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SiDRaN
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Posted - 2006.11.05 18:47:00 -
[1]
Edited by: SiDRaN on 05/11/2006 19:00:21
Since Warp to 0 km will turn this game into an arcade game, you'd better release it for it's intended target: kids.
And to all those carebear whinners you should know that this change will affect you either.... DRASTICALLY.
You think that, finally i can travel safely around eve with way less chance to be killed. I will now be able to safely deliver my loot and/or minerals and sell it. That will rock.
But what you do not see is the big picture. A big slice of PvP-ing will be removed. 30%-40%-50% (i dont know the exact number and that is not the issue) of eve kills are done on ships approaching the gate. That will be no more and that will mean: less ships needed for PvP as less ships gets destroyed, less modules and less demand for your carebear aquired modules.
Warp to 0 will generate a snowball effect. Not only Pvp-ing will be creeppled but also industry, mining and even mission running.
PS: I thought the problem with instas is, mainly, that they generate a game mechanic that was never inteded (near imunity travel).Now you are actually giving this imunity to all players ?? BM related lag problem should be address in a different manner. Dont do the same mistake Sony did with SWG when they turn it into a mortal kombat like game just to satisfy some carebear whines. Dond make the same mistake as i like this game and i dont want to die.
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Bambi
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.11.05 18:53:00 -
[2]
Interdictor sales will go up anyway....
Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit; Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.
EVE-Log
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mallina
Caldari
DeStInY.
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Posted - 2006.11.05 19:02:00 -
[3]
I dont think it should be a requirement to have an Interdictor with you in order to have any real chance of catching targets at all.
Personally, im with the OP all the way
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Turbulance |
Queen Hades
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Posted - 2006.11.05 19:07:00 -
[4]
This change will give new players a better start into Eve. I like and appreciate it.
The bullies ("pirates") may think so but they are not the only people playing Eve.
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petergriffen
Amarr
Viziam
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Posted - 2006.11.05 19:17:00 -
[5]
The issue is that CCP doesn't want to remove a game mechanic that's already there; bookmarks. If they removed bookmarks and the ability to insta-warp there would be a bigger backlash than adding the "Warp to 0km" feature. It's an unintentional loophole put into the game that's too late for CCP to do away with now, the same as jet-can mining. The effects on the player base would be too great.
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mallina
Caldari
DeStInY.
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Posted - 2006.11.05 19:28:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: Queen Hades
This change will give new players a better start into Eve. I like and appreciate it.
The bullies ("pirates") may think so but they are not the only people playing Eve.
so what, pretend the pirates dont exist and not even consider them when making the change?
whatever happened to compromise ?
Make warp to 0km and remove instas, or keep warp to 15km and remove instas? One of them is 100% in favour of one type of player, another is 100% in favour of the other. One will screw other one type of player, another will screw over the other...
whatever happened to 50/50 ? something thats fair for BOTH types of players
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Turbulance |
Ginhna
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Posted - 2006.11.05 19:50:00 -
[7]
This will make using Bubble all the more importan.
It will also make placement in the right place more so.
This will add more to the game.
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Buzzmong
Gallente
Raptus Regaliter
Process of Elimination
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Posted - 2006.11.05 20:18:00 -
[8]
honestly, warp to 0 doesnt really affect anyone who spends a fair bit of time in 0.0, EVERYONE who intends to spend a decent amount of time there will have an insta set.
So, you'll still have gate camps, just more bubbles will be used, maybe bubble generators.
It'll only affect empire really as most people dont have full insta sets in empire.
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Member of Raptus Regaliter
Contact Nautilus Industries in the channel "Naut Shipyard" for T1 Ship manufacture in the Gallente core systems. |
Ominus Decre
The Older Gamers
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.05 20:36:00 -
[9]
I fail to see how teh "warp to 0" has any dire effect upon the game.
Worst case I assume there's lamer pirates who don't want to work for their booty and would rather just sit and camp locations without having an equal opportunity for their victims.
On the other hand:
I would much rather have a skill which gradually reduces your "warp to" range down to -0- as you advacned it. Maybe at level 1 it's 15k, lvl 2 @ 10k, lvl 3 @ 5k and lvl 4 at 0m. Give something tide to "exploration:" to the advanced skill set which would encourage players to leanr lvl 5 of the "warp to 0' skill.
Perversion:  |
Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.11.05 20:38:00 -
[10]
So people who sit aligned at gates can't snipe anyone that doesn't have instas...
Should I feel bad about this?
PVP won't suffer, you'll still have fleet fights, roaming gangs, belt piracy...etc.
Now you just have to be faster to kill when gatesniping. If you can't pop a shuttle or indy before it warps away or jumps, oh well, learn to pk.
Originally by: kieron
The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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themule
Caldari
Insane Decision
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Posted - 2006.11.05 20:43:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Ominus Decre
I would much rather have a skill which gradually reduces your "warp to" range down to -0- as you advacned it. Maybe at level 1 it's 15k, lvl 2 @ 10k, lvl 3 @ 5k and lvl 4 at 0m. Give something tide to "exploration:" to the advanced skill set which would encourage players to leanr lvl 5 of the "warp to 0' skill.
No skills for this! It will just become a skill that everyone has to train to lvl 5 no matter what path they take.
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Segmentor
Hunters Agency
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.05 21:26:00 -
[12]
Personally, i think this should be implemented as a rig. Like one rig increases the warp accuracy by half (7.5 km off gate), and 2 make you warp to 0m. If a player really wants to travel safely, he will sacrifice 2 of his rig slots, and i doubt indys have more than that.
Now what will prevent players making instas and using them once again? Add inabillity to make bookmarks within ~150 km range of a gate or station. Like too much electronic interfearance or something.
