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Amarr Battleships are Weak (Now with Math and No Flaming [I hope])

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Aeaus Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.09 00:51:00 - [1] IÆm having a good laugh at all these Amarr Whines. I humbly believe that it is time for my fellow Amarr pilots to stop flaming and offer a full thread dedicated to the imbalances found. Obviously every class of ship is huge and going over everything is nigh impossible. First of all letÆs have a quite primer about mid-long range combat battleships. The Amarr have two (three come kali), the Apocalypse and the Armageddon. The Minmatar have one (two come kali), the Tempest. The Gallente have one, the Megathron. The first problem is clear, the Amarr have up to three times the specialized gunboats as other races do. Now, I will be the first to say that we are quite tired of this tired old trend. Amarr need versatility within this department. Now letÆs look at the guns that these ships have to put up with, the ônormalizedö guns is the amount of firepower the ship has after the bonuses are calculated. This brings us to a problem. The Tachyon Beam Laser II is a ôsuper-gun,ö while all the other races have two tiers of battleship guns the Amarr have three, this seems unbalancing to me, Amarr are more turret centralized but the problem is that these ôsuper-gunsö are quite hard to fit on a decent setup. (If you would like to compare these results with the tachyon simply multiply by its added damage, 8.75%) Dual Heavy Beam û 1200mm Howitzer û 350mm Railgun Mega Beam û 1400mm Howitzer û 425mm Railgun Tachyon û nothing û nothing I will use the medium tier for comparison with this. Apocalypse = 8 Guns Normalized [Mega Beam Laser II] Armageddon = 9.33 Guns Normalized [Mega Beam Laser II] Megathron = 8.75 Guns Normalized [425mm Railgun II] Tempest = 10 Guns Normalized [1400mm Howitzer II] Which further applied to the default (skill-less) damage means the following modifier (modifier * guns / ROF) Apocalypse = 3.2 Armageddon = 3.732 Megathron = 3.02 Tempest = 2.92 Armageddon > Apocalypse > Megathron > Tempest Now letÆs look at the tracking involvedà Apocalypse = 0.0153125 rad/sec Armageddon = 0.0153125 rad/sec Megathron = 0.0132343 rad/sec Tempest = 0.009 rad/sec Apocalypse = Armageddon > Megathron > Tempest Now letÆs look at the ranges involvedà Apocalypse = 48KM Armageddon = 48KM Megathron = 57KM Tempest = 48KM Megathron > Apocalypse = Armageddon = Tempest Now letÆs look at the percentage of CPU and PW (maximum skills) all guns need as a factor of the ships total CPU and PW. (Lower is Better) Apocalypse = 55.7% CPU + 105.6% PW Armageddon = 54.13% CPU + 109.2% PW Megathron = 58.8% CPU + 85.4% PW Tempest = 31.4% CPU + 99.6% PW Okay, let me bring up this tired whine. The Megathron has the potential to fit all its guns without utilizing extra slots, the Tempest can but arguably uses up too much of itÆs PW and thus needs a fitting module. The Amarr however are quite boned in this department, we canÆt even fit our ships with a full rack of guns without resorting to fitting modules. This is however balanced out by that our initial DPS is high enough above other races to find this as acceptable. The problems begin when we look at how much capacitor is required to sustain our weapons. This assumes maximum controlled bursts, maximum related gun skills and no modules but the guns. Apocalypse = 30.09 cap/sec [Ship Recharge = 25.97 cap/sec] [Net = -4.12 cap/sec] Armageddon = 35.10 cap/sec [Ship Recharge = 19.54 cap/sec] [Net = -15.56 cap/sec] Megathron = 22.88 cap/sec [Ship Recharge = 19.48 cap/sec] [Net = -3.4 cap/sec] Tempest = 0 cap/sec [Ship Recharge = 18.4 cap/sec] [Net = 18.4 cap/sec] Thus when firing guns at the optimal capacitor recharge we get the following trend of the tempest simply blowing everything out of the water, the Megathron following and then the Amarr being significantly lacking capacitor, especially with the Armageddon. Last Weeks Signature
Aeaus Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.09 00:52:00 - [2] Now we may not have to use ammo, but crystals are our ammo, in fact every multifrequency crystal is roughly worth 3,000 units of Antimatter Charge L. Keep in mind that we need a crystal for every gun, this quickly makes the ammo is use quite expensive, we have to hold around 2M of isk per crystal set for all the different types of ammo we need. And when you look at falloff the Amarr definitely lose, and have to switch crystals out to maintain range. Mega Beam Laser II = 20KM Falloff 425mm Railgun II = 30KM Falloff 1400mm Howitzer II = 43.75 Falloff Now, letÆs look at this objectivelyà Mega Beam Laser IIs do nice initial DPS, they have the best tracking, however they share lowest optimal with the tempest, have the worst capacitor drain (with and without taking ship recharge into account) and require the most resources to fit, while at the same time having vastly lower fall-off then the other two sniper weapons. Amarr can switch ammo types instantly but are dependant on doing so, and have to carry a lot of ISK in ammo unlike other races. Notably, while Amarr can modify their capacitor usage with different crystals, doing so reduces their damage. Proposal #1 û Make Tech I Crystals consumable just like Tech II ammo. Make them last for roughly 250-1000 shots each. In doing so increase the Mega Beam Laser II (and other tiers in the same manner) to be in line with the Howitzer II for falloff. I would support a 20-30% reduction in the capacitor usage of the weapon as this would bring the capacitor usage down closer to the Megathron, however the Megathron would have the advantage of vastly more optimal range and easy fitting requirements. The Tempest would have the advantage of no capacitor usage, which could be diverted to other tasks, as well as highest alpha strike, etc. Now, IÆm not saying this proposal is right, but IÆve provided the factual data and my opinions on why these are issues. The second major problem with Amarr is their damage against hardened targets. Amarr may have the highest DPS outright but the way that resists work out, Amarr donÆt necessary have this advantage. Unhardened (Structure) [Low Range / High Damage TI Ammo] Apocalypse = 306.7 DPS Armageddon = 357.8 DPS Megathron = 318.3 DPS Tempest = 282.2 DPS Unhardened (Structure) [Long Range / Low Damage T2 Ammo] Apocalypse = 230 DPS Armageddon = 268.3 DPS Megathron = 238.7 DPS Tempest = 230.1 DPS Hardened Shield = (2 x Invulnerability Field II + Emergency Damage Control) (52.65/81.06/71.59/62.12) Hardened Shield [Low Range / High Damage TI Ammo] Apocalypse = 133.1 Armageddon = 155.3 Megathron = 103.0 Tempest = 94.8 Hardened Shield [Long Range / Low Damage T2 Ammo] Apocalypse = 101.7 Armageddon = 118.6 Megathron = 80.4 Tempest = 53.5 Hardened Armor = (2 x EANM IIs + Emergency Damage Control) (84.33/52.98/60.82/66.04) Hardened Armor [Low Range / High Damage TI Ammo] Apocalypse = 71.4 Armageddon = 83.3 Megathron = 119.0 Tempest = 88.7 Hardened Armor [Long Range / Low Damage T2 Ammo] Apocalypse = 50.0 Armageddon = 58.4 Megathron = 87.3 Tempest = 101.2 Unhardened Shield [Low Range / High Damage TI Ammo] (0/60/40/20) Apocalypse = 281.1 Armageddon = 328.0 Megathron = 217.5 Tempest = 200.1 Unhardened Shield [Long Range / Low Damage T2 Ammo] (0/60/40/20) Apocalypse = 214.7 Armageddon = 250 Megathron = 169.8 Tempest = 112.9 Unhardened Armor [Low Range / High Damage T1 Ammo] (60/10/25/35) Apocalypse = 154.6 Armageddon = 180.4 Megathron = 225.5 Tempest =182.158 Unhardened Armor [Long Range / Low Damage T2 Ammo] (60/10/25/35) Apocalypse = 111.2 Armageddon = 130.0 Megathron = 165.8 Tempest = 192.4 Daunting, letÆs condense this information. The following will be details of time taken and average damage dealt to a target with a specific type. I assigned the value 5000 to every attribute. Last Weeks Signature
Aeaus Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.09 00:53:00 - [3] Shield Tank [Long Range] Apocalypse = 116 seconds / 129 DPS Armageddon = 99 seconds / 151 DPS Megathron = 113 seconds / 133 DPS Tempest = 141 seconds / 106.38 DPS Armageddon > Megathron > Apocalypse > Tempest Shield Tank [Short Range] Apocalypse = 86 seconds / 174 DPS Armageddon = 74 seconds / 202 DPS Megathron = 86 seconds / 174 DPS Tempest = 96 seconds / 155 DPS Armageddon > Apocalypse = Megathron > Tempest Armor Tank [Long Range] Apocalypse = 145 seconds / 103 DPS Armageddon = 124 seconds / 120 DPS Megathron = 107 seconds / 139 DPS Tempest = 115 seconds / 130 DPS Megathron > Tempest > Armageddon > Apocalypse Armor Tank [Short Range] Apocalypse = 104 seconds / 144 DPS Armageddon = 89 seconds / 168 DPS Megathron = 80 seconds / 186 DPS Tempest = 118 seconds / 127 DPS Megathron > Armageddon > Apocalypse > Tempest Okay, a bit overwhelming at first, but there are actually two major issues here. The Amarr will soon have THREE dedicated Gunships; we are supposed to be strong in the damage department when it comes to our guns. However the Megathron does 15.8% more damage at long range, 10.7% more damage at short range against armor tanks. While comparatively we do 16% more damage at long range, and 13.5% more damage at short range against shield tanks. This is an issue since ever since launch armor tanks have been about three times more prevalent. Very rarely in PvP will you go against a shield tanking battleship, the mid slots are simply too valuable to waste for that. Amarr need more damage to compete, lacking 15% may seem small, but when factored in with our lack of versatility among our other issues this suddenly becomes a serious problem that we must face. ItÆs very interesting that a race whose primary weapons are blasters (Caldari are the hybrids) according to the ôoriginalö plan outdoes the ôgunshipö race while having guns that are extremely easy to fit, have an optimal, falloff, and capacitor use advantage. Proposal #2 û This one is a very hard one to suggest, I donÆt think Amarr should have more base DPS to counter their poor damage types (Megathron is limited to two as well but is superior, and when the Rokh comes out it will do 91.4% of the Megathron DPS, but at greater range, still beating Amarr), this would be a bad idea. Instead IÆd rather see more homogeneity among the damage types. In doing so the Amarr BS DPS should be reduced to slightly above the Megathrons level. This would make all damage types viable, and would also allow the Tempest to more usable against shield tankers. A little on Tier III Battleships With Kali right around the corner we will be getting three new sniping battleships. The Abaddon, the Maelstrom, and the Rokh. Now, Amarr already have two Gunships already. The Rokh will have around 10% lower damage then the Megathron but with 50% more range. The Maelstrom will have 6% more damage then the tempest, and the Abaddon will have 14.2% more damage then the Armageddon, while using 100% more capacitor, and a tanking bonus. I wonÆt get into the whole specifics, but let me just say that having YET ANNOTHER GUNSHIP with so much capacitor usage is not what is good for Amarr. Last Weeks Signature
Commander Thrawn Tarnak inc. Eternal Empire	Posted - 2006.11.09 01:07:00 - [4] Originally by: Aeaus Proposal #2 û This one is a very hard one to suggest, I donÆt think Amarr should have more base DPS to counter their poor damage types (Megathron is limited to two as well but is superior, and when the Rokh comes out it will do 91.4% of the Megathron DPS, but at greater range, still beating Amarr), this would be a bad idea. Instead IÆd rather see more homogeneity among the damage types. In doing so the Amarr BS DPS should be reduced to slightly above the Megathrons level. This would make all damage types viable, and would also allow the Tempest to more usable against shield tankers. could you please clarify proposal 2 please?
