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Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2006.11.10 12:39:00 - [31] Edited by: Andrue on 10/11/2006 12:41:38 There seem to be too many people here that don't understand Eve. THERE IS NO "I HAVE WON" IN EVE. There is no point aspiring to be the unbeatable "Red Barron" and therefore no point getting annoyed when your chosen equipment or playstyle gets changed. Eve is a journey and a long journey at that. Kali just means that we're turning onto a different road and that gives us new sites to see and new equipment/skills to get the hang of. Be grateful that CCP have the guts to change things. If they didn't it would all get old and stale. With the changes to Kali you have a chance to reassess how you play the game and what you play it with. Investigate the options, see what opportunities you can find. Now is the chance to be the first one to spot that opportunity and exploit it. Suddenly we almost have a level playing field again. When I joined in Feb '04 beams were crap. Then they became uber. Then they became so-so. Now they are back to crap. I'm still here. I had the guts to change my tactics and my game play. I enjoyed changing to different weapon systems and playing the game differently. If you don't understand this concept then you don't understand Eve. Eve is not about finding the best equipment and best game play style then winning. It is about progressing your character and overcoming adversity and exploiting opportunity. It's a lot like life in that respect. Those that adapat will flourish. Those that can't adapt will drop out. -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] Linux is only free if your time is worthless
grizouh Tri Optimum Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.10 13:00:00 - [32] Originally by: Andrue THERE IS NO "I HAVE WON" IN EVE. There is no point aspiring to be the unbeatable "Red Barron" and therefore no point getting annoyed when your chosen equipment or playstyle gets changed. if you do not have a clue what i am talking about don¦t try to guess. i am a full heart supporter, i do not shoot, i do not get onto killmails, i have sacrificed my whole training to support the rest of the gang to make them better. search for these people around the people _you_ know ingame, you will not find many (or they are second account chars but not active). since i play eve active, mid of 2005, i am only training for gang assist and all the stuff you need around to fly the ship as good as possible. i already flew gangassist when there was only one module possible on a t1 bc, before they introduced command proccessors incl. squadron command 5. instead of weapons i used to have remote repps in high slots and nowadays i use repair drones instead. and you still wanna blame me for crying after the i win button or complaining about not having enough targets like the other guy? when the kali changes take place i will not be able to use my skills at all till i trained some more skills from those i do not have any benefit at all for myself like all the other leadership skills. gimme a respec, lemme train for bs and t2 weapons and lemme get rid of all the leadership skills and everything else i learned to support others. if you keep all these skills on an active main char you are simply stupid.
Mr Ninjaface Minmatar Shurekin INC	Posted - 2006.11.10 15:00:00 - [33] griozuhs have a valid point to a large degree, its not like they are changing 1 or 2 skills they are compleatly nerfing a huge set of skills that are very hard to train some are rank 14. MY thoughts on Kali
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2006.11.10 15:16:00 - [34] Originally by: Mr Ninjaface griozuhs have a valid point to a large degree, its not like they are changing 1 or 2 skills they are compleatly nerfing a huge set of skills that are very hard to train some are rank 14. I have over 35 mil SP. You think I'm not affected? The difference is that I know how Eve works and I know that I will gain more from Kali than lose. The skillset I have built up so far has served me well. With Kali I might need to look in a different direction that's all. The issue of wasted time skill training is a non-starter. Everyone trains something they don't use now and again so it doesn't matter. We all have slightly borked characters and we all learn to deal with it. That's the point I'm trying to get across. Eve is a journey and RMR is drawing to a close. You did what you did and now something new is starting. Move on and see what you can achieve instead of moaning about what can never be. -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] Linux is only free if your time is worthless