Remember, Bubbles and Dictors arent working in systems above 0.0, and instas were never supported by game mechanics. You could not make the autopilot use instas as its guidance, plus copying large amounts of bookmarks was allways laggy, slow, and simply a pain in the arse. Something like this will remove the BM lag and keep the pvp at gate approaches, while still enabling those who REALLY want to get past that gate to do so, but for a reasonable price (wastage of rig slots+rig penalty of some sort).
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Quilan Ziller
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Posted - 2006.11.05 22:20:00 -
[13]
Warp to 0 is a fantastic addition to the game, and should be incorporated as is.
Fact: instas have to go because of the lag issues, and because everyone is using them anyway.
Fact: if no viable "warp to 0" solution is introduced instead of instas, a lot of people will whine
Fact: those who will whine will be in the right - with no "warp to 0" option, gate camps become
extremely overpowered - especially in low sec empire
Really... Nobody have said that you should be able to sit on the gate and gank everyone with
impunity. Gate camps will still be possible, but with warp stab nerf, and "warp to 0" some
*player skill* will actually be needed from pirates-to-be other than the ability to hit F1-F4.
For the record: I am not "anti-pirate", I hunt miners and ratters in belts...
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Rells
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.11.05 22:29:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Rells on 05/11/2006 22:30:06
Originally by: SiDRaN
You think that, finally i can travel safely around eve with way less chance to be killed. I will now be able to safely deliver my loot and/or minerals and sell it. That will rock.
Until you run into an interdictor or mobile warp disruptor. Anchoring 3 and Propulsion jamming 3 will ruin your day fast.
Originally by: SiDRaN
But what you do not see is the big picture. A big slice of PvP-ing will be removed. 30%-40%-50% (i dont know the exact number and that is not the issue) of eve kills are done on ships approaching the gate. That will be no more and that will mean: less ships needed for PvP as less ships gets destroyed, less modules and less demand for your carebear aquired modules.
Not even close. The only combat that happens on entry to a gate is when a person hits an interdictor bubble (or mobile warp disruptor) or they are autopiloting in lowsec and get shot by some sniping pirate using his interceptor alt to collect the loot. Every expereinced PvP pilot uses instas when flying in 0.0 and lowsec and I knwo that I have 15 thousand and I am not alone by far.
The vast majority of pvp happens on exit of a gate via an interdictor bubble or a fast locking scrambling ship.
You should have to ACTIVELY work to stop people, not be able to sit lazy from 200km sniping. But then to be clear Im sure I recognized your name somwehere ... ahh yes ... SiDRaN ... -4.1 pirate specializing in said sniping, alt loot collecting ganking ..
Well now we at least know where YOU are comming from.
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Xasz
G.H.O.S.T
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Posted - 2006.11.05 22:45:00 -
[15]
Quote:
I would much rather have a skill which gradually reduces your "warp to" range down to -0- as you advacned it. Maybe at level 1 it's 15k, lvl 2 @ 10k, lvl 3 @ 5k and lvl 4 at 0m. Give something tide to "exploration:" to the advanced skill set which would encourage players to leanr lvl 5 of the "warp to 0' skill.
QFT tbh.
G.H.O.S.T is recruiting new pilots! |
Gamesguy
Amarr
Reunited
O X I D E
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Posted - 2006.11.05 22:47:00 -
[16]
It does nerf low sec piracy against people who slowboat to the gate(and there are plenty). For example it is nearly impossible for me to catch nanoed cruiser warping off from a jump in(we use a plated rax for gate tackling). But the same cruiser is much easier to catch on warp in.
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St Dragon
Blood Association of Dragons
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Posted - 2006.11.05 22:47:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Rells
Edited by: Rells on 05/11/2006 22:30:06
Originally by: SiDRaN
You think that, finally i can travel safely around eve with way less chance to be killed. I will now be able to safely deliver my loot and/or minerals and sell it. That will rock.
Until you run into an interdictor or mobile warp disruptor. Anchoring 3 and Propulsion jamming 3 will ruin your day fast.
Originally by: SiDRaN
But what you do not see is the big picture. A big slice of PvP-ing will be removed. 30%-40%-50% (i dont know the exact number and that is not the issue) of eve kills are done on ships approaching the gate. That will be no more and that will mean: less ships needed for PvP as less ships gets destroyed, less modules and less demand for your carebear aquired modules.
Not even close. The only combat that happens on entry to a gate is when a person hits an interdictor bubble (or mobile warp disruptor) or they are autopiloting in lowsec and get shot by some sniping pirate using his interceptor alt to collect the loot. Every expereinced PvP pilot uses instas when flying in 0.0 and lowsec and I knwo that I have 15 thousand and I am not alone by far.
The vast majority of pvp happens on exit of a gate via an interdictor bubble or a fast locking scrambling ship.
You should have to ACTIVELY work to stop people, not be able to sit lazy from 200km sniping. But then to be clear Im sure I recognized your name somwehere ... ahh yes ... SiDRaN ... -4.1 pirate specializing in said sniping, alt loot collecting ganking ..
Well now we at least know where YOU are comming from.
200KM by the sounds of it.
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"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god."
-- Jean Rostand |
Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.05 22:48:00 -
[18]
Learn to catch people on the other side of the gate. It ain't that hard.
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Mr Ninjaface
Minmatar
Shurekin INC
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Posted - 2006.11.05 22:54:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Xasz
Quote:
I would much rather have a skill which gradually reduces your "warp to" range down to -0- as you advacned it. Maybe at level 1 it's 15k, lvl 2 @ 10k, lvl 3 @ 5k and lvl 4 at 0m. Give something tide to "exploration:" to the advanced skill set which would encourage players to leanr lvl 5 of the "warp to 0' skill.
QFT tbh.
ya thats what the game needs more mandatory time sink skills 
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Gamesguy
Amarr
Reunited
O X I D E
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Posted - 2006.11.05 23:10:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Learn to catch people on the other side of the gate. It ain't that hard.
Learn to read. I'd like to see a tackling setup that can tank sentries for a reasonable amount of time, can fit a mwd, and can lock and put more than 1 point on target in less than 4-5 seconds against say a cruiser.
