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Amarr Battleships are Weak (Now with Math and No Flaming [I hope])

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Emeline Cabernet Amarr KVA Noble Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.10 04:55:00 - [91] oh and god please god tell the noobs that tachyon is a tier higher than 425 and 1400.. even god old nerfbat tom-b said it. mega beam = 1400 = 425 amarr are gods of guns, therefor we got tachyon.
Aeaus Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.10 05:11:00 - [92] Originally by: Santiak ... Thank you for your insightful post, I choose to avoid the issue of versitility since many posters on EVEO do not concern themselves with the basic facts of having drawbacks (ie people who tell me a Sniper Megathron is hard to fit while I could fit one with an Omni Passive Tank and a full rack of largest weapons with all the additional requirements of a sniper with full Tech II gear) in relationship to the competiting races and furthermore questioning why we even should be competitive when they simply read the topic and form their opinions on what they know already. Oftentimes peoples perceptions are biased due to lack of knowledge and lack of will to even try to understand the issue being presented. The issue of versitility is more complex then simply guns, fitting, etc and it involves experienced and intelligent people to create a good setup. Yes, Amarr are gimped in the versitility department, and yes we suffer. But at least some corrections to make the core of our race competitive will be enough to fix the glaring Amarr misbalance. Last Weeks Signature
Swiftness Caldari VMF-214 Blacksheep	Posted - 2006.11.10 05:57:00 - [93] Do you think the upcoming ECM nerf (less ECM -> more shield tanks, shield-tanked ravens at least) and new shield tanked battleships will make it easier for amarr BS pilots in small gang pvp action ?
Wizie Minmatar Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.11.10 06:18:00 - [94] I am not quite sure if you mentioned this... You have posted a long drawn out discussion of 1400s/425s and mega beams.. Then talked about tanking And finally about smart people fitting tanks on there ships. However, from 95% of fleet fights I've participated in, the majority of ships do not fit shield hardners or omni tanks (or whatever it is you were talking about). Amarr are fine, what isn't is the overuse of eanm mods and what it does to em resists. After Kali however, the boost to hitpoints is going to affect not only Amarr but almost every other race... some might even argue harder. ----------------- Sig removed by some noob
Nifel Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.10 06:34:00 - [95] Originally by: Aeaus Not every single BS Gang Fight is necessary a hundred man fleet shooting annother hundred man fleet. In a smaller engagement at range that omni tank WILL help you survive longer. I'm not questioning it'll help you in skirmishes. But you were talking about fleet fights. Someone commented that you don't generally fit omnitanks in fleet fights because they don't help much, and the tactical gain is small in most circumstances. Which is true. Solo -> Skirmish -> Bigger skirmish -> Fleet fight -> Humongously big fleet fight -> Mothership fight -> Titan fight -> e-peen fight ^^;. "When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) Sama
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.10 06:51:00 - [96] Edited by: Goumindong on 10/11/2006 06:53:31 Passive tanks are just as important in fleet battles as are damage mods. A EAN/DC setup will make the damage taker survive "2x" as long in a fleet setup. OR, if that amount of tanking is irrelevent, then so is the +35% or so damage from 2-3 damage mods. Fitting a tank[passive] is more important in a fleet situation and will improve your fleets odds at all times more than damage. As tanks will increase the time you live more than damage decreases the time opponents die. So yea, tanks are pretty important in fleet setups. This can be seen easily enough by examining the amount of damage a tank does versus a gank Tank Deals 1 damage, takes 1/2 damage Gank, deals 1.40 damage, takes 1 damage Tank shoots gank, deals 1 damage Gank shoots tank, deals .7 damage If you cant gank and tank, then tanking is more important than damage
Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2006.11.10 07:44:00 - [97] Edited by: Happster on 10/11/2006 07:56:24 Edited by: Happster on 10/11/2006 07:48:08 Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 09/11/2006 21:26:24 Originally by: Happster Anyway....now when combats is gonna last even longer.....i think your cap bonus should be upped some. To increase HP, and not your cap bonus, will nerf your weapons a lot. So something needs to be done. But im sure CCP will do something about that when Kali enters.... according to the last devchat tux thinks that its a good thing that some ships will be at a cap-disadvantage after the hp-boost. so i assume he either believes amarr to be too powerful or hasnt thought these changes through. take your pick. Ok.....that i agree on is rubbish....Everyone know some fixing is needed. Originally by: Happster Hehe...one thing i really had a blast at....you whined about you had to have so much isk in ammo......got a news flash for you.... You do know you dont have to fill up all your cargo with ammo :P somehow i dont think you understand why amarr have to pay more for their t2 ammo than other races. atm each crystal equals 1000 rounds of ammo. ever tried to split a crystal in 2 parts? you will notice its not possible. if you want to use 1 set of long and 1 set of shortrange t2 ammo on an apoc or abaddon you will need 16 crystals for a total worth of 16000 shots. compare this to the new maelstrom with 8x artillery cannons. would you bring 16000 pieces of ammo there? Hehe....wouldnt be able to fit 16k ammo of our type in our cargo :P But if its just an isk issue you got with your ammo type i honestly dont see the problem. And well....with the RoF, clips size and loading time on Artillery, 16k ammo would last a long war :P With AC's its a completely other issue.....Maelstrom with AC's will burn out 16k ammo in no time... Originally by: Happster When thinking of your ammo, you should prise yourself that your Amarr and not Minmatar.... Minnies problem is they cant have enough ammo in cargo to last a long fight :P actually i would gladly trade the capuse of our guns for the need to use ammo. besides with the abaddon amarrians will need ammo. only our ammo needs more space than minmatar one and is called cap booster charges. Well....try fit both our ammo and cap boosters in a Malestrom AC.....im pretty sure both our ammo and cap boosters would last less then yours:P As Amarr is supose to be the Armor tanking race number one, it would have been fun if your ships could passiv tank armor in some way. Im not saying you should be able to tank armor totally, but would help a lot if it could help on your tanking.... Then the cap usage on your weapons wouldnt matter so much, and you would have your role as the uber tankers
Dristra Amarr Idle Haven	Posted - 2006.11.10 13:32:00 - [98] Those that argue so hard that amarr are fine and do not need a boost, do you even acknowledge the fact that to use the guns that require us to use fitting mods, we have sacrificed a ship bonus? I cannot see why people would have problems seeing that amarr as a race perform very poorly in almost every aspect of the game: Amarr is sub-pair at ratting, very bad at electronic warfare, and lack flexibility in a pvp situation where pure tank and gank rarely cut it. It's great being Amarr isn't it.
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.10 13:37:00 - [99] Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 10/11/2006 13:40:14 Originally by: Happster As Amarr is supose to be the Armor tanking race number one, it would have been fun if your ships could passiv tank armor in some way. Im not saying you should be able to tank armor totally, but would help a lot if it could help on your tanking.... Then the cap usage on your weapons wouldnt matter so much, and you would have your role as the uber tankers the main problem there is that tanking with cap hungry weapons just doesnt work very well. and i dont really see an easy way to fix that. atm i would prefer it if our tankers got an armor resist bonus (most have it already) and a damage or range bonus for lasers. then add unbonused launcher hardpoints so we can actually tank with 0-cap weapons without using projectiles. this way there would at least be some reason to fit lasers on those ships for some situations while still providing the chance to actually fit a good tank for others. edit: also add a lot more cap and shift more shield towards armor
Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2006.11.10 14:55:00 - [100] Edited by: Happster on 10/11/2006 15:07:22 Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 10/11/2006 13:40:14 Originally by: Happster As Amarr is supose to be the Armor tanking race number one, it would have been fun if your ships could passiv tank armor in some way. Im not saying you should be able to tank armor totally, but would help a lot if it could help on your tanking.... Then the cap usage on your weapons wouldnt matter so much, and you would have your role as the uber tankers the main problem there is that tanking with cap hungry weapons just doesnt work very well. and i dont really see an easy way to fix that. atm i would prefer it if our tankers got an armor resist bonus (most have it already) and a damage or range bonus for lasers. then add