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j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.11.12 08:34:00 -
[31]
"lol, so now you decide who can use lasers based on your fantacy of balance, yeah..right ;)"
... How exactly pointing out some class of ships is well suited for some type of weapon equals telling who can use those weapons?
For what's worth, there seems to be amazing number of people who think your precious lasers are the best weapon to use even on ships which were not designed to use them... so give me a break with your 'fantacy of balance' how higher requirements even it all out so there's no need to change anything -- if things were indeed balanced, you would expect to see all types of weapons used in comparable numbers. If the hybrids sucked but lasers weren't the strongest, you would at least expect to see comparable numbers of people using lasers and projectiles. Yet strangely enough, neither appears to be the case.
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.11.12 09:59:00 -
[32]
The fact I use lasers on my Scorpion and people use lasers on their Megathron is not indicative of balance.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Ranx Xerox
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Posted - 2003.11.12 15:35:00 -
[33]
Hi pal, sorry but a fighter beginner question :
I see people making often 800 - 1000 damage with a 1400 MM proj when the strongest Hybrid make 250 - 300 (with similars skills). It's about 200 - 300 % damage change so when i see that specs on hybrids will just move them about 110 - 120 % i hope i make a big error somewhere in number :)
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Sinista
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Posted - 2003.11.12 16:59:00 -
[34]
Just a quick question about Standard Crystals. Has anyone actually seen one outside of the Chaos test ammo hangers? I haven't seen these crystals anywhere else.
Is this an oversight or are they just hidden in a weird place? |
CobraMac
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Posted - 2003.11.12 17:49:00 -
[35]
 Quote:
... How exactly pointing out some class of ships is well suited for some type of weapon equals telling who can use those weapons?
You didnt state they were well suited, you stated they ARE TO BE FITTED implying that lasers must be fitted on that ship.
Quote:
For what's worth, there seems to be amazing number of people who think your precious lasers are the best weapon to use even on ships which were not designed to use them... so give me a break with your 'fantacy of balance' how higher requirements even it all out so there's no need to change anything -- if things were indeed balanced, you would expect to see all types of weapons used in comparable numbers. If the hybrids sucked but lasers weren't the strongest, you would at least expect to see comparable numbers of people using lasers and projectiles. Yet strangely enough, neither appears to be the case.
Did i mentined in any of my posts that things were balanced ? i simply stated that large hybrids and especially rails were what needed a slight boost and that by doing an across the board nerf/boost was perhaps not required.
Forgive me for asking this, but are you a member of the development team ? do you have any numbers to substantiate how many players use what type of weapons or is this another one of your fantasy facts ?
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CobraMac
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Posted - 2003.11.12 17:57:00 -
[36]
Quote:
Fantasy of balance? what's that supposed to mean? What fantasy... she stated simple facts:
Facts, lol, her/his opinion more like it
Quote:
You've been ranting on 2 threads without a single argument and for no reason at all. Go read what changes are being discussed... try to understand them... and then voice you concerns presenting arguments.
Let me put it to you bluntly, go re-read my posts and see past your blinkers and u will see plenty of arguments/suggestions son.
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Crewman 6
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Posted - 2003.11.12 18:17:00 -
[37]
Quote:
Edited by: j0sephine on 11/11/2003 22:14:40
"Just remember that lasers cost far more than the others in terms of cap usage and fitting requirements, mmkay?  "
... And by default they are to be installed on the Amarr ships which has the largest capacitor, largest powergrid and bonus to capacitor recharge rate and/or energy turret cap usage. These features pretty much cancel the higher requirements of lasers, while still giving one the bonus of higher damage rate, non?..
And most of the other ships (other than Amarr) have large thermal and EM resistance in their armor. What this means is that the Amarr are screwed when against anything doing kinetic and explosive damage while using lasers.
Maybe lasers aren't all they are *****ed up to be
---------------------------------------------
I'm not prejudiced... I hate everyone.