And please, no hacs.
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Taaketa Frist
The Praxis Initiative
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.05 23:30:00 -
[21]
Pirates exist in EVE? 
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Dang nabit |
Mtthias Clemi
Gallente
Momentum.
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Posted - 2006.11.05 23:50:00 -
[22]
i still think bubbles should be able to pull people out mid warp.. that would be cool... off topic.. but i dont care
My sig was nerfed.. im not happy -Mtt
I hate mods |
Dahin
Maza Nostra
Euphoria Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.11.06 00:03:00 -
[23]
Has this been verified by ANY official or semi-official (ISD?) sources?
This could just be a helping hand for travelling in the testserver.
The autopilot still warps you @15, so that indicates that this might be temporary.
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canned
Caldari
Quam Singulari Industry
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Posted - 2006.11.06 00:23:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Ominus Decre
I fail to see how teh "warp to 0" has any dire effect upon the game.
Worst case I assume there's lamer pirates who don't want to work for their booty and would rather just sit and camp locations without having an equal opportunity for their victims.
On the other hand:
I would much rather have a skill which gradually reduces your "warp to" range down to -0- as you advacned it. Maybe at level 1 it's 15k, lvl 2 @ 10k, lvl 3 @ 5k and lvl 4 at 0m. Give something tide to "exploration:" to the advanced skill set which would encourage players to leanr lvl 5 of the "warp to 0' skill.
Its not gonna be possible to gate camp in low sec in minmatar space. Maybe you havnt seen the size of the gates but they are huge! around if u get right on the gate and someone warps to within 15km of it....they are 40+kms away from ya....tell me how u are gonna catch anything on those gates?
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i dont really know what to put here so ill just type this
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.06 01:02:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Gamesguy
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Learn to catch people on the other side of the gate. It ain't that hard.
Learn to read. I'd like to see a tackling setup that can tank sentries for a reasonable amount of time, can fit a mwd, and can lock and put more than 1 point on target in less than 4-5 seconds against say a cruiser.
And please, no hacs.
Hey, guess what? You don't have to tank the sentries until you start shooting.
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Rasputin Jones
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Posted - 2006.11.06 01:17:00 -
[26]
/me sniffles, as a single tear rolls down from my wistful eye to my cheek
1) There's no guarantee it will be implemented on TQ;
2) A lot of people don't like being ganked at gatecamps, so a whole shartload of people will need to learn to play fair (and let's not get pedantic over what the definition of "fair" in this game is);
3) I played UO (one of the games Eve is based on, due to it's supreme PvPing) for almost five years as a 7x PvP GM. We didn't call jumping someone 5v1 PvP, we called it lame. PvP should be between one person and another, or two v two etc... IMHO, the less gangbanging that goes on the better and anything that is done to cripple gangbangings is also a good thing.
4) You can still jump people in 'roid belts, shoot them from 163km+ outside of stations, use interdictors to catch them between gates, declare war on randoms... The possibilities are endless.
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.06 01:18:00 -
[27]
Originally by: SiDRaN
Edited by: SiDRaN on 05/11/2006 19:00:21
Since Warp to 0 km will turn this game into an arcade game, you'd better release it for it's intended target: kids.
And to all those carebear whinners you should know that this change will affect you either.... DRASTICALLY.
You think that, finally i can travel safely around eve with way less chance to be killed. I will now be able to safely deliver my loot and/or minerals and sell it. That will rock.
But what you do not see is the big picture. A big slice of PvP-ing will be removed. 30%-40%-50% (i dont know the exact number and that is not the issue) of eve kills are done on ships approaching the gate. That will be no more and that will mean: less ships needed for PvP as less ships gets destroyed, less modules and less demand for your carebear aquired modules.
Warp to 0 will generate a snowball effect. Not only Pvp-ing will be creeppled but also industry, mining and even mission running.
i fail to see the problem, you speak of the big picture and of a snowball effect but don't say how it will happen...
for how i see it the only change is that instead to have tons of instans (that affect lag and db usage) you have the option to warp to 0
this difference will affect only noobs that have not instans, making for them easier to get into the game... of course you will not be able to snipe anymore such noobs in 0.4 but i don't see it as a huge drawback...
on the opposite the DB space and lag saved by this change can improve the gameplay for almost everyone
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Kye Kenshin
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.11.06 01:25:00 -
[28]
Sitting aligned, stabbed 200km of a gate sniping shuttles and hauler pilots who should know better Is an arcade game for kids.
You know I've managed to kill people on the jump-in under sentry fire. Yes I know that sounds like effort but then that's how it should be.
This change will only help get more people into low-sec which actually means more targets for pirates.
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Ruze
No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2006.11.06 02:01:00 -
[29]
Alright, all the anti-griefers have said anything I could say, in much more angry tones. Now to play devil's advocate.
- Gate Camping is not simply a griefer, pirate tactic. As it stands, it's also the only way to secure your space in 0.0 and low-sec. The fact that it's also the easiest route for lazy pirates is just a poor mark on a real life tactic called 'bottlenecking.'
- Camping the recieving end of a gate is often considered an exploit, because even with the auto-cloak, players can still be hit with heavy lag and caught unable to fight back. Much more rare nowdays, but still happens.
- Without interdictor bubbles, camping gates is completely inconsistent in low-sec. With the HP boost and the adjustment to tanking, most every ship will have enough resistance to hold off an attack.
- Chases, one of the major events of true pirates, are even more nulified, as now players may warp to the security of a jump by going straight for 0km, vice 15km.
It is very easy to argue for something you feel strongly about. It's harder to actually try to see the other end of the argument. While warping to 0km will help me, I'll use it, it makes it easier on me when I don't have those insta's for that odd gate, it's still not a sound idea.
5km? Sounds more reasonable. Still some flight time, no invulnerability, but not 15km of painful BS crawling (or worse, freighter).