unbonused launcher hardpoints so we can actually tank with 0-cap weapons without using projectiles. this way there would at least be some reason to fit lasers on those ships for some situations while still providing the chance to actually fit a good tank for others. edit: also add a lot more cap and shift more shield towards armor Ok..we both agree Amarr has issues Sure you can make your guns use less cap....but what will that result in? Yes, just making your guns more like everyone else. And removing Amarr from being special. I like having each race have their special strenght...... That makes it a reason to pick them. And an it will also open for more strategicly choises.... From day one i started EVE, ive allways heard Amarr is the big tankers..... But as i learned more of game i see the flaws in that. Because of your weapons, you have cap issues....And therefor also tanking issues..... What i would love to see is that Amarr ships would need very very litle cap to run armor repping. And maybe more cap to run your guns This could be done as you say by res or some passive armor tanking or something alike that.... This way you actually become the tankers....the role ive allways heard you should have but dont Instead of your cap bonus, you should have a bonus for repping armor, that would reduce the cap needed for repping by a lot
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.10 16:08:00 - [101] Originally by: Happster Sure you can make your guns use less cap....but what will that result in? Yes, just making your guns more like everyone else. And removing Amarr from being special. I like having each race have their special strenght...... i agree: lasers should have higher cap cost than hybrids. but they should not be so utterly gimped that they need a shipbonus to lvl4 or 5 just to be useful. maybe reduce the cap need of laser a bit (20-25%) and increase the effectiveness of the controlled burst skill (would also affect hybrids). in the end lasers should still use more cap than hybrids though. i would avoid the whole lasers and tank problem by just giving our tankers some launcher hardpoint so they can use a capless weapon system when they go for a good tank. the damage will not nearly rival the caldari missile ships because they would not get a bonus to launchers. now if you want to have a reason to actually fit lasers on a ship you need to provide a real bonus to lasers. something like 5% damage or 10% optimal for example. given enough base cap those bonuses can make lasers work in damage or sniper mode even without a laser cap use bonus. add a resistance bonus for a good passive tank in laser-mode and a really good active tank in launcher mode and your done. if a ship has no bonus to lasers at all or only the crappy -10% cap use one then there arent all that many reasons to fit lasers instead of projectiles or hybrids regardless of whether or not you're trying to tank.
Godar Marak Amarr Return Of Red Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.10 16:18:00 - [102] Edited by: Godar Marak on 10/11/2006 16:18:41 Originally by: Roxanna Kell Amarr's are meant to be Weak, read the chronicles. they spend their time praying to god, instead of going to training ; p Oh, so thats why the Amarr empire IS THE BIGGEST OF THEM ALL? And why they were the first to invent jump gates See, I took your argument and beat you over the head with it -------------------- \0/\0/\0/\0/\0/ Cant we all just get along? Wheres EVE heading?
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.11.10 16:29:00 - [103] Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne the main problem there is that tanking with cap hungry weapons just doesnt work very well. and i dont really see an easy way to fix that. atm i would prefer it if our tankers got an armor resist bonus (most have it already) and a damage or range bonus for lasers. then add unbonused launcher hardpoints so we can actually tank with 0-cap weapons without using projectiles. this way there would at least be some reason to fit lasers on those ships for some situations while still providing the chance to actually fit a good tank for others. edit: also add a lot more cap and shift more shield towards armor Agreed 100%. Good tanking requires cap. Lasers and Cap don't mix. If we could use missiles or had a lens with 95% cap reduction lasers and tanking may become viable. Till then, zero cap use weapons rule for tanking. On another note: If megabeams are the equivalent to 1400mm and 425s then can we please increase the range on Megabeams so they can compete? Having comparable fitting and dps with MUCH MUCH less range is not balanced. Nyxus It's great being Amarr, ain't it?Ö Originally by: Tuxford I love how you guys can take stats from a test server that is few months out of date and then panic over them. Gee, wonder why..
