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Tsar Maul
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Posted - 2006.11.12 00:24:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Tsar Maul on 12/11/2006 00:28:51 Discuss Ishtar vs Dominix in another thread
As for utility drones, personally I think it would be good to have the choice of carrying both combat and utility drones to let you switch depending on the circumstances. It would allow ships to be more flexable and unpredictable without completely breaking game balance.
Originally by: Tasty Burger It lets drone boats have spares, while also stopping the ridiculous damage that ishkurs/ishtars put out. Frigates should only be able to use smalls, cruisers mediums, in my opinion.
My suggestion doesn't change drone DPS at all.
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keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.12 00:28:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Elve Sorrow This is, ofcourse, a brilliant idea.
It'll never make it ingame.
Sad, but true.
Signed anyway, for what its worth. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
hattifnatt
Gallente The Movement
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Posted - 2006.11.12 00:29:00 -
[33]
Edited by: hattifnatt on 12/11/2006 00:32:19 Missread OP 400x120@24000 Bytes Maximum please. -Capsicum ___ /o.0\ \___/ <-- This is Jigglypuff!! [ |
Tasty Burger
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Posted - 2006.11.12 00:32:00 -
[34]
Originally by: hattifnatt Its a decent idea but it has flaws. For example if a domi has 25points and in your example a medium drone takes 2p so it can launch 12medium drones.
12 hammerhead IIs + drone dmg bonus and good skills = 559,86DPS
However changing the it to 3points per medium drones. You can now launch 8 medium drones and get 373DPS* and that is still way to high compared to heavy drones.
Another problem with this is that ships with large dronebays would be able to launch hordes of light drones, and that would create lag. (which was why the drones in space was limited to 5.)
*with good skills
READ THE POST.
The drone launch number would stay the same. - It's great being Minmatar, ain't it? |
Justice Bringer
Minmatar United Univers
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Posted - 2006.11.12 00:33:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Tasty Burger I agree completely.
It lets drone boats have spares, while also stopping the ridiculous damage that ishkurs/ishtars put out. Frigates should only be able to use smalls, cruisers mediums, in my opinion.
Currently, smaller drone ships put out a simply obscene damage. Ishtars should not be doing the same damage as a dominix.
This idea gets my approval.
That of course is your own opinion, but I don't agree with your reasoning. Next you'll be suggesting that the Deimos shouldn't have 2 damage bonuses which effectively mean it's a BS killer (which is what it is meant for) or that any of the other HAS ships shouldn't have their second bonus that they have.
Just remeber that an Ishtar or an Ishkur are still only cruisers and frigs albeit with higher resistances, but they will pop just like any other ship if you know what to do, and if you don't know what to do, you'll complain and say they're too powerful....
Learn how my friend, but if you cannot, then just buy one.
Justice (currently flying in my Ishtar with 27 drones in the bay)
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JustBlaze
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Posted - 2006.11.12 00:33:00 -
[36]
**** straight /signed
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keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.12 00:34:00 -
[37]
Edited by: keepiru on 12/11/2006 00:34:05 i like cake.
this idea = cake.
therefore, i like it.
make it happen. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
Tasty Burger
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Posted - 2006.11.12 00:35:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Tsar Maul
Originally by: Tasty Burger It lets drone boats have spares, while also stopping the ridiculous damage that ishkurs/ishtars put out. Frigates should only be able to use smalls, cruisers mediums, in my opinion.
My suggestion doesn't change drone DPS at all.
Well, I personally think that this change SHOULD help stop the unfairness of 4 mediums on an ishkur, for example. I don't think cruisers should have enough to fit 5 heavy drones. Perhaps the ishtar could get enough for 3 heavies and 2 mediums, though. - It's great being Minmatar, ain't it? |
Old Geeza
The Retirement Home
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Posted - 2006.11.12 00:35:00 -
[39]
Originally by: keepiru Edited by: keepiru on 12/11/2006 00:34:05 i like cake.
this idea = cake.
therefore, i like it.
make it happen.
That's not what you originally had
_______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues! |
Tsar Maul
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Posted - 2006.11.12 00:38:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Tasty Burger
Originally by: Tsar Maul
Originally by: Tasty Burger It lets drone boats have spares, while also stopping the ridiculous damage that ishkurs/ishtars put out. Frigates should only be able to use smalls, cruisers mediums, in my opinion.
