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TomB	Posted - 2003.11.11 14:33:00 - [1] Upcoming changes to charges because of imbalance between crystals and ammo and hybrid ammo. I'm truly sorry that this has slipped past us for such a long time and I've never had this brought up as an issue before. This tuning will be very basic to begin with for players on the test server to get a feel for, further tuning will happen on turrets and most likely on charges as well. Do not flame your hearts out , rather test this on the test server and give your feedback here. This won't go live until this has been well tested and tuned. Crystals Infrared EM Damage decreased by 20% Microwave EM Damage decreased by 16.7% Radio EM Damage decreased by 25% Ultraviolet Optimal Range bonus/penality from 0.9 to 0.875 Xray Optimal Range bonus/penality from 0.8 to 0.75 Gamma Optimal Range bonus/penality from 0.7 to 0.625 Multifrequency Optimal Range bonus/penality from 0.6 to 0.5 Thermal Damage decreased by 14.3% Ammo Carbonized Lead Optimal Range bonus/penality from 1.3 to 1.6 Nuclear Optimal Range bonus/penality from 1.2 to 1.4 Photon Optimal Range bonus/penality from 1.1 to 1.2 Hybrid Ammo Iron Optimal Range bonus/penality from 1.3 to 1.6 Tungsten Optimal Range bonus/penality from 1.2 to 1.4 Iridium Optimal Range bonus/penality from 1.1 to 1.2 UPDATE: Changes to crystals, ranges brought to same old form, damage reduced instead "Where is my hat?"
Stepping Razor	Posted - 2003.11.11 14:42:00 - [2] Would you mind fixing the ammo size too TomB? L Hybrid ammo does 2X the damage of M ammo, but takes up 5X the space?. Razor Originally by: Bonaventure Phaidon CCP is the best at at least three things: 1. Really, really fun gameplay 2. Good forum presence 3. Inventing new and exciting ways to bring about in-game catacly
Jarjar	Posted - 2003.11.11 14:43:00 - [3] Before trying it out: Wohoo! Now lets see if hybrids are the long range weapons again.
TomB	Posted - 2003.11.11 14:46:00 - [4] Quote: Would you mind fixing the ammo size too TomB? L Hybrid ammo does 2X the damage of M ammo, but takes up 5X the space?. I will reduce them soon my friend, focusing on this first. "Where is my hat?"
ClawHammer III	Posted - 2003.11.11 15:26:00 - [5] Edited by: ClawHammer III on 11/11/2003 15:27:12 The changes look good... just one minor nitpick. Longer wavelengths tend to travel farther then shorter wavelengths so the new crystal order is a bit confusing to me. I assume you changed to range bonuses to reflect thier total damage which is probably a good thing.
Damaclease	Posted - 2003.11.11 15:31:00 - [6] Ahhh my lovely Laser they have being threatened by the nerf bat Pls nooooo
Tombfiller	Posted - 2003.11.11 15:41:00 - [7] Quote: Gamma Optimal Range bonus/penality from 0.7 to 6.25 from 0.7 to 6.25 Typo for 0.625 ? ##--------------------------## # Is this the post button ? # ##--------------------------##
xeno calligan	Posted - 2003.11.11 15:42:00 - [8] Edited by: xeno calligan on 11/11/2003 17:10:18 Things are shaping up nicely -- the boost from +30% to +60% is definitely needed to make the long range charges attractive. I'm just a bit confused about the changes to std/infrared/micro/radio crystals; Why change the order? (and I hope the range on gamma crystals is a typo ) Grabbing values from TQ (chaos patches are inaccessible atm ): Standard: +60.0% range, 12em, 12th = 24 Infrared: +40.0% range, 20em, 8th = 28 Microwave: +20.0% range, 24em, 4th = 28 Radio: + 0.0% range, 32em, 0th = 32 Ultraviolet: -12.5% range, 16em, 16th = 32 Xray: -25.0% range, 16em, 20th = 36 Gamma: -37.5% range, 16em, 24th = 40 Multifreq: -50.0% range, 20em, 24th = 44 Iron: +60.0% range, 8ki, 8th = 16 Tungsten: +40.0% range, 12ki, 8th = 20 Iridium: +20.0% range, 12ki, 12th = 24 Lead: + 0.0% range, 16ki, 12th = 28 Thorium: -12.5% range, 16ki, 16th = 32 Uranium: -25.0% range, 20ki, 16th = 36 Plutonium: -37.5% range, 20ki, 20th = 40 Antimatter: -50.0% range, 24ki, 20th = 44 Everything looks ok until we get to neutral and long range crystals. The default range damage for lasers (radio) is 32 but only 28 for lead charges. This gets gradually worse, ending in a 50% damage advantage to lasers. Lasers can now hit with a 50/50 distribution to em and th damages at extreme ranges as opposed to em only like before. But lasers still retain the option of dishing out pure em damage. If rails are supposed to be sniper weapons, this must change. Possibly by swapping the total damage outputs, so hybrids get a 50% advantage over lasers and not the other way around -- thus encourraging rail users to use long range charges even more. Edit: radio=em
Nareau	Posted - 2003.11.11 15:51:00 - [9] It had to happen sometime soon.. its not too bad. Hopefully I can get to testing this soon.