Insta's are not an intended game mechanic. They are a crutch that we all have grown to rely on. As much as I hate pirating, especially sitting on the end of a gank, I don't think this is the best solution. Nor do I support skills or the map, as they increase server load.
Finally, remember that it's testing. Easiest way to avoid server lag is to simply take out the crutch for a bit and let players play the hard way. Will it make TQ? Doubt it, but I do hope for the 5km option over this 'warp to 0.'
Genesis Project |
Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.06 02:33:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Ruze
Alright, all the anti-griefers have said anything I could say, in much more angry tones. Now to play devil's advocate.
- Gate Camping is not simply a griefer, pirate tactic. As it stands, it's also the only way to secure your space in 0.0 and low-sec. The fact that it's also the easiest route for lazy pirates is just a poor mark on a real life tactic called 'bottlenecking.'
bubbles can still be used to secure alliance space, in 0.0 every decent gate camp have a couple of bubble, the warp to 0 will not change anything about it
Originally by: Ruze
- Without interdictor bubbles, camping gates is completely inconsistent in low-sec. With the HP boost and the adjustment to tanking, most every ship will have enough resistance to hold off an attack.
but also warp to 0 is not adding anything new, every decent player that plan to travel heavily in a low sec area will get instas, the real difference is that he will not ask them to one of his guildmates or, at worst, will not spend a couple of mil to purchase them
also this will make dictors and bubble skills more usefull than now, making them usefull for more playstyles than now
Originally by: Ruze
- Chases, one of the major events of true pirates, are even more nulified, as now players may warp to the security of a jump by going
straight for 0km, vice 15km.
even here we are speaking not of all players but just by the ones that have not instans (generally noobs)
is not that with this option people will be able to do things impossible to do before, the difference is that instead to have a (common) ingame object not designed for this purpose (and that require a lot of resources) devs have introduced a mechanic that lead to same results whitout using all these resources
Originally by: Ruze
Finally, remember that it's testing. Easiest way to avoid server lag is to simply take out the crutch for a bit and let players play the hard way. Will it make TQ? Doubt it, but I do hope for the 5km option over this 'warp to 0.'
actually i don't like instans cause they allowed a game too safe, if you see i'm pro warp to 0 but against instans... it sound a bit strange...
the problem here is that instans have become a common "game tool", and at this point there is no way to eliminate them...
the dev problem is that totally removing instans will make the game way slower than now, one of the big "flaws" of eve is indeed traveling that is quite boring and a huge timesink...
for this reason devs can't simply remove instans, if they could they had alredy done that a long time ago, instead they introduced bubbles to partially preserve the danger of traveling whitout making the travel slower or more boring.
the problem here is not to allow noobs to travel safer in low sec, but that instans are using too many resources and the only way to preserve the actual gameplay (keeping bookmarks and not making travel slower) is to implement the warp to 0 (manual) option
as to make it on TQ, i'm almost certain that it will make it, the problem here is quite big and there are not other viable solutions, on test forum there was a very long discussion about possible solutions and this was the only good one.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.11.06 03:53:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Ruze
- Gate Camping is not simply a griefer, pirate tactic. As it stands, it's also the only way to secure your space in 0.0 and low-sec.
In 0.0 sec you can use bubbles, in which case warp to 0km wont help, because they won't warp.
As for lowsec, well, it's never 'your' space, unless CCP makes it one day possible to fight the NPC empires, which if done, should be next to impossible to beat considering they likely have millions of ships and pilots.
Originally by: kieron
The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Luric Vizjier
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.06 03:56:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Queen Hades
This change will give new players a better start into Eve. I like and appreciate it.
The bullies ("pirates") may think so but they are not the only people playing Eve.
Between "warp to 0" and new characters being able to start at 800k SP, I think noobs have it too easy now. Part of the joy of EVE is finally reaching your goals after an extended period of time. I have problems in my area with month old characters running the first half of a 5/10 plex in my space solo, and then camping the lvl that drops the easiest tier. That is ridiculous.
And as far as "warp to 0" goes. This game is all about risk=reward, so where is the risk in low sec anymore? Were the gate guns not enough? How is anyone going to effectively be able to run an empire war since you can't catch them on one side, and dictors are useless on the other? This change is shortsighted and should have never come to fruition.
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Kannteir
Amarr
White Nova Industries
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.06 10:34:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Kannteir on 06/11/2006 10:35:59
Don't you all see? Combat will still happen on empire gates! Just because there is a warp to 0km feature doesn't mean autopilot will use it... now you have to be at your computer even if you're autopiloting 
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-=White Nova=-
Carebears With Teeth |
Pzyklon
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Posted - 2006.11.06 17:47:00 -
[34]
Its gonna be pretty easy for noob alts to scout systems now
probably would be a better idea to have the max jump range at 7500m(still a good 5k outside of jump threshold) and inability to jump to 0km in a system claimed/owned by someone who doesnt like you. Now that could be standing wise or something activated by (past) sentry activity near gates
not the best 2 cents
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Nicocat
Caldari
New Age Solutions
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Posted - 2006.11.06 17:55:00 -
[35]
I love reading these threads and playing a mid-work game of "Spot the gatecamping ********." I always win!
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Please don't try to troll in your signature -Eldo([email protected])
I tried? |
Gamesguy
Amarr
Reunited
O X I D E
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Posted - 2006.11.06 22:56:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Hey, guess what? You don't have to tank the sentries until you start shooting.
Way to miss the point dumbass. I want to know how we're supposed to scramble a cruiser 40km away from a jump in in low sec w/o using gallente recon.
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Skybar
Minmatar
Deviance Inc
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.06 23:10:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Skybar on 06/11/2006 23:11:36
Perhaps one thing for everybody who wishes to travel through low-sec in a industrial, would be to allow it's eventual escort to be able to return fire!
This is one big issue right here. If my friend gets shot at a gate by someone, he can return fire, but not me.