My suggestion doesn't change drone DPS at all.
Well, I personally think that this change SHOULD help stop the unfairness of 4 mediums on an ishkur, for example. I don't think cruisers should have enough to fit 5 heavy drones. Perhaps the ishtar could get enough for 3 heavies and 2 mediums, though.
Ah I see what you mean now :). I agree - it could be used to balance certain ships (although I don't see anything wrong with the Ishtar as it has F/A turret DPS, but the Ishkur could do with nerf batting).
Anyway, like I said, that is something to be brought up if the changes get in. Ideally, this thread should be about comments/critiques of the system itself.
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keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.12 00:39:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Tasty Burger I don't think cruisers should have enough to fit 5 heavy drones. Perhaps the ishtar could get enough for 3 heavies and 2 mediums, though.
Why not? Its the only way a HAC/BC can do as much damage as its peers while remaining a true droneship. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
Tasty Burger
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Posted - 2006.11.12 00:39:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Justice Bringer
Originally by: Tasty Burger I agree completely.
It lets drone boats have spares, while also stopping the ridiculous damage that ishkurs/ishtars put out. Frigates should only be able to use smalls, cruisers mediums, in my opinion.
Currently, smaller drone ships put out a simply obscene damage. Ishtars should not be doing the same damage as a dominix.
This idea gets my approval.
That of course is your own opinion, but I don't agree with your reasoning. Next you'll be suggesting that the Deimos shouldn't have 2 damage bonuses which effectively mean it's a BS killer (which is what it is meant for) or that any of the other HAS ships shouldn't have their second bonus that they have.
Not really, because the ishtar does deimos-like damage without using any cap or fitting and with higher range. Thats what I have an issue with. Its simply better than a deimos. - It's great being Minmatar, ain't it? |
Justice Bringer
Minmatar United Univers
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Posted - 2006.11.12 00:40:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Tasty Burger
Originally by: Tsar Maul
Originally by: Tasty Burger It lets drone boats have spares, while also stopping the ridiculous damage that ishkurs/ishtars put out. Frigates should only be able to use smalls, cruisers mediums, in my opinion.
My suggestion doesn't change drone DPS at all.
Well, I personally think that this change SHOULD help stop the unfairness of 4 mediums on an ishkur, for example. I don't think cruisers should have enough to fit 5 heavy drones. Perhaps the ishtar could get enough for 3 heavies and 2 mediums, though.
I'm sure you'll find that an Ishkur doesn't put out as much damage as an Enyo, even if it does field 4 med drones.
And in any respect, most decent drone pilots will not fill their drone bay with drones that will not leave room for any spare, precisely what the op is trying to suggest ships should have.
If you find yourself up against an Ishkur with 4 med drones kill them nad his dps is greatly diminished.
Justice
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keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.12 00:41:00 -
[44]
Anyway, once this is implemented, its easy enough to give the Ish/Myrm enough CP for 4 heavyes with a 300m3 drone bay, problem solved tbh. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
Tsar Maul
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Posted - 2006.11.12 00:42:00 -
[45]
Originally by: keepiru Anyway, once this is implemented, its easy enough to give the Ish/Myrm enough CP for 4 heavyes with a 300m3 drone bay, problem solved tbh.
To be honest, it is that ship that got me thinking about this idea - how can you limit the DPS but still give it room for spares. It seemed logical to extend the idea to all ships.
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Ergo Morte
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.11.12 00:49:00 -
[46]
Wow, just wow. What a startlingly poor grasp of why you have drone ships. The entire point of a drone ship is sustainable DPS with drones or a large degree of versatility with different drone types. You just want to hand out to everyone the unique trait of Gallente.
Why not just have open high slots and univeral damage bonuses so everyone can fit any weapon type they want and why are Mimater ships so much faster than everyone they should have speed points to let me have a Vaga without bothering to train any skills. If you want sustainable drone ships train Gallente just like if you want the options of any other race.