Aeaus Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.09 01:08:00 - [5] I also thought I would include this. Any shield tank that doesn't fit a Photon Scattering Field II is piloted by a silly pilot, considering shield tanks ultimately have more room then an armor tank (1 x Shield Booster > 2 x LARs, Damage Controls + Damage Modules in low slots). A pure shield tank will actually put the Armageddon and Apocalypse damage, with no pun intended, into the bronze age. [Reserved] Last Weeks Signature
Aeaus Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.09 01:11:00 - [6] Edited by: Aeaus on 09/11/2006 01:12:11 Edited by: Aeaus on 09/11/2006 01:11:27 Originally by: Commander Thrawn Originally by: Aeaus Proposal #2 û This one is a very hard one to suggest, I donÆt think Amarr should have more base DPS to counter their poor damage types (Megathron is limited to two as well but is superior, and when the Rokh comes out it will do 91.4% of the Megathron DPS, but at greater range, still beating Amarr), this would be a bad idea. Instead IÆd rather see more homogeneity among the damage types. In doing so the Amarr BS DPS should be reduced to slightly above the Megathrons level. This would make all damage types viable, and would also allow the Tempest to more usable against shield tankers. could you please clarify proposal 2 please? Sure. Instead of having shield go... 0 / 60 / 40 / 20 and armor go... 60 / 10 / 35 / 35 have it be more like... 25 / 35 / 30 / 30 (shield) 45 / 25 / 35 / 35 (armor) Obviously these are not the final numbers I'm suggesting, but something similar to where damage is balanced. Oh, and the Amarr DPS would need to be reduced along with this to being slightly higher then the megathron. Last Weeks Signature
Samirol Ore Mongers	Posted - 2006.11.09 01:12:00 - [7] interesting stuff, although i think it balances out some because 1/2 the pilots in eve are caldari. In your pvp of choice, there may not be many caldari ships, but that doesn't warrant a boost to the entire race because shield tanking isn't prevalant in one section of the pvp spectrum. It is fine as is, maybe EANMs could be tweaked, but not much else. This corp is recruiting. Billboard Project
Aeaus Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.09 01:14:00 - [8] Edited by: Aeaus on 09/11/2006 01:14:47 Originally by: Samirol interesting stuff, although i think it balances out some because 1/2 the pilots in eve are caldari. In your pvp of choice, there may not be many caldari ships, but that doesn't warrant a boost to the entire race because shield tanking isn't prevalant in one section of the pvp spectrum. It is fine as is, maybe EANMs could be tweaked, but not much else. That may be true, but a large majority of PVP pilots train caldari for the excellent stats and tweak up other races. Secondly a lot of Caldari ships are used in PVE, more so then other races. Realistically in PVP you see MUCH more armor tanks then you will see shield tanks. I did not suggest a boost to the entire race at all, I suggested that shield / armor really not be that much of a difference by spreading resistances around. This is an indirect boost to make the Amarr BSs fine. Omni Tanks relaly aren't that big of an issue. Last Weeks Signature
Gordon Red SteelVipers YouWhat	Posted - 2006.11.09 01:24:00 - [9] Edited by: Gordon Red on 09/11/2006 01:27:28 It is said that Amarr should be high damage dealer and have a strong armor. So you should have included to look at the armor rateing, too. You showed that the cap itself goes down very fast on amarr ships => this limts the quality to tank. Some cap.mods are allways needed, but that's fine. With Kali this will get worse, but I think it is still fine. To increase the damage and let the fitting problems standing, would be one aproach => you will have to waste slots so you can finally have the high damage. BUT I would leave the damage right where it is at the moment and increase the ships attributes, so there can be fitted all the big guns as other races can. The armor problem is still there, but I wouldn't change much there, perhaps the ocassional bonus to the resis per level on one or two ships. About the Tier3-BS... there are so much topics abou this... but an other gun boat is stupid => a drone BS or a Khanid-style BS would make more sense.
Aeaus Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.09 01:31:00 - [10] Originally by: Gordon Red ... Oh I greatly agree on that point, no race should have the ability to tank and gank at the same time, however the Amarr really have a worser tank and a worser gank then other ships. Why a worser gank? Omni Tanks + Resists = Crap Damage Why a worser tank? Guns use up more then capacitor regeneration. Fitting mods are pretty much required. We don't really have a major low slot advantage. Ship attribute increases would be most welcome, as well as capacitor usage would actually help us maintain a respectable DPS and a respectable TANK at the same time and then decide whether it's worth focusing on one. Last Weeks Signature
Snikkt Gallente Time Cube Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.09 01:32:00 - [11] Ammar aren't about versatility. They're non-versatile, just like Gallente like drones, just like Caldari love their missiles, and just like Minmatar ships look like scrap metal. That's part of flying Ammar. Fluffwise, that is how the Amarr war machine does combat. ------------------- If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. My opinions are not my corporations.
Aeaus Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.09 01:34:00 - [12] Originally by: Snikkt Ammar aren't about versatility. They're non-versatile, just like Gallente like drones, just like Caldari love their missiles, and just like Minmatar ships look like scrap metal. That's part of flying Ammar. Fluffwise, that is how the Amarr war machine does combat. Ugh. Gallente ships are quite versitile (Drones + Railguns + Blasters + Nice Mids) Caldari ships are quite powerful (Missiles + More Missiles + ECM superiority) Minmatar ships are perhaps the most versitile (Autocannons, Drones, Artillery, Missiles) Except for... Gallente, Caldari, and Most of Minmatar do not suck the big one like the Amarr does. Last Weeks Signature
Hanns Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.09 01:38:00 - [13] wow nice post, its nice to read somthing that well thought out and constructed, really makes up for all the pointless, "amarr sux fix plz" threads. Originally by: Tuxford a new retribution bonus. +1 med slot per level
Roxanna Kell BURN EDEN	Posted - 2006.11.09 01:41:00 - [14] Amarr's are meant to be Weak, read the chronicles. they spend their time praying to god, instead of going to training ; p Quote: "Don't touch the RED butt
Snikkt Gallente Time Cube Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.09 01:57:00 - [15] Originally by: Aeaus Originally by: Snikkt Ammar aren't about versatility. They're non-versatile, just like Gallente like drones, just like Caldari love their missiles, and just like Minmatar ships look like scrap metal. That's part of flying Ammar. Fluffwise, that is how the Amarr war machine does combat. Ugh. Gallente ships are quite versitile (Drones + Railguns + Blasters + Nice Mids) Caldari ships are quite powerful (Missiles + More Missiles + ECM superiority) Minmatar ships are perhaps the most versitile (Autocannons, Drones, Artillery, Missiles) Except for... Gallente, Caldari, and Most of Minmatar do not suck the big one like the Amarr does. Congratz. You proved my point for me. ------------------- If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. My opinions are not my corporations.
Gordon Red SteelVipers YouWhat	Posted - 2006.11.09 01:59:00 - [16] Edited by: Gordon Red on 09/11/2006 02:02:16 Originally by: Aeaus Originally by: Gordon Red ... Guns use up more then capacitor regeneration. Fitting mods are pretty much required. We don't really have a major low slot advantage. Ship attribute increases would be most welcome, as well as capacitor usage would actually help us maintain a respectable DPS and a respectable TANK at the same time and then decide whether it's worth focusing on one. I wouldn't change the cap or the recharge rate at all (reason is at the bottom of this post)! To be able to fit the weapons, there would be some lows freed => so there would finally be some space for cap-, damage- or armor mods. So you could choose what weakness you want to make up. This is important! Every ship and race MUST have weaknesses. And there have to be MORE weaknesses as you should be able to close, but you should be able to do so.
Aeaus Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.09 01:59:00 - [17] Originally by: Roxanna Kell Amarr's are meant to be Weak, read the chronicles. they spend their time praying to god, instead of going to training ; p This is a MMORPG. Chronicles are no excuse for blatent imbalance. And no, Amarr are supposed to be some of the most powerful... Quote: The Amarrians were the first of the races in EVE to re-discover Warp technology, notably Jump gate technology. After accomplishing this more than 2,000 years ago, they immediately began expanding to nearby solar systems, slowly building up their empire in the process. On the way, they encountered two human races, both of whom suffered the fate of being enslaved by the far more powerful Amarrians. Quote: Amarrians soon found the economic and military might of the Gallenteans a match for their own. Gallente aren't weak in PVP. As I'll say again, chronicles are no excuse for such strong imbalance. Last Weeks Signature
Aeaus Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.09 02:00:00 - [18] Originally by: Skittz Congratz. You proved my point for me. I was also making the point that lack of versitility doesn't have to make a race weak (Caldari). Whereas the Amarr are weak. Originally by: Aeaus Originally by: Roxanna Kell Amarr's are meant to be Weak, read the chronicles. they spend their time praying to god, instead of going to training ; p This is a MMORPG. Chronicles are no excuse for blatent imbalance. And no, Amarr are supposed to be some of the most powerful... Quote: The Amarrians were the first of the races in EVE to re-discover Warp technology, notably Jump gate technology. After accomplishing this more than 2,000 years ago, they immediately began expanding to nearby solar systems, slowly building up their empire in the process. On the way, they encountered two human races, both of whom suffered the fate of being enslaved by the far more powerful Amarrians. Quote: Amarrians soon found the economic and military might of the Gallenteans a match for their own. Gallente aren't weak in PVP. As I'll say again, chronicles are no excuse for such strong imbalance. Last Weeks Signature
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.09 02:02:00 - [19] Originally by: Snikkt Ammar aren't about versatility. They're non-versatile, just like Gallente like drones, just like Caldari love their missiles, and just like Minmatar ships look like scrap metal. That's part of flying Ammar. Fluffwise, that is how the Amarr war machine does combat. well according to the backstory we also have DEVASTATING lasers instead of amusing little lightshows and sport the heaviest tanks around instead of just average ones. if amarrian ships were really as powerful as described by the backstory i think we would have less problems with our lack of versatility.
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.09 02:04:00 - [20] Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 09/11/2006 02:04:47 Originally by: Aeaus lots of stuff ehm...did you use emp or fusion for the tempest shortrange damage agaisnt armortanks?
Aeaus Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.09 02:07:00 - [21] I used EMP L. I can pull up the results on Fusion if you'd like to compare them. Last Weeks Signature
Gordon Red SteelVipers YouWhat	Posted - 2006.11.09 02:11:00 - [22] Edited by: Gordon Red on 09/11/2006 02:13:28 If CCP don't want versality for Amarr, they haven't invented the Khanid ships! The T1+T2 recon standing for versality, too. But why no versality for the BS?!?
Violent Sky	Posted - 2006.11.09 02:24:00 - [23] Edited by: Violent Sky on 09/11/2006 02:26:30 Why are you comparing MegaBeam IIs with 425mms and 1400mms, why not Tachyons? Can't really propose increasing the optimal of a Megabeam II when you have the option of Tachyons. Not a flame, just asking. I looked for an explanation in your post, but didn't find one.
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.09 02:25:00 - [24] Originally by: Aeaus I used EMP L. I can pull up the results on Fusion if you'd like to compare them. well if you want to compare effectiveness on armortanks you should propably take the ammo used for it. otherwise you ignore the ability to select the best ammo for the job there. on the few occations i do use projectiles (read: when i want to properly fit a maller or punisher for pvp) i usually use fusion (or a mix with fusion and some other) as you're mostly shooting on armor anyway. also you can always carry some emp/phased plasma or other around as well in case you should meet the unexpected shieldtank. thats somewhat the point of being able to chose your damagetype i thought.
Aeaus Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.09 02:30:00 - [25] Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne Originally by: Aeaus I used EMP L. I can pull up the results on Fusion if you'd like to compare them. well if you want to compare effectiveness on armortanks you should propably take the ammo used for it. otherwise you ignore the ability to select the best ammo for the job there. on the few occations i do use projectiles (read: when i want to properly fit a maller or punisher for pvp) i usually use fusion (or a mix with fusion and some other) as you're mostly shooting on armor anyway. also you can always carry some emp/phased plasma or other around as well in case you should meet the unexpected shieldtank. thats somewhat the point of being able to chose your damagetype i thought. Fusion L w/ Tempest... Unhardened Shield (0/60/40/20) : 112.8 Hardened Armor (84.33/52.98/60.82/66.04) : 116.6 Unhardened Structure : 256.56 Time to kill : (44.32 + 42.88 + 19.48) = 106.68 seconds / 140.6 DPS (Difference of 10.7% more DPS over EMP L) Last Weeks Signature
Violent Sky	Posted - 2006.11.09 02:33:00 - [26] Also, you are basing alot of your argument on the comparison between ships that I assume are going to be snipers or long range. Every ship should not be equally good at sniping, just like every ship should not be equally good at mining, short range combat, or carrying prostitutes. Yeah that would make it balanced, but it also makes it boring. If Amarr is so horrible, why was the pre-eminent PvP ship for a very long time the Geddon? Megapulses are still the most versatile Battleship sized weapon around. Excellent short-medium to medium-long range, more flexible than any other turret based weapon. That has to count for something.