Albert Camus once observed, "Integrity has no need of rules." The converse is also true: The degree of integrity is inversely proportional to the number and complexities of rules and bureaucracy. |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.11.12 18:43:00 -
[38]
Edited by: j0sephine on 12/11/2003 19:02:37
"And most of the other ships (other than Amarr) have large thermal and EM resistance in their armor. What this means is that the Amarr are screwed when against anything doing kinetic and explosive damage while using lasers."
The simple math showing otherwise is available for view in the other two balancing threads, i think there's no need to paste it in here, too... :/ (the damage amounts were calculated against Caldari battleship stats, i.e. one of those ships with high resistance in the armor)
CobraMac:
"You didnt state they were well suited, you stated they ARE TO BE FITTED implying that lasers must be fitted on that ship."
Well, since i happen to know what i meant, and your guess on what i was possibly implying is just that -- a guess... mayhaps my explanation of what i meant is closer to what i indeed meant... non?
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CobraMac
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Posted - 2003.11.12 19:34:00 -
[39]
Edited by: CobraMac on 12/11/2003 19:37:46
Quote:
Well, since i happen to know what i meant, and your guess on what i was possibly implying is just that -- a guess... mayhaps my explanation of what i meant is closer to what i indeed meant... non?
Mayhaps i rest my case ;)
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Kaylon Syi
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Posted - 2003.11.12 20:00:00 -
[40]
Quote:
Quote:
The last "em" should be "thermal", shouldn't it?  
Cut me some slack, hun. It's 2:17am and I'm low on caffeine 
Don't worry she is chopping everyones ideas and text up. Keep up the testing Xeno and don't worry about the overly analytical minds here.
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Kaylon Syi
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Posted - 2003.11.12 20:03:00 -
[41]
Quote:
And nevermind that pro ammo does exactly the same amount of damage as hybrid ammo
Now your really reaching for straws. Why don't you put some numbers up there to validate your comments 
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.11.12 20:14:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 12/11/2003 20:16:17
Quote:
Now your really reaching for straws. Why don't you put some numbers up there to validate your comments
*sigh*
You know, I'm now very tempted to say things like "read the three threads about balancing, the numbers are there 2-3 times" or "just compare them in the game if you don't believe me", but lets be nice and give you two examples:
highend ammo - EMP vs AM:
EMP: 20 EM, 16 Exp, 8 Kin -> 44 damage total
AM: 20 Kin, 24 Ther -> 44 damage total
lowend ammo - carb. lead vs iron:
carb. lead: 4 exp, 12 kin -> 16 damage total
iron: 8 kim, 8 ther -> 16 damage total
This is the damage before resistances, of cource. But those very greatly, the only effecient way to compare ammo damage is before res.
free speech not allowed here |
Yggdrassil
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Posted - 2003.11.12 22:33:00 -
[43]
Just a question on what is priorited when balancing...
Do you want to balance the "hunting" gear, or balance the "PVP" gear...
Got a feeling that Lasers are getting even worse for pvp... (referring to high power need, high cap need, easy to "defend" against damage with hardeners)
Now, I haven't been in the pvp "game", but... Seems to me like I'd better continue to stay away from it with these changes...
Good thing I got Projectile Guns as an alternative :)
Yggdrassil |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.11.12 23:03:00 -
[44]
PVP - any gun can be used for hunting. It isn't called npc "farming" without a cause - it's not much of a challange unless you hunt npc cruisers with frigs.
Lasers are premium for hunting, though, simply because of logistics. No ammo needed. Will perhaps change a little with reduced ammo sizes.
While in PVP people can win or loose because very slight advantages - because of this it's important that guns are balanced for PVP - otherwise everyone will sooner or later only use the gun(s) which have the best effeciency, making PVP repetative and calculable.
And this is exactly what's happening atm - in fleet battles we have tachs. In scirmishes we have ECM. That's it.
No offence meant, but unless you have experience in PVP you are not really in a position if those changes are good or bad.
free speech not allowed here |
xeno calligan
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Posted - 2003.11.13 05:04:00 -
[45]
Edited by: xeno calligan on 13/11/2003 05:11:43
TomB, you might want to clarify that "standard" freq. crystals is a new 8th (yellow ) crystal and thus different from the default built-in crystal. This was confirmed by BH Hammerhead since it's not on the market and fightclub hangers are inaccessible on chaos.
