EVE Search - [implants] Rebalance slave sets

Check My IP Information

All Channels

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

[implants] Rebalance slave sets

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 2 3 :: [one page]

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 601	Posted - 2015.05.03 23:08:27 - [1] - Quote Slave sets are one of those thing which everyone knows about, and which have a major shifting influence on the sandbox, but which no one really seems to talk about much. Like many things which have been with us since the early days of eve, they have had an enormous effect on what doctrines and playstyles emerged. The ability for armor tanks to add more than 50% of their base HP in armor without a single concession on the fitting, in a way which scales absolutely with buffer mods, rigs and so on, is far more powerful in the modern eve era than the shield boost bonus that crystal sets give. That this extends to capitals, unlike crystal sets, just tips them further over the line. I think it is time to tone them down. Overall, I would like to see slave sets effectiveness dropped to approximately: HG: 32% MG: 26% LG 18% I would prefer to accomplish this by reducing primarily the per implant set bonus, and slightly reducing the HP bonus on slots 3-5, to 2.5%, 3% and 3.5% respectively. Why: Armor capitals are too tough relative to shield capitals, and this helps even that out. Buffer bonuses are inherently more powerful than rep bonuses with modern fleet sizes for fleet combat. Oversized plates and slave synergize unfortunately well on t3s, HACs and other cruisers with the space for large plates. It makes finding a competitive shield doctrine easier, and I like shield doctrines. Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp
Arthur Aihaken Jormungand Corporation 4421	Posted - 2015.05.03 23:29:52 - [2] - Quote Expect to see a call for a reduction with Crystal implants as well... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Tabyll Altol Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 92	Posted - 2015.05.04 09:22:41 - [3] - Quote If somebody want-¦s to fly a t3 with such an expensive impset you should not be upset, you rather should get the firepower to pod him. Makes a juicy killmail. -1
Rowells ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans 2377	Posted - 2015.05.04 09:39:37 - [4] - Quote Tabyll Altol wrote: If somebody want-¦s to fly a t3 with such an expensive impset you should not be upset, you rather should get the firepower to pod him. Makes a juicy killmail. -1 how is that relevant to power balance?
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 602	Posted - 2015.05.04 09:53:23 - [5] - Quote Tabyll Altol wrote: If somebody want-¦s to fly a t3 with such an expensive impset you should not be upset, you rather should get the firepower to pod him. Makes a juicy killmail. -1 I think they are problematic on many other scales. T3 and capitals bring out the worst imbalances with them, but they are so much more effective than crystals, their shield counter-part. In modern fleets, local reps are a joke compared to RR. In modern solo, many people fly armor buffer, so applicable there. Hmm, active armor? More armor HP to chew through, so more time for your reps to catch. Looks like they help almost every application of armor tanking, vs only helping subcap local tanks for crystals, and so to balance the two somewhat, reducing the raw power advantage of slaves is not unreasonable. That said, I like juicy pods, and want to keep being able to find them with slaves in, so I want them to continue to be valuable, without being over powered. How is that for a desire? Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp
Lugh Crow-Slave 1077	Posted - 2015.05.04 09:57:01 - [6] - Quote Rowells wrote: Tabyll Altol wrote: If somebody want-¦s to fly a t3 with such an expensive impset you should not be upset, you rather should get the firepower to pod him. Makes a juicy killmail. -1 how is that relevant to power balance? what he asked Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
Anthar Thebess 1014	Posted - 2015.05.04 10:34:01 - [7] - Quote Actually other pirate sets should get proper boost to be so viable option like crystal , slave , nomad etc. Implants are actually ok when people are using them , especially when there is free market , and you actually don't need blue list longer than you can remember to get them by yourself ( aka super construction). Yes you could say they bring imbalance , but think from where this imbalance comes, lets take for example 'slaved' armor carrier: - it will have more EHP - it's resistances will not be affected - dps will not change If you have good fleet composition , you can still kill it , it will just take a bit longer. Now when you have 50 ( or more) slowcats on grid first thing you need to consider is not how much EHP have specific ship, but will you be able to brake remote reps. The same applies to subcapital fleet. Currently the biggest imbalance is located in remote reps that specific ship receive. Remember that those sets are quite expensive , and pods are so fragile. Capital Remote AID Rebalance Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 658	Posted - 2015.05.04 10:37:04 - [8] - Quote While we are talking implants, may I suggest to the market bots that they lower the pricetag for them 'a tad'? The fellow market-trolls of New Eden may not realize it but I am very observant, wether I talk about it or not and I know that high-grade implants still cost the same as the did 8 years ago. Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
Rivr Luzade Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi 1398	Posted - 2015.05.04 10:48:51 - [9] - Quote Both implant sets are hardly comparable as they function in starkly different setups. Crystals have no use in big fleet fights and are not used in these scenarios. Slaves work well in fleets, but are not used in big fleets, especially not HG or MG, as their cost is prohibitive to the high likelihood of losing your capsule. Slaves on small and medium fleet doctrines like Low sec Sacrileges and Absolutions only work because you cannot lose your capsule. Slaves on caps can be seen as problematic, but as this is only one small group of ships compared to, for instance, where Crystals are very effective (Solo Tengus, Shield Boosting Marauders, Sleipnirs, etc pp.), I don't really see a need to change Slaves. Instead of reducing Slave effects, call for the introduction of a Shield Buffer set and Armor Repair set. Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
Catherine Laartii Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate 522	Posted - 2015.05.04 11:07:47 - [10] - Quote To be completely fair to armor users everywhere, shield already gets a base hp buff from just the skills, so having a slave set isn't to unbalanced. It's just the natural outcome from armor boats with hp bonuses or high resists that they gain so much ehp. Slaves just have a tendency to be used on higher-level armor boats simply because they can sport such high natural resists, and it's easier to fit for them than shields are. That said, I do support your idea with reducing their effectiveness. Cruiser and battlecruiser hulls reaching over a half a million ehp is absurd.

