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Mihae
Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.12 09:18:00 -
[61]
/Signed \o/
Sponsored by Sarmaul
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king jks
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Posted - 2006.11.12 09:34:00 -
[62]
Signed, for what its worth. I also fully and whole heartedly support rigs to give you +drone space, that would be a really good improvement, if not fix to this problem.
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Takahashi Arran
Havoc Inc
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Posted - 2006.11.12 09:50:00 -
[63]
not signed. though the idea has potential - how do drone control points reset? at this time you seem to be removing the major intentional weakness of smaller drone ships which is that thier drones can be destroyed. If however you only get your drone control point back if the drone is returned to its bay or another event happens (possibly you "reload" your drone control points like you would guns (although this may need to take longer or take a large chunk of cap or something to increase its downsides),losing control of all in space but allowing you to refresh after a fight or switch tactics on the fly as was your original intention). If you implement these limits as well to ensure a ship can't keep launching drones once i shoot them down
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.12 10:54:00 -
[64]
What would be the point of introducing this new limit and then turn around and reprieving the ships the fix is designed to help the ability to launch new drones?
It is very simple, really. Drone Control Points ('s not a new concept, mind you) aims to increase drone bays without increasing drone potential. It would also give the devs a bit more control over distinguishing drone ships, for example: the Arbitrator and the Vexor are very similar, but the Arbitrator with it's EWar bonus is superior. By introducing drone points, both ships can be limited to 10 points (5 medium drones) while the Vexor can be allowed a larger drone bay for more replacements or more versatility than the Arbitrator (which has it's versatility from it's med slots, something the Vexor can not do.) - EVE is sick. |
Tsar Maul
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Posted - 2006.11.12 12:12:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Kolhell great idea, but im not a fan of the "but" you added. i thought youd have gotten past the point where you cared what other people think about your opinions by now ^^
If you look at Khanid MK II you'll see I did it there too (remove laser cap bonus). Never change the core ideal, just add a footnote at the end to keep everyone happy.
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Tsar Maul
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Posted - 2006.11.12 14:16:00 -
[66]
Now to address some issues arised in this thread.
Originally by: Ergo Morte Don't believe the hype Weirda. this idea will warp into a Gallente stealth nerf assuming that's not its' original intent. You can already see the beginning of it in this thread.
The only "nerf" is that 3 gallente ships lose their "backup drones" advantage. Those 3 ships are the Dominix, Ishtar and Eos. What those ships would gain is the ability to carry more drones than they knew what do do with. Drones for all occasions. 9 waves of heavies, or 6 waves and 3 waves of ECM. With all the crying that the ECM nerf is going to render the Dominix obsolete, this change would allow it to gain far more verstatility (spamming ECM isn't versatility, it's a one-trick pony that happened to be very overpowered) by allowing it to pack drones for every situation it comes across. Heavies, logistics, lights, ECM, nos, painters, you name it, it can carry them. How many Dominix pilots have moaned "if you lose your drones 3 times you've lost all DPS". That would be fixed with this, as only truely idiotic Dominix pilots could lose 9 waves of heavies.
Originally by: Ergo Morte If anything as silly as this idea gets implemented it won't be a day before there is a whine thread about how cruisers and BCs shouldn't be able to field battleship weapons. All because there is an overage of persons totally ignorant of the fact that drones are a single tier waepon system. Small, medium and heavy just like electron, ion and neutron blasters. The difference being that drone space controls what can be fitted as oppossed to PG/CPU.
Did you actually read past "increase the drone bay on each ships"? Doesn't look like it to me. THE WHOLE IDEA OF DRONE CONTROL POINTS IS TO ALLOW SHIPS TO CARRY SPARE DRONES WITHOUT ALLOWING THEM TO FIELD MORE DRONES OR BIGGER DRONES THAN THEY CAN NOW. Keep reading that until it finally gets through to you. The Rupture will still only be able to launch 3 medium drones, but it has room to store more just in case it loses them. It won't, with a 90m3 drone bay, be allowed to launch 3 heavies and 2 mediums. Instead of drone bay size limited what can and can't be fielded, Drone Control Points will.
Is it really that hard to understand that no ship will get a DPS increase from this?
Quote: Drones are not turrets, they are not missiles and as such cannot be treated as either. There is no upside to this idea for Gallente ship users.
You sir, have proved yourself to a clueless troll. "XXX isn't like YYY" is the final arguement people use when they can't think up any proper arguments. This won't change drones. It won't change damage, it will simply allow all ships to carry spares.
Got it?