That is bloody wrong and should be changed. I am a pirate, so people can shoot at me anyway. However, when someone attacks my pirate friend, I can't come to help.
Flying in gangs, or escorting people in low-sec is pretty much useless except versus those Pirates who are -5.5 or worse, a.k.a outlaws. It's easy to get your sec status backup so you can go back gank a industrial at a gate.
Warp to 0 wont trouble me too much, I rarely gate camp. Perhaps I occascionally follow someone from a belt who I had scrambled, but he was stabbed, to the gate just to take the sentries long enough to punish him for the stabs.
If Warp to 0 comes to exist, those chases would be eliminated.
But on the other hand, currently, it's a good trade-off to improve the lag. But I'd like to see some further developement on this.
"Dauntless fleet commander, or the most nefarious pirate ever to terrorize the galaxy" |
The Chemist
Gallente
Aliastra
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Posted - 2006.11.07 07:49:00 -
[38]
Edited by: The Chemist on 07/11/2006 07:49:05
If you think how many insta bookmarks CCP will be deleting if this goĘs to TQ.
Lets say the average character has 4 full regions with instas as an average, most probably have FAR more than this. Call it 2000 bookmarks per character as a ballpark figure. Most times there are 20,000 players online at any time. ThatĘs 40 million less database entries, 40 million less bits of data going to clients each time people open P&P, and 40 million less lag packets Try opening P&P with a new character, it opens instantly, open P&P with 12 regions worth of instas, and come back in 2 minutes. I am sure that the current warp to 0m will not stay exactly as it is, not many things do on the test server.
If this means *** camping, sorry gate camping, (thought I was 12 for a moment there) becomes harder for the sake of everyone else in the game, get used to it.
If God made us to be just like him, then God is dumb and maybe a little ugly on the side...[F.Z] |
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.11.07 08:21:00 -
[39]
Originally by: SiDRaN
Edited by: SiDRaN on 05/11/2006 19:00:21
Since Warp to 0 km will turn this game into an arcade game, you'd better release it for it's intended target: kids.
And to all those carebear whinners you should know that this change will affect you either.... DRASTICALLY.
You think that, finally i can travel safely around eve with way less chance to be killed. I will now be able to safely deliver my loot and/or minerals and sell it. That will rock.
But what you do not see is the big picture. A big slice of PvP-ing will be removed. 30%-40%-50% (i dont know the exact number and that is not the issue) of eve kills are done on ships approaching the gate. That will be no more and that will mean: less ships needed for PvP as less ships gets destroyed, less modules and less demand for your carebear aquired modules.
Warp to 0 will generate a snowball effect. Not only Pvp-ing will be creeppled but also industry, mining and even mission running.
PS: I thought the problem with instas is, mainly, that they generate a game mechanic that was never inteded (near imunity travel).Now you are actually giving this imunity to all players ?? BM related lag problem should be address in a different manner. Dont do the same mistake Sony did with SWG when they turn it into a mortal kombat like game just to satisfy some carebear whines. Dond make the same mistake as i like this game and i dont want to die.
I didn't bother reading all the replys to this as the answer is quite simple.. Low sec piracy was too effective.. Thats why the belts are empty.. thats why the only targets you have are nubs at gates using autopilot.. Low sec has to be made more inviting or your never going to have any of the 'carebears' risking their stuff as any vet will evade you almost every time even with the old mechanics of travel.. Warp to 0km makes travel in low sec inviting again.. Catch them on the jump in now.. TBH the only problem I see so far is the automatic warp to 0km when you dock at a station.. Now thats a gamebreaker that I pray never makes it to Tranq..
[2:02:08] Dred'Pirate Jesus > I'm Mexican you dolt.. It's pronouced "hey zeus" not "gee zus" |
Fools nobody
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Posted - 2006.11.07 08:51:00 -
[40]
CCP are trying to encourage grouped warfare, hence the new gang features, the new ships don't look like they'd do well on thier own and the last big update had command ships. They aren't deliberatly trying to nerf pirates, as it is just as easy to get a warp disrupter and go to the other side of te gate, but to get more people into the alliances where the new features make a difference they need the warp to 0 function. This is what interdictors and force recons were designed for.
Also what roleplaying reason at all would allow instas to warp to the gate, but not warp to 0? Doesn't make any sense. And removing BMs would ruin alot of other things like any ability to hide from pirates, or even just mining.
This is the only logically option to prevent gatecamps blasting random noobs, who then abandon all hopes of lowsec for a long time.
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Queen Hades
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Posted - 2006.11.07 09:22:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Queen Hades on 07/11/2006 09:23:46
Edited by: Queen Hades on 07/11/2006 09:22:56
Originally by: Fools nobody
CCP are trying to encourage grouped warfare, hence the new gang features, the new ships don't look like they'd do well on thier own and the last big update had command ships. They aren't deliberatly trying to nerf pirates, as it is just as easy to get a warp disrupter and go to the other side of te gate, but to get more people into the alliances where the new features make a difference they need the warp to 0 function. This is what interdictors and force recons were designed for.
Also what roleplaying reason at all would allow instas to warp to the gate, but not warp to 0? Doesn't make any sense. And removing BMs would ruin alot of other things like any ability to hide from pirates, or even just mining.
This is the only logically option to prevent gatecamps blasting random noobs, who then abandon all hopes of lowsec for a long time.
qft
I did not go to low sec for a long time because I was wtfpwned at gates by snipers there - in fact I was REALLY scared of low sec because of this.
It is people like B*** a** K***** who are responsible for empty asteroid belts and low sec wasteland. People who don't give you the slightest chance of going there and scare you off from other systems not infested by them with their insane powerplay. 
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Queen Hades
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Posted - 2006.11.07 09:28:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Luric Vizjier
Originally by: Queen Hades
This change will give new players a better start into Eve. I like and appreciate it.
The bullies ("pirates") may think so but they are not the only people playing Eve.