Aeaus Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.09 02:34:00 - [27] Originally by: Violent Sky Edited by: Violent Sky on 09/11/2006 02:26:30 Why are you comparing MegaBeam IIs with 425mms and 1400mms, why not Tachyons? Can't really propose increasing the optimal of a Megabeam II when you have the option of Tachyons. Not a flame, just asking. I looked for an explanation in your post, but didn't find one. Tachyons do have 4KM more optimal range. (Note : ever said to increase optimal range), and ultimately 8% more damage. They also use capacitor like a ***** and you need 25987.5 PW with AWU V to fit them on a armageddon, which has 20625 PW to start, you need a minimum of 2 RCU IIs just to fit them. They're a "super-gun" similar to how Neutron Blasters are to the Gallente. But go ahead and add 8% DPS to these values and see if the loss of yet annother slot to an RCU will make up for that (it won't). Last Weeks Signature
Commander Thrawn Tarnak inc. Eternal Empire	Posted - 2006.11.09 02:58:00 - [28] Originally by: Violent Sky Also, you are basing alot of your argument on the comparison between ships that I assume are going to be snipers or long range. Every ship should not be equally good at sniping, just like every ship should not be equally good at mining, short range combat, or carrying prostitutes. Yeah that would make it balanced, but it also makes it boring. If Amarr is so horrible, why was the pre-eminent PvP ship for a very long time the Geddon? Megapulses are still the most versatile Battleship sized weapon around. Excellent short-medium to medium-long range, more flexible than any other turret based weapon. That has to count for something. prior to rmr we could stack 8xheatsink II now anything over 4 is useless and the 4th does very little also eamn where not common
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.09 03:51:00 - [29] Edited by: Risien Drogonne on 09/11/2006 03:55:03 The amarr whines never change. It's amusing. The amarr ships are on top in fully half the categories you listed, and your whine is that you're not on top in the other half too. Oh boo hoo. Originally by: Aeaus ItÆs very interesting that a race whose primary weapons are blasters (Caldari are the hybrids) according to the ôoriginalö plan outdoes the ôgunshipö race while having guns that are extremely easy to fit, have an optimal, falloff, and capacitor use advantage. And quite honestly, that's just a stupid statement outright. Blasters and rails are both hybrids just like pulses and beams are both lasers. You're grasping at straws here and it makes your argument look petty. Add in your propaganda based on not using tachyons and it just looks like outright dishonesty. Good luck bringing that to the devs.
Aeaus Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.09 03:55:00 - [30] Originally by: Risien Drogonne The amarr whines never change. It's amusing. The amarr ships are on top in fully half the categories you listed, and your whine is that you're not on top in the other half too. Oh boo hoo. Worst Capacitor Usage Worst Fitting Requirements Worst Range Worst Falloff Worst Hardened Armor Damage Worst overall damage Worst Tank resulting from capacitor drain Your rebuke is nothing but a "well... **** you," remark at it's core. Do you somehow justify having a bad gank and a bad tank by being able to swap crystals instantly or some jazz like that? You're the type of poster that turns civilized threads to flame and whine fests. Last Weeks Signature
Gordon Red SteelVipers YouWhat	Posted - 2006.11.09 03:57:00 - [31] Originally by: Violent Sky Excellent short-medium to medium-long range, more flexible than any other turret based weapon. That has to count for something. Medrange combat isn't happening! Sniping with alpha + many T2-BS and warping out before anything that can tackle you is able to reach you. The other method is short range (under 20km). You could say that you could warp in on 40km, but if the other don't like, he simply warps out (unless you have a faction scrambler...) => so your medium range "bonus" is too short or wasted.
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.09 03:58:00 - [32] Originally by: Aeaus Worst Capacitor Usage Worst Fitting Requirements Worst Range Worst Falloff Worst Hardened Armor Damage Worst overall damage Worst Tank resulting from capacitor drain Your rebuke is nothing but a "well... **** you," remark at it's core. Do you somehow justify having a bad gank and a bad tank by being able to swap crystals instantly or some jazz like that? You're the type of poster that turns civilized threads to flame and whine fests. Best base DPS Most powergrid Balances #1 Balances #1 Best unhardened shield damage Flat out lie Balances out #1 Your whine is the same as all the others. "Waaahhhhh we can't have an uber tank and an uber gank at the same time!!!!" My answer: Who can?
Snikkt Gallente Time Cube Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.09 03:59:00 - [33] Originally by: Aeaus Originally by: Risien Drogonne The amarr whines never change. It's amusing. The amarr ships are on top in fully half the categories you listed, and your whine is that you're not on top in the other half too. Oh boo hoo. Worst Capacitor Usage Worst Fitting Requirements Worst Range Worst Falloff Worst Hardened Armor Damage Worst overall damage Worst Tank resulting from capacitor drain Your rebuke is nothing but a "well... **** you," remark at it's core. Do you somehow justify having a bad gank and a bad tank by being able to swap crystals instantly or some jazz like that? You're the type of poster that turns civilized threads to flame and whine fests. Go train Caldari, then. There's lots of pressing issues in EVE right now. This happens to be one of them. There's a lot of things wrong, that need fixing. Maybe it'll get around to be fixed, maybe not. Don't sit here and complain. You won't change anyones minds, you won't enlighten people. You'll have people argue, and agree. ------------------- If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. My opinions are not my corporations.
Aeaus Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.09 04:06:00 - [34] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Aeaus Worst Capacitor Usage Worst Fitting Requirements Worst Range Worst Falloff Worst Hardened Armor Damage Worst overall damage Worst Tank resulting from capacitor drain Your rebuke is nothing but a "well... **** you," remark at it's core. Do you somehow justify having a bad gank and a bad tank by being able to swap crystals instantly or some jazz like that? You're the type of poster that turns civilized threads to flame and whine fests. Best base DPS Most powergrid Balances #1 Balances #1 Best unhardened shield damage Flat out lie Balances out #1 Your whine is the same as all the others. "Waaahhhhh we can't have an uber tank and an uber gank at the same time!!!!" My answer: Who can? You didn't even bother reading the post. It doesn't "balance" out if we need to use more PW then we have to fit a medium tier of guns while the Megathron can fit that without any hickup. I fail to see how the base DPS is even a concern since 90% of people fly with some sort of tank, and most of them will be armor tanking omni-tanks. Worst overall damage a flatout lie, maybe you should read the original post. Armor tanks most popular check, Omni tanks most popular check, resulting in pathetic damage. I don't see how the 12.5% BASE DPS on our best Gank Ship that requires fitting mods could balance out having worst range, worst capacitor, worst fall off, etc, etc. Even considering that going against the common target we get some of the worst DPS. Proof or STFU. Last Weeks Signature
Deschenus Maximus Amarr In Articulo Mortis	Posted - 2006.11.09 04:11:00 - [35] Dude, WTF? Originally by: Risien Drogonne Best base DPS Who cares about base DPS if actual DPS sucks? What? Is that supposed to be of comfort to Amarr pilots? That our numbers are highest on paper? Woopdi-freaking-doo! Originally by: Risien Drogonne Most powergrid ...And? If our guns take more PG to begin with, how is that an advantage? Originally by: Risien Drogonne Balances #1 Balances #1 Considering that #1 is bullst, that makes these two arguments bullst as well. Originally by: Risien Drogonne Best unhardened shield damage Again, woopdidoo! We kill day-old Caldari noobs faster than anyone else! Yay! Originally by: Risien Drogonne Flat out lie You're right; we're second worst after Minmatar, and that's not saying much... Originally by: Risien Drogonne Balances out #1 Read above, but furthermore, considering that Amarr is supposed to be THE tanking race, I can't believe you don't see a problem with this. Originally by: Risien Drogonne Your whine is the same as all the others. "Waaahhhhh we can't have an uber tank and an uber gank at the same time!!!!" Hmmm... no... I believe that his argument was that we pretty much can't do EITHER properly one at a time. Doing both at the same time is so far from possible that the very idea is laughable. Originally by: Risien Drogonne My answer: Who can? cough Caldari cough FOR THE EMPEROR! The Third NtV (Noob to Vet) Lottery
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.09 04:11:00 - [36] Edited by: Risien Drogonne on 09/11/2006 04:13:34 Originally by: Aeaus You didn't even bother reading the post. It doesn't "balance" out if we need to use more PW then we have to fit a medium tier of guns while the Megathron can fit that without any hickup. I'm trying to feel sorry for the fact that you just can't seem to fit eight guns easily while the rest of us live with 6 or 7 guns... Nope, ain't got much for ya, sorry. Originally by: Aeaus I fail to see how the base DPS is even a concern since 90% of people fly with some sort of tank, and most of them will be armor tanking omni-tanks. Fleet setups don't use tanks, and fleet setups are where you'd be using these weapons. Next whine? Originally by: Aeaus Worst overall damage a flatout lie, maybe you should read the original post. Armor tanks most popular check, Omni tanks most popular check, resulting in pathetic damage. Outside of fleet combat, I see quite a few shield tankers. Originally by: Aeaus Even considering that going against the common target we get some of the worst DPS. And you get some of the best tanks without having to use any ammo, which means more room for cap charges. What, did you think there wouldn't be a tradeoff for that? It's just the same old amarr whine: "oh devs, please ignore all of our benefits and give us everyone else's benefits on top of ours!"
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.09 04:15:00 - [37] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus cough Caldari cough Anybody who thinks Caldari are uber gank needs to actually spend a little time playing the game.
Aeaus Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.09 04:16:00 - [38] Edited by: Aeaus on 09/11/2006 04:17:02 Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Aeaus You didn't even bother reading the post. It doesn't "balance" out if we need to use more PW then we have to fit a medium tier of guns while the Megathron can fit that without any hickup. I'm trying to feel sorry for the fact that you just can't seem to fit eight guns easily while the rest of us live with 6 or 7 guns... Nope, ain't got much for ya, sorry. Are you stupid? You have a gun... you use it. You need to use it. The Apocalypse have 5% lower DPS while fitting all the high slots. Do you think it's a valid arguement that you have only seven? Your seven guns do more then our eight. The Armageddon is a different animal altogether, but it still requires all seven guns to operate even COMPETITIVELY. And then then it has 50m3 smaller drone bay. And this competitively is 12.5% base then Megathron, except for we have a worser damage type. Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Aeaus I fail to see how the base DPS is even a concern since 90% of people fly with some sort of tank, and most of them will be armor tanking omni-tanks. Fleet setups don't use tanks, and fleet setups are where you'd be using these weapons. Next whine? Really, I'm sure nobody in a fleet would ever fit an omni tank and some passive plates to help up their survivability by a factor of three. Nope, nobody, ever. Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Aeaus Worst overall damage a flatout lie, maybe you should read the original post. Armor tanks most popular check, Omni tanks most popular check, resulting in pathetic damage. Outside of fleet combat, I see quite a few shield tankers. Yes I'm sure you do, most of them are whoring LVL IV missions. Shield tanks aren't the best thing in the world for PVP, those mid slots are better spent on electronic warfare. Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Aeaus Even considering that going against the common target we get some of the worst DPS. And you get some of the best tanks without having to use any ammo, which means more room for cap charges. What, did you think there wouldn't be at tradeoff for that? We have the best what? Oh yes, the best tank. Oh let's see the Apocalypse has the exact same slot layout as the megathron. And of course it's higher capacitor drain with guns active does of course allow our tanks to run longer. Caldari can tank and gank if they choose. Active tanks don't really mean much anymore. Last Weeks Signature
Commander Thrawn Tarnak inc. Eternal Empire	Posted - 2006.11.09 04:17:00 - [39] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Aeaus Worst Capacitor Usage Worst Fitting Requirements Worst Range Worst Falloff Worst Hardened Armor Damage Worst overall damage Worst Tank resulting from capacitor drain Your rebuke is nothing but a "well... **** you," remark at it's core. Do you somehow justify having a bad gank and a bad tank by being able to swap crystals instantly or some jazz like that? You're the type of poster that turns civilized threads to flame and whine fests. Best base DPS Most powergrid Balances #1 Balances #1 Best unhardened shield damage Flat out lie Balances out #1 Your whine is the same as all the others. "Waaahhhhh we can't have an uber tank and an uber gank at the same time!!!!" My answer: Who can? you clearly have never flow amarr as you are pretty much rabling nonsence
Ruah Piskonit Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.09 04:20:00 - [40] Brilliant post, very educational. And yes, I agree with you, something needs to give, more versitility or fix our wepons. I would prefer our gunships became what they were ment to be - massive dps killing machines that are weak to tracking disruptors. As it stands, we have sub-par dps and no tank. --
Aeaus Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.09 04:20:00 - [41] Edited by: Aeaus on 09/11/2006 04:20:38 Originally by: Risien Drogonne Edited by: Risien Drogonne on 09/11/2006 04:16:43 Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Again, woopdidoo! We kill day-old Caldari noobs faster than anyone else! Yay! Listen up... Both the maelstrom and the rokh are shield tanks and you're gonna be seeing a lot of them in PvP. The amarr will have the best DPS vs them. Any decent Shield Tanker will fit 2 x Invulnerability Fields and 1 x Photon Scattering Field, giving them nice even resists. Why? Amarr might be an issue and so might minmatar, it's the lowest resist anyway. And I believe those ships will also be preoccupied with fitting lots of other gear in the middle slots, so I wouldn't bet on "super tank" rokhs. Last Weeks Signature
Siakel	Posted - 2006.11.09 04:21:00 - [42] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus You're right; we're second worst after Minmatar, and that's not saying much... Uhm... I'd put Minmatar far above Amarr right now. The 'Minmatar are the worst' thing was true once, but now it's just a lingering myth. And to Risien... please explain to me how +8-10% more base powergrid on the ship makes up for the weapons taking up to 80% more powergrid, please. The "super high powergrid" of Amarr ships seems nice, but with the Grid use on lasers, that 'grid advantage' vanishes after the first two or three guns, depending on ship. Look at the Harbinger, for example. Compare it to the Hurricane. Harbinger's grid advantage (125 with max skills) is gone after the first two lasers. It then ends up with a 'Powergrid advantage' of -480 less grid with just lasers fitted! Woo! Please. Try using the ships before you talk about balancing them.