Goca Minmatar Steel Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.10 17:45:00 - [35] Originally by: Andrue Originally by: Mr Ninjaface griozuhs have a valid point to a large degree, its not like they are changing 1 or 2 skills they are compleatly nerfing a huge set of skills that are very hard to train some are rank 14. I have over 35 mil SP. You think I'm not affected? The difference is that I know how Eve works and I know that I will gain more from Kali than lose. The skillset I have built up so far has served me well. With Kali I might need to look in a different direction that's all. The issue of wasted time skill training is a non-starter. Everyone trains something they don't use now and again so it doesn't matter. We all have slightly borked characters and we all learn to deal with it. That's the point I'm trying to get across. Eve is a journey and RMR is drawing to a close. You did what you did and now something new is starting. Move on and see what you can achieve instead of moaning about what can never be. How are you gaining more from Kali then you are losing? HUH? unless u are talking the retarded 50% hitpoint increase, then yeah you are gaining something I guess.. something in which the entire games loses something however.. as to the "adapt, or die or leave" I keep seeing here... what happens if people start doing the latter thing? After training something for almost a full year, with no foresight that they are going to nerf what I have trained for into oblivion.. why oh why would I waste another year training something that might be also nerfed? and I know I am not alone in this and others have trained for far longer. How do you have any clue what to train for? If I spend another year training something else that I might like, then they decide to nerf that, then what? another year? jeez the bloody game works fine as it is, as far as I can tell right now depending on the circumstances any ship in one class can kill another ship in that class.. Why screw that up to hell and beyond? add a few new non overpowered ships, fix the lag, fix the queues, do some tweaks to gang, some tweaks to certain modules if desired, maybe add some interesting drops or some new minerals, new areas etc .. but don't break the game.. As to Jesus's repeated comments on making the game more carebear friendly.. wrong thing to do.. It SHOULD be dangerous going to 0.0 and the warp to 0km option is WAY more then enough to get the people who want to go to 0.0 to go.. The others will never go, so give it up... I is Goca
Sir Drake	Posted - 2006.11.10 18:02:00 - [36] Originally by: Goca as to the "adapt, or die or leave" I keep seeing here... what happens if people start doing the latter thing? Nothing much, EVE just gets rid of those who dont want to adapt. (There are too many ppl around anyway.) The rest of us will simply continue playing.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2006.11.10 18:12:00 - [37] Originally by: Goca How do you have any clue what to train for? If I spend another year training something else that I might like, then they decide to nerf that, then what? another year? You make an educated guess. Maybe you'll be right and will become uber rich for a while. Maybe you'll guess wrong and just do okay. Maybe you'll be playing Eve for the social interplay and won't really give a ** about skills. If you can do the latter then you're really getting into Eve because you have worked out that it isn't about the toys..it's about the players. In the future, yes, there will be more nerfs. That's what I'm trying to explain. Eve is not a fixed game and you can't win. It is supposed to be a never ending struggle not a puzzle that you solve once then move on. Instead the devs work hard to keep moving the goal posts so that we always have something to strive for and new areas to explore. If you want a game that you can tick off as "another game I completed" then Eve is not for you. CCP don't want you to be able to say that. CCP want you to still be playing after ten years. Maybe you'll have been rich a few times, conquered several different regions, owned an entire region's market. Whatever. They don't want you to stand still and get bored by predictable game play If they can pull it off then it's a clever trick. A lure to keep you playing because you can never win. That is what Eve is about. I've been through change and it is always fun. Sometimes it shafts large numbers of players but that just adds to the politics and interaction. Take a step back from yor character and view the game as a whole :) -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] Linux is only free if your time is worthless**
Goca Minmatar Steel Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.10 18:33:00 - [38] Originally by: Andrue Originally by: Goca How do you have any clue what to train for? If I spend another year training something else that I might like, then they decide to nerf that, then what? another year? You make an educated guess. Maybe you'll be right and will become uber rich for a while. Maybe you'll guess wrong and just do okay. Maybe you'll be playing Eve for the social interplay and won't really give a **** about skills. If you can do the latter then you're really getting into Eve because you have worked out that it isn't about the toys..it's about the players. In the future, yes, there will be more nerfs. That's what I'm trying to explain. Eve is not a fixed game and you can't win. It is supposed to be a never ending struggle not a puzzle that you solve once then move on. Instead the devs work hard to keep moving the goal posts so that we always have something to strive for and new areas to explore. If you want a game that you can tick off as "another game I