaface
Minmatar Shurekin INC
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Posted - 2006.11.05 22:54:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Xasz
Quote:
I would much rather have a skill which gradually reduces your "warp to" range down to -0- as you advacned it. Maybe at level 1 it's 15k, lvl 2 @ 10k, lvl 3 @ 5k and lvl 4 at 0m. Give something tide to "exploration:" to the advanced skill set which would encourage players to leanr lvl 5 of the "warp to 0' skill.
QFT tbh.
ya thats what the game needs more mandatory time sink skills
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Gamesguy
Amarr Reunited O X I D E
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Posted - 2006.11.05 23:10:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Risien Drogonne Learn to catch people on the other side of the gate. It ain't that hard.
Learn to read. I'd like to see a tackling setup that can tank sentries for a reasonable amount of time, can fit a mwd, and can lock and put more than 1 point on target in less than 4-5 seconds against say a cruiser.
And please, no hacs.
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Taaketa Frist
The Praxis Initiative Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.05 23:30:00 -
[21]
Pirates exist in EVE? --------------
Dang nabit |
Mtthias Clemi
Gallente Momentum.
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Posted - 2006.11.05 23:50:00 -
[22]
i still think bubbles should be able to pull people out mid warp.. that would be cool... off topic.. but i dont care
My sig was nerfed.. im not happy -Mtt I hate mods |
Dahin
Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.11.06 00:03:00 -
[23]
Has this been verified by ANY official or semi-official (ISD?) sources? This could just be a helping hand for travelling in the testserver.
The autopilot still warps you @15, so that indicates that this might be temporary.
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canned
Caldari Quam Singulari Industry
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Posted - 2006.11.06 00:23:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Ominus Decre I fail to see how teh "warp to 0" has any dire effect upon the game.
Worst case I assume there's lamer pirates who don't want to work for their booty and would rather just sit and camp locations without having an equal opportunity for their victims.
On the other hand:
I would much rather have a skill which gradually reduces your "warp to" range down to -0- as you advacned it. Maybe at level 1 it's 15k, lvl 2 @ 10k, lvl 3 @ 5k and lvl 4 at 0m. Give something tide to "exploration:" to the advanced skill set which would encourage players to leanr lvl 5 of the "warp to 0' skill.
Its not gonna be possible to gate camp in low sec in minmatar space. Maybe you havnt seen the size of the gates but they are huge! around if u get right on the gate and someone warps to within 15km of it....they are 40+kms away from ya....tell me how u are gonna catch anything on those gates? --------------- i dont really know what to put here so ill just type this |
Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.06 01:02:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Gamesguy
Originally by: Risien Drogonne Learn to catch people on the other side of the gate. It ain't that hard.
Learn to read. I'd like to see a tackling setup that can tank sentries for a reasonable amount of time, can fit a mwd, and can lock and put more than 1 point on target in less than 4-5 seconds against say a cruiser.
And please, no hacs.
Hey, guess what? You don't have to tank the sentries until you start shooting.
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Rasputin Jones
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Posted - 2006.11.06 01:17:00 -
[26]
/me sniffles, as a single tear rolls down from my wistful eye to my cheek
1) There's no guarantee it will be implemented on TQ;
2) A lot of people don't like being ganked at gatecamps, so a whole shartload of people will need to learn to play fair (and let's not get pedantic over what the definition of "fair" in this game is);
3) I played UO (one of the games Eve is based on, due to it's supreme PvPing) for almost five years as a 7x PvP GM. We didn't call jumping someone 5v1 PvP, we called it lame. PvP should be between one person and another, or two v two etc... IMHO, the less gangbanging that goes on the better and anything that is done to cripple gangbangings is also a good thing.
4) You can still jump people in 'roid belts, shoot them from 163km+ outside of stations, use interdictors to catch them between gates, declare war on randoms... The possibilities are endless.
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.06 01:18:00 -
[27]
Originally by: SiDRaN Edited by: SiDRaN on 05/11/2006 19:00:21 Since Warp to 0 km will turn this game into an arcade game, you'd better release it for it's intended target: kids.
And to all those carebear whinners you should know that this change will affect you either.... DRASTICALLY.
You think that, finally i can travel safely around eve with way less chance to be killed. I will now be able to safely deliver my loot and/or minerals and sell it. That will rock.
But what you do not see is the big picture. A big slice of PvP-ing will be removed. 30%-40%-50% (i dont know the exact number and that is not the issue) of eve kills are done on ships approaching the gate. That will be no more and that will mean: less ships needed for PvP as less ships gets destroyed, less modules and less demand for your carebear aquired modules.