Between "warp to 0" and new characters being able to start at 800k SP, I think noobs have it too easy now. Part of the joy of EVE is finally reaching your goals after an extended period of time. I have problems in my area with month old characters running the first half of a 5/10 plex in my space solo, and then camping the lvl that drops the easiest tier. That is ridiculous.
And as far as "warp to 0" goes. This game is all about risk=reward, so where is the risk in low sec anymore? Were the gate guns not enough? How is anyone going to effectively be able to run an empire war since you can't catch them on one side, and dictors are useless on the other? This change is shortsighted and should have never come to fruition.
Noobs have two problems now:
1. Powerplaying griefers / bullies camping low sec systems
2. Completely staying in high sec is boring after two weeks in the game - I was able to slay every single rat in 0.5 belts on my second day (and this is not a joke)
Why not have something in between? Risky low sec but no more powerplay. And this is what "warp to 0" will bring (and it will bring less cerebral standby while travelling as well).
The best thing in low sec is the community action, when you form antipirate - forces and the like. I really love that, this is why I play Eve.
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Min Chen
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Posted - 2006.11.07 11:51:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Min Chen on 07/11/2006 11:53:07
Hmm lets think about this. Most people in Eve if they have half a brain and live in or near 0.0 space will have a set of instas. Even if its just for a certain route. How many players do we really see anymore flying around 0.0 without them. Yea not very many. Lets face it, people already have the instas so making a warp to 0 option can only help by reducing the already pressing issue of extreme Eve lag. So how can you really complain about CCP putting this option into Eve, its like you know most everyone has instas but yet you continue to deny it by saying "Oh well now i cant get my easy 'low sec' ganks." Umm why dont you try some roaming gangs, or fleet battles, or maybe some guerilla tactics on some peoples home systems. I mean cmon gate camping is really only a small part of PVP in Eve, that is if you can even count it as real PVP. So please lets quit crying over every issue about Eve. If its really that bad then dont play, no one is holding a gun to your head. |
Rikkard Strofeldt
Gallente
Sniggerdly
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Posted - 2006.11.07 12:43:00 -
[44]
As a pirate, I approve of "Warp to 0".
--
Descending into madness. |
Claussen
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Posted - 2006.11.07 13:55:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Min Chen
Edited by: Min Chen on 07/11/2006 11:53:07
Hmm lets think about this. Most people in Eve if they have half a brain and live in or near 0.0 space will have a set of instas. Even if its just for a certain route. How many players do we really see anymore flying around 0.0 without them. Yea not very many. Lets face it, people already have the instas so making a warp to 0 option can only help by reducing the already pressing issue of extreme Eve lag. So how can you really complain about CCP putting this option into Eve, its like you know most everyone has instas but yet you continue to deny it by saying "Oh well now i cant get my easy 'low sec' ganks." Umm why dont you try some roaming gangs, or fleet battles, or maybe some guerilla tactics on some peoples home systems. I mean cmon gate camping is really only a small part of PVP in Eve, that is if you can even count it as real PVP. So please lets quit crying over every issue about Eve. If its really that bad then dont play, no one is holding a gun to your head.
Heh... some people are delusional in thinking that most players do NOT have instas. "Madness!" I say.
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John McDuff
Caldari
Saturn Group Industries
Saturn Group
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:16:00 -
[46]
I'm not against an intended means to jump atop a gate, it is there now in an unintened fashion with all technical problems that come with it. But as Segmentor suggested in one way: make it cost. Using instas costs lots of effort or isk, so why not make it a module or a rig giving up fitting posibilities, or an expensive high level skill making it time consuming and expensive. Yeah ppl who already have invested in instas (like me) could be ****ed but that system just has to go.
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Tek'a Rain
Gallente
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.07 19:11:00 -
[47]
skills are not the answer.
we dont need More "stup1d n00b, your not 4ll0wed t0 le4ve 3mpire until U tr41n to 5!!1!eleventyone!!"
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Don Hicks
Dirty Labs
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Posted - 2006.11.07 20:35:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Don Hicks on 07/11/2006 20:36:54
Cant be asked to read all replies so I may be repeating someone:
BM's must go, or at least the number must be reduced to safe spot and locations. They are too much strain on nodes. And if the only way to get rid off bms is too introduce 'warp to 0' then do it.
Regarding gate camps, good pvpers will be able to camp gates anyway - use bubble, camp exit side, etc. so no worries there. SiDran says 'warp to 0' will remove 'a big slice of pvp-ing'. well i disagree - there will be many more unexperienced pilots in 0.0 and low sec = more wrecks for rigs 
Dirty Labs, part of Capital Trust |
Tharim
Minmatar
Code-Blue
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Posted - 2006.11.07 20:56:00 -
[49]
Its strange. Everybody talks about how bad the warp to 0 thing is going to ruin pvp and all that. But i cant come up with a single time i have been killed on that side of the gate. It has allways been at the jump-in side. Allways.
Whats the big deal really? Some wannabe pirates sniping in losec must start working for their kills? Cry me a river..
www.eve-files.com/media/0602/CCP_tharim.gif[/IMG]
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 kbs, ty - Cortes |
Gamesguy
Amarr
Reunited
O X I D E
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Posted - 2006.11.07 21:00:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Skybar
Edited by: Skybar on 06/11/2006 23:11:36
Perhaps one thing for everybody who wishes to travel through low-sec in a industrial, would be to allow it's eventual escort to be able to return fire!
This is one big issue right here. If my friend gets shot at a gate by someone, he can return fire, but not me.
That is bloody wrong and should be changed. I am a pirate, so people can shoot at me anyway. However, when someone attacks my pirate friend, I can't come to help.
Flying in gangs, or escorting people in low-sec is pretty much useless except versus those Pirates who are -5.5 or worse, a.k.a outlaws. It's easy to get your sec status backup so you can go back gank a industrial at a gate.