Aran Hotchkiss Phoibe Enterprises 82	Posted - 2015.05.04 11:39:40 - [11] - Quote Catherine Laartii wrote: shield already gets a base hp buff from just the skills, so having a slave set isn't to unbalanced Quote: Hull Upgrades: Skill at maintaining your ship's armor and installing hull upgrades like expanded cargoholds and inertial stabilizers. Grants a 5% bonus to armor hit points per skill level Shamelessly stole this line, Alternatively, QFT One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Lloyd Roses Artificial Memories 988	Posted - 2015.05.04 11:45:26 - [12] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: Both implant sets are hardly comparable as they function in starkly different setups. Crystals have no use in big fleet fights and are not used in these scenarios. Slaves work well in fleets, but are not used in big fleets, especially not HG or MG, as their cost is prohibitive to the high likelihood of losing your capsule. Slaves on small and medium fleet doctrines like Low sec Sacrileges and Absolutions only work because you cannot lose your capsule. Slaves on caps can be seen as problematic, but as this is only one small group of ships compared to, for instance, where Crystals are very effective (Solo Tengus, Shield Boosting Marauders, Sleipnirs, etc pp.), I don't really see a need to change Slaves. Instead of reducing Slave effects, call for the introduction of a Shield Buffer set and Armor Repair set. The issue is that crystals don't work on caps, but slaves for some reason do. Oh please. Dreadnought 0, slowcat 1.
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12881	Posted - 2015.05.04 11:57:30 - [13] - Quote You can talk about reducing the buffer advantage of armor tanks when shields stop regenerating on their own. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Ncc 1709 Fusion Enterprises Ltd Shadow of xXDEATHXx 188	Posted - 2015.05.04 12:01:07 - [14] - Quote your first example there is supers... how their ehp gets buffed out of proportion. you know at the present moment, the wyvern has the highest tank and dps combo going. the wyvern DPS fit, has 33.7m ehp. Max tank fit is 39.7m ehp (slaves for giggles pushes 42.7m ehp) a nyx with full tank fit AND SLAVES, has 28.8m ehp add gang links... Wyvern Max DPS 40.8m ehp, Max tank 48.1m ehp (52m ehp with slave) Nyx max tank 35.7m ehp Aeon max tank 52m ehp Dps comparison Wyvern DPS fit, 9894 Aeon tank fit 5600 Nyx Tank fit, 7050 to get similar dps,(approx 9 - 10k) the nyx drops down to 24m ehp the aeon to 31m ehp so please tell me where slave sets are breaking capitals
Minty Aroma Facta.Non.Verba The Obsidian Front 51	Posted - 2015.05.04 13:59:05 - [15] - Quote I'm hoping they'll make an active armour set and a passive shield set. That should equalize things a little. Maybe to make the sets not exactly the same, the armour set could give a boost to repair speed (and corresponding cap reduction) whereas the shield passive set could boost raw hp less than armour but also boosts passive shield regeneration by a sizable amount. Hopefully that would balance the tank types whilst still keeping them unique.
Rivr Luzade Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi 1399	Posted - 2015.05.04 14:07:09 - [16] - Quote Lloyd Roses wrote: The issue is that crystals don't work on caps, but slaves for some reason do. Oh please. Dreadnought 0, slowcat 1. Would be overpowered in Triage/Siege. Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
Xequecal GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 285	Posted - 2015.05.04 14:33:05 - [17] - Quote James Baboli wrote: Tabyll Altol wrote: If somebody want-¦s to fly a t3 with such an expensive impset you should not be upset, you rather should get the firepower to pod him. Makes a juicy killmail. -1 I think they are problematic on many other scales. T3 and capitals bring out the worst imbalances with them, but they are so much more effective than crystals, their shield counter-part. In modern fleets, local reps are a joke compared to RR. In modern solo, many people fly armor buffer, so applicable there. Hmm, active armor? More armor HP to chew through, so more time for your reps to catch. Looks like they help almost every application of armor tanking, vs only helping subcap local tanks for crystals, and so to balance the two somewhat, reducing the raw power advantage of slaves is not unreasonable. That said, I like juicy pods, and want to keep being able to find them with slaves in, so I want them to continue to be valuable, without being over powered. How is that for a desire? Shield caps are already much better than armor caps and the main reason armor caps are still being used is inertia. You can't mix doctrines and if you already have 200 armor supercaps, well.....
Hakaari Inkuran State War Academy Caldari State 231	Posted - 2015.05.04 14:49:18 - [18] - Quote Just make them crystal clones, jesus. "Armor and shield must be different" should only really apply to subcaps. Its obvious that it just leads to a stupid imbalance at the capital ships level. What do you gain from such an imbalance?
Tyr Dolorem Snuff Box Snuffed Out 49	Posted - 2015.05.04 16:00:27 - [19] - Quote No thanks tia.
Mr Digs Snuff Box Snuffed Out 21	Posted - 2015.05.04 16:01:14 - [20] - Quote Tyr Dolorem wrote: No thanks tia. No Thanks.

Heidi Beldrulf Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2015.05.04 16:01:49 - [21] - Quote Instead of nerfing things why don't you ask CCP for shield HP implants.