Originally by: Takahashi Arran not signed. though the idea has potential - how do drone control points reset? at this time you seem to be removing the major intentional weakness of smaller drone ships which is that thier drones can be destroyed. If however you only get your drone control point back if the drone is returned to its bay or another event happens (possibly you "reload" your drone control points like you would guns (although this may need to take longer or take a large chunk of cap or something to increase its downsides),losing control of all in space but allowing you to refresh after a fight or switch tactics on the fly as was your original intention). If you implement these limits as well to ensure a ship can't keep launching drones once i shoot them down
I hadn't actually given this much thought, but you're right it is important. I'm not sure what the solution is for that, but the ideas you've come up with are similar to what I would have said (assuming it is identified as a key problem with relaunching drones).
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Old Geeza
The Retirement Home
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Posted - 2006.11.12 16:59:00 -
[67]
Not sure if this has been brought up, but what about the ships with drone bays only slightly larger than 125m3? They were supposed to be given a bit of extra versatility with the drones they can carry without being overpowered.
_______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues! |
Pinky Denmark
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Posted - 2006.11.12 17:13:00 -
[68]
You could also just give all ship a stat called: "max drones in space" working exactly like "max locked targets".
Simple to put in and ALMOST same result.
Or just limit drones to work with specific ships like ammo does (rockets only fit in rocket launchers) :
Heavy drone - works with battleship, dreadnought and carrier Medium drone - works with cruisers, battlecruisers, battleships Light Drones - works with frigates, cruisers, battlecruisers
Or something like that...
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Old Geeza
The Retirement Home
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Posted - 2006.11.12 17:18:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Pinky Denmark You could also just give all ship a stat called: "max drones in space" working exactly like "max locked targets".
Erm... how would that help prevent cruisers launching 5 heavies if they are given a bigger drone bay?
As for limiting drones to certain ships - no no no no no no no.
_______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues! |
Kolhell
Minmatar CAD Inc. Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2006.11.12 17:27:00 -
[70]
/cough max m3 of drones in space?
were just arguing semantics at this point. how ccp decides to implement this idea is completely up to them and what will minimize resource usage (honestly i think sarmauls idea would be a complete resource hog but it doesnt take a rocket scientist to streamline code).
we need to figure out how TO GET ccp to implement this idea, NOT how they should script it.
------------------------- bury the hatchet |
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Tsar Maul
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Posted - 2006.11.12 17:51:00 -
[71]
Drone control points = max m3 in space, divided by 5. It's just a much easier way of remembering things (and smaller numbers = good for idiots).
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Parallax Error
Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.12 18:05:00 -
[72]
Best idea I've seen since for a long time. Apart from everyone trying to point out that the current tier 3 BS lineup is daft... but thats damage limitation.
Why can't CCP sit down and actually give some decent thought to mechanics and come up with decent solutions like this?
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Nicholai Pestot
Gallente Havoc Inc
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Posted - 2006.11.12 18:12:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Nicholai Pestot on 12/11/2006 18:13:00 Very good idea .
________________ What you do is you store up the rage, let it fester while you gain strength, then use it to gank those weaker than you... and so the circle of life is complete |
Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.12 18:34:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Parallax Error Best idea I've seen since for a long time. Apart from everyone trying to point out that the current tier 3 BS lineup is daft... but thats damage limitation.
Why can't CCP sit down and actually give some decent thought to mechanics and come up with decent solutions like this?
I like the following quote fetched from Civilization 4:
The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.
I think it applies. Every change and idea need to go through a grinding process, and be approved of by several people. Sometimes that means the ideas get daft at the end of the line, or doesn't make it at all. - EVE is sick. |
Frezik
Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap
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Posted - 2006.11.12 18:49:00 -
[75]
/signed
This also brings in the possibility of introducing the drone bay size modules (which have been in the database for a long time but never released) and maybe rigs for doing the same, too. These modules would have made indys into 0.4 drone spamming grievers, but control points avoids that problem.
It also creates a mechanic for a drone-specific counter module that reduces the target's drone control points.
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Dalaq
Minmatar Servant's of order
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Posted - 2006.11.12 19:07:00 -
[76]
Signed!
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Ergo Morte
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.11.12 20:33:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Tsar Maul Now to address some issues arised in this thread.
Originally by: Ergo Morte Don't believe the hype Weirda. this idea will warp into a Gallente stealth nerf assuming that's not its' original intent. You can already see the beginning of it in this thread.
The only "nerf" is that 3 gallente ships lose their "backup drones" advantage. Those 3 ships are the Dominix, Ishtar and Eos. What those ships would gain is the ability to carry more drones than they knew what do do with. Drones for all occasions. 9 waves of heavies, or 6 waves and 3 waves of ECM. With all the crying that the ECM nerf is going to render the Dominix obsolete, this change would allow it to gain far more verstatility (spamming ECM isn't versatility, it's a one-trick pony that happened to be very overpowered) by allowing it to pack drones for every situation it comes across. Heavies, logistics, lights, ECM, nos, painters, you name it, it can carry them. How many Dominix pilots have moaned "if you lose your drones 3 times you've lost all DPS". That would be fixed with this, as only truely idiotic Dominix pilots could lose 9 waves of heavies.