Aeaus Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.10 18:12:00 - [104] Originally by: Wizie Amarr are fine, what isn't is the overuse of eanm mods and what it does to em resists. After Kali however, the boost to hitpoints is going to affect not only Amarr but almost every other race... some might even argue harder. [/quote We are not "fine," yes EANM Nerfs would go a long way to making us better, but we'd still have the same issues. DPS would still be comparable to Railguns at range and obviously weaker up close (but Blasters are meant to be powerful). By "fleet" I talk about 5-10 BSs and support. Yes, I used to be in BoB and know what a "fleet" there is, and in my newer corps it's a completely different ideal. Also, 2x more life is important considering lag in conventional (HUGE) fleet battles, could mean the difference between death and getting out in low armor. Last Weeks Signature
Kasak Black The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.11.10 18:29:00 - [105] Originally by: Godar Marak Edited by: Godar Marak on 10/11/2006 16:18:41 Originally by: Roxanna Kell Amarr's are meant to be Weak, read the chronicles. they spend their time praying to god, instead of going to training ; p Oh, so thats why the Amarr empire IS THE BIGGEST OF THEM ALL? And why they were the first to invent jump gates See, I took your argument and beat you over the head with it Indeed, the Ammar Empire is the biggest of them all, they enslaved the Minmatars and had a go at the Jove, sure they lost but then so would every other race in comparision to Jove. It does seem Ammar are a bit lack luster in thier 'devastateing lasers'...
Ruze No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2006.11.10 19:16:00 - [106] - Amarr need boosts to armor resists. Resists are the definition of a tank, not the total strength of the armor. Since our resists can be matched or surpassed by every race, we cannot claim the title of 'Armor Tanks.' Give Amarr ships a significant resist boost, and you provide that niche that everyone claims we have (but off the paper, it turns out to be false). - Amarr needs a boost to cap regeneration. Having a larger capacitor is great, but if you cannot regenerate what you use, you are essentially f-cked. Boost the cap regen significantly, and now Amarr can run a gank or tank setup effectively, instead of not being able to do either at the moment. - Fitting requirements stink, but I don't know if that should be adjusted. We have the older class of ships. We have the more rigid train of thought. To fit our best guns we have to make serious sacrifices (maybe adjust it so that a full rack can be fit with one PG upgrade module, instead of needing two). Great post to the op. Lots of good responses, and lots of educational idiots. Will we ever see a change, though? No. Developers hate us ... Genesis Project
Aeaus Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.10 19:57:00 - [107] Originally by: Kasak Black Indeed, the Ammar Empire is the biggest of them all, they enslaved the Minmatars and had a go at the Jove, sure they lost but then so would every other race in comparision to Jove. It does seem Ammar are a bit lack luster in thier 'devastateing lasers'... Perhaps your signature text should be changed to "OMG! THAT TICKLES!" Last Weeks Signature
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolance	Posted - 2006.11.10 20:05:00 - [108] Very nice thread, good to see some whin..eeh constructive posting about ammar i dont need to flame to death. Basicly because its a big, horrible "dead to tux", "boohoo" and "omfg ammar has always sucked" thread. Ammar doesnt have a tank advantage nor gank advantage. Also some guns have fitting problems and some ships dont work as intended. Mostly because of resistances. But dont forget, not everyone fits 2Xeam (2) and a damagecontrol. And medium beams are **** to fit. Did i mention there cruisers suck? _________________________________________________
UBERPWN	Posted - 2006.11.11 00:19:00 - [109] Well you can at least snipe Veldspar while being Amarr....

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