completed" then Eve is not for you. CCP don't want you to be able to say that. CCP want you to still be playing after ten years. Maybe you'll have been rich a few times, conquered several different regions, owned an entire region's market. Whatever. They don't want you to stand still and get bored by predictable game play If they can pull it off then it's a clever trick. A lure to keep you playing because you can never win. That is what Eve is about. I've been through change and it is always fun. Sometimes it shafts large numbers of players but that just adds to the politics and interaction. Take a step back from yor character and view the game as a whole :) You are right it's about the players and screwing over people who have invested alot of time and money to do what they want to do in a game is defeating the "it's about the players".. So why would people want to make a game like work? I have enough work to do in RL, I do not need to do a massive amount in a game which is supposed to be fun. I come here to escape work, which is not saying that I won't help out and have fun with corp/alliance mates, but I consider doign what I do with them as fun, when it becomes a job, I quit. But to help my corp/alliance mates I spent over a year on training skills, technics, battleplans etc which would help them, now basically that entire years work is wasted... Just to balance a percieved overpowerment that basically only affects people who have no idea how to fit a ship and haven't done their own little bit of homework? does that sound like fun? Almost completely changing a very successful game is ludicrous in my mind, doing tweaks here and there adding a little content without completely smashing the game is different, that's good thing. If this game was losing online players in a big way then I can see a need for a major revamping, but it's not, it's growing, seems pretty silly to me to fix something that isn't broken, just for the sake of change. I is Goca
A Brr Gallente Tech-5-Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.10 18:37:00 - [39] Warp to 0km. Good solution to the insane BM problem. Gatecamper will not like this feature. Rigs / salvaging Nice idea, but bad implementation. Salvaging some rigs takes forever, roi (time spent vs. reward) is very bad. Except for the speed rig i haven't found one i would like to have on my ship. Impossibility to detect which rig contains loot is crap. Map Haven't made up my mind. Animation takes way too long, and i am always rotating that stupid thing, because its always in the wrong direction. Invention I have no idea how this will effect the game. Not tested. * New ships Haven't tested one, too much other stuff to look at, but new ships to choose from is always good. * System scanning I like the idea, but i haven't tried it * Formal contract system Good idea to get rid of escrow. Very bad implementation, limited to regions, too much bound to skills, too much clicks needed for usage. Imagine a pvp char would have to click threw several menues before he is able to engage the next target... Try to explain a starter char how formal contract system works. *EW-Changes I don't use ew because i usually avoid pvp. No opinion about that. So overall i would rate the new Kali features with 0, nothing really good nothing really bad - too much work for no improvement of the game. --- The greatest crap CCP designed into EVE: Next generation manufacturing.
Goca Minmatar Steel Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.10 18:54:00 - [40] One thing I was just thinking about.. If you look back in general discussion what extreme problems with the game are most prevalent with the playerbase? I didn't see alot of players asking for new ships, new modules, I also didn't see many players calling for a complete revamping of the chat or even the way gangs or people talked to each other (ie teamspeak, VOIP, vent).. You saw the normal "nerf this, nerf that" usually started by alts who had just had their mains obliterated by another ship, which they now perceive as overpowered, be it in ECM, in weapons, range, ROF etc etc.. usually these were argued to death, usually everyone figured out that hmm it's NOT REALLY that bad. But what you saw ALOT of, was the bookmark issue, the lag and the jump queues. In other words most of the complaints about this game was based on performance issues not gameplay issues... So really I would love to see a Dev say why all these other changes are being made? Are subscriptions dropping? are online players dropping? What besides the obvious performance issues is going wrong in this game, that so many things need to change? Is it truly just for the sake of change? If so, why? I is Goca
A Brr Gallente Tech-5-Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.10 19:53:00 - [41] Very simple, because old vets like me always require new toys to play with. And because of always complaining about the same stuff is were boring. And because we need new bugs and exploits for the game otherwise QA and the GM will become unemployed Originally by: Goca ... So really I would love to see a Dev say why all these other changes are being made? --- The greatest crap CCP designed into EVE: Next generation manufacturing.