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keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.12 00:59:00 -
[47]
Perhaps you should amend that this gives the possibility of giving ships replacement drones without increasing their dps, but does not necessarily mean all ships will have replacements. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
Tsar Maul
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Posted - 2006.11.12 00:59:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Tsar Maul on 12/11/2006 00:59:54
Originally by: Ergo Morte Wow, just wow. What a startlingly poor grasp of why you have drone ships. The entire point of a drone ship is sustainable DPS with drones or a large degree of versatility with different drone types. You just want to hand out to everyone the unique trait of Gallente.
Why not just have open high slots and univeral damage bonuses so everyone can fit any weapon type they want and why are Mimater ships so much faster than everyone they should have speed points to let me have a Vaga without bothering to train any skills. If you want sustainable drone ships train Gallente just like if you want the options of any other race.
Funny, I thought the entire point of drone ships was to dish out loads of consistant damage while freeing up their highs for nos and their mids for ewar, while also having their damage output unaffected by the likes of tracking disruptors, sensor damps and ECM applied tot he ship. The fact that you can carry 3 waves of heavy drones is an added bonus for when someone brings a blob along and you have to run away very quickly.
I ask you this. Would you rather have a Dominix with 15 heavies, or a Dominix with 45-60 heavies and/or assorted ECM, sentry, small, medium and light drones?
Exactly.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.12 01:09:00 -
[49]
Originally by: keepiru Anyway, once this is implemented, its easy enough to give the Ish/Myrm enough CP for 4 heavyes with a 300m3 drone bay, problem solved tbh.
For that specific ships ir would IMO be better just to limit them to 4 drones. There already exists an rare vexor faction model which has as bonus +1 drone per lvl (was made before the drone changes, now the only ship which can use more then 5 drones at the ame time; only 75m¦ though and no 50% dps/hp boost).
Anyway, if it is possible to give ships +1 drone it should be no real problmes to give ships -1 drone.
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keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.12 01:11:00 -
[50]
That's daft, then it can only use 4 meds or 4 lights against smaller ships. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
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Guurzak
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.11.12 01:15:00 -
[51]
Conveniently, this proposal would also address the "5-sentry Vexor" exploit of scooping and redeploying more drone volume than you can fit in your bay at once.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.12 01:23:00 -
[52]
Originally by: keepiru That's daft, then it can only use 4 meds or 4 lights against smaller ships.
Considering heavies hit cruisers just as well as meds there's usually not much of a reason to use anytzhing other than heavies vs them (excluding maybe specific setups like a nanocurse). Only 4 lights vs frigs is another matter, but the advantage of having multiple flights of heavies (hell, being able to carry these 4 lights with you in the first place) IMO outweights this disadvantage.
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Tsar Maul
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Posted - 2006.11.12 01:24:00 -
[53]
I've added a "But..." because I can't get to sleep. I don't like it, but some people do.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.12 01:26:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Tsar Maul I can't get to sleep.
Et tu, Brutor?
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Awox
Finite Horizon The Red Skull
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Posted - 2006.11.12 01:28:00 -
[55]
/signed
I wish CCP had the balls to police their game. They probably prefer the income to having a decent game. |
Ergo Morte
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.11.12 02:50:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Tsar Maul Edited by: Tsar Maul on 12/11/2006 00:59:54
Originally by: Ergo Morte Wow, just wow. What a startlingly poor grasp of why you have drone ships. The entire point of a drone ship is sustainable DPS with drones or a large degree of versatility with different drone types. You just want to hand out to everyone the unique trait of Gallente.
Why not just have open high slots and univeral damage bonuses so everyone can fit any weapon type they want and why are Mimater ships so much faster than everyone they should have speed points to let me have a Vaga without bothering to train any skills. If you want sustainable drone ships train Gallente just like if you want the options of any other race.
Funny, I thought the entire point of drone ships was to dish out loads of consistant damage while freeing up their highs for nos and their mids for ewar, while also having their damage output unaffected by the likes of tracking disruptors, sensor damps and ECM applied tot he ship. The fact that you can carry 3 waves of heavy drones is an added bonus for when someone brings a blob along and you have to run away very quickly.
I ask you this. Would you rather have a Dominix with 15 heavies, or a Dominix with 45-60 heavies and/or assorted ECM, sentry, small, medium and light drones?
