This. Not much hate for the slaves. not their fault ccp is not expanding the range. For shields To be honest I'd even be open to the caveat of some sig radius hit to these to get them. True passive already hits this hard...whats a few more meters really to sig. if you wanted to be slim and skinny sig wise you'd crystal it with active tank.

Hull tanking be an interesting option. Ole boy sees shields melt, thinks aww yeah. Sees armour getting tore up....smells the blood. Then hits the wall of hull hp and goes wtf.....

Both implant sets are hardly comparable as they function in starkly different setups. Crystals have no use in big fleet fights and are not used in these scenarios. Slaves work well in fleets, but are not used in big fleets, especially not HG or MG, as their cost is prohibitive to the high likelihood of losing your capsule. Slaves on small and medium fleet doctrines like Low sec Sacrileges and Absolutions only work because you cannot lose your capsule. Slaves on caps can be seen as problematic, but as this is only one small group of ships compared to, for instance, where Crystals are very effective (Solo Tengus, Shield Boosting Marauders, Sleipnirs, etc pp.), I don't really see a need to change Slaves.

Instead of reducing Slave effects, call for the introduction of a Shield Buffer set and Armor Repair set.

Slave sets are one of those thing which everyone knows about, and which have a major shifting influence on the sandbox, but which no one really seems to talk about much. Like many things which have been with us since the early days of eve, they have had an enormous effect on what doctrines and playstyles emerged. The ability for armor tanks to add more than 50% of their base HP in armor without a single concession on the fitting, in a way which scales absolutely with buffer mods, rigs and so on, is far more powerful in the modern eve era than the shield boost bonus that crystal sets give. That this extends to capitals, unlike crystal sets, just tips them further over the line.

I think it is time to tone them down.

Overall, I would like to see slave sets effectiveness dropped to approximately:

HG: 32%
MG: 26%
LG 18%

I would prefer to accomplish this by reducing primarily the per implant set bonus, and slightly reducing the HP bonus on slots 3-5, to 2.5%, 3% and 3.5% respectively.

Why:

1. Armor capitals are too tough relative to shield capitals, and this helps even that out.
2. Buffer bonuses are inherently more powerful than rep bonuses with modern fleet sizes for fleet combat.
3. Oversized plates and slave synergize unfortunately well on t3s, HACs and other cruisers with the space for large plates.
4. It makes finding a competitive shield doctrine easier, and I like shield doctrines.

To be completely fair to armor users everywhere, shield already gets a base hp buff from just the skills, so having a slave set isn't to unbalanced. It's just the natural outcome from armor boats with hp bonuses or high resists that they gain so much ehp. Slaves just have a tendency to be used on higher-level armor boats simply because they can sport such high natural resists, and it's easier to fit for them than shields are.

That said, I do support your idea with reducing their effectiveness. Cruiser and battlecruiser hulls reaching over a half a million ehp is absurd.

Plz. Passive regen is a joke for anything except PvE. Besides, armor has about 6 resistance and buffer options. While half of the shield options are focused on passive regen, and require you to literally sacrifice every slot on your ship except weapons but including dps mods to utilize them. And at least one of those (Shield Flux Coils) is complete trash.

And we won't even get into the sigRad bloom from extenders and shield rigs.

Armor has so many advantages over shields its not even funny.

...At the cost of 2.5 bill isk in implants. It's a fair trade off.

Actually it's 6x 80 million isk + 80.000LP from the Blood Raider LP store.

Actually it's 6x 80 million isk + 80.000LP from the Blood Raider LP store.

You are drastically off on how much a Slave set costs from the Sansha's LP store.

Rather have a shield and hull bonus set of implants.

Which is??

your first example there is supers... how their ehp gets buffed out of proportion.

you know at the present moment, the wyvern has the highest tank and dps combo going.
the wyvern DPS fit, has 33.7m ehp. Max tank fit is 39.7m ehp (slaves for giggles pushes 42.7m ehp)
a nyx with full tank fit AND SLAVES, has 28.8m ehp



add gang links...
Wyvern Max DPS 40.8m ehp, Max tank 48.1m ehp (52m ehp with slave)
Nyx max tank 35.7m ehp
Aeon max tank 52m ehp

Dps comparison
Wyvern DPS fit, 9894
Aeon tank fit 5600
Nyx Tank fit, 7050

to get similar dps,(approx 9 - 10k)
the nyx drops down to 24m ehp
the aeon to 31m ehp

so please tell me where slave sets are breaking capitals

Expect to see a call for a reduction with Crystal implants as well...