Soldarius Naliao Inc. Test Alliance Please Ignore 1264	Posted - 2015.05.04 16:47:37 - [22] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: You can talk about reducing the buffer advantage of armor tanks when shields stop regenerating on their own. Plz. Passive regen is a joke for anything except PvE. Besides, armor has about 6 resistance and buffer options. While half of the shield options are focused on passive regen, and require you to literally sacrifice every slot on your ship except weapons but including dps mods to utilize them. And at least one of those (Shield Flux Coils) is complete trash. And we won't even get into the sigRad bloom from extenders and shield rigs. Armor has so many advantages over shields its not even funny. http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
WarFireV Blackwater USA Inc. Pandemic Legion 413	Posted - 2015.05.04 17:11:10 - [23] - Quote If you want to get into a Shield vs Armor debate, that is really a different topic altogether. As for Slaves? You want to nerf something next to no one uses? why? I mean they might get a little bit more use then most of the implate sets, but not by much. Only armor supers and blinged out carebears use HG slave sets. Shield supers already have more EHP compared to armor even with slave sets so I don't get that argument and most carebears would actually be better off using a different implate set. The only thing that leaves are wormhole people who might use slave sets because most wormholes tend to over bling their T3s and that is about as niche as it can get. Majority of other small gang people who do use implates regularly, use nomad or crystal sets.
Xequecal GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 285	Posted - 2015.05.04 17:20:45 - [24] - Quote Shield supercaps (technically, regular caps do too if you pack deadspace **** on them, but that's not worth it) have more EHP than armor supercaps do even with a full slave set plugged in. I have no idea why anyone is complaining about slaves. An A-type EANM increases your EHP by 54.77%. An A-type invulnerability field increases your EHP by 88.125%, AND you can overload it. Even if for some reason you only have a single hardener on your supercap, you're already getting more EHP than slaves provide by overloading that one hardener.
lord xavier Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel 62	Posted - 2015.05.04 17:21:20 - [25] - Quote James Baboli wrote: Slave sets are one of those thing which everyone knows about, and which have a major shifting influence on the sandbox, but which no one really seems to talk about much. Like many things which have been with us since the early days of eve, they have had an enormous effect on what doctrines and playstyles emerged. The ability for armor tanks to add more than 50% of their base HP in armor without a single concession on the fitting, in a way which scales absolutely with buffer mods, rigs and so on, is far more powerful in the modern eve era than the shield boost bonus that crystal sets give. That this extends to capitals, unlike crystal sets, just tips them further over the line. I think it is time to tone them down. Overall, I would like to see slave sets effectiveness dropped to approximately: HG: 32% MG: 26% LG 18% I would prefer to accomplish this by reducing primarily the per implant set bonus, and slightly reducing the HP bonus on slots 3-5, to 2.5%, 3% and 3.5% respectively. Why: Armor capitals are too tough relative to shield capitals, and this helps even that out. Buffer bonuses are inherently more powerful than rep bonuses with modern fleet sizes for fleet combat. Oversized plates and slave synergize unfortunately well on t3s, HACs and other cruisers with the space for large plates. It makes finding a competitive shield doctrine easier, and I like shield doctrines. Why change an implant set that isnt broken. The only thing broken is how there is not a Shield set to copy what the Slaves do. Which I think they tried to fix a few years back during the HP nerf on supers. Though I am not 100% certain on that. This makes the use of shield capitals less likely do to the less buffer. Especially in regards to crystals being absolutely useless on capital shield boosters that supers already do not use. This is why armor capitals have the advantage over shield as there is not an implant set to mimic the same results. Slaves are also not used in every super. Depending on the use of the capital, other implants tend to prove more useful.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1150	Posted - 2015.05.04 19:30:00 - [26] - Quote Xequecal wrote: Shield supercaps (technically, regular caps do too if you pack deadspace **** on them, but that's not worth it) have more EHP than armor supercaps do even with a full slave set plugged in. I have no idea why anyone is complaining about slaves. An A-type EANM increases your EHP by 54.77%. An A-type invulnerability field increases your EHP by 88.125%, AND you can overload it. Even if for some reason you only have a single hardener on your supercap, you're already getting more EHP than slaves provide by overloading that one hardener. Wouldn't one expect this given it is active vs passive module? That ENAM still works if you're capped out. A better compare would be the passive mods vs passive mods. But perhaps redundant...things are just different.
Mag's the united 19375	Posted - 2015.05.04 19:43:06 - [27] - Quote Sorry but I'm having a hard time agreeing with the OP. I don't see much of an issue with them tbh. Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
FireFrenzy Satan's Unicorns 350	Posted - 2015.05.05 10:52:58 - [28] - Quote Baboli you know i like you but i am throughy unconvinced about your central premise... "want to find shield docterines" have you missed the tengu's and ishtars everywhere? I get they make titans rather tanky but a leviathan with a full rack of power diagnostics in the lows has the same redonculous EHP pool as avatars and erebuses... Its amazing how the math works out when you can fit Brick HP in one set of slots and resists in an entirely different set of slots... Now if your case had been something like "slave sets are excellent even on shield boats" then i might have listened to your case but your current series of arguments are thoroughly lacking to (atleast) my examination. And on shieldboats you prolly want sig radius or aligntime anyways, although on titans and supers i see why you'd default to HG slaves all day every day... Also Solo marauders with XL ASB with crystals also seem HILARIOUSLY imba and active tanked hyperions are still hilarious no matter what people say for soloing
Jenshae Chiroptera 1470	Posted - 2015.05.05 11:01:22 - [29] - Quote Rather have a shield and hull bonus set of implants. CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids . High Sec needs a stepping stone to other areas of space, where they can grow Fozzie is treating a symptom.
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 624	Posted - 2015.05.05 14:18:50 - [30] - Quote Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Rather have a shield and hull bonus set of implants. This. Not much hate for the slaves. not their fault ccp is not expanding the range. For shields To be honest I'd even be open to the caveat of some sig radius hit to these to get them. True passive already hits this hard...whats a few more meters really to sig. if you wanted to be slim and skinny sig wise you'd crystal it with active tank. Hull tanking be an interesting option. Ole boy sees shields melt, thinks aww yeah. Sees armour getting tore up....smells the blood. Then hits the wall of hull hp and goes wtf.....