Exactly.
Glad to help correct your misconceptions.
In all seriousness though, the Nos ECM steup only works really well on the Domi and even then 2xNos, 1xneut and the rest as guns work better. Most droneship setups mount guns as well, drones are part of the formula not a panacea. Removing uniqueness is rarely a good thing.
Specifically addressing the Myrmidon it should have a bigger drone bay now that they took away a slot. Many Gallente have asked for a bigger drone bay and less turret hardpoints, for those that don't know that's actually asking for less DPS. Some have even advocated a ship with a huge drone bay but no turrets. As envisioned the Myr fails, its' tank is too weak and its' DPS with only 4 heavys is too low to break the uber tanks that can be mounted on some other BCs.
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Weirda
Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.12 03:28:00 -
[57]
this is very good idea. obviously every ship wouldn't get their drone bay tripled (points to person above), if anything the 'drone boat' would get a lot more of a bay boost purely as it is their main (even only in some case) source of DPS. until we can shoot guns off ship it only make sense to have replacement drone. __ Weirda Join QotSA
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Ergo Morte
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.11.12 04:33:00 -
[58]
Don't believe the hype Weirda. this idea will warp into a Gallente stealth nerf assuming that's not its' original intent. You can already see the beginning of it in this thread.
If anything as silly as this idea gets implemented it won't be a day before there is a whine thread about how cruisers and BCs shouldn't be able to field battleship weapons. All because there is an overage of persons totally ignorant of the fact that drones are a single tier waepon system. Small, medium and heavy just like electron, ion and neutron blasters. The difference being that drone space controls what can be fitted as oppossed to PG/CPU.
Drones are not turrets, they are not missiles and as such cannot be treated as either. There is no upside to this idea for Gallente ship users.
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Bombasy
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.11.12 06:10:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Bombasy on 12/11/2006 06:12:54
Originally by: Ergo Morte Don't believe the hype Weirda. this idea will warp into a Gallente stealth nerf assuming that's not its' original intent. You can already see the beginning of it in this thread.
If anything as silly as this idea gets implemented it won't be a day before there is a whine thread about how cruisers and BCs shouldn't be able to field battleship weapons. All because there is an overage of persons totally ignorant of the fact that drones are a single tier waepon system. Small, medium and heavy just like electron, ion and neutron blasters. The difference being that drone space controls what can be fitted as oppossed to PG/CPU.
Drones are not turrets, they are not missiles and as such cannot be treated as either. There is no upside to this idea for Gallente ship users.
You're a disgrace to Gallente pilots. This will not be a nerf to gallente, just because they can give bigger drone bays to ships doesn't mean they will. But ships that could benefit from it will, yes, that includes the yarrbitrator and the curse/pilgrim in my book.
And if they give more drones to other people, think about it, you'll have a better assortment of drones to deal with their drones.
This idea is perfect for the Myrmidon, TsarMaul I salute you and welcome your idea. Your signature is inappropriate. If you have any questions, email us at [email protected] Tirg
Your signature is inappropriate. Please email [email protected] if you want to know why -Eldo
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Kolhell
Minmatar CAD Inc. Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2006.11.12 08:40:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Kolhell on 12/11/2006 08:45:39 Edited by: Kolhell on 12/11/2006 08:42:53 great idea, but im not a fan of the "but" you added. i thought youd have gotten past the point where you cared what other people think about your opinions by now ^^
as far as ecm drones go maybe set some separate limitations on them? honestly i dont think being able to carry that many different drones will imbalance gameplay for more than a short while as people figure out how to adapt, and if anything it will add more of that precious "strategy" ccp keeps trying to add to pvp.
not to mention being able to swap out types of drones mid-combat like swapping ammo would be teh seks :D
omg... just thinking about it... youd actually have a skill that would shorten the "reload" time of the drones (that +velocity one) which would further help to balance out drone boats losing some of their edge since pilots of those ships tend to have drone skills maxed out.
and re: the loss of that edge... you do realize that while a normal boat would be able to fit (omg) 2-3 spare sets of drones, youd be able to fly with EVERY set you could ever want and even then have spares on most of your ships.
------------------------- bury the hatchet |
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