Warp to 0 wont trouble me too much, I rarely gate camp. Perhaps I occascionally follow someone from a belt who I had scrambled, but he was stabbed, to the gate just to take the sentries long enough to punish him for the stabs.
If Warp to 0 comes to exist, those chases would be eliminated.
But on the other hand, currently, it's a good trade-off to improve the lag. But I'd like to see some further developement on this.
Thats completely and utterly false. As soon as I fire on you at a gate, I get criminal flagged for 15 minutes and everyone in the game can shoot me w/o concord interference.
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Gefex
Thunderbolts
The Cyrene Initiative
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Posted - 2006.11.08 16:50:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Rasputin Jones
3) I played UO (one of the games Eve is based on, due to it's supreme PvPing) for almost five years as a 7x PvP GM. We didn't call jumping someone 5v1 PvP, we called it lame. PvP should be between one person and another, or two v two etc... IMHO, the less gangbanging that goes on the better and anything that is done to cripple gangbangings is also a good thing.
Amen to that! Jeez I haven't heard someone call it 'gangbanging' in a long time, that truely is a ye olde UO term .. but you are sooo right.
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Arushia
Nova Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.09 03:14:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Gamesguy
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Learn to catch people on the other side of the gate. It ain't that hard.
Learn to read. I'd like to see a tackling setup that can tank sentries for a reasonable amount of time, can fit a mwd, and can lock and put more than 1 point on target in less than 4-5 seconds against say a cruiser.
And please, no hacs.
Tank sentries? Maybe not, but I've had Crows do the rest too me. Ask TOXIN, and while you're at it, ask them for my Arbitrator's cargo back.
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
I didn't bother reading all the replys to this as the answer is quite simple.. Low sec piracy was too effective.. Thats why the belts are empty.. thats why the only targets you have are nubs at gates using autopilot.. Low sec has to be made more inviting or your never going to have any of the 'carebears' risking their stuff as any vet will evade you almost every time even with the old mechanics of travel.. Warp to 0km makes travel in low sec inviting again.. Catch them on the jump in now.. TBH the only problem I see so far is the automatic warp to 0km when you dock at a station.. Now thats a gamebreaker that I pray never makes it to Tranq..
Warp to station at 0 is already on TQ in the form of guess-what: insta-dock BMs.
/agree with low sec needing to be more inviting. 0.4 Deserves better ore than Jaspet and Kernite, both less profitable than Omber, with Kernite even being found in Amarr high-sec.
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TomParad0x
Caldari
adeptus gattacus
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.09 03:30:00 -
[53]
Originally by: SiDRaN
Edited by: SiDRaN on 05/11/2006 19:00:21
Since Warp to 0 km will turn this game into an arcade game, you'd better release it for it's intended target: kids.
And to all those carebear whinners you should know that this change will affect you either.... DRASTICALLY.
You think that, finally i can travel safely around eve with way less chance to be killed. I will now be able to safely deliver my loot and/or minerals and sell it. That will rock.
But what you do not see is the big picture. A big slice of PvP-ing will be removed. 30%-40%-50% (i dont know the exact number and that is not the issue) of eve kills are done on ships approaching the gate. That will be no more and that will mean: less ships needed for PvP as less ships gets destroyed, less modules and less demand for your carebear aquired modules.
Warp to 0 will generate a snowball effect. Not only Pvp-ing will be creeppled but also industry, mining and even mission running.
PS: I thought the problem with instas is, mainly, that they generate a game mechanic that was never inteded (near imunity travel).Now you are actually giving this imunity to all players ?? BM related lag problem should be address in a different manner. Dont do the same mistake Sony did with SWG when they turn it into a mortal kombat like game just to satisfy some carebear whines. Dond make the same mistake as i like this game and i dont want to die.
Carebears? honestly your an idiot if you think that, though im not a "carebear", i welcome the change because it will reduce the LAG.
You thought nothing of instas?... what the hell? i think theres a post in the dev blog, or a quote somewhere saying the BM DB was either the largest, or it was the one causing the most load / lag, one of the two ( either way it was laggy ).
Lol, 30 - 50% of eve's kills are done from ships heading to a gate? thats not PVP imo, thats a group of people killing some random person running through the gate who isnt suspecting it. Granted, im sure you get fights sometime, nor do i have a problem with gate camping per say.. But still, thats the way i see it.
And honestly, if another option can be provided that does not suck, does not require me to go out and skill something that 99% of the server is going to end up training, and does not involve having to fit a mod... i am fine with it. But honestly faster travel isnt my problem, its lag.
Sig offline till i fix my domain... |
Gamesguy
Amarr
Reunited
O X I D E
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Posted - 2006.11.09 03:35:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Arushia
Tank sentries? Maybe not, but I've had Crows do the rest too me. Ask TOXIN, and while you're at it, ask them for my Arbitrator's cargo back.
Right, so this crow tackled your arbitrator in low sec w/o getting mcpwned by the sentries in one shot? No it didnt. We're not talking about 0.0 here, we're talking about low sec gate camps.
Dont you just love the red herrings? Concession accepted.
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.11.09 04:23:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Arushia
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
I didn't bother reading all the replys to this as the answer is quite simple.. Low sec piracy was too effective.. Thats why the belts are empty.. thats why the only targets you have are nubs at gates using autopilot.. Low sec has to be made more inviting or your never going to have any of the 'carebears' risking their stuff as any vet will evade you almost every time even with the old mechanics of travel.. Warp to 0km makes travel in low sec inviting again.. Catch them on the jump in now.. TBH the only problem I see so far is the automatic warp to 0km when you dock at a station.. Now thats a gamebreaker that I pray never makes it to Tranq..
Warp to station at 0 is already on TQ in the form of guess-what: insta-dock BMs.