James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 603	Posted - 2015.05.05 15:17:17 - [31] - Quote Zan Shiro wrote: Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Rather have a shield and hull bonus set of implants. This. Not much hate for the slaves. not their fault ccp is not expanding the range. For shields To be honest I'd even be open to the caveat of some sig radius hit to these to get them. True passive already hits this hard...whats a few more meters really to sig. if you wanted to be slim and skinny sig wise you'd crystal it with active tank. Hull tanking be an interesting option. Ole boy sees shields melt, thinks aww yeah. Sees armour getting tore up....smells the blood. Then hits the wall of hull hp and goes wtf..... yeah, but 400k+ EHP megas in hull would be absolutely infuriating. So, to those going "Don't nerf slaves, add shield+hull buffer implants or buff crystals" is anyone willing to put a set of numbers down to open that discussion? Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp
Openus Legimus Caldari Provisions Caldari State 0	Posted - 2015.05.30 23:34:45 - [32] - Quote Your main premise is that slaves sets are broken and have had a major affect on Eve, thus they need to changed/nerfed. This premise is incorrect, thus your everything that follows it is null. Slaves have had very little affect on Eve and how Eve is played. 1. High grade slave sets only make consistent appearances in super pods. It hasn't broken super warfare. Outside of this you won't normally find slave sets in any fleet comps or doctrines or even in solo heads. Too many ways for a pod to die. 2. High grade slaves are used rarely with active tanked no buffer solo ships like the Hyperion to make up for their lack of buffer. Solo has all of the cards stacked against it anyway. Additionally this has had 0 affect on Eve, doctrines, or related metas. 3. High grade slaves are used more commonly with pirate battleships in small and midsized low sec gangs (Bhaalgorns, Vindicators) because you get more bang for your bug due to the EHP, because of the need the enemy has to get them off the field, the cost of the BS and its desire to be protected etc. This hasn't broken the game and has had very little affect on the game. BS, even slaved faction BS still get destroyed blap dreads, and plenty of other things. They aren't invulnerable and the slaves aren't causing people to sit around and try to figure out a counter for them (Ishtars anyone?) These are 99% of their current uses in Eve Online, and in none of these examples are people sitting around talking about how broken they are, on either side. I think you had a bad experience with a small gang who was all in slaves (like Exodus flying only snake heads) and now have a skewed view of Eve. If you had tried to make a different point, with a different premise, perhaps that a general balance was necessary because some things about implants, and which implants exist doesn't make sense, and could overall be better implemented, then you could have made that point, and it would have had some merit. As it stands, high grade slaves are not having the negative and imba impact on the game you think they are.
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 14	Posted - 2015.05.31 01:34:25 - [33] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: Both implant sets are hardly comparable as they function in starkly different setups. Crystals have no use in big fleet fights and are not used in these scenarios. Slaves work well in fleets, but are not used in big fleets, especially not HG or MG, as their cost is prohibitive to the high likelihood of losing your capsule. Slaves on small and medium fleet doctrines like Low sec Sacrileges and Absolutions only work because you cannot lose your capsule. Slaves on caps can be seen as problematic, but as this is only one small group of ships compared to, for instance, where Crystals are very effective (Solo Tengus, Shield Boosting Marauders, Sleipnirs, etc pp.), I don't really see a need to change Slaves. Instead of reducing Slave effects, call for the introduction of a Shield Buffer set and Armor Repair set. Agreed.
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 14	Posted - 2015.05.31 01:37:18 - [34] - Quote James Baboli wrote: Slave sets are one of those thing which everyone knows about, and which have a major shifting influence on the sandbox, but which no one really seems to talk about much. Like many things which have been with us since the early days of eve, they have had an enormous effect on what doctrines and playstyles emerged. The ability for armor tanks to add more than 50% of their base HP in armor without a single concession on the fitting, in a way which scales absolutely with buffer mods, rigs and so on, is far more powerful in the modern eve era than the shield boost bonus that crystal sets give. That this extends to capitals, unlike crystal sets, just tips them further over the line. I think it is time to tone them down. Overall, I would like to see slave sets effectiveness dropped to approximately: HG: 32% MG: 26% LG 18% I would prefer to accomplish this by reducing primarily the per implant set bonus, and slightly reducing the HP bonus on slots 3-5, to 2.5%, 3% and 3.5% respectively. Why: Armor capitals are too tough relative to shield capitals, and this helps even that out. Buffer bonuses are inherently more powerful than rep bonuses with modern fleet sizes for fleet combat. Oversized plates and slave synergize unfortunately well on t3s, HACs and other cruisers with the space for large plates. It makes finding a competitive shield doctrine easier, and I like shield doctrines. If they lower the cost of implants sets by 50% then maybe, but I seriously doubt that would happen, so I disagree. -1
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 14	Posted - 2015.05.31 01:40:04 - [35] - Quote Catherine Laartii wrote: To be completely fair to armor users everywhere, shield already gets a base hp buff from just the skills, so having a slave set isn't to unbalanced. It's just the natural outcome from armor boats with hp bonuses or high resists that they gain so much ehp. Slaves just have a tendency to be used on higher-level armor boats simply because they can sport such high natural resists, and it's easier to fit for them than shields are. That said, I do support your idea with reducing their effectiveness. Cruiser and battlecruiser hulls reaching over a half a million ehp is absurd. At the cost of 2.5 bill isk in implants. It's a fair trade off.