I was starting to get a bit confused about exactly how you intended us to get +60% range with a laser with the reordering of crystals while keeping the range mods comparable to those of charges
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Nervar
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Posted - 2003.11.13 19:17:00 -
[46]
TomB it would help if the nesasery patches was availebal, cant logg on and test can i
------------------------------------------------->
What I look forward to is continued immaturity followed by death.
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ga'ia
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Posted - 2003.11.13 19:55:00 -
[47]
Quote:
TomB it would help if the nesasery patches was availebal, cant logg on and test can i
They are, right here http://patch.eve-online.com/test-patches.html.
__________________________________________________________ |
Doppleganger
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Posted - 2003.11.13 22:35:00 -
[48]
Quote:
One thing that might tick laser users off: there's no "unload" option for weapons.
This hasn't been a problem so far because the "standard configuration" wasn't attractive, so hardly anyone used it. With the proposed changes it becomes important to be able to swap to the "standard configuration" for max range.
Either add a unload option or add a new standard crystal to the market.
Is there a new 'standard' crystal avail on chaos?
BTW there is a way to unload crystals from a lasers its just drag the crystal from the icon at the bottom of the screen to your cargo hold and bingo the laser is firing in standard mode with no crystal.
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TomB
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Posted - 2003.11.14 15:26:00 -
[49]
Update to crystals, read it
"Where is my hat?" |
ClawHammer III
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Posted - 2003.11.14 19:02:00 -
[50]
I like that the crystal order is back to the way that it was but Radio, Microwave and Infrared crystals have the same damage total now. Is that intentional?
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Slithereen
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Posted - 2003.11.17 07:50:00 -
[51]
I'm a big laser user but I'm for increasing the potency of ammo weapons (missile, hybrid, projectile).
Ammunition and boosters are the few expendibles in the game, and giving them some emphasis can help boost the economy for ammo producers.
_______________________________________________
"Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies,
"Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy.
"Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
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Bon3s
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Posted - 2003.11.17 11:57:00 -
[52]
Quote:
No offence meant, but unless you have experience in PVP you are not really in a position if those changes are good or bad.
Well if i train all my skills to energy weapons during all this months and build the equipment too, i have a right to speak, even if i don't do PvP.
We are talking about skillpoints losses here.
And i don't like it when changes are made to specs. all the time.
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TomB
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Posted - 2003.11.17 12:34:00 -
[53]
Quote:
I like that the crystal order is back to the way that it was but Radio, Microwave and Infrared crystals have the same damage total now. Is that intentional?
Yes.
"Where is my hat?" |
xeno calligan
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Posted - 2003.11.18 14:06:00 -
[54]
Edited by: xeno calligan on 18/11/2003 14:31:26
TomB, I don't mean to give you a hard time, but could you fill us in on the intent behind the crystal changes? I simply cannot understand the reasoning behind the changes.
Patch 1305 damage/range analysis
I'll be using the same damage model (maple, plain text) as in the thread that went up in flames, but with 1305 data. Please check the post if you need further details. The 1305 patch has a bug where you can't display info for ships, so ship skill bonuses are the same as on TQ.
Quick plot of the nominal damage from crystals:
Legend- blue = em
- red = th
- black = total
Below is a plot of DPS against range (in km) for a tachyon laser with different crystals.
It is quite clear that the standard crystal now is deprecated. With infrared you get more em damage and more range. There's no reason ever to use standard crystals (but perhaps they are to be phased out again?). Furthermore, the nominal damage output now has a large deviation from previous patches due to the roughly constant raw damage on the long range crystals.
Next is a plot of optimal nominal DPS for each of the "best" turrets, i.e. assuming that you always use the optimal munitions for the range. The plot does not take ship bonuses into account.
Legend- red = 1400mm arty
- green = 425mm rail
- blue = Tachyon
- black = Neutron Blaster Cannon
The plot below illustrates the optimal nominal DPS for each battleship using the largest of the turrets it gets ship bonuses for.
Legend- red = Tempest with 1400mm arty
- pink-ish = Typhoon with 1400mm arty
- green = Cardari with 425mm rail / Neutron Blaster Cannon
- blue = Armageddon with tachyon
- cyan = Apocalypse with tachyon (any ship but arma, really)
- black = Gallente with 425mm rails / Neutron Blaster Cannon
Frankly, the turrets were more ballanced before the latest crystal changes. The tachyon is now very attractive not only on close range (25km-ish), but at medium-long range (80km-ish) as well (even without any ship bonuses!). The 425mm rail is very powerful on a megatron, which is supposed to be a close range ship (iirc). Projectiles are still sniper kings.
With the booster charges, cap regeneration becomes much less important in PVP engagements, so I think perhaps the +5% cap recharge on the Apocalypse should be reevaluated.
Finally, the Cardari ship bonus still doesn't do anything to carve out a role for rails: dull damage and a range that is pale in comparison with minmatar ships with 1400mm cannons. The caldari ship bonus isn't exactly a great motivation to train ships skills. I think it's time to cut the losses and give caldari a bonus to lauchers instead which seems to be their true specialty.
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Retrax
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Posted - 2003.11.19 01:15:00 -
[55]
Nice Calligan. I agree... hybrids are a hassle even with caldari ships, and lasers are the pvp kings. I'm not sure the new changes will help to improve the situation. Can't wait to see if this turns out to be cool, or nerfy :p
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Caya
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Posted - 2003.11.23 10:02:00 -
[56]
Lasers PvP kings? i would like to hear why... no i realy dont see reason here...
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Athan
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Posted - 2003.11.26 00:30:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Athan on 26/11/2003 00:45:34
TomB, could you please cite the old and new values on all those stats, rather than the change. Citing just the change means we have to go look up the current value, and then apply the change and compare.
I had an old table, so updated it. The first figures are current, the ones after each / the proposed new. This is for Large crystals. Oh and I bet the formatting totally f's up.
Quote:
Type EM Thermal Range
Multifrequency 20/20 28/24 -40%/-50%
Gamma 16/16 24/24 -30%/-37.5%
XRay 16/16 20/20 -20%/-25%
Ultraviolet 16/16 16/16 -10%/-12.5%
Infrared 20/16 8/8 +20%/+20%
Microwave 24/20 4/4 +40%/+40%
Radio 32/24 0/0 +60%/+60%
thanks,
-Ath
--
http://big.wayland.dk/Lottery.asp - The BIG Lottery |
Conman
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Posted - 2003.11.30 12:10:00 -
[58]
Wondering why everyone feels a need to punish laser user simply because they do more damage to shields but have to compensate by basically having an insane amount of cap drain which means they wont be able to run thier shields or any other important meduim slot items. I have used all three weapon types and have found having cap to run your shields s more important then a little bit of extra damage.
I am drunken irish slave hahaha i live
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Ardor
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Posted - 2003.11.30 14:37:00 -
[59]
Lasers are the 'best' weapons ingame. They make (slightly) more damage and have better tracking. This advantage comes for a price: energy usage. Projectil and missile users can use their energy for defence. If you want balance you have to subtract the better defence possibilities of projectil/missile users from the damage of energy weapons (laser/hybrid).
I have controlled burst 4, energy system op and energy management both at 5, and amarr battleship at 4. One Tachyon uses 8.466 energy/second on an Apocalypse. 4 Tachyons use 33.86e/sec. 1 Hardener needs 2e/sec. Most people use 2 hardeners (em/thermal). A large shield booster uses 40e/sec. A medium shield booster uses 20e/sec. Do some math...
Currently projectil have only slightly less DoT. Missiles do make more damage then a laser (if all missiles hit). But projectil and missile users have a lot of energy to boost their shield defence while laser users need their energy to power their weapons. All battleships no matter what race do have about the same recharge rate/sec.