Yes it is but you have to actually make it to the station to make one.. Not an easy task in a camped system.. Automatic warp to 0km to stations is not in anyones best interest.. I think if warp to 0km gate to gate is implimented and gives nearly unrestricted low sec system to system travel then its just natural to make it harder to actually dock and make a profit/escape a gank.. I'm thinking that its on SISI though to speed up things to make testing easier so its possible that even the gate to gate may not make it in kali.. I hope 0km gtg does make it in and by the replys in all the threads so far so do most others but I guess we need to keep spamming these kind of topics to make our wishes known.. 
[2:02:08] Dred'Pirate Jesus > I'm Mexican you dolt.. It's pronouced "hey zeus" not "gee zus" |
Lisento Slaven
Amarr
The Drekla Consortium
New Eve Order
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Posted - 2006.11.09 12:37:00 -
[56]
This is getting annoying.
If you guys want to camp low-sec gates with sniping battleships - GET MORE BATTLESHIPS! Because that's all I ever see people camp low-sec gates with. Battleships outside the sentry range.
This will let you kill people coming into a system but, oh-noes, you can't pop someone exitting a system. This is only 1/2 the gates you won't be able to camp. Not 100% chunk of EVE PVP like half the people make it sound.
To the person who wanted to tank the sentries - you can always get a properly fitted BC or battleship to tank the sentries for a decent amount of time and you should know that. Can't pop a ship fast enough? Get more friends to shoot at it. Simple as that. You have more then 2 midslots on a ship and people come out at 15km range when entering a system. Boom - double 20km scrams right there. People will be fitting less WCS now with the nerf. Boom - you probably only need 1 20km scram because people fly with combat in mind more than travelling. I know you asked for an actual setup but what the heck...fit it to TANK and to TACKLE. Don't fit it to do damage if all you want it to do is to survive the sentries. If you can't fit a dual rep BS with injector that can tank the sentries long enough to pop 1 traveller (who won't be able to fight back with a travelling setup) then I can't help you and no one can until you get more friends to help you gate camp.
The 50% boost to HP is what is going to hurt the solo pirates more than the warp in to 0km. You are going to take longer to kill your prey which means their friends will have more time to get there. Oh yeah - with warp in to 0km their friends will also be travelling a lot faster. No more taking 30 minutes to go 8 jumps with a stupid battleship if you don't have instas.
The only argument I've heard that sounds decent is the one against warp in at 0km for *stations*...the gate 0km is fine in my opinion.
---
Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE.
Put in space whales!
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Queen Hades
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Posted - 2006.11.09 12:45:00 -
[57]
Yes, I agree, stations should have a minimum warp - in - distance of 15 km. Gates 0 k, stations 15 km. This is nice.
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Mudkest
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Posted - 2006.11.09 13:34:00 -
[58]
add shorter warp distance(5-7.5km? maybe bigger slower ships with stronger sensors are able to warp closer then frigates with little computing/sensor power?) and make bookmarks random drop out of warp in a 7.5-15km radius. sometimes bookmark is faster, sometimes warp too is faster. instas gone, traveling is faster and bookmarks for general locations(safespots and what not) still work
- When talking about the itsy bitsy spider, try not to start with itchy, you'll get the second part wrong as well |
Jdestars
Stars Research systems Incorporation
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Posted - 2006.11.09 13:46:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Ruze
....
- Gate Camping is not simply a griefer, pirate tactic. As it stands, it's also the only way to secure your space in 0.0 and low-sec. The fact that it's also the easiest route for lazy pirates is just a poor mark on a real life tactic called 'bottlenecking.'
....
0.'
i suppose you dont know what a jumpgate for Capital Ship ...
a fleet dont use a fixe gate for invade your system
you just pk neutral people ... great politic !
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Mudkest
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Posted - 2006.11.09 16:08:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Jdestars
i suppose you dont know what a jumpgate for Capital Ship ...
a fleet dont use a fixe gate for invade your system
you just pk neutral people ... great politic !
still need a cynofield for that jumpgate thingie, wich means you need a ship somewhere in the system. kill everyone comming in, and theye wont be able to put cynofield up and then cant bypass jumpgate with the jumpfieldwhatchamacallit
- When talking about the itsy bitsy spider, try not to start with itchy, you'll get the second part wrong as well |
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Zutah Ranakin
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Posted - 2006.11.09 16:35:00 -
[61]
if the game mechanic was not supposed to be there then it should be removed end of. so what it favours pirates but isnt using bookmarks to evade them exsploiting. so remove bookmarks and keep warping as it is. i am a carebear but the game was made a certain way and jsut cause alot of peopel exsploit that dosnt mean they should change there game to satisfy the exsploiters.
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Arushia
Nova Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.13 05:23:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Gamesguy
Edited by: Gamesguy on 09/11/2006 03:38:45
Edited by: Gamesguy on 09/11/2006 03:38:17
Originally by: Arushia
Tank sentries? Maybe not, but I've had Crows do the rest too me. Ask TOXIN, and while you're at it, ask them for my Arbitrator's cargo back.
Right, so this crow tackled your arbitrator in low sec at a gate w/o getting mcpwned by the sentries in one shot? No it didnt. We're not talking about 0.0 here, we're talking about low sec gate camps.
Dont you just love the red herrings? Concession accepted.
Actually this was in Orvolle (0.7) during a war, but i do agree it nerfs low-sec gate piracy because of the sentries. I just have no respect for low-sec gate priacy.
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Malena
Perpetual Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.13 22:13:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Ominus Decre
I would much rather have a skill which gradually reduces your "warp to" range down to -0- as you advacned it. Maybe at level 1 it's 15k, lvl 2 @ 10k, lvl 3 @ 5k and lvl 4 at 0m. Give something tide to "exploration:" to the advanced skill set which would encourage players to leanr lvl 5 of the "warp to 0' skill.
Wow, someone suggesting an alternative instead of whining? I am impressed. And I like it. I don't like that is yet another skill sink (like engineering 5 or electronics 5-sure, you could do without them, but you really don't want to) but it is at least an attempt to keep things more equal. Although....even if you only warp in at 5k, what ship can't survive for the 2.5k it will take to jump through?
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