You can talk about reducing the buffer advantage of armor tanks when shields stop regenerating on their own.

I generally dont subscribe to "because its expensive it has to be good" ideas, I try not to let a ships cost determine whether or not it should be better or worse than it is in my opinions.

But slaves are the one time i disagree with that and believe they should be, not because of cost, because of the meta

Specifically the Armor VS Shield Meta and how it works

Armor is for raw Buffer, maximum long term staying power, slaves allow this on certain ships, especially supercapitals, capitals, and T3's. And i dont think this should be taken away.

I mean Look at crystal implants, fitting those to the right build can double your tank the same way the slaves double buffer, but nobody complains about crystals because of the meta and their lower volume of use, not to mention shield tanks can be nueted and come with higher sig radius blooms.

Just because something is popular dosn't mean it should be nerfed, so i respectfully disagree with you this time OP

But slaves are the one time i disagree with that and believe they should be, not because of cost, because of the meta

Specifically the Armor VS Shield Meta and how it works

Armor is for raw Buffer, maximum long term staying power, slaves allow this on certain ships, especially supercapitals, capitals, and T3's. And i dont think this should be taken away.

Slave sets are one of those thing which everyone knows about, and which have a major shifting influence on the sandbox, but which no one really seems to talk about much. Like many things which have been with us since the early days of eve, they have had an enormous effect on what doctrines and playstyles emerged. The ability for armor tanks to add more than 50% of their base HP in armor without a single concession on the fitting, in a way which scales absolutely with buffer mods, rigs and so on, is far more powerful in the modern eve era than the shield boost bonus that crystal sets give. That this extends to capitals, unlike crystal sets, just tips them further over the line.

Most of the super pilots are using Nomads or warp speed sets , as they are much more useful than slave set.
(of course if someone have armor super he will have at least 2 clones with proper implants , one for aligning/ warp speed second using slaves , but the slave set is only "in case of next B-R")

make the Chimera able to match Archon as a triage carrier without putting a SC worth of isk on the field.

Those numbers for tank fit is not 100% correct.
Wyvren using all mid/low/rig having HG slave

It does all ready.



If your flying a Wyvern and using Slaves/Nomads/CA-1to4 Then your doing it wrong.

Your telling me a t2 fit Chimera match a t2 Arhcon for RR, local tank and capacitor? Saying it needed 20b to make it work may have been to much :P but i would still like to see a Chimera that can match a t2 fit Archon for RR/local tank/cap life and still be in the same price range

The slave Wyvren was to match the number posted about its EHP, if you read the whole post i made i also stated that slaves do very little for the Wyvren.

Note: Im not for nerfing Slaves, i made a comment about someone comparing apples to oranges (passive 11 slot buffer vs active 15 slot buffer).Then i made a suggestion to buff capital shield modules, mainly need a fix for fitting.

2nd big cost point is there are no shield EANM's so were you might be spending 100 mill each on a cupple of them on the armor fits you need to spend 300 mill each on 2 nice invuns... other than that its just meta reps and implants but that's the same costs on both.... so its ~1bill on rigs more and 400mill more getting 2 nice invuns over nice EANM's

if people are slave implanting wyverns by default you don't deserve wyvenrs.
Wyverns can get the 2nd biggest EHP in the game after Levis... there is nothing up with shield supers.



Shield supers don't need a buff
Shield caps would be better with like 3%-5% more CPU so you can full T2 fit them like there armor bros

So we agree that you need to spend more to get comparable numbers on a shield carrier (1.4b or about the hull cost extra) AND we agree that shield could use some help with fitting.

I dont get why people keep quoting me and say that Wyvrens should not use slaves, READ THE DAMN POSTS where i say it myself that i dont think they should use it!

Not really if you just go for a scrub T2 fit with scrub T1 CCCGÇÖs like most bad people do in eve on both ships then the shield one can overload its tank for a higher 4-5 min burst tank and the armor versions will tank less but are a bit more capstable if tanking for longer than one triage cycle. So pretty normal when you compare them to everything else.

You are still ignoring the fact that YOU said that a chimera carrier need another 1.4b in fitting to get comparable numbers to an archon. After insurance what is the total cost diffrence? (SRP dont count since that is still isk someone pay for it)