Kristoffer Amarr Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2006.11.10 20:07:00 - [42] Edited by: Kristoffer on 10/11/2006 20:09:14 Edited by: Kristoffer on 10/11/2006 20:08:38 Edited by: Kristoffer on 10/11/2006 20:08:09 Originally by: Nate D Originally by: Kristoffer My personal thoughts on Kali will be canceling my account. PVP totally sucks now. I was on Kali for a while today, the majority of my 1v1 BS fights lasted 20 to thirty minutes. I brushed my teeth, went to the bathroom, and got changed while my hyperion was fighting a rokh. Its not fun or exciting at all. As the world changes those who can adapt will survive. Those who can not adapt to change will leave or die. To make such long combat a little more exciting CCP has the idea of overheating and whatnot... But on the other hand you could always become a better BS pilot and kill people faster... :-P -NateÖ Its called Kali. Fast doesn't exist here. Outlasting your opponent = win. As i've said, Ive been involved in about 24 various 1v1 BS duels and won them all in the last two days. I've adapted to Kali just fine kthx. I cannot adapt however, to a lack of FUN or EXCITEMENT in fights. Don't believe me? I'll meet you on test.
Mr Ninjaface Minmatar Shurekin INC	Posted - 2006.11.10 20:26:00 - [43] hello everyone thanks for all your replies so far. Ive learned a little bit more about the features in Kali because of it. I didnt relize contracts where region only if so That really sucks MY thoughts on Kali
Karoth Tyu FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.10 20:44:00 - [44] My thoughts: The good outweighs the bad by a large margin. I generally approve of all PvP changes as well, with the exception of ECM still being GodMode. Higher HP turns battles into slugfests rather than the current "BOOM! HEADSHOT!" 10-second instagib sessions they are now. Anything that makes combat last longer and keeps the adrenaline pumping is worth its weight in gold, in my book I do see the Control-Q Pants-Crapping Commandos becoming a BIG problem with this patch, though, since they'll outlast anything you can dish out before they blink out of existence.
Mr Ninjaface Minmatar Shurekin INC	Posted - 2006.11.10 20:49:00 - [45] Originally by: Karoth Tyu My thoughts: The good outweighs the bad by a large margin. I generally approve of all PvP changes as well, with the exception of ECM still being GodMode. Higher HP turns battles into slugfests rather than the current "BOOM! HEADSHOT!" 10-second instagib sessions they are now. Anything that makes combat last longer and keeps the adrenaline pumping is worth its weight in gold, in my book I do see the Control-Q Pants-Crapping Commandos becoming a BIG problem with this patch, though, since they'll outlast anything you can dish out before they blink out of existence. For me 10 minute combat just isn't very exciting. Ive always found the thrill of the hunt so to say more exciting. This also makes solo players life almost impossible since you will be in enemy territory IE home system most the time. You can't quickly kill a npcing BS or most other ships except haulers now and get out before back up arrives. IMHO it takes a lot of risk out of the game and turns it more into who has the most friend closest by. While I realize that not all pvp is meant to be solo it shouldn't be reduced to gank a hauler and run. That isn't PVP its just boring. MY thoughts on Kali
Wrayeth Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.10 21:45:00 - [46] Originally by: Kristoffer I've been in over 20 battleship 1v1s on the test server in the last day and a half. Against incompetent pilots and pilots with low sp fights would last around 10 minutes. Against pilots who have a clue about what Kali is about, they'd last twenty minutes or more. The longest of my fights went 27 minutes, Hyperion vs Rokh. That is not fun, nor is it exciting. That is just stupid. I'm with you on this one. This is why my account is cancelled - solo PvP will be dead. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" R.I.P. AC tempest R.I.P. Torp raven R.I.P. Solo PvP R.I.P. My account, after the next cycle. Thanks, CCP.