Dregalis DeGraiden Perkone Caldari State 0	Posted - 2015.05.31 01:50:06 - [36] - Quote Soldarius wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: You can talk about reducing the buffer advantage of armor tanks when shields stop regenerating on their own. Plz. Passive regen is a joke for anything except PvE. Besides, armor has about 6 resistance and buffer options. While half of the shield options are focused on passive regen, and require you to literally sacrifice every slot on your ship except weapons but including dps mods to utilize them. And at least one of those (Shield Flux Coils) is complete trash. And we won't even get into the sigRad bloom from extenders and shield rigs. Armor has so many advantages over shields its not even funny. My Crystal mid-grade set dual XL-ASB fitted Sleipnir disagree with you.
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 678	Posted - 2015.05.31 03:33:44 - [37] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: ...At the cost of 2.5 bill isk in implants. It's a fair trade off. Actually it's 6x 80 million isk + 80.000LP from the Blood Raider LP store. Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 14	Posted - 2015.05.31 03:48:55 - [38] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Daniela Doran wrote: ...At the cost of 2.5 bill isk in implants. It's a fair trade off. Actually it's 6x 80 million isk + 80.000LP from the Blood Raider LP store. I'm missing out on something here. Please fill me in elita..
FT Diomedes The Graduates Get Off My Lawn 1012	Posted - 2015.05.31 04:17:14 - [39] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Daniela Doran wrote: ...At the cost of 2.5 bill isk in implants. It's a fair trade off. Actually it's 6x 80 million isk + 80.000LP from the Blood Raider LP store. You are drastically off on how much a Slave set costs from the Sansha's LP store. Quote: http://www.ellatha.com/eve/lp/True-Power The Greatest Ship Ever. Credit to Shahfluffers.
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 14	Posted - 2015.05.31 07:48:53 - [40] - Quote FT Diomedes wrote: elitatwo wrote: Daniela Doran wrote: ...At the cost of 2.5 bill isk in implants. It's a fair trade off. Actually it's 6x 80 million isk + 80.000LP from the Blood Raider LP store. You are drastically off on how much a Slave set costs from the Sansha's LP store. Quote: http://www.ellatha.com/eve/lp/True-Power Which is??

Valkin Mordirc 1074	Posted - 2015.05.31 08:28:57 - [41] - Quote Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Rather have a shield and hull bonus set of implants. As nice as that would be, Shield and Armor are suppose to be different with there own weakness and strengths this would minimize this gap. `#DeleteTheWeak`
FT Diomedes The Graduates Get Off My Lawn 1012	Posted - 2015.05.31 08:58:38 - [42] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: FT Diomedes wrote: elitatwo wrote: Daniela Doran wrote: ...At the cost of 2.5 bill isk in implants. It's a fair trade off. Actually it's 6x 80 million isk + 80.000LP from the Blood Raider LP store. You are drastically off on how much a Slave set costs from the Sansha's LP store. Quote: http://www.ellatha.com/eve/lp/True-Power Which is?? 590,625 LP + 590,625,000 ISK + approximately 125m worth of implants = cost of High-Grade Slave Set Just going with the Omega: currently selling in Jita for 989,880,000 ISK. To get an Omega, you need 267,750 LP + 267,750,000 ISK + 120m implant. Which means that Sansha's LP is worth about 2230 ISK per LP. The Greatest Ship Ever. Credit to Shahfluffers.
Haatakan Reppola Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 16	Posted - 2015.05.31 11:11:20 - [43] - Quote Ncc 1709 wrote: your first example there is supers... how their ehp gets buffed out of proportion. you know at the present moment, the wyvern has the highest tank and dps combo going. the wyvern DPS fit, has 33.7m ehp. Max tank fit is 39.7m ehp (slaves for giggles pushes 42.7m ehp) a nyx with full tank fit AND SLAVES, has 28.8m ehp add gang links... Wyvern Max DPS 40.8m ehp, Max tank 48.1m ehp (52m ehp with slave) Nyx max tank 35.7m ehp Aeon max tank 52m ehp Dps comparison Wyvern DPS fit, 9894 Aeon tank fit 5600 Nyx Tank fit, 7050 to get similar dps,(approx 9 - 10k) the nyx drops down to 24m ehp the aeon to 31m ehp so please tell me where slave sets are breaking capitals Those numbers for tank fit is not 100% correct. Wyvren using all mid/low/rig having HG slave and max warfare links (commandship) and active resists get around 41m EHP Aeon using all mid/low/rig having HG slaves and warfare links and active resists (to get a real comparison) get around 50m EHP Overloading we get 82m EHP for Wyvren and 85m+ for Aeon, ofc without slaves its ALOT lower for Aeon (57.7m) and barely any change for Wyvren (81m) Biggest issue i have here is that you use ALL slots for tank on the Wyvren to show how much EHP it can get, while limiting Aeon to only low/rig. Comparing a 15 slot active tank to a 11 slot passive tank! How much EHP do you get on a Wyvren with passive tank and only using mid/rig slots?
Caleb Seremshur Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance 553	Posted - 2015.05.31 12:58:58 - [44] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Expect to see a call for a reduction with Crystal implants as well... Why? Slaves scale with links and remote reps. Crystals don't. Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
Caleb Seremshur Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance 553	Posted - 2015.05.31 14:10:23 - [45] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: You can talk about reducing the buffer advantage of armor tanks when shields stop regenerating on their own. How many specific examples are there where shield regen was the single point of failure for an offence on a shield ship? Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
Christopher Mabata The Interstellar Manipulation Consortium 349	Posted - 2015.05.31 17:31:27 - [46] - Quote I generally dont subscribe to "because its expensive it has to be good" ideas, I try not to let a ships cost determine whether or not it should be better or worse than it is in my opinions. But slaves are the one time i disagree with that and believe they should be, not because of cost, because of the meta Specifically the Armor VS Shield Meta and how it works Armor is for raw Buffer, maximum long term staying power, slaves allow this on certain ships, especially supercapitals, capitals, and T3's. And i dont think this should be taken away. I mean Look at crystal implants, fitting those to the right build can double your tank the same way the slaves double buffer, but nobody complains about crystals because of the meta and their lower volume of use, not to mention shield tanks can be nueted and come with higher sig radius blooms. Just because something is popular dosn't mean it should be nerfed, so i respectfully disagree with you this time OP Theory-Crafter, Free Agent, Immortal Space Pirate. Generally Crazy and difficult to understand at times.