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.09 04:23:00 - [43] Edited by: Risien Drogonne on 09/11/2006 04:24:38 Originally by: Aeaus Are you stupid? You have a gun... you use it. You need to use it. The Apocalypse have 5% lower DPS while fitting all the high slots. Do you think it's a valid arguement that you have only seven? Your seven guns do more then our eight. The Armageddon is a different animal altogether, but it still requires all seven guns to operate even COMPETITIVELY. And then then it has 50m3 smaller drone bay. And this competitively is 12.5% base then Megathron, except for we have a worser damage type. Perhaps you never noticed, but you get more lowslots than anyone else. Maybe you could try using them for DPS? Oh my god! I know! Nobody ever thought of that before! The point I'm trying to get across to you is that you will NEVER have any success whining that your gun doesn't match up point for point against another type of gun. Why? Because there are other factors involved. Originally by: Aeaus We have the best what? Oh yes, the best tank. Oh let's see the Apocalypse has the exact same slot layout as the megathron. And of course it's higher capacitor drain with guns active does of course allow our tanks to run longer. 700 more armor and a 50% bigger capacitor than the Megathron. But oh yah, mentioning things like that would expose your data for the dishonest propaganda that it is, right?
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.09 04:29:00 - [44] Originally by: Aeaus Any decent Shield Tanker will fit 2 x Invulnerability Fields and 1 x Photon Scattering Field, giving them nice even resists. Why? Amarr might be an issue and so might minmatar, it's the lowest resist anyway. And I believe those ships will also be preoccupied with fitting lots of other gear in the middle slots, so I wouldn't bet on "super tank" rokhs. I suggest you not pursue this line of argument, as it will invalidate your whine all by itself. ANY decent PvPer hardens to fill the holes in her tank, meaning every weapon comes up against this problem.
Aeaus Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.09 04:29:00 - [45] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Edited by: Risien Drogonne on 09/11/2006 04:23:21 Originally by: Aeaus Are you stupid? You have a gun... you use it. You need to use it. The Apocalypse have 5% lower DPS while fitting all the high slots. Do you think it's a valid arguement that you have only seven? Your seven guns do more then our eight. The Armageddon is a different animal altogether, but it still requires all seven guns to operate even COMPETITIVELY. And then then it has 50m3 smaller drone bay. And this competitively is 12.5% base then Megathron, except for we have a worser damage type. Perhaps you never noticed, but you get more slowslots than anyone else. Maybe you could try using them for DPS? Oh my god! I know! Nobody ever thought of that before! The point I'm trying to get across to you is that you will NEVER have any success whining that your gun doesn't match up point for point against another type of gun. Why? Because there are other factors involved. Perhaps you've never noticed that we need to use a lot of them for fitting modules to make our ships work. And yes, you need to fit all your gun slots to even BARELY stay above the DPS of a Megathron at BASE, you remove a few and you'll be lower at BASE. You need two of the geddon and one for the RCU to fit the middle tier guns. Look how fast our "advtange" evaporates just to be able to fit our guns. Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Aeaus We have the best what? Oh yes, the best tank. Oh let's see the Apocalypse has the exact same slot layout as the megathron. And of course it's higher capacitor drain with guns active does of course allow our tanks to run longer. 700 more armor and a 50% bigger capacitor than the Megathron. But oh yah, mentioning things like that would expose your data for the dishonest propaganda that it is, right? You definately didn't read the post. I mean one of my sections was exactly on this issue. I'll refresh your memory, err... Apocalypse = 30.09 cap/sec [Ship Recharge = 25.97 cap/sec] [Net = -4.12 cap/sec] Armageddon = 35.10 cap/sec [Ship Recharge = 19.54 cap/sec] [Net = -15.56 cap/sec] Megathron = 22.88 cap/sec [Ship Recharge = 19.48 cap/sec] [Net = -3.4 cap/sec] Tempest = 0 cap/sec [Ship Recharge = 18.4 cap/sec] [Net = 18.4 cap/sec] Why don't you look at that? The Apocalypse actually has less capacitor "in" then the Megathron does. And the Armageddon is just boned. Oh, and it's 33% more capacitor with maximum skills. Wow, 700 more Armor HP really balances everything out nicely. What about the structure we're lacking? Wait, not relavent, neither are your arguements. Last Weeks Signature
Siakel	Posted - 2006.11.09 04:42:00 - [46] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Aeaus Any decent Shield Tanker will fit 2 x Invulnerability Fields and 1 x Photon Scattering Field, giving them nice even resists. Why? Amarr might be an issue and so might minmatar, it's the lowest resist anyway. And I believe those ships will also be preoccupied with fitting lots of other gear in the middle slots, so I wouldn't bet on "super tank" rokhs. I suggest you not pursue this line of argument, as it will invalidate your whine all by itself. ANY decent PvPer hardens to fill the holes in her tank, meaning every weapon comes up against this problem. Yes, and when they end up with 80% resist on one tank and 75% resist on the other, they can complain about it.
Tricit Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.09 04:43:00 - [47] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Aeaus Any decent Shield Tanker will fit 2 x Invulnerability Fields and 1 x Photon Scattering Field, giving them nice even resists. Why? Amarr might be an issue and so might minmatar, it's the lowest resist anyway. And I believe those ships will also be preoccupied with fitting lots of other gear in the middle slots, so I wouldn't bet on "super tank" rokhs. I suggest you not pursue this line of argument, as it will invalidate your whine all by itself. ANY decent PvPer hardens to fill the holes in her tank, meaning every weapon comes up against this problem. real quick responses for the win!? All everyone does is point at Amarr people who make arguments as to why their ships are the worst in the game, and people like you just come in with repetitive Bullcarp. I'm serious here. I've seen posts just like you have made here more than ANY other post in the game. It is the most absurd and utterly uneducated bullcrap that exists within these forums and probably extends from past hate of the Gankageddon I keep hearing about. I am a new player, and I once thought that Amarr would be good for me. WHY? Because I thought exactly like you did, Risien, in my noob times. Guess what? I am STILL a noob and I've already come to realize the major shortcomings that Amarr face before even reaching the proper skills to pilot the ** ships! I simply looked at the base damage on paper, and thought, "WOW, I could certainly *ravens and such with this!" I thought I was right... but the first thing that I hit head on is exactly what the OP states. The dominant tank I've seen in my time in 0.0 (time a little over 2 months in which I've participated in a variety of 0.0 corps, which is good for a 3.3ish month old player) are the OPs suggest Armor Omni Tanks. Another thing ***slapped my shiny new Prophecy. A raven that a gang I was in encountered once. With his proper tank, EM does nothing. The only thing that does less damage on a proper varsitle shield tank than EM is Explosive. This is what I have come to learn after seeing many basic raven setups. So now I have gone back to Caldari to carebear and raise skills, have fun with random people I meet (not piracy) and stuff of that sort. I will be waiting to see what Kali presents. As of now, the OP has everything 100% correct in my view.
Tricit Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.09 04:47:00 - [48] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Aeaus Any decent Shield Tanker will fit 2 x Invulnerability Fields and 1 x Photon Scattering Field, giving them nice even resists. Why? Amarr might be an issue and so might minmatar, it's the lowest resist anyway. And I believe those ships will also be preoccupied with fitting lots of other gear in the middle slots, so I wouldn't bet on "super tank" rokhs. I suggest you not pursue this line of argument, as it will invalidate your whine all by itself. ANY decent PvPer hardens to fill the holes in her tank, meaning every weapon comes up against this problem. Yes, every weapon comes against this problem, but as already pointed out, this is irrelevant. While the Proper weapons fitted on Amarr ships require fitting modules, this results in less net DPS. So now Megathorn is slightly higher base DPS because the Geddon has to do Fitting Modules. However, your gallente head was too far up your butt to remember this? And then there is the cap usage on top of that. This was told to you about fourty times on this thread alone.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr In Articulo Mortis	Posted - 2006.11.09 04:47:00 - [49] Edited by: Deschenus Maximus on 09/11/2006 04:56:20 Edited by: Deschenus Maximus on 09/11/2006 04:51:51 Originally by: Risien Drogonne Listen up... Both the maelstrom and the rokh are shield tanks and you're gonna be seeing a lot of them in PvP. The amarr will have the best DPS vs them. One word: HARDENING. I would dearly hope that anyone taking out a Maelstrom or Rokh to fight would be experienced enough to know to fill out the huge friggin' gap in their defense. And even if your point was true, that's TWO more ships where we would have an initial advantage, since HP boost + high cap consumption = dead cap. And let's not even go into imagining what an Abaddon vs Rokh or Abaddon vs Maelstrom fight would look like... I don't feel like crying right now. Originally by: Risien Drogonne Anybody who thinks Caldari are uber gank needs to actually spend a little time playing the game. They don't have an uber gank, but they do have a gank, plus they CAN tank at the same time, thank you. And with the Drake... gods... EDIT: Oh! And since you didn't reply to my other points, I take it that it was a silent admital that you were wrong? FOR THE EMPEROR! The Third NtV (Noob to Vet) Lottery
dalgett	Posted - 2006.11.09 05:50:00 - [50] risien your arguments seem to be based by what u read on paper but not by what actually happens in-game ok so we have large amounts of low slots - yay, large amounts of high slots - yay, but this is irrelevent when u consider that some of our valuable damage increasing low slots have to be taken up with pg and cpu enhancing mods just to fill the high slots, not to mention the fact that once filled its bloody hard to keep those turrets running for a decent time period to be of any use. also not all pilots have awu lvl5 aqnd have to resort to combo setups of turrets and nos, the skills required to use these ships is very high. u also talk about other ships having less high slots am i wrong in thinking that other ships recieve bonuses for secondary weapons and modules that armarr dont get. we have no secondary weapons that we recieve a bonus for other than on a very few ships like the arbitrator and the curse and pilgrim both of which are t2.
Baraak Tizhaan Amarr Origin Corp	Posted - 2006.11.09 07:46:00 - [51] This was an instructive post by the OP. A lot of thought has gone into it and examples were given for real situations. If life was so easy fitting and using lasers then why is it that you can rarely fit a full rack of top tier lasers (especially beams) and so many Amarr PvPers find it better to fit projectile weapons instead?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.09 09:38:00 - [52] Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne Originally by: Aeaus I used EMP L. I can pull up the results on Fusion if you'd like to compare them. well if you want to compare effectiveness on armortanks you should propably take the ammo used for it. otherwise you ignore the ability to select the best ammo for the job there. on the few occations i do use projectiles (read: when i want to properly fit a maller or punisher for pvp) i usually use fusion (or a mix with fusion and some other) as you're mostly shooting on armor anyway. also you can always carry some emp/phased plasma or other around as well in case you should meet the unexpected shieldtank. thats somewhat the point of being able to chose your damagetype i thought. Phased Plasma is a better ammo than EMP all around anyway. EMP does 1.2% more damage than Phased Plasma to shields that dont sport a seperate EM boost. Phased Plasma also does more damage to armor by a significant amount[dont remember the percentage]. So its pretty much never worth the trade off to use EMP ammo, especialy if your opponent hardens vs EM seperatly. Phased Plasma is also smaller, and has longer range to boot.
Anominity Amarr Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.	Posted - 2006.11.09 09:48:00 - [53] I just posted this in another thread, and though it relevant here too so read away :) I was playing with the Abaddon on the test server last night, I quite liked it (I did not even bother trying out a sniping fit) My setup was purely for Small gang type warfare. 4 Mega Pulse 2's with Conflagration/Scorch 4 Heavy Diminishing Nos 4 Cap Recharger 2's 2 Large Armor Rep 2's 1 Therm Hardner 2 1 Kin Hardner 2 1 Exp Hardner 2 1 EAN 2 1 Cap Power Relay 1 EM Resist Rig 1 Kin Resist Rig 1 Exp Resist Rig All Resists 80% + I am almost maxxed in Amarrian skills. To me, this is a tanking ship, not a gank ship as was first and foremost proposed by everyone. I won every 1 v 1 BS fight I had, read EVERY. Now to the problemsà 8 turret slots? No pointà No tackling equipment (As I said, small gang, let my friends do the holding) My victory's are due to my nos, plain and simple. What does this add up to? The ship is not what it is said/meant to be. There is absolutely no point to the RoF bonus as far as I am concerned. The 8 turret slots with the RoF bonus combined with no Cap usage bonus, pointlessà The above setup would work just as well on an Apoc, obviously with slightly worse resists, but you could probably swap out the Cap Relay for a DMG Control or 2nd EAN to counter this. In summary, I agree with everyone else, this ship is nothing new, although not a bad ship in itself, we have already got two ships that do exactly what this one does. Now don't get me wrong, I am probably the biggest believer in the "Amarrian Philosophy" of DPS/Tank that I know, with the sacrifice of versatility (These people suggesting we change this ship to drone boat / missile boat make me cry) What I want to see is the abaddon turned into our Tach boat. Abaddon = Tachyons (read: powergrid! And change bonus +resist to cap usage and RoF bonus to Dmg bonus) Apoc = Tank (Change +Cap bonus to +resist bonus) Geddon = Short Range Gank (I like geddon, keep as is) I hate suggesting changes, but there are my thoughts :)
DarkFollower Amarr Phantom Squad iPOD Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.09 10:05:00 - [54] I agree with the Op entirely but i dissagre with Anominity , The Abbadon seems to me to be the best amarr ship to this date , but only combined with the rigs , withought any rigging , the abbadon dosen't even deserve to get out of the station in my opinion , u will ran out of cap in no time if u fit the guns and actually consider using them, or u will come up with bellow average rezults if u use a nos setup , maynly because u can do the same with the apoc I myself tryed it on test server , won every fight including agains a hyperion but that was only because he ran out of cap booster Cap recharges on PvP ships Suxxor monkey ballzorz!!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.09 10:20:00 - [55] The abaddon needs rigs to be usable and the other ships get to use rigs to increase their advantage... It wont be too bad with AC's/Artys using rigs though, better than it will be with lasers at any rate.
Shadowsword Gallente COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2006.11.09 10:51:00 - [56] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Perhaps you never noticed, but you get more lowslots than anyone else. Maybe you could try using them for DPS? Oh my god! I know! Nobody ever thought of that before! The point I'm trying to get across to you is that you will NEVER have any success whining that your gun doesn't match up point for point against another type of gun. Why? Because there are other factors involved. Hello. It has become pretty evident to me that you know very little about amarr ships, or mass pvp in general. Most sniper ships have between 2 and 4 slots for tanking. If you don't know that, you must not do a lot of pvp, or at least not the kind that takes place in 0.0. And don't bring up Kali things when we're discussing ACTUAL problems, ok? Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Aeaus We have the best what? Oh yes, the best tank. Oh let's see the Apocalypse has the exact same slot layout as the megathron. And of course it's higher capacitor drain with guns active does of course allow our tanks to run longer. 700 more armor and a 50% bigger capacitor than the Megathron. But oh yah, mentioning things like that would expose your data for the dishonest propaganda that it is, right? Apoc cap: 4800 base*1.25= 6000 cap. Megathron cap: 4500 cap. 6000/4500=1.33 = 33% bigger cap. Where do your 50% bigger cap come from? Oh, right, you made it up... ------------------------------------------ Nuhwall: Why are some Amarr ships warping backward? Shadowsword: whatever happen, if they need to flee they can honestly say the faced the enemy.
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.11.09 10:52:00 - [57] I fly caldari in PvP. Most of the time I end up armour tanked simply because I need the mids for web/tackler/ab/mwd/etc/etc 'nuff said really. Zarch AlDain
Xendie Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.09 11:01:00 - [58] id wish that they changed so amarr wouldnt need the 2 engineering mods just to fit the guns. i have always said that amarr only have 5 lowslots, keep it that way and move the 2 extra ones up to midslots and remove the need for the engineering mods. that would be slight interesting. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Mia Starbright Armee der Finsternis YouWhat	Posted - 2006.11.09 11:10:00 - [59] Originally by: Aeaus Now letÆs look at the guns that these ships have to put up with, the ônormalizedö guns is the amount of firepower the ship has after the bonuses are calculated. This brings us to a problem. The Tachyon Beam Laser II is a ôsuper-gun,ö while all the other races have two tiers of battleship guns the Amarr have three, this seems unbalancing to me, Amarr are more turret centralized but the problem is that these ôsuper-gunsö are quite hard to fit on a decent setup. (If you would like to compare these results with the tachyon simply multiply by its added damage, 8.75%) Dual Heavy Beam û 1200mm Howitzer û 350mm Railgun Mega Beam û 1400mm Howitzer û 425mm Railgun Tachyon û nothing û nothing Ummm, you sure about this ? Because imho it goes like this Dual Heavy Beam - nothing for minnies - Dual 250mm Railgun Mega Beam - 1200mm Howitzer - 350mm Railgun Tachyon - 1400mm Howitzer - 425mm Railgun Wouldn`t that be more correct ?
Nifel Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.09 11:18:00 - [60] Originally by: Aeaus Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Aeaus I fail to see how the base DPS is even a concern since 90% of people fly with some sort of tank, and most of them will be armor tanking omni-tanks. Fleet setups don't use tanks, and fleet setups are where you'd be using these weapons. Next whine? Really, I'm sure nobody in a fleet would ever fit an omni tank and some passive plates to help up their survivability by a factor of three. Nope, nobody, ever. If they know anything about fleet combat, no... not really. If you've got nothing else to fit, then sure. But actually trying to tank in fleets? "When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) Sama
Jazz Bo Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.11.09 11:41:00 - [61] Railguns are not easy to fit. Try sticking 7 x 425mm II & 2 x Mag Stab II on a Mega. Even with all named modules in the rest of your slots (and some very low Cpu using ones like 2 x Sensor Booster), you will not have enough Cpu. You basically have three options: 1. Fit a Co-processor 2. Downgrade a gun or two into 350mm IIs 3. Use an implant that reduces the Cpu usage of turrets. Incidentally these use the same slot as +damage ones. Amarr run out of grid, Gallente run out of Cpu. I don't see a problem. Quote: Pew pew... ka-boom.... pew pew... squishhh
IlIlIIlIlIlIlIIllIIllIlI	Posted - 2006.11.09 11:47:00 - [62] I fly Amarr sometimes and EANMs or high EM resists don't bother me so much. What does bother me is the fact that Amarr are a medium range race in a game that is all about close range (Gate PVP) or long range (Sniping/Fleets) Simply put, Amarr are non-compatible with EVE Online. They do not belong. Put it this way, if T1 Webifiers and Scramblers had 45km range and the closest warpin point to a gate was 30km instead of 15km, Amarr would be ownage. Amarr simply do not fit in with the rest of EVE and its PvP mechanics.
IlIlIIlIlIlIlIIllIIllIlI	Posted - 2006.11.09 11:56:00 - [63] Originally by: Jazz Bo Amarr run out of grid, Gallente run out of Cpu. I don't see a problem. If there was a 5% grid reduction implant I might agree with you. Fact is with a 5% CPU implant and good skills you open up a lot of fitting options that would otherwise not fit, any good Megathron pilot knows this. The use of extra lowslots is worth a heck of a lot more than 5% damage.
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard	Posted - 2006.11.09 12:12:00 - [64] Edited by: Jaketh Ivanes on 09/11/2006 12:13:53 Originally by: Jazz Bo Railguns are not easy to fit. Try sticking 7 x 425mm II & 2 x Mag Stab II on a Mega. Even with all named modules in the rest of your slots (and some very low Cpu using ones like 2 x Sensor Booster), you will not have enough Cpu. You basically have three options: 1. Fit a Co-processor 2. Downgrade a gun or two into 350mm IIs 3. Use an implant that reduces the Cpu usage of turrets. Incidentally these use the same slot as +damage ones. Amarr run out of grid, Gallente run out of Cpu. I don't see a problem. So, you can fit 7x425 II's on a mega without problems? Meaning, you have nothing but guns on it. Try fitting 6 Tach II's on an Apoc.. you can't. And thats fitting NOTHING else. EDIT: Good post, OP
Shadowsword Gallente COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2006.11.09 13:00:00 - [65] Originally by: IlIlIIlIlIlIlIIllIIllIlI IWhat does bother me is the fact that Amarr are a medium range race in a game that is all about close range (Gate PVP) or long range (Sniping/Fleets) Simply put, Amarr are non-compatible with EVE Online. They do not belong. QFT This is why Amarr players use tachyons a lot more often than mega beams. Not for the additionnal few % of damage, not for the higher alpha strike, just for the range. At the price of screwing up your low slot fitting... As for why a passive tank is a good thing in fleet battles: - You have one hell of a better chance to warp out if you end up primary. In theory you don't need it. On the field, with lag takng a hand, it's VERY important. - Each second the enemy focus on you is a second they don't fire on your mates. ------------------------------------------ Nuhwall: Why are some Amarr ships warping backward? Shadowsword: whatever happen, if they need to flee they can honestly say the faced the enemy.
Aeaus Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.09 13:30:00 - [66] Originally by: Nifel If they know anything about fleet combat, no... not really. If you've got nothing else to fit, then sure. But actually trying to tank in fleets? In my "fleet" example I am refering to much smaller groups. However, I used to fit an Omni Tank on my battleships back in my BoB days, didn't lose a single one because that small buffer gave me just enough time to get out. Quote: Ummm, you sure about this ? Because imho it goes like this Dual Heavy Beam - nothing for minnies - Dual 250mm Railgun Mega Beam - 1200mm Howitzer - 350mm Railgun Tachyon - 1400mm Howitzer - 425mm Railgun Wouldn`t that be more correct ? If you like to think of it this way, sure, it's an extra 8% damage. But it requires more fitting modules to fit. Quote: Railguns are not easy to fit. Try sticking 7 x 425mm II & 2 x Mag Stab II on a Mega. Even with all named modules in the rest of your slots (and some very low Cpu using ones like 2 x Sensor Booster), you will not have enough Cpu. Apocalypse = 55.7% CPU + 105.6% PW Armageddon = 54.13% CPU + 109.2% PW Megathron = 58.8% CPU + 85.4% PW You don't see a problem, well let's see. You use 4% more of your CPU while having more to start. 4% cpu is a SMALL price to pay considering how easy PW wise it is. Oh, and it's not hard to fit anything if you have a lot of CPU left over and use no fitting modules while getting the best of your ship. Look at the setup below, can we fit anything remotely similar so easily? No, we run out of PW, we run out of CPU and to make up for it we need fitting modules which slaughter our efficiency. Quote: Megathron 7 425mm Railgun II 2 Tracking Computer II 2 Sensor Booster II 2 Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 1 Tracking Enhancer II 2 Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1 Emergency Damage Control I 1 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Last Weeks Signature
Miri Tirzan Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.09 15:08:00 - [67] Originally by: Anominity 2 Large Armor Rep 2's 1 Therm Hardner 2 1 Kin Hardner 2 1 Exp Hardner 2 1 EAN 2 1 Cap Power Relay 1 EM Resist Rig 1 Kin Resist Rig 1 Exp Resist Rig All Resists 80% + Well, I hate to break this to you but 3xEANM2 will give you the same resists and not take all your rig slots if you have max armor comp skills. svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
LWMaverick Quam Singulari Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.09 15:09:00 - [68] Edited by: LWMaverick on 09/11/2006 15:21:08 Originally by: Anominity I just posted this in another thread, and though it relevant here too so read away :) I was playing with the Abaddon on the test server last night, I quite liked it (I did not even bother trying out a sniping fit) My setup was purely for Small gang type warfare. 4 Mega Pulse 2's with Conflagration/Scorch 4 Heavy Diminishing Nos 4 Cap Recharger 2's 2 Large Armor Rep 2's 1 Therm Hardner 2 1 Kin Hardner 2 1 Exp Hardner 2 1 EAN 2 1 Cap Power Relay 1 EM Resist Rig 1 Kin Resist Rig 1 Exp Resist Rig All Resists 80% + I am almost maxxed in Amarrian skills. To me, this is a tanking ship, not a gank ship as was first and foremost proposed by everyone. I won every 1 v 1 BS fight I had, read EVERY. now try to fit other ships in sisi-pvp mode if you fitted t2 cap rechargers and no scramlbers/webbers on most other bs's.. they would pwn and tank just as much, and most of them even more. /Mav <3
Siakel	Posted - 2006.11.09 15:19:00 - [69] Originally by: Mia Starbright Originally by: Aeaus Now letÆs look at the guns that these ships have to put up with, the ônormalizedö guns is the amount of firepower the ship has after the bonuses are calculated. This brings us to a problem. The Tachyon Beam Laser II is a ôsuper-gun,ö while all the other races have two tiers of battleship guns the Amarr have three, this seems unbalancing to me, Amarr are more turret centralized but the problem is that these ôsuper-gunsö are quite hard to fit on a decent setup. (If you would like to compare these results with the tachyon simply multiply by its added damage, 8.75%) Dual Heavy Beam û 1200mm Howitzer û 350mm Railgun Mega Beam û 1400mm Howitzer û 425mm Railgun Tachyon û nothing û nothing Ummm, you sure about this ? Because imho it goes like this Dual Heavy Beam - nothing for minnies - Dual 250mm Railgun Mega Beam - 1200mm Howitzer - 350mm Railgun Tachyon - 1400mm Howitzer - 425mm Railgun Wouldn`t that be more correct ? No, because Tachyons are supposed to be 'a class above' 425mms and 1400mms. It's quite annoying though, as it tends to lead people to compare Tach DPS to other races, while if we try to use Tachs in an argument about PG/CPU requirements, people tend to jump on the 'a class above' thing and say we've got to compare their highest-tiers to Megabeams, which is what the OP has done.
Trigger Sterling Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.09 16:56:00 - [70] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Edited by: Risien Drogonne on 09/11/2006 04:16:43 Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Again, woopdidoo! We kill day-old Caldari noobs faster than anyone else! Yay! Listen up... Both the maelstrom and the rokh are shield tanks and you're gonna be seeing a lot of them in PvP. The amarr will have the best DPS vs them. Originally by: Deschenus Maximus cough Caldari cough Anybody who thinks Caldari are uber gank needs to actually spend a little time playing the game. Good job! You addressed two points, and ignored the six you can't rebuke. That Forum Warrior 101 class really paid off. Seriously, do you have a response for the other points that were raised, or are you just stirring things up replying to one or two points a post to distract from the other concerns?
Cosmo Raata Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2006.11.09 17:04:00 - [71] Originally by: Siakel Originally by: Mia Starbright Originally by: Aeaus Now letÆs look at the guns that these ships have to put up with, the ônormalizedö guns is the amount of firepower the ship has after the bonuses are calculated. This brings us to a problem. The Tachyon Beam Laser II is a ôsuper-gun,ö while all the other races have two tiers of battleship guns the Amarr have three, this seems unbalancing to me, Amarr are more turret centralized but the problem is that these ôsuper-gunsö are quite hard to fit on a decent setup. (If you would like to compare these results with the tachyon simply multiply by its added damage, 8.75%) Dual Heavy Beam û 1200mm Howitzer û 350mm Railgun Mega Beam û 1400mm Howitzer û 425mm Railgun Tachyon û nothing û nothing Ummm, you sure about this ? Because imho it goes like this Dual Heavy Beam - nothing for minnies - Dual 250mm Railgun Mega Beam - 1200mm Howitzer - 350mm Railgun Tachyon - 1400mm Howitzer - 425mm Railgun Wouldn`t that be more correct ? No, because Tachyons are supposed to be 'a class above' 425mms and 1400mms. It's quite annoying though, as it tends to lead people to compare Tach DPS to other races, while if we try to use Tachs in an argument about PG/CPU requirements, people tend to jump on the 'a class above' thing and say we've got to compare their highest-tiers to Megabeams, which is what the OP has done. All of you ignorants need to stop arguing this point, TUXFORD Compares Tachs to 1400mm, & 425's, meaning that the tach is what is balanced with those, not the **** mega beam. Geez, I swear sometimes people just argue whatever is in their head without comfirming it with fact.
SolarKnight Gallente ORIGIN SYSTEMS	Posted - 2006.11.09 18:03:00 - [72] Sorry mate but Tachyons were originally designed as a "size above" other guns, just as 75mm rails were designed to be a "size below". Just because the current guy balancing it doesn't strictly use the same figures as before, doesn't mean thats how it was originally designed. The Light in the Darkness Origin Systems is Recruiting http://Origin.zapto.org
Ryo Jang Central Defiance Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.11.09 20:12:00 - [73] Originally by: Ruah Piskonit Brilliant post, very educational. And yes, I agree with you, something needs to give, more versitility or fix our wepons. I would prefer our gunships became what they were ment to be - massive dps killing machines that are weak to tracking disruptors. As it stands, we have sub-par dps and no tank. -- this sums up my thoughts completely, seconded.
Byzan Zwyth Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.09 20:44:00 - [74] good post, I'm not quite with you on those change ideas though. But it's pretty easy to see something needs to be done ---------------------- I fly Amarr and Gallente ships Amarr because they peow peow - and look cool... Gallente because they are effective
Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2006.11.09 20:45:00 - [75] Edited by: Happster on 09/11/2006 20:48:02 Reply to OP: At first i thought this was yet another Minmatar whining tread as i read Tempest being last on 80% of the cases.......so was a bit surprised to see it was about Amarr Anyway.....Amarr was between the midle and best in most of the cases..... Sure...we know Amarr has issues.....not saying it doesnt need a litle love... But to compare like this and try showing that it isnt best in everything just doesnt gain your cause... I belive each race should have something their best at...and then i mean uber at... The more special the races gets compared to eachother.....the more fun it will be to play them... I dont got the answeres of what to do with Amarr to make them up to date.... But im pretty sure it doesnt have to be so much... By looking at your info....i noticed Amarr can deal some seriouse damage....actually outdamamged the others a lot in some cases... Anyway....now when combats is gonna last even longer.....i think your cap bonus should be upped some. To increase HP, and not your cap bonus, will nerf your weapons a lot. So something needs to be done. But im sure CCP will do something about that when Kali enters.... Hehe...one thing i really had a blast at....you whined about you had to have so much isk in ammo......got a news flash for you.... You do know you dont have to fill up all your cargo with ammo :P When thinking of your ammo, you should prise yourself that your Amarr and not Minmatar.... Minnies problem is they cant have enough ammo in cargo to last a long fight :P Anyway....i think ships are pretty balanced as is atm.....maybe raven / torps is too easy..... Else i see each type of ships beat eachother.....So it cant be all that bad
Ryo Jang Central Defiance Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.11.09 21:18:00 - [76] well, i for one am glad he presented all the facts. but where its most important to us, we are found lacking. thats what hurts. please, reduce the cap usage on the large beams, maybe even on armor repping too. thats what were strong at, and right now theres nothing helping us really at all. and the pg thing is also big issue, but i admit, not as big as the cap drain.
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.09 21:26:00 - [77] Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 09/11/2006 21:26:24 Originally by: Happster Anyway....now when combats is gonna last even longer.....i think your cap bonus should be upped some. To increase HP, and not your cap bonus, will nerf your weapons a lot. So something needs to be done. But im sure CCP will do something about that when Kali enters.... according to the last devchat tux thinks that its a good thing that some ships will be at a cap-disadvantage after the hp-boost. so i assume he either believes amarr to be too powerful or hasnt thought these changes through. take your pick. Originally by: Happster Hehe...one thing i really had a blast at....you whined about you had to have so much isk in ammo......got a news flash for you.... You do know you dont have to fill up all your cargo with ammo :P somehow i dont think you understand why amarr have to pay more for their t2 ammo than other races. atm each crystal equals 1000 rounds of ammo. ever tried to split a crystal in 2 parts? you will notice its not possible. if you want to use 1 set of long and 1 set of shortrange t2 ammo on an apoc or abaddon you will need 16 crystals for a total worth of 16000 shots. compare this to the new maelstrom with 8x artillery cannons. would you bring 16000 pieces of ammo there? Originally by: Happster When thinking of your ammo, you should prise yourself that your Amarr and not Minmatar.... Minnies problem is they cant have enough ammo in cargo to last a long fight :P actually i would gladly trade the capuse of our guns for the need to use ammo. besides with the abaddon amarrians will need ammo. only our ammo needs more space than minmatar one and is called cap booster charges.
Anominity Amarr Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.	Posted - 2006.11.09 22:32:00 - [78] Originally by: LWMaverick Edited by: LWMaverick on 09/11/2006 15:21:08 Originally by: Anominity I just posted this in another thread, and though it relevant here too so read away :) I was playing with the Abaddon on the test server last night, I quite liked it (I did not even bother trying out a sniping fit) My setup was purely for Small gang type warfare. 4 Mega Pulse 2's with Conflagration/Scorch 4 Heavy Diminishing Nos 4 Cap Recharger 2's 2 Large Armor Rep 2's 1 Therm Hardner 2 1 Kin Hardner 2 1 Exp Hardner 2 1 EAN 2 1 Cap Power Relay 1 EM Resist Rig 1 Kin Resist Rig 1 Exp Resist Rig All Resists 80% + I am almost maxxed in Amarrian skills. To me, this is a tanking ship, not a gank ship as was first and foremost proposed by everyone. I won every 1 v 1 BS fight I had, read EVERY. now try to fit other ships in sisi-pvp mode if you fitted t2 cap rechargers and no scramlbers/webbers on most other bs's.. they would pwn and tank just as much, and most of them even more. /Mav Agreed, but as i said, i was all about the tank, thats what i wanted, thats what i got :) And also as stated, i do not like the ship its current role
Anominity Amarr Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.	Posted - 2006.11.09 22:33:00 - [79] Originally by: Miri Tirzan Originally by: Anominity 2 Large Armor Rep 2's 1 Therm Hardner 2 1 Kin Hardner 2 1 Exp Hardner 2 1 EAN 2 1 Cap Power Relay 1 EM Resist Rig 1 Kin Resist Rig 1 Exp Resist Rig All Resists 80% + Well, I hate to break this to you but 3xEANM2 will give you the same resists and not take all your rig slots if you have max armor comp skills. Oh, never realised rigs stacked, fair enough then, i would have used 3 of those Nano Pump things which improve reppers :)
Tricit Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.09 22:41:00 - [80] Edited by: Tricit on 09/11/2006 22:44:26 Originally by: SolarKnight Sorry mate but Tachyons were originally designed as a "size above" other guns, just as 75mm rails were designed to be a "size below". Just because the current guy balancing it doesn't strictly use the same figures as before, doesn't mean thats how it was originally designed. You are just completely missing their point! The thing is, Tuxford, way down after the creation of the weapons, has modified the Tachyon since to be an equivilant to all the other races highest tier long range turrets. What they used to be and what they are now is a huge difference. Oh an my logic might go so far as to say, so much of a difference, that now Tachyons are justly put on tier with the other three long range turrets when being compared inside Tuxfords head. However, this is all a side from the point that either one does too little, or the other requires too much. :(
Aeaus Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.09 22:50:00 - [81] Originally by: Cosmo Raata All of you ignorants need to stop arguing this point, TUXFORD Compares Tachs to 1400mm, & 425's, meaning that the tach is what is balanced with those, not the **** mega beam. Geez, I swear sometimes people just argue whatever is in their head without comfirming it with fact. Okay, let's compare the Tachyons.. Tachyon Beam Laser II CPU (WU V) : 47.25 PW (AWU V) : 3712.5 We get (at base) 52 KMs Range (4 KMs More), and with skills.... 25 Falloff (5KM more) 8% more DPS then Mega Beams 5.2% more capacitor usage then Megabeams So we would get... Apocalypse = 331.2 DPS Armageddon = 386.4 DPS Megathron = 318.3 DPS Tempest = 282.2 DPS Okay, looks remarkably good on paper doesn't it? 4% more DPS then the Megathron with an Apocalypse 21.3% more DPS then a Megathron with an Armageddon But wait! Apocalypse needs TWO, that's right TWO RCU IIs to even fit a rack. How "super" is this weapon if it's equal on terms to the 425mm II on the Megathron that not only fits without ANY fitting modules, but in fact has plenty of PW left over. Wow, 4% more DPS on paper and five usable low slots vs the Megathrons seven. Very, very, comparable to 425MM IIs. And the Argmageddon also needs TWO RCU IIs to fit a rack of Tachyons. Yes, I am so ignorant that me comparing weapons of the middle tier is just absurd. I mean it's only 2 Low Slots to even fit a rack of weapons, what significane can two Low Slots have on a armor tanking gun boat? Last Weeks Signature
Nev Clavain Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.09 23:09:00 - [82] Edited by: Nev Clavain on 09/11/2006 23:10:50 Originally by: Aeaus I don't mean to come off as rude here. But we have THREE, THREE FRAKING GUNSHIPS. Could we get a bone over here and get one good for sniping? Gallente have one, just one, and it's nber, the caldari have one, and it's nber. We have three, none of which are incredibly good for sniping. The Apoc can snipe and do alot of damage with it. Just no room for a tank or stabs really, so if you get caught you are done for. You can get 8 tachyons 3 heatsinks, and 3 x sensor boosting and 3 x tracking mods on - what more do yo need? With my skills and a t2 setup i get about 190km optimal with Aurora L and tachyons. I love my Apoc sniper. I would certainly agree though that according to backstory Amarr are supposed to have powerful guns which imo they do, and a powerful tank, which imo they don because the cap use of the guns nerfs the tank. Bascially Cap booster is needed, and amarr is already short on midslots. SO somethign could be done, I dunno what though. Sig removed. Please keep sigs to 400x120 pixels and 24000 bytes in size or less. -Kaemonn
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.09 23:23:00 - [83] Edited by: Goumindong on 09/11/2006 23:23:16 Originally by: Tricit Edited by: Tricit on 09/11/2006 22:50:38 Edited by: Tricit on 09/11/2006 22:44:26 Originally by: SolarKnight Sorry mate but Tachyons were originally designed as a "size above" other guns, just as 75mm rails were designed to be a "size below". Just because the current guy balancing it doesn't strictly use the same figures as before, doesn't mean thats how it was originally designed. You are just completely missing their point! The thing is, Tuxford, way down after the creation of the weapons, has modified the Tachyon since to be an equivilant to all the other races highest tier long range turrets. What they used to be and what they are now is a huge difference. Oh an my logic might go so far as to say, so much of a difference, that now Tachyons are justly put on tier with the other three long range turrets when being compared inside Tuxfords head. However, this is all aside from the point that either one does too little, or the other requires too much. :( O.K. So its fair then to compare tachs with 1/0 damage mods with 1400's/425's with 2/3? Because they dont fit without fitting mods.