Teeth	Posted - 2003.11.11 16:00:00 - [10] I must say these don't look too bad as a first pass. It'd be nice if they were ordered according to wavelength, but it's nice to have some faith restored in the dev's balancing abilities.

xeno calligan	Posted - 2003.11.11 16:13:00 - [11] One thing that might tick laser users off: there's no "unload" option for weapons. This hasn't been a problem so far because the "standard configuration" wasn't attractive, so hardly anyone used it. With the proposed changes it becomes important to be able to swap to the "standard configuration" for max range. Either add a unload option or add a new standard crystal to the market.
Ana Khouri	Posted - 2003.11.11 16:31:00 - [12] @xeno: Think about what you want: Lasers doing a mix of em and thermal damage (about which you complain) or lasers doing only one damage type, em (about which you complain) And radios have always done EM only, not thermal. ----------- Generally: - The old order of sorting laser ranges by wavelength is no gone. It was only pseudoscience (real lasers won't work this way in space), ok, but it's better than no science at all - the current order hasn't even an attempt of being logical. So: Back to the old order, but with modified damages, for example Radio reduced to 24 EM, standart enhanced to 16 Ther, 16 EM and so on. - Most Crystals still do more damage than hybrid/pro ammo. Either reduce the crystals to the ammo stats or enhance the ammos to the crystals. I would rather do the latter, since lowlevel ammos are not very often used ATM, enhancing them could change than. As added bonus there won't be as much whining from laser users. free speech not allowed here
Fritz Ionar	Posted - 2003.11.11 16:34:00 - [13] Could you fix the info window for depleated uranim ammo while your at it, it doesn't state the range penalty. First I thought depleated uranium didn't have a range penalty, but when I put it in my guns and show info on the guns it is evident that it does have a range penalty just like every other ammo. ------------------------------------------ The services YOU need, WE provide!
James Hawkings	Posted - 2003.11.11 16:42:00 - [14] cheers to tomb for trying to help balance weapons. i'll try to get on teh test server to help work with the new changes and get info back to you. one question, on the test server i've heard of the corp fight club where you can pull what ever you want from the hangers and work with it, how and where can i join this corp on the test server? ~Built Hauler Tough~ ~Dazed and Confused Currently~
TomB	Posted - 2003.11.11 16:42:00 - [15] Quote: Could you fix the info window for depleated uranim ammo while your at it, it doesn't state the range penalty. First I thought depleated uranium didn't have a range penalty, but when I put it in my guns and show info on the guns it is evident that it does have a range penalty just like every other ammo. Depleted Uranium doesn't have a range bonus or penality, the multiplier is 1.0 and there for doesn't get displayed in the UI because it doesn't affect the charge. Do more people see range penality/bonus for using Depleted Uranium?? "Where is my hat?"
xeno calligan	Posted - 2003.11.11 17:08:00 - [16] Edited by: xeno calligan on 11/11/2003 17:18:13 Quote: @xeno: Think about what you want: Lasers doing a mix of em and thermal damage (about which you complain) or lasers doing only one damage type, em (about which you complain) And radios have always done EM only, not thermal. Hehe, actually it wasn't as much a complaint as a note. The fact is that by reordering by damage, the distribution between em and th does not slide towards pure em. This is imo an improvement for lasers since you're no longer forced to do em damage only at extreme ranges and you can still configure for pure em (but at shorter ranges, obviously). My main complaint is that the damage output of lasers is 50% higher than for hybrids using long-range munitions, eventhough rails are supposed to be sniper weapons. And yes, the radio=em was a beef. I'm caldari and use rails and th=shield-eater-damage-type for rails Edit: em->th
Ana Khouri	Posted - 2003.11.11 17:15:00 - [17] The last "em" should be "thermal", shouldn't it? free speech not allowed here
xeno calligan	Posted - 2003.11.11 17:20:00 - [18] Quote: The last "em" should be "thermal", shouldn't it? Cut me some slack, hun. It's 2:17am and I'm low on caffeine
Conman	Posted - 2003.11.11 18:45:00 - [19] Wondering why hyrbrid have to do an equal amount of damage when compared to lasers? Since laser already have a massive drawback because they drain a huge amount of cap. I still think that hybrids need a boost but would prefer if laser stayed untouched since most people have based there skill training on a particluar type of weapon. I was also wondering what all the other laser and hybrid user think about this. I am drunken irish slave hahaha i live