The low slot advantage on Amarr ships is not an advantage. We have to sacrifice low slots for our lasers to be able to use them. I need 4 cap rechargers in my low slots to power 7 dual heavy pulse (best large laser in my opinion because of the low cap usage) and still run out of cap if i use them nonstop without any other module activated. I don't see a low slot advantage but i see a big medium slot disadvantage for amarr ship/laser users.
With 3 or 4 medium slots (Armageddon/Apocalypse) it's hard to use shield defence. I want at least 1 warp scrambler for a certain reason. There is no place for a shield boost amplifier on amarr ships. Caldari can run 3 hardeners, 1 amplifier, 1 XL booster and 1 warpscrambler if they use cap rechargers. And their missiles do about the same damage as lasers (if not even more because of free damage choice). Minmatar can almost do the same. Lasers are by far the worst weapons ingame followed by hybrid weapons.
The new energy charges will change a lot. They will be a must for laser users in PvP at the cost of another medium slot. If an med slot cap booster battery (i dont remember the name, the thing which needs this cap charges) and a warp scrambler are a must to be able to destroy an enemy ship then i have 1 free med slot on an Armageddon or 2 free med slots on an Apocalypse. No way for shield defence so i have to go for armor defence. Hmmm, i can't fit the hull repairer on an Armageddon because i still want this charges thingy and 1 warp scrambler. An Armor repairer is more important and a lot more effective then a hull repairer.
Armor defence is less effective then shield defence. 2* 50% shield hardeners give 50 emp / 60 explosive / 40 kinetic / 60 thermal resistance. Two 32,5% armor platings give 60 / 45 / 50 / 35. And i do need 2 medium slots to keep my armor up: hull and armor repairer. The 1600er plating is a nice thing for everyone.
Those energy charges come with a big price. They need another medium slot. And they need a lot of cargo. You can't competete 1:1 Pvp without them but you can't hunt NPC with them.
So i say lasers are the worst weapons. But as long as battles are only a gank fest over a short time where many pilots from one side shoot one single pilot from the other side to kill him within seconds the weapon with the most damage output in a short time will stay the weapon of choice for everyone. And this weapon still is the laser. I really don't like this kind of combat.
As an amarr roleplayer who uses exclusivly amarrian ships and lasers and who is looking for balanced 1:1 encounters i am frustrated with the current balance on TQ and the coming changes will make it worse (crystal nerf).
But i am not only here for critic. I have a few ideas for discussion:
1.) Don't introduce the big energy charges (although they would be very handy for laser users). I fear their impact on balance will be to important and they will change the game to much. They will be a must for everyone at the price of an medium slot.
1b.) If you introduce them, please make the size of the charges very small so laser users can stay the same time in deep space if he uses them as an ammo user can be in space (NPC hunting).
2.) Give projectil/hybrid/missile/charges users a big ammo bay and an auto-reload option. There is really no need for this micro management penalty. It's only a fun killer and have no impact on PvP encounters.
3.) Make armor defence as strong as shield defence. I would gladly pay 2 energy/sec for 50% armor platings.
4.) Introduce repairers which can repair hull and armor.
5.) Introduce repair drones.
6.) If all weapons (missiles/turrets) nearly do the same damage as it is now reduce the energy drain on hybrid/lasers by at least 70% (seventy percent, i am serious).
7.) 2 times HP overall for battleships, 3 times HP overall for cruisers and 4 times HP overall for fregates will at least give you the chance
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Ardor
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Posted - 2003.11.30 14:46:00 -
[60]
Damn, that was long. Here is the rest:
6.) 2 times HP overall for battleships, 3 times HP overall for cruisers and 4 times HP overall for fregates will at least give you the chance to say goodbye to your ship if you are the unlucky one who is attacked by several other players in a fleet battle. In 1:1 encounters it will make a combat a long lasting fight to call others for help which is fine for me.
7.) Don't make ships disappear if a user logs out and logs in with an alt. Don't make ships disappear at all while they are in a PvP fight. For PvE the 2 minutes are fine.
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