Aeaus Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.09 23:43:00 - [84] Originally by: Nev Clavain Edited by: Nev Clavain on 09/11/2006 23:10:50 Originally by: Aeaus I don't mean to come off as rude here. But we have THREE, THREE FRAKING GUNSHIPS. Could we get a bone over here and get one good for sniping? Gallente have one, just one, and it's nber, the caldari have one, and it's nber. We have three, none of which are incredibly good for sniping. The Apoc can snipe and do alot of damage with it. Just no room for a tank or stabs really, so if you get caught you are done for. You can get 8 tachyons 3 heatsinks, and 3 x sensor boosting and 3 x tracking mods on - what more do yo need? With my skills and a t2 setup i get about 190km optimal with Aurora L and tachyons. I love my Apoc sniper. I would certainly agree though that according to backstory Amarr are supposed to have powerful guns which imo they do, and a powerful tank, which imo they don because the cap use of the guns nerfs the tank. Bascially Cap booster is needed, and amarr is already short on midslots. SO somethign could be done, I dunno what though. Okay, let's see here. 3 x Heat Sinks 3 x Tracking Enhancers 1 x RCU II DOESN'T FIT with 8 x Tachyons And the Megathron will kick it's ass, the Apoc only has 4% higher base DPS. The Megathron has two extra usable slots, the Megathron has more range, etc, etc. So no, you may like the ship but a Tech II Megathron is just so much better. Last Weeks Signature
Angus McLean Gallente Divinity Trials	Posted - 2006.11.10 00:51:00 - [85] New Fix Proposal: All Amarr ships have increased low slots. Example: Apocaylpse: 8 low slots Armageddon: 8 low slots Maller: 6-7 low slots Omen: 6 low slots Punisher: 4 low slots And increased powergrid. Take maller for example. Then it could fit its normal tank + a heat sink II and medium guns. (This is a joke post, but id be happy if it worked. )
Nifel Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.10 02:57:00 - [86] Originally by: Aeaus Originally by: Nifel If they know anything about fleet combat, no... not really. If you've got nothing else to fit, then sure. But actually trying to tank in fleets? In my "fleet" example I am refering to much smaller groups. However, I used to fit an Omni Tank on my battleships back in my BoB days, didn't lose a single one because that small buffer gave me just enough time to get out. The reason you got out then was because not enough people alpha striked you. Omnitank won't save you in fleet battles, incompetent enemies will. The original point is valid. Anyone fitting omnitanks in fleets are just wasting resources when it's just for BS-level hitpoints and below. You need to get up to capital ship levels for omnitanks to make any sort of difference and even there organized fleets kill them ridicously easy. "When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) Sama
Aeaus Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.10 03:05:00 - [87] Not every single BS Gang Fight is necessary a hundred man fleet shooting annother hundred man fleet. In a smaller engagement at range that omni tank WILL help you survive longer. Last Weeks Signature
mastamike69 British Space Corporation	Posted - 2006.11.10 04:29:00 - [88] Amarr ships are fine the way they are. If you guys like megas so much, go train for one. I know many Amarr pilots that have a blast with their amarr BS setups, in any situation (solo, fleet, small gang). You people that are campaigning for change just need to find something that works. Amarr is what it is, it's different than gallente, caldari and minmatar. Whats the point of making them the same/similar to other races, that wouldn't be any fun at all. Besides, the amarr are a deeply religious folk, they should be praying, their faith is in "God", why do they need better ships and ships that can fit more guns? Cheers MM (The virgin Blogger)
Santiak	Posted - 2006.11.10 04:36:00 - [89] I am deeply sorry, and saddened, at the fact that another great initial post has turned into a bright, scorching flame. Nevertheless - please keep it civil and on-topic, and this I direct to everyone. Whether you want to prove your, or disprove someone else's opinion, the best way to do so is to express it in a manner which will make people want to read your post with a clear mind. Not one obscured by the desire to flame you. I won't pretend to know much of Amarr ships, so my post may be completely useless, yet i will voice my opinion. If nothing else, consider this a summary of points, and their counter, stated in this tread. As for the OP and your base your calculations and theories on pre-set circumstances (same turret type, same battle conditions, etc.). This is valid as, more often than not, the same battle conditions will occur (long-range fleet confrontations, for example). Yet, you do base some of your statements on alternative circumstances (amount of participants in the confrontation). I will agree, based on your calculations, that Tachyon turrets come out inferior, as a fully fitted ship requires a sacrifice consisting of 2 low-slots. While this could, as some have, be disproved by the fact that their base-DPS is higher than that of the other turret types be it of the same type Tachyon = 425mm = 1400MM or alternatively Tachyon = nothing = nothing it does not make up for the lack of low-slots, on a tank-to-tank, or low-participant fleet encounter. Granted. Yet, there is, as far as i can see, also some truth to the statement that full-blown gank setups, as you might see in damage-to-damage, or high-participant fleet encounters, are leaning in the favour of that of Amarr ships. Yet you do suffer in the area of EW or Range, as your low level of versatility suggests. Your inferior level of versatility is furthermore revealed, given, of course, that you utilize your midslots to boost your cap regen, be it rechargers or boosters. In the latter case further enforcing your strengths, strengthening your lack of versatility (low falloff, static damage types), to increase your longlevity (tank) at the expense of damage (fitting - PG requirements), range (limited cargo space - falloff). Thereby you also prove that there is some validity to your statement of Amarr ships being inferior in long range, high-participant fleet encounters, seeing as you must sacrifice range for longevity. Yet as longevity is not of much concern in these type of encounters, you could - in theory - simply fit for high damage, on par - of not higher, i will leave this up to you - with that of a 425mm Megathron or 1400mm Tempest, at the expense of tank (again, lack of versatility). All of this limits your ships to either strong tanks, which is proven by your own - and other's - statement that Armour Tanks are far more frequent, and stronger, than shield tanks, or high damage, given you sacrifice range and longlivety, or to that of high-dps setups, given you relinquish your strong tanks, albeit they would be mediocre if you tried to fit any at all at that point. The issue comes when, as far as i can tell, one race is able to achieve one side without a big a sacrifice, making it easier for that said race to adjust "on the go" to a specific encounter.. For example, anything but - and here I generalize - an Amarr BS would have an easier time adjusting to the circumstances (Long-range, short-range, medium-range, high-participant, low-participant). Yet, if the Amarr BS were to adjust it's setup and focus for any of the above mentioned circumstances, it would - if only slightly - surpass any of the other races' abilities in the given encounters.. on a 1-on-1 basis, as it seems all arguments in this thread is based upon. I apologize for such a lengthy post, but matters of this magnitude can not be circumvented by fire-speeches nor touch-and-go contemplations..
Emeline Cabernet Amarr KVA Noble Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.10 04:48:00 - [90] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Aeaus Worst Capacitor Usage Worst Fitting Requirements Worst Range Worst Falloff Worst Hardened Armor Damage Worst overall damage Worst Tank resulting from capacitor drain Your rebuke is nothing but a "well... **** you," remark at it's core. Do you somehow justify having a bad gank and a bad tank by being able to swap crystals instantly or some jazz like that? You're the type of poster that turns civilized threads to flame and whine fests. Best base DPS Most powergrid Balances #1 Balances #1 Best unhardened shield damage Flat out lie Balances out #1 Your whine is the same as all the others. "Waaahhhhh we can't have an uber tank and an uber gank at the same time!!!!" My answer: Who can? clueless 4tw... see how many fitting mods you need for a full rack of t2 mega beams on arma..
Emeline Cabernet Amarr KVA Noble Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.10 04:55:00 - [91] oh and god please god tell the noobs that tachyon is a tier higher than 425 and 1400.. even god old nerfbat tom-b said it. mega beam = 1400 = 425 amarr are gods of guns, therefor we got tachyon.
Aeaus Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.10 05:11:00 - [92] Originally by: Santiak ... Thank you for your insightful post, I choose to avoid the issue of versitility since many posters on EVEO do not concern themselves with the basic facts of having drawbacks (ie people who tell me a Sniper Megathron is hard to fit while I could fit one with an Omni Passive Tank and a full rack of largest weapons with all the additional requirements of a sniper with full Tech II gear) in relationship to the competiting races and furthermore questioning why we even should be competitive when they simply read the topic and form their opinions on what they know already. Oftentimes peoples perceptions are biased due to lack of knowledge and lack of will to even try to understand the issue being presented. The issue of versitility is more complex then simply guns, fitting, etc and it involves experienced and intelligent people to create a good setup. Yes, Amarr are gimped in the versitility department, and yes we suffer. But at least some corrections to make the core of our race competitive will be enough to fix the glaring Amarr misbalance. Last Weeks Signature
Swiftness Caldari VMF-214 Blacksheep	Posted - 2006.11.10 05:57:00 - [93] Do you think the upcoming ECM nerf (less ECM -> more shield tanks, shield-tanked ravens at least) and new shield tanked battleships will make it easier for amarr BS pilots in small gang pvp action ?
Wizie Minmatar Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.11.10 06:18:00 - [94] I am not quite sure if you mentioned this... You have posted a long drawn out discussion of 1400s/425s and mega beams.. Then talked about tanking And finally about smart people fitting tanks on there ships. However, from 95% of fleet fights I've participated in, the majority of ships do not fit shield hardners or omni tanks (or whatever it is you were talking about). Amarr are fine, what isn't is the overuse of eanm mods and what it does to em resists. After Kali however, the boost to hitpoints is going to affect not only Amarr but almost every other race... some might even argue harder. ----------------- Sig removed by some noob
Nifel Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.10 06:34:00 - [95] Originally by: Aeaus Not every single BS Gang Fight is necessary a hundred man fleet shooting annother hundred man fleet. In a smaller engagement at range that omni tank WILL help you survive longer. I'm not questioning it'll help you in skirmishes. But you were talking about fleet fights. Someone commented that you don't generally fit omnitanks in fleet fights because they don't help much, and the tactical gain is small in most circumstances. Which is true. Solo -> Skirmish -> Bigger skirmish -> Fleet fight -> Humongously big fleet fight -> Mothership fight -> Titan fight -> e-peen fight ^^;. "When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) Sama
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.10 06:51:00 - [96] Edited by: Goumindong on 10/11/2006 06:53:31 Passive tanks are just as important in fleet battles as are damage mods. A EAN/DC setup will make the damage taker survive "2x" as long in a fleet setup. OR, if that amount of tanking is irrelevent, then so is the +35% or so damage from 2-3 damage mods. Fitting a tank[passive] is more important in a fleet situation and will improve your fleets odds at all times more than damage. As tanks will increase the time you live more than damage decreases the time opponents die. So yea, tanks are pretty important in fleet setups. This can be seen easily enough by examining the amount of damage a tank does versus a gank Tank Deals 1 damage, takes 1/2 damage Gank, deals 1.40 damage, takes 1 damage Tank shoots gank, deals 1 damage Gank shoots tank, deals .7 damage If you cant gank and tank, then tanking is more important than damage
Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2006.11.10 07:44:00 - [97] Edited by: Happster on 10/11/2006 07:56:24 Edited by: Happster on 10/11/2006 07:48:08 Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 09/11/2006 21:26:24 Originally by: Happster Anyway....now when combats is gonna last even longer.....i think your cap bonus should be upped some. To increase HP, and not your cap bonus, will nerf your weapons a lot. So something needs to be done. But im sure CCP will do something about that when Kali enters.... according to the last devchat tux thinks that its a good thing that some ships will be at a cap-disadvantage after the hp-boost. so i assume he either believes amarr to be too powerful or hasnt thought these changes through. take your pick. Ok.....that i agree on is rubbish....Everyone know some fixing is needed. Originally by: Happster Hehe...one thing i really had a blast at....you whined about you had to have so much isk in ammo......got a news flash for you.... You do know you dont have to fill up all your cargo with ammo :P somehow i dont think you understand why amarr have to pay more for their t2 ammo than other races. atm each crystal equals 1000 rounds of ammo. ever tried to split a crystal in 2 parts? you will notice its not possible. if you want to use 1 set of long and 1 set of shortrange t2 ammo on an apoc or abaddon you will need 16 crystals for a total worth of 16000 shots. compare this to the new maelstrom with 8x artillery cannons. would you bring 16000 pieces of ammo there? Hehe....wouldnt be able to fit 16k ammo of our type in our cargo :P But if its just an isk issue you got with your ammo type i honestly dont see the problem. And well....with the RoF, clips size and loading time on Artillery, 16k ammo would last a long war :P With AC's its a completely other issue.....Maelstrom with AC's will burn out 16k ammo in no time... Originally by: Happster When thinking of your ammo, you should prise yourself that your Amarr and not Minmatar.... Minnies problem is they cant have enough ammo in cargo to last a long fight :P actually i would gladly trade the capuse of our guns for the need to use ammo. besides with the abaddon amarrians will need ammo. only our ammo needs more space than minmatar one and is called cap booster charges. Well....try fit both our ammo and cap boosters in a Malestrom AC.....im pretty sure both our ammo and cap boosters would last less then yours:P As Amarr is supose to be the Armor tanking race number one, it would have been fun if your ships could passiv tank armor in some way. Im not saying you should be able to tank armor totally, but would help a lot if it could help on your tanking.... Then the cap usage on your weapons wouldnt matter so much, and you would have your role as the uber tankers
Dristra Amarr Idle Haven	Posted - 2006.11.10 13:32:00 - [98] Those that argue so hard that amarr are fine and do not need a boost, do you even acknowledge the fact that to use the guns that require us to use fitting mods, we have sacrificed a ship bonus? I cannot see why people would have problems seeing that amarr as a race perform very poorly in almost every aspect of the game: Amarr is sub-pair at ratting, very bad at electronic warfare, and lack flexibility in a pvp situation where pure tank and gank rarely cut it. It's great being Amarr isn't it.
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.10 13:37:00 - [99] Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 10/11/2006 13:40:14 Originally by: Happster As Amarr is supose to be the Armor tanking race number one, it would have been fun if your ships could passiv tank armor in some way. Im not saying you should be able to tank armor totally, but would help a lot if it could help on your tanking.... Then the cap usage on your weapons wouldnt matter so much, and you would have your role as the uber tankers the main problem there is that tanking with cap hungry weapons just doesnt work very well. and i dont really see an easy way to fix that. atm i would prefer it if our tankers got an armor resist bonus (most have it already) and a damage or range bonus for lasers. then add unbonused launcher hardpoints so we can actually tank with 0-cap weapons without using projectiles. this way there would at least be some reason to fit lasers on those ships for some situations while still providing the chance to actually fit a good tank for others. edit: also add a lot more cap and shift more shield towards armor
Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2006.11.10 14:55:00 - [100] Edited by: Happster on 10/11/2006 15:07:22 Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 10/11/2006 13:40:14 Originally by: Happster As Amarr is supose to be the Armor tanking race number one, it would have been fun if your ships could passiv tank armor in some way. Im not saying you should be able to tank armor totally, but would help a lot if it could help on your tanking.... Then the cap usage on your weapons wouldnt matter so much, and you would have your role as the uber tankers the main problem there is that tanking with cap hungry weapons just doesnt work very well. and i dont really see an easy way to fix that. atm i would prefer it if our tankers got an armor resist bonus (most have it already) and a damage or range bonus for lasers. then add unbonused launcher hardpoints so we can actually tank with 0-cap weapons without using projectiles. this way there would at least be some reason to fit lasers on those ships for some situations while still providing the chance to actually fit a good tank for others. edit: also add a lot more cap and shift more shield towards armor Ok..we both agree Amarr has issues Sure you can make your guns use less cap....but what will that result in? Yes, just making your guns more like everyone else. And removing Amarr from being special. I like having each race have their special strenght...... That makes it a reason to pick them. And an it will also open for more strategicly choises.... From day one i started EVE, ive allways heard Amarr is the big tankers..... But as i learned more of game i see the flaws in that. Because of your weapons, you have cap issues....And therefor also tanking issues..... What i would love to see is that Amarr ships would need very very litle cap to run armor repping. And maybe more cap to run your guns This could be done as you say by res or some passive armor tanking or something alike that.... This way you actually become the tankers....the role ive allways heard you should have but dont Instead of your cap bonus, you should have a bonus for repping armor, that would reduce the cap needed for repping by a lot
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.10 16:08:00 - [101] Originally by: Happster Sure you can make your guns use less cap....but what will that result in? Yes, just making your guns more like everyone else. And removing Amarr from being special. I like having each race have their special strenght...... i agree: lasers should have higher cap cost than hybrids. but they should not be so utterly gimped that they need a shipbonus to lvl4 or 5 just to be useful. maybe reduce the cap need of laser a bit (20-25%) and increase the effectiveness of the controlled burst skill (would also affect hybrids). in the end lasers should still use more cap than hybrids though. i would avoid the whole lasers and tank problem by just giving our tankers some launcher hardpoint so they can use a capless weapon system when they go for a good tank. the damage will not nearly rival the caldari missile ships because they would not get a bonus to launchers. now if you want to have a reason to actually fit lasers on a ship you need to provide a real bonus to lasers. something like 5% damage or 10% optimal for example. given enough base cap those bonuses can make lasers work in damage or sniper mode even without a laser cap use bonus. add a resistance bonus for a good passive tank in laser-mode and a really good active tank in launcher mode and your done. if a ship has no bonus to lasers at all or only the crappy -10% cap use one then there arent all that many reasons to fit lasers instead of projectiles or hybrids regardless of whether or not you're trying to tank.
Godar Marak Amarr Return Of Red Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.10 16:18:00 - [102] Edited by: Godar Marak on 10/11/2006 16:18:41 Originally by: Roxanna Kell Amarr's are meant to be Weak, read the chronicles. they spend their time praying to god, instead of going to training ; p Oh, so thats why the Amarr empire IS THE BIGGEST OF THEM ALL? And why they were the first to invent jump gates See, I took your argument and beat you over the head with it -------------------- \0/\0/\0/\0/\0/ Cant we all just get along? Wheres EVE heading?
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.11.10 16:29:00 - [103] Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne the main problem there is that tanking with cap hungry weapons just doesnt work very well. and i dont really see an easy way to fix that. atm i would prefer it if our tankers got an armor resist bonus (most have it already) and a damage or range bonus for lasers. then add unbonused launcher hardpoints so we can actually tank with 0-cap weapons without using projectiles. this way there would at least be some reason to fit lasers on those ships for some situations while still providing the chance to actually fit a good tank for others. edit: also add a lot more cap and shift more shield towards armor Agreed 100%. Good tanking requires cap. Lasers and Cap don't mix. If we could use missiles or had a lens with 95% cap reduction lasers and tanking may become viable. Till then, zero cap use weapons rule for tanking. On another note: If megabeams are the equivalent to 1400mm and 425s then can we please increase the range on Megabeams so they can compete? Having comparable fitting and dps with MUCH MUCH less range is not balanced. Nyxus It's great being Amarr, ain't it?Ö Originally by: Tuxford I love how you guys can take stats from a test server that is few months out of date and then panic over them. Gee, wonder why..
Aeaus Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.10 18:12:00 - [104] Originally by: Wizie Amarr are fine, what isn't is the overuse of eanm mods and what it does to em resists. After Kali however, the boost to hitpoints is going to affect not only Amarr but almost every other race... some might even argue harder. [/quote We are not "fine," yes EANM Nerfs would go a long way to making us better, but we'd still have the same issues. DPS would still be comparable to Railguns at range and obviously weaker up close (but Blasters are meant to be powerful). By "fleet" I talk about 5-10 BSs and support. Yes, I used to be in BoB and know what a "fleet" there is, and in my newer corps it's a completely different ideal. Also, 2x more life is important considering lag in conventional (HUGE) fleet battles, could mean the difference between death and getting out in low armor. Last Weeks Signature
Kasak Black The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.11.10 18:29:00 - [105] Originally by: Godar Marak Edited by: Godar Marak on 10/11/2006 16:18:41 Originally by: Roxanna Kell Amarr's are meant to be Weak, read the chronicles. they spend their time praying to god, instead of going to training ; p Oh, so thats why the Amarr empire IS THE BIGGEST OF THEM ALL? And why they were the first to invent jump gates See, I took your argument and beat you over the head with it Indeed, the Ammar Empire is the biggest of them all, they enslaved the Minmatars and had a go at the Jove, sure they lost but then so would every other race in comparision to Jove. It does seem Ammar are a bit lack luster in thier 'devastateing lasers'...
Ruze No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2006.11.10 19:16:00 - [106] - Amarr need boosts to armor resists. Resists are the definition of a tank, not the total strength of the armor. Since our resists can be matched or surpassed by every race, we cannot claim the title of 'Armor Tanks.' Give Amarr ships a significant resist boost, and you provide that niche that everyone claims we have (but off the paper, it turns out to be false). - Amarr needs a boost to cap regeneration. Having a larger capacitor is great, but if you cannot regenerate what you use, you are essentially f-cked. Boost the cap regen significantly, and now Amarr can run a gank or tank setup effectively, instead of not being able to do either at the moment. - Fitting requirements stink, but I don't know if that should be adjusted. We have the older class of ships. We have the more rigid train of thought. To fit our best guns we have to make serious sacrifices (maybe adjust it so that a full rack can be fit with one PG upgrade module, instead of needing two). Great post to the op. Lots of good responses, and lots of educational idiots. Will we ever see a change, though? No. Developers hate us ... Genesis Project
Aeaus Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.10 19:57:00 - [107] Originally by: Kasak Black Indeed, the Ammar Empire is the biggest of them all, they enslaved the Minmatars and had a go at the Jove, sure they lost but then so would every other race in comparision to Jove. It does seem Ammar are a bit lack luster in thier 'devastateing lasers'... Perhaps your signature text should be changed to "OMG! THAT TICKLES!" Last Weeks Signature
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolance	Posted - 2006.11.10 20:05:00 - [108] Very nice thread, good to see some whin..eeh constructive posting about ammar i dont need to flame to death. Basicly because its a big, horrible "dead to tux", "boohoo" and "omfg ammar has always sucked" thread. Ammar doesnt have a tank advantage nor gank advantage. Also some guns have fitting problems and some ships dont work as intended. Mostly because of resistances. But dont forget, not everyone fits 2Xeam (2) and a damagecontrol. And medium beams are **** to fit. Did i mention there cruisers suck? _________________________________________________
UBERPWN	Posted - 2006.11.11 00:19:00 - [109] Well you can at least snipe Veldspar while being Amarr....

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