Juan Andalusian	Posted - 2003.11.11 19:14:00 - [20] Quote: Wondering why hyrbrid have to do an equal amount of damage when compared to lasers? Since laser already have a massive drawback because they drain a huge amount of cap. I still think that hybrids need a boost but would prefer if laser stayed untouched since most people have based there skill training on a particluar type of weapon. I was also wondering what all the other laser and hybrid user think about this. All is see is a very small damage adjustment to Multi F crystals so far. Hybrids are only getting tracking and some minor optimal boosts. Pain is meant to be felt

Raven DeBlade	Posted - 2003.11.11 20:14:00 - [21] Quote: Wondering why hyrbrid have to do an equal amount of damage when compared to lasers? Since laser already have a massive drawback because they drain a huge amount of cap. I still think that hybrids need a boost but would prefer if laser stayed untouched since most people have based there skill training on a particluar type of weapon. I was also wondering what all the other laser and hybrid user think about this. Maybe because Hybrids use ammo AND cap... so why should hybrids be the worst weapons? "To hunt pirates you need time and patience, because even monkeys fall from the trees" "Any statements made above this line are my persona"
Ana Khouri	Posted - 2003.11.11 20:28:00 - [22] And nevermind that pro ammo does exactly the same amount of damage as hybrid ammo - crystals are stronger than both ammo types. And why should they be equal to the ammos? They need a lot cap, but they have the best tracking and the best damage/time of all weapons - even after the balancing of the crystals. free speech not allowed here
Karif	Posted - 2003.11.11 20:45:00 - [23] Edited by: Karif on 11/11/2003 20:52:25 The unpopular opinion : All numbers are for large charges, crystals or rounds. Reduce accordingly to M and S charges. Crystals Multi - Thermal Damage: 44 EM Damage: 0 Range Modifier: 0.90 Gamma - Thermal Damage: 36 EM Damage: 8 Range Modifier: 0.95 Xray - Thermal Damage: 28 EM Damage: 16 Range Modifier: 0.00 Ultraviolet - Thermal Damage: 24 EM Damage: 20 Range Modifier: 1.10 Standard - Thermal Damage: 20 EM Damage: 24 Range Modifier: 1.10 Infrared - Thermal Damage: 16 EM Damage: 28 Range Modifier: 1.00 Microwave - Thermal Damage: 8 EM Damage: 36 Range Modifier: 0.95 Radio - Thermal Damage: 0 EM Damage: 44 Range Modifier: 0.90 Intended effect: Lazy setups will use the slighly long range Standard/UV lenses and do a fairly even split of damage (EM/Thermal). Not the "best", but a good choice for standard setups. Specifying the damage type by going MF or RF results in a reduced range, but increased damage depending on the target's status (RF/EM vs unhardened shields, MF/TH vs armor). The range penalty is in place due to the ease of lense-swapping. Range effects are minimal, putting the maximum range of the longest range set ups into 50-60km. Charges Antimatter - Thermal: 44 Kinetic: 0 Range Modifier: 1.15 Plutonium - Thermal: 36 Kinetic: 8 Range Modifier: 1.10 Uranium - Thermal: 28 Kinetic: 16 Range Modifier: 1.00 Iridium - Thermal: 24 Kinetic: 20 Range Modifier: 0.85 Thorium - Thermal: 20 Kinetic: 24 Range Modifier: 0.85 Lead - Thermal: 16 Kinetic: 28 Range Modifier: 1.00 Tungsten - Thermal: 8 Kinetic: 36 Range Modifier: 1.10 Iron - Thermal: 0 Kinetic: 44 Range Modifier: 1.15 Intended Effect: The opposite of frequency lenses - the lazy setup will rely on the shorter range split damage thorium/iridium ammunition types. Again, a decent standard setup. Using specific damage types nets the user a slight bonus to range. Those who what to tailor their damage types get a bonus. Why? Ammunition takes up much more room than lenses, and railguns are intended to have the longest ranges. The range bonus/penalties have a minimal impact on Hybrid Blasters. Ammunition becomes a choice of damage type spread. Range effects put the effective range on 425mm on a Caldari ship at around 70-80km. Projectile Rounds Short Range Rounds: 0.75 Range Modifier EMP - EM Damage: 32 Thermal Damage: 12 Phased Plasma - Thermal Damage: 32 Kinetic Damage: 12 Fusion - Explosive Damage: 32 Kinetic Damage: 12 Titanium Sabot - Kinetic Damage: 32 Explosive Damage: 12 Long Range Rounds: 1.15 Range Modifier Photon - EM Damage: 16 Thermal Damage: 8 Depleted Uranium - Thermal Damage: 16 Kinetic Damage: 6 Nuclear - Explosive Damage: 16 Kinetic Damage: 6 Carbon Lead - Kinetic Damage: 16 Explosive Damage: 6 Intended Effect: The choice of damage types, in "short" and "long" range variants. Each has an advantage. Long