Originally by: Ergo Morte If anything as silly as this idea gets implemented it won't be a day before there is a whine thread about how cruisers and BCs shouldn't be able to field battleship weapons. All because there is an overage of persons totally ignorant of the fact that drones are a single tier waepon system. Small, medium and heavy just like electron, ion and neutron blasters. The difference being that drone space controls what can be fitted as oppossed to PG/CPU.
Did you actually read past "increase the drone bay on each ships"? Doesn't look like it to me. THE WHOLE IDEA OF DRONE CONTROL POINTS IS TO ALLOW SHIPS TO CARRY SPARE DRONES WITHOUT ALLOWING THEM TO FIELD MORE DRONES OR BIGGER DRONES THAN THEY CAN NOW. Keep reading that until it finally gets through to you. The Rupture will still only be able to launch 3 medium drones, but it has room to store more just in case it loses them. It won't, with a 90m3 drone bay, be allowed to launch 3 heavies and 2 mediums. Instead of drone bay size limited what can and can't be fielded, Drone Control Points will.
Is it really that hard to understand that no ship will get a DPS increase from this?
Quote: Drones are not turrets, they are not missiles and as such cannot be treated as either. There is no upside to this idea for Gallente ship users.
You sir, have proved yourself to a clueless troll. "XXX isn't like YYY" is the final arguement people use when they can't think up any proper arguments. This won't change drones. It won't change damage, it will simply allow all ships to carry spares.
Got it?
How exactly is losing an advantage not a nerf? and its 6 Gallente ships, you forgot the Vexor, Ishkur and the upcoming Myrmidon. Further, since there are ECM rigs the NosEcmDomi is still going to be putting foot to rear with a few tweaks in any event. The Domi is not, nor should it be an I-win button and more spares will give even less reason to not mount nos and neuts ( think about that for a moment ).
Is it really that hard to understand that replacement drones do increase damage over time. I spell that out to make it simpler to see the flaw in your logic, however I'll also explain. Without replacement drones damage from drones is reducable. I destroy one of your drones your DPS is lowered, permanently. So, over time, replacement drones do add damage.
Once the mechanic exists I see a thousand whine threads to stop the Ishtar, ishkur, Eos, vexor and Myrmidon from using "battleship" ( or in the case of the ishkur " cruiser " ) weapons.
So here's what you idea actually does is make a halfarse fix for the Myr, hand out more dps to everyone and make the Domi an even more ungodly Ewar beast.
( Hmmm, an even more ganktastic Domi ) You know what, I change my mind, your right.
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Tera Kubayashi
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Posted - 2006.11.12 21:49:00 -
[78]
Signed indeed, the idea makes sense to me. Not sure it will happen tho :/
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Parallax Error
Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.12 22:35:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Ithildin
I like the following quote fetched from Civilization 4:
The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.
I think it applies. Every change and idea need to go through a grinding process, and be approved of by several people. Sometimes that means the ideas get daft at the end of the line, or doesn't make it at all.
It's a good point, I'd just expect that the greater number of people see it, the more likely one bright spark is going to spot the best solution.
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.12 22:38:00 -
[80]
Ergo Morte, you really haven't understood the idea at all. Read everything again, after you've taken a step back and calmed down. You're all over the place, failing at every step.
The idea excel at one thing: addressing the issue with smaller drone ships unable to carry replacements.
The Ishkur, Vexor, Arbitrator, Imicus, etc are not meant to carry or use heavy drones, yet if they lose a single drone their damage is reduced until they find a station where they can refill. Not any station, the station must have a supply of drones as well. The Dominix, already having more than two flights of drones, is not really affected by the change at all.
If you persist in your ignorant rambling, then justify why a pulse laser should not be lost if the Armageddon flee. Justify why the Siege Launcher should not be rendered inactive if a torpedo is shot down by a defender. This you need to do.
During a fight, you destroy drones. If the drone carrier has replacements in drone bay, the total damage will still be reduced for several vital seconds. Not only does the drone carrier need to launch and command the replacement drones, a procedure which takes time, it also needs to detect that the drones are lost.
Destroying drones is a tactical choice the other party need to make, it is not a question of the blind "kill the drone and he's a sitting duck".
In the end, the drone ship is only comparable and balanced with it's peers when all it's drones are intact and operational. - EVE is sick. |
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Tasty Burger
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Posted - 2006.11.12 22:43:00 -
[81]
Just thought of something.
This change would remove the only disadvantage of drones: them being killed. Currently they're already really hard to kill, especially with the instant shield recharge. - It's great being Minmatar, ain't it? |
Yamaeda
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Posted - 2006.11.12 22:46:00 -
[82]
Drone control points is an elegant solution, but why not simply allow for drone bay to "reload" by as an extra option in the r-click menu of the drone window. It would require no drones in local space and be a rather slow procedure as to not reload mid fight (say 1 minute). Thus you'd have most of the current mechanics and balances but with a reload possibility, like other ammo-limited weapons do (missiles, proj's, hybrids)
/Y ---------- It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.11.12 23:12:00 -
[83]
Honestly, this should have been done like a year ago.
Implement immediately. Or at least tell us that this will be coming SoonÖ.
This is much better than a seemless map tbh.
Nyxus
It's great being Amarr, ain't it?Ö
Originally by: Tuxford I love how you guys can take stats from a test server that is few months out of date and then panic over them.
Gee, wonder why..
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.12 23:25:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Tasty Burger Just thought of something.
This change would remove the only disadvantage of drones: them being killed. Currently they're already really hard to kill, especially with the instant shield recharge.
The instant shield recharge is only when engaging a drone carrier in really close combat. And you aren't shooting the drones for any other reason than to reduce the drone carrier's damage, so there is very little problem - for a while the drone will not do damage until it is replaced.
BUT, remains is that the instant shield recharge need to be addressed and removed.
So. How about increasing ammo size by 100 times? I'm sure the reason for ammo to be wasted is that the turrets and launchers would eventually run out of ammo and need station/carrier-based resupply. No? Am I completely disoriented? - EVE is sick. |
Old Geeza
The Retirement Home
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Posted - 2006.11.13 10:16:00 -
[85]
No dev wub?
_______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues! |
Peter Stuyvesant
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.11.13 14:30:00 -
[86]
Back to the top for a great idea.
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Naran Darkmood
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.11.13 15:06:00 -
[87]
/signed as well
With this, shield recharge when scooping & redeploying drones has to be fixed.
Maybe also give it a 5 sec deploy delay when launching drones for reasons like the Drone controll computer has to re-calibrate for the new drones. Don't make it the 10 sec you need to change ammo, because this would be 5 sec lost at the beginning of a fight and you also have to count traveling time of the drones.
This delay would also get the tactical consideration into the game of sustaining dps with the same drones or loosing some dps to change to a more appropriate damage/Ewar type.
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Kolhell
Minmatar CAD Inc. Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2006.11.13 21:01:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Kolhell on 13/11/2006 21:04:41 ergo - thank you for pointing out flaws in this idea. its better to work to fix something ahead of time rather than go "oops" after the fact like what seems to happen most often
Originally by: Naran Darkmood /signed as well
With this, shield recharge when scooping & redeploying drones has to be fixed.
Maybe also give it a 5 sec deploy delay when launching drones for reasons like the Drone controll computer has to re-calibrate for the new drones. Don't make it the 10 sec you need to change ammo, because this would be 5 sec lost at the beginning of a fight and you also have to count traveling time of the drones.
This delay would also get the tactical consideration into the game of sustaining dps with the same drones or loosing some dps to change to a more appropriate damage/Ewar type.
i think that a redeploy timer would go a long ways to keep shooting drones a viable tactic, and it does make sense as all other weapons (whos different ammo actually DOES something different /cough amarr) have a reload time on them as well. this would also fix the problem with the shields recharging to full, as it would take time for those drones to get recharged.
the other option suggested was to force a ship to somehow "repair" drone control points after drones get shot down. i can see this being significantly more cumbersome to implement than the redeploy timer, however, and the question will arise "where can we regain lost drone control points?" i dont think it would be fair to force a ship to dock, as in 0.0 that is not always an option (if it was we could just dock and move drones from cargo to bay, not taking cargo space into account anyways)
i really like narans idea. perhaps it could be implemented as an X lag time after hitting launch from when the drones actually exit your ship? that would hardly take any work i think. any glaring flaws? it wouldnt reduce initial dps because you could begin launching your drones while you target. 5s might be a little harsh since this will adversely affect ships that rely on redeploying drones quickly (domi etc) but 3s would probably be just about right and would be balanced out by the ability to carry every drone you could ever want i think.
------------------------- bury the hatchet |
General Xerxes
GREY COUNCIL Breidablik
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Posted - 2006.11.14 19:44:00 -
[89]
I think this is a great idea! It might help unnerf drones a bit in terms of Kali, cos it would allow more spares which counters the shooting down drones strategy, and it might cause people like me who use drones as their main, and sometimes only, weapon to use more logitics and ewar drones cos we can fit them without nerfing our DPS.
What about Fighters, though? You can't make them cost 1000 points or carriers will be launching 15000 light drones to swarm targets. I guess making them 5 points would probably work
CCP, you really should implement this idea!
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Jarmon Karlentis
Caldari Setenta Corp Xelas Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.15 01:17:00 -
[90]
OP makes sense to me. /signed.
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