Segmentor Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.10 21:47:00 - [47] Originally by: Mr Ninjaface For me 10 minute combat just isn't very exciting. Ive always found the thrill of the hunt so to say more exciting. This also makes solo players life almost impossible since you will be in enemy territory IE home system most the time. You can't quickly kill a npcing BS or most other ships except haulers now and get out before back up arrives. IMHO it takes a lot of risk out of the game and turns it more into who has the most friend closest by. While I realize that not all pvp is meant to be solo it shouldn't be reduced to gank a hauler and run. That isn't PVP its just boring. You see, CCP wants to slow PVP down to make us sit there and waste more minutes of our life than we do now. Our time=their money. No seriously... Im all against the HP boost. It just makes no point other than longer fleet combat, and indirectly nerfs the most fun part of EVE. I have never been fond of blob fights, but saw them as a mandatory to deal with serious threats. Now, blob will be a mandatory to do anything... ---
Ruze No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2006.11.10 22:27:00 - [48] My ideas, unrelated to response by others: - Seamless Map: Bugged. Can't go from one section to another. I love the look, however. The idea of moving through space using an interface instead of right-click warp-to actions is definitely promising. - New Ships: Have only flown the Amarr ones, and have the usual complaints. Amarr ships are terribly redundant, for one thing. But I've expressed my impression on how those ships should change a hundred times. No need to do so again. - Warp to 0km: Seems like a band-aid, not a fix. Insta's are an issue, and without disabling bookmark placement in some way, taking them out completely would put too much in the hands of the 'wrong element.' Still not even sure if this is permanent or just for SiSi performance. - Contracts System: Should work seamlessly with the market. Players should be able to sell anything on the market, including faction equipment. Regional contracts are a nerf to the global escrow, but I swear I saw a function to look at other regions specifically. Will have to double check. - 50% HP Increase: Love it. Makes it a little more difficult, especially for us Amarr, but d-mnit, I was pretty tired of being insta-popped anyhow. - Gang Devices: Love them. The arrangement, the 'nerf' to uber gangs. Now leadership has a function, some form of bonus to my character having those skills. Pluses all around. - Salvaging: Good ideal, seems like it could use some ironing out. Probably going to cause more clutter than it's worth, what with how lag-intensive floating objects are. - Rigs: Bah, useless. As the op said, ship implants. Thus, even more reason not to get your ship popped, but necessary to make some ships fit. Carebear-itis expands. - Invention: Needed. Haven't tried it at all. - T2 Ammo Rebalance: Not much experience. - ECM: ECCM should be more practical, in my opinion. Don't nerf, boost. Genesis Project
Arushia Nova Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.10 23:36:00 - [49] I think... It's not finished. There's a ton of balance issues to work out with the new ships and HP increase. It'll probably take a while to get everything right, and I really don't expect to see Kali on TQ till at least January.
DeadDuck Omega Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.11 01:23:00 - [50] TBH I'm very excited with the upcoming changes... it's a complete new game in a lot of aspects and thats good. The ECM nerf (or at least some), the new regions, the rigs, inventions, the new ships, PVP revisited, the insta removal, etc... is just WOW ... saying EVE will suck based on some minutes of experience in test server and jumping to conclusions is a bit rushed isnt it ?? PS: for the 30m pilot ... if you think that you gonna be fighting someone for 30m in tranquility server you are wrong, and I'm sure that you know that will not happen. And BTW the PVP fights/fits in Singularity are not the same of the ones in Tranquility, but I'm sure you know that alsow
Segmentor Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.11 01:34:00 - [51] PvP revisited you say... Devs said the same, "...some vast changes to the combat system..." ... Thanx but no thanx. ---