Haatakan Reppola Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 16	Posted - 2015.05.31 20:20:30 - [47] - Quote Christopher Mabata wrote: I generally dont subscribe to "because its expensive it has to be good" ideas, I try not to let a ships cost determine whether or not it should be better or worse than it is in my opinions. But slaves are the one time i disagree with that and believe they should be, not because of cost, because of the meta Specifically the Armor VS Shield Meta and how it works Armor is for raw Buffer, maximum long term staying power, slaves allow this on certain ships, especially supercapitals, capitals, and T3's. And i dont think this should be taken away. I mean Look at crystal implants, fitting those to the right build can double your tank the same way the slaves double buffer, but nobody complains about crystals because of the meta and their lower volume of use, not to mention shield tanks can be nueted and come with higher sig radius blooms. Just because something is popular dosn't mean it should be nerfed, so i respectfully disagree with you this time OP What your saying is that its ok with slaves since crystal exist. While also pointing out the niche use of crystal (for pvp) and the serious drawbacks of active shield tank. A very good "nerf" to slaves would be to fix capital shield modules, make the Chimera able to match Archon as a triage carrier without putting a SC worth of isk on the field.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2470	Posted - 2015.06.01 06:10:43 - [48] - Quote As capital ships are so much larger and more expensive than subcaps, I believe all of the one-size-fits-all items that can grant large bonuses to capital ships should have their effect on capital ships reduced. This would include hardeners, electronics upgrades like sensor boosters, weapon upgrades such as tracking computers, and even implants. How much should the effects be reduced? Easy: just enough that a more reasonable-costing variant (one of the deadspace or other high-grade units) has the same bonus for capital ships as the tech 2 or lower grade cheap variants have for subcapital ships. Some examples: -25% effectiveness of Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane and Adaptive Invulnerability Field Corelum B-Type EANM: 26.375% becomes 19.781% (T2 is 20%) Pithum C-Type AIF: 40.625% becomes 30.469% (T2 is 30%) -10% effectiveness of shield and armor hardeners because for some reason their deadspace counterparts are remarkably weak?? A-Type Armor or Pith A-Type Shield Hardener: 61.75% becomes 55.575% (T2 is 55%) or maybe deadspace hardeners could be buffed so the lower ones aren't complete junk. Then of course the overheat bonus would need tweaking so as to not make them overpowered when overheated. (For instance, if you overheat an X-type at 64%, it goes up to 76.8% which means the act of overheating it reduces incoming damage of that type by 35.556%. That is much higher than overheating a T1 AIF, for instance.) -10% effectiveness of sensor boosters Faction Sensor Booster: 32.5% becomes 29.25% (T2 is 30%) Brynn's Modified Sensor Booster: 34.125% becomes 30.713% (T2 is 30%) -25% damage mod on weapon upgrades Brynn's Mag Stab, Brokara's Heat Sink, Mizuro's Gyrostab, Kaikka's BCS: 13.125% becomes 9.844% (T2 is 10%) -35% armor hit points from slave implants If my calculations are correct: High Grade Slave Set: 45.256% becomes 29.416% (just under mid-grade) Mid Grade Slave Set: 30.197% becomes 19.628% (just over low-grade) Low Grade Slave Set: 18.668% becomes 12.134% I can't use Mozilla Firefox to post in the EVE Forums. Please help, CCP! I'm dying!
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2470	Posted - 2015.06.01 06:12:26 - [49] - Quote Christopher Mabata wrote: But slaves are the one time i disagree with that and believe they should be, not because of cost, because of the meta Specifically the Armor VS Shield Meta and how it works Armor is for raw Buffer, maximum long term staying power, slaves allow this on certain ships, especially supercapitals, capitals, and T3's. And i dont think this should be taken away. If armor buffers are supposed to be bigger than shield buffers, it should be put that way on the base hit points of the ship, and the implants should still offer the same percentage increase. I can't use Mozilla Firefox to post in the EVE Forums. Please help, CCP! I'm dying!
Anthar Thebess 1050	Posted - 2015.06.01 11:32:02 - [50] - Quote Again, supers and capitals without support are just sitting ducks. No difference if people use slaves or not. When super gets a fleet of RR carriers , EHP is not the issue but reps. Implant meta shifted very much after giving supers ability to jump the gates. Most of the super pilots are using Nomads or warp speed sets , as they are much more useful than slave set. (of course if someone have armor super he will have at least 2 clones with proper implants , one for aligning/ warp speed second using slaves , but the slave set is only "in case of next B-R") Capital Remote AID Rebalance Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.

Tappits North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion 91	Posted - 2015.06.01 11:44:49 - [51] - Quote James Baboli wrote: Slave sets are one of those thing which everyone knows about, and which have a major shifting influence on the sandbox, but which no one really seems to talk about much. Like many things which have been with us since the early days of eve, they have had an enormous effect on what doctrines and playstyles emerged. The ability for armor tanks to add more than 50% of their base HP in armor without a single concession on the fitting, in a way which scales absolutely with buffer mods, rigs and so on, is far more powerful in the modern eve era than the shield boost bonus that crystal sets give. That this extends to capitals, unlike crystal sets, just tips them further over the line. Make slaves like Crystals so they don't work on CAPS PLZ PLZ PLZ The tears will be so so so good i don't even think i have enough jars for them all. SHIELD FLEET #1 2015 Anthar Thebess wrote: Most of the super pilots are using Nomads or warp speed sets , as they are much more useful than slave set. (of course if someone have armor super he will have at least 2 clones with proper implants , one for aligning/ warp speed second using slaves , but the slave set is only "in case of next B-R") You know nothing Anthar Bess Haatakan Reppola wrote: make the Chimera able to match Archon as a triage carrier without putting a SC worth of isk on the field. It does all ready. Haatakan Reppola wrote: Those numbers for tank fit is not 100% correct. Wyvren using all mid/low/rig having HG slave If your flying a Wyvern and using Slaves/Nomads/CA-1to4 Then your doing it wrong.
Anthar Thebess 1051	Posted - 2015.06.01 12:59:02 - [52] - Quote I know that PL have big super fleet, and in every big fleet engagement you need to have proper slave set on armor super, but when it comes to a single super usage , people prefer to move faster and be more agile , as when someone catch them, they are simply dead , and it does not matter if they have full slave set or no. Capital Remote AID Rebalance Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
Haatakan Reppola Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 16	Posted - 2015.06.01 13:05:38 - [53] - Quote Tappits wrote: Haatakan Reppola wrote: make the Chimera able to match Archon as a triage carrier without putting a SC worth of isk on the field. It does all ready. Haatakan Reppola wrote: Those numbers for tank fit is not 100% correct. Wyvren using all mid/low/rig having HG slave If your flying a Wyvern and using Slaves/Nomads/CA-1to4 Then your doing it wrong. Your telling me a t2 fit Chimera match a t2 Arhcon for RR, local tank and capacitor? Saying it needed 20b to make it work may have been to much :P but i would still like to see a Chimera that can match a t2 fit Archon for RR/local tank/cap life and still be in the same price range The slave Wyvren was to match the number posted about its EHP, if you read the whole post i made i also stated that slaves do very little for the Wyvren. Note: Im not for nerfing Slaves, i made a comment about someone comparing apples to oranges (passive 11 slot buffer vs active 15 slot buffer).Then i made a suggestion to buff capital shield modules, mainly need a fix for fitting.
Anthar Thebess 1052	Posted - 2015.06.01 13:12:33 - [54] - Quote Haatakan Reppola wrote: All sets are different. Slave, Nomads, Crystals , etc are actually useful. What we need is to put balance in others by creating new niche roles. Slave : boosting ehp for armor ships - used mostly in PVP Nomads : faster align for big ships ... those freighters warping of before frigate can lock and scan them. Crystals : maxing your shield active tank on PVE or while putting your Vargur on top of bunch of noobs Capital Remote AID Rebalance Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
Tappits North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion 92	Posted - 2015.06.03 23:36:03 - [55] - Quote Haatakan Reppola wrote: Tappits wrote: Haatakan Reppola wrote: make the Chimera able to match Archon as a triage carrier without putting a SC worth of isk on the field. It does all ready. Haatakan Reppola wrote: Those numbers for tank fit is not 100% correct. Wyvren using all mid/low/rig having HG slave If your flying a Wyvern and using Slaves/Nomads/CA-1to4 Then your doing it wrong. Your telling me a t2 fit Chimera match a t2 Arhcon for RR, local tank and capacitor? Saying it needed 20b to make it work may have been to much :P but i would still like to see a Chimera that can match a t2 fit Archon for RR/local tank/cap life and still be in the same price range The slave Wyvren was to match the number posted about its EHP, if you read the whole post i made i also stated that slaves do very little for the Wyvren. Note: Im not for nerfing Slaves, i made a comment about someone comparing apples to oranges (passive 11 slot buffer vs active 15 slot buffer).Then i made a suggestion to buff capital shield modules, mainly need a fix for fitting. Shield cost more to do well but when you spend the isk on them there really good. i have a fit (around 2.5bill in mods and rigs) that will out tank a dead space fit meta rep max tank armor triage before even changing to tank fit. Shield is just so much better at burst tanking compared to armor. its just when people eft them it looks like its crap but there in fact quite good when used properly and you understand what you need to do to make it work There is also a prob with a set of T1 rigs you can get for the armor triage that you cannot get for the shield triage so it meens you end up haveinf to fit T2 rigs (i use ccc's) to try and catch up. but its nbd 2nd big cost point is there are no shield EANM's so were you might be spending 100 mill each on a cupple of them on the armor fits you need to spend 300 mill each on 2 nice invuns... other than that its just meta reps and implants but that's the same costs on both.... so its ~1bill on rigs more and 400mill more getting 2 nice invuns over nice EANM's if people are slave implanting wyverns by default you don't deserve wyvenrs. Wyverns can get the 2nd biggest EHP in the game after Levis... there is nothing up with shield supers. Shield supers don't need a buff Shield caps would be better with like 3%-5% more CPU so you can full T2 fit them like there armor bros
vikari Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Nulli Secunda 123	Posted - 2015.06.04 00:13:06 - [56] - Quote I do believe that Slave implant set should not effect capitals, supers and titans. Just like the Crystal implant set doesn't. Doing that change would require CCP to adjust the raw armor numbers of the gallente and amarr ships, but I feel that would be the best way to address Slave implants and their effect on the meta. After all who flies an armor tanked super/titan without a slave implant set? Sucks they are basically forced into one implant set to be competitive.