Warp to 0 will generate a snowball effect. Not only Pvp-ing will be creeppled but also industry, mining and even mission running.
i fail to see the problem, you speak of the big picture and of a snowball effect but don't say how it will happen...
for how i see it the only change is that instead to have tons of instans (that affect lag and db usage) you have the option to warp to 0
this difference will affect only noobs that have not instans, making for them easier to get into the game... of course you will not be able to snipe anymore such noobs in 0.4 but i don't see it as a huge drawback...
on the opposite the DB space and lag saved by this change can improve the gameplay for almost everyone
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Kye Kenshin
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.11.06 01:25:00 -
[28]
Sitting aligned, stabbed 200km of a gate sniping shuttles and hauler pilots who should know better Is an arcade game for kids.
You know I've managed to kill people on the jump-in under sentry fire. Yes I know that sounds like effort but then that's how it should be.
This change will only help get more people into low-sec which actually means more targets for pirates.
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Ruze
No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2006.11.06 02:01:00 -
[29]
Alright, all the anti-griefers have said anything I could say, in much more angry tones. Now to play devil's advocate.
- Gate Camping is not simply a griefer, pirate tactic. As it stands, it's also the only way to secure your space in 0.0 and low-sec. The fact that it's also the easiest route for lazy pirates is just a poor mark on a real life tactic called 'bottlenecking.'
- Camping the recieving end of a gate is often considered an exploit, because even with the auto-cloak, players can still be hit with heavy lag and caught unable to fight back. Much more rare nowdays, but still happens.
- Without interdictor bubbles, camping gates is completely inconsistent in low-sec. With the HP boost and the adjustment to tanking, most every ship will have enough resistance to hold off an attack.
- Chases, one of the major events of true pirates, are even more nulified, as now players may warp to the security of a jump by going straight for 0km, vice 15km.
It is very easy to argue for something you feel strongly about. It's harder to actually try to see the other end of the argument. While warping to 0km will help me, I'll use it, it makes it easier on me when I don't have those insta's for that odd gate, it's still not a sound idea.
5km? Sounds more reasonable. Still some flight time, no invulnerability, but not 15km of painful BS crawling (or worse, freighter).
Insta's are not an intended game mechanic. They are a crutch that we all have grown to rely on. As much as I hate pirating, especially sitting on the end of a gank, I don't think this is the best solution. Nor do I support skills or the map, as they increase server load.
Finally, remember that it's testing. Easiest way to avoid server lag is to simply take out the crutch for a bit and let players play the hard way. Will it make TQ? Doubt it, but I do hope for the 5km option over this 'warp to 0.'
Genesis Project |
Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.06 02:33:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Ruze Alright, all the anti-griefers have said anything I could say, in much more angry tones. Now to play devil's advocate.
- Gate Camping is not simply a griefer, pirate tactic. As it stands, it's also the only way to secure your space in 0.0 and low-sec. The fact that it's also the easiest route for lazy pirates is just a poor mark on a real life tactic called 'bottlenecking.'
bubbles can still be used to secure alliance space, in 0.0 every decent gate camp have a couple of bubble, the warp to 0 will not change anything about it
Originally by: Ruze
- Without interdictor bubbles, camping gates is completely inconsistent in low-sec. With the HP boost and the adjustment to tanking, most every ship will have enough resistance to hold off an attack.
but also warp to 0 is not adding anything new, every decent player that plan to travel heavily in a low sec area will get instas, the real difference is that he will not ask them to one of his guildmates or, at worst, will not spend a couple of mil to purchase them
also this will make dictors and bubble skills more usefull than now, making them usefull for more playstyles than now
Originally by: Ruze
- Chases, one of the major events of true pirates, are even more nulified, as now players may warp to the security of a jump by going straight for 0km, vice 15km.
even here we are speaking not of all players but just by the ones that have not instans (generally noobs)
is not that with this option people will be able to do things impossible to do before, the difference is that instead to have a (common) ingame object not designed for this purpose (and that require a lot of resources) devs have introduced a mechanic that lead to same results whitout using all these resources
Originally by: Ruze
Finally, remember that it's testing. Easiest way to avoid server lag is to simply take out the crutch for a bit and let players play the hard way. Will it make TQ? Doubt it, but I do hope for the 5km option over this 'warp to 0.'
actually i don't like instans cause they allowed a game too safe, if you see i'm pro warp to 0 but against instans... it sound a bit strange...
the problem here is that instans have become a common "game tool", and at this point there is no way to eliminate them...
the dev problem is that totally removing instans will make the game way slower than now, one of the big "flaws" of eve is indeed traveling that is quite boring and a huge timesink...
for this reason devs can't simply remove instans, if they could they had alredy done that a long time ago, instead they introduced bubbles to partially preserve the danger of traveling whitout making the travel slower or more boring.
the problem here is not to allow noobs to travel safer in low sec, but that instans are using too many resources and the only way to preserve the actual gameplay (keeping bookmarks and not making travel slower) is to implement the warp to 0 (manual) option
as to make it on TQ, i'm almost certain that it will make it, the problem here is quite big and there are not other viable solutions, on test forum there was a very long discussion about possible solutions and this was the only good one.
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