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.11.11 01:40:00 - [52] Edited by: Malthros Zenobia on 11/11/2006 01:44:41 I don't think it's going to be nearly as bad as people think. How many of these extremely long fights are being done with setups both parties will actually use? Who cares if someone's pure-tank Drake can sit there and tank 3 people? The reality of EVE is that person isn't going out solo in that pure tank setup, and iirc, there's a 50% boost to shield regen coming to offset the hp gains to prevent uber passive tanks, if that's the case, these god-like passive tanks are a moot point, because they'll cease to exist. People are saying BS vs BS is taking along time, well, the whole point of these changes is so that fights last longer. Now, the lack of cap needs addressed, and I think everyone agrees a 25% boost to cap for all ships, and a boost to cap given by cap batteries, will help ALOT. Also, make the cap ammount from cap batteries immune to NOS, meaning if I have 2500 cap extra from batteries, your NOS and neuts can get me to 2500 cap at worst, and at that point, you're sucking nothing. That would help somewhat with NOS, by giving atleast a minor counter. Originally by: Wrayeth Originally by: Kristoffer I've been in over 20 battleship 1v1s on the test server in the last day and a half. Against incompetent pilots and pilots with low sp fights would last around 10 minutes. Against pilots who have a clue about what Kali is about, they'd last twenty minutes or more. The longest of my fights went 27 minutes, Hyperion vs Rokh. That is not fun, nor is it exciting. That is just stupid. I'm with you on this one. This is why my account is cancelled - solo PvP will be dead. Can I have your stuff (other than high velocity ammo charges)? Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.11.11 01:43:00 - [53] I love the new changes. I can't wait until the systems are tweaked but this is the best thing to happen in EVE. Most of the people I hear whine 'omg' are people who a) don't like change b) have low charisma c) coward empire pirates (cry me a river coward) d) people that talk like they played WoW/SWG and left them after the games they played changed STFU and learn the new systems muppets PS nerf HAMs Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
DeadDuck Omega Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.11 01:51:00 - [54] Originally by: Segmentor PvP revisited you say... Devs said the same, "...some vast changes to the combat system..." ... Thanx but no thanx. I say bring it... the 10 secs fight will be over ... the unsustainable setups that we see to day to deploy the maximum dps possible are condemned, and I'm glad... I smile when I see people continuing to compare ships only based on DPS ... fortunatelly we will see other factors taking is right place in a ships duel final result, INCLUDING pilots expertise manouvering the ship.
Thaylon Sen The Rat Pack	Posted - 2006.11.11 04:15:00 - [55] I like it... bring it on.
Happydayz FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.11 04:52:00 - [56] I didn't even think about the ctrl-q problem as it relates to higher hitpoints. Truth be told that makes any discussions about PvP purely academic. It's already becoming fairly prevalent now, and as more people do it it becomes increasingly acceptable.
A Brr Gallente Tech-5-Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.11 06:08:00 - [57] Sure you can look for contracts in other regions. But you can not accept them while in a diffrent region. And worse, if one of your contracts have finished, eg. auction, you have to be in the contracts region to get the money and free up this slot for a new contract. Originally by: Ruze My ideas, unrelated to response by others: ... - Contracts System: Should work seamlessly with the market. Players should be able to sell anything on the market, including faction equipment. Regional contracts are a nerf to the global escrow, but I swear I saw a function to look at other regions specifically. Will have to double check. --- The greatest crap CCP designed into EVE: Next generation manufacturing.
Barony Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.11 13:36:00 - [58] My personal thoughts? Im glad i heavily specialised in mining and industry and not ship / weapon / combat specific skilltrees. They seem to have left mining relatively unharmed and just added the joy of salvaging :D
Ashira Twilight	Posted - 2006.11.11 15:47:00 - [59] New ships = awesome Invention = awesome Rigs allowing more customization = awesome Contracts getting rid of escrow being chock full of idiotic scams? = awesome The rest, I am not so sure about. Longer combat, making nos even more important.....yuck. A few months ago I created an Amarr alt to pirate with using smaller ships, nothing bigger than a battlecruiser. The hp boost makes smaller ships less attractive, I don't see how most will be able to take down anything bigger than itself. These movies I watch of rifters taking down caracals...doesn't look like that will be a common sight after kali hits TQ. Revelations should be renamed to NOSFEST 2007.
Arushia Nova Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.11 18:41:00 - [60] Originally by: Barony My personal thoughts? Im glad i heavily specialised in mining and industry and not ship / weapon / combat specific skilltrees. They seem to have left mining relatively unharmed and just added the joy of salvaging :D Likewise. Though I sometimes like to hop into drone ships and run missions. Therefore <3 6/4/6 Myrmi.

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