Haatakan Reppola Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 19	Posted - 2015.06.04 02:08:24 - [57] - Quote Tappits wrote: 2nd big cost point is there are no shield EANM's so were you might be spending 100 mill each on a cupple of them on the armor fits you need to spend 300 mill each on 2 nice invuns... other than that its just meta reps and implants but that's the same costs on both.... so its ~1bill on rigs more and 400mill more getting 2 nice invuns over nice EANM's if people are slave implanting wyverns by default you don't deserve wyvenrs. Wyverns can get the 2nd biggest EHP in the game after Levis... there is nothing up with shield supers. Shield supers don't need a buff Shield caps would be better with like 3%-5% more CPU so you can full T2 fit them like there armor bros So we agree that you need to spend more to get comparable numbers on a shield carrier (1.4b or about the hull cost extra) AND we agree that shield could use some help with fitting. I dont get why people keep quoting me and say that Wyvrens should not use slaves, READ THE DAMN POSTS where i say it myself that i dont think they should use it!
Tappits North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion 92	Posted - 2015.06.04 22:12:56 - [58] - Quote Haatakan Reppola wrote: So we agree that you need to spend more to get comparable numbers on a shield carrier (1.4b or about the hull cost extra) AND we agree that shield could use some help with fitting. I dont get why people keep quoting me and say that Wyvrens should not use slaves, READ THE DAMN POSTS where i say it myself that i dont think they should use it! Not really if you just go for a scrub T2 fit with scrub T1 CCCGÇÖs like most bad people do in eve on both ships then the shield one can overload its tank for a higher 4-5 min burst tank and the armor versions will tank less but are a bit more capstable if tanking for longer than one triage cycle. So pretty normal when you compare them to everything else. Wyverns should not need slaves..... aeons don't NEED slaves 99% of the time ether. its just alot of big blocks would rather have max HP brink tanks as they normally always uses in big coalitions/Alliance Fleets so fitting any other implants would not make sense. shield on the other hand does not have this burden so you regularly see nomad implanted hels and rags and a few hyper max warp speed implanted stuff depending on what the pilot like to do in them.
Haatakan Reppola Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 20	Posted - 2015.06.04 22:38:36 - [59] - Quote Tappits wrote: Haatakan Reppola wrote: So we agree that you need to spend more to get comparable numbers on a shield carrier (1.4b or about the hull cost extra) AND we agree that shield could use some help with fitting. I dont get why people keep quoting me and say that Wyvrens should not use slaves, READ THE DAMN POSTS where i say it myself that i dont think they should use it! Not really if you just go for a scrub T2 fit with scrub T1 CCCGÇÖs like most bad people do in eve on both ships then the shield one can overload its tank for a higher 4-5 min burst tank and the armor versions will tank less but are a bit more capstable if tanking for longer than one triage cycle. So pretty normal when you compare them to everything else. You are still ignoring the fact that YOU said that a chimera carrier need another 1.4b in fitting to get comparable numbers to an archon. After insurance what is the total cost diffrence? (SRP dont count since that is still isk someone pay for it) Lacking fitting on shield carriers + the need for active resist mods = it cost alot more to field shield carriers (unless you happy with a weaker armor carrier)
Tappits North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion 94	Posted - 2015.06.05 09:31:13 - [60] - Quote Haatakan Reppola wrote: You are still ignoring the fact that YOU said that a chimera carrier need another 1.4b in fitting to get comparable numbers to an archon. After insurance what is the total cost diffrence? (SRP dont count since that is still isk someone pay for it) LetGÇÖs make it so everything is the same as everything else and remove all roles specialities from everything and let everything be the same. Yes a chim will cost more than an armor triage if you fit the armor triage to do something that shield ships do not excel at but then you could fit the shield in a way shield tanks excel at and the armor triage will be left behind/would need excessive isk to make it comparable to the shield one in that role. That seems quite balanced to me.

Haatakan Reppola Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 25	Posted - 2015.06.05 17:11:34 - [61] - Quote Tappits wrote: Haatakan Reppola wrote: You are still ignoring the fact that YOU said that a chimera carrier need another 1.4b in fitting to get comparable numbers to an archon. After insurance what is the total cost diffrence? (SRP dont count since that is still isk someone pay for it) LetGÇÖs make it so everything is the same as everything else and remove all roles specialities from everything and let everything be the same. Yes a chim will cost more than an armor triage if you fit the armor triage to do something that shield ships do not excel at but then you could fit the shield in a way shield tanks excel at and the armor triage will be left behind/would need excessive isk to make it comparable to the shield one in that role. That seems quite balanced to me. Entry level fit (T2) for a triage carrier should be around the same for armor and shield, when 1 need faction mods to fit a decent local tank/cap life there should be some changes. Give shield carriers more CPU and lower the CPU use on shield mods and we are close to something
Tappits North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion 96	Posted - 2015.06.05 23:56:53 - [62] - Quote Haatakan Reppola wrote: Entry level fit (T2) for a triage carrier should be around the same for armor and shield, when 1 need faction mods to fit a decent local tank/cap life there should be some changes. Give shield carriers more CPU and lower the CPU use on shield mods and we are close to something So you would like scrub T2 fit triage to be more effective than they all ready are? We are not on about just some scrub fit T1 BS here we are on about a force multiplayer that can decide the fates of bill's of isk worth of ships. if your just T2 fitting them you don't deserve the benefits of been cap stable with your reppers running flat out for a whole triage cycle and been cap stable while RRing people. All i would like to see is the same rig choices for both armor and shield as at the mo the rigs are what make armor better than shield nothing really to do with shield hardeners. Also we have gone off topic far to long back to Implants (slaves) affecting caps and supers.. TBH its all balanced in terms of supers. no one i know is like... wow having to have slaves to have 50mill EHP is such a drag i wish they would remove them so i can have 30mill ehp but be able to have a set of plus 5's in. but saying that i don't use slaves in my supers so what ever..


Pages: 1 2 3 :: [one page]

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.