range ammo in 1400mm Howitzers can reach out into the 70-75km range by relying on falloff and a 50% damage reduction. The short range ammo can almost match the damage output of Pulse/Blasters, but this is where the slower tracking of projectiles becomes a mitigating factor. As always, the pilot used for breaking the numbers down was 5 Gunnery/3 all other Weapon Skills and no modules or battleship effects. The latter were checked to ensure that things did not extrapolate badly (especially in the case of the Tempest) - and they did not. A heavily skilled Tempest pilot using projectiles can almost match a similar skilled pilot in Amarr, Gallente or Caldari battleships. What would be the defining effect would be the skill of the player - as it should be... =============================== Deception + Information + Skill
Fritz Ionar	Posted - 2003.11.11 21:23:00 - [24] Quote: Quote: Could you fix the info window for depleated uranim ammo while your at it, it doesn't state the range penalty. First I thought depleated uranium didn't have a range penalty, but when I put it in my guns and show info on the guns it is evident that it does have a range penalty just like every other ammo. Depleted Uranium doesn't have a range bonus or penality, the multiplier is 1.0 and there for doesn't get displayed in the UI because it doesn't affect the charge. Do more people see range penality/bonus for using Depleted Uranium?? My bad I just now realised that some ammo have a range BONUS, I thought they all had penaltys. So what happend was I fited some ammo with a BONUS and then changed to Depl. uranium and saw the range drop, since I thought the ammo I had before had a range PENALTY I figured the depl. uranium had an even bigger penalty. Oh boy, do I have some serious ammo reavaluation to do now... range BONUS, doh! Sorry about that Mr. TomB, I'll be sure to investigate a bit harder before I open my moth next time ------------------------------------------ The services YOU need, WE provide!
Tekla	Posted - 2003.11.11 21:50:00 - [25] ...must...resist...flaming... Just remember that lasers cost far more than the others in terms of cap usage and fitting requirements, mmkay?
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.11.11 22:12:00 - [26] Edited by: j0sephine on 11/11/2003 22:14:40 "Just remember that lasers cost far more than the others in terms of cap usage and fitting requirements, mmkay? " ... And by default they are to be installed on the Amarr ships which has the largest capacitor, largest powergrid and bonus to capacitor recharge rate and/or energy turret cap usage. These features pretty much cancel the higher requirements of lasers, while still giving one the bonus of higher damage rate, non?..
Bushido	Posted - 2003.11.12 03:19:00 - [27] PLZZZZZZ shortcuts for ammo recharge example: shift-# and the shortcuts should be saved on cache naturally. Now you have to reassign them every time you launch the client. Bushido
Mynobe Soletae	Posted - 2003.11.12 05:18:00 - [28] I didn't buy BP's for all ammo types, and all lasers. I just bought what I felt I may need, or may be desirable: a long range and a short range/dmg bp for each type. Now Radio won't be the long range option anymore. Will you offer an option to swap out BP's? ME researched? Or do we have to shell out more millions?
CobraMac	Posted - 2003.11.12 07:27:00 - [29] Quote: Edited by: j0sephine on 11/11/2003 22:14:40 "Just remember that lasers cost far more than the others in terms of cap usage and fitting requirements, mmkay? " ... And by default they are to be installed on the Amarr ships which has the largest capacitor, largest powergrid and bonus to capacitor recharge rate and/or energy turret cap usage. These features pretty much cancel the higher requirements of lasers, while still giving one the bonus of higher damage rate, non?.. lol, so now you decide who can use lasers based on your fantacy of balance, yeah..right ;)
Juan Andalusian	Posted - 2003.11.12 08:29:00 - [30] Quote: Quote: Edited by: j0sephine on 11/11/2003 22:14:40 "Just remember that lasers cost far more than the others in terms of cap usage and fitting requirements, mmkay? " ... And by default they are to be installed on the Amarr ships which has the largest capacitor, largest powergrid and bonus to capacitor recharge rate and/or energy turret cap usage. These features pretty much cancel the higher requirements of lasers, while still giving one the bonus of higher damage rate, non?.. lol, so now you decide who can use lasers based on your fantacy of balance, yeah..right ;) I think J0 tried to be polite and explain what i ll tell you bluntly. Go ahead and load Tachyons and Megabeams on your Dominix, Scorpion and Megathron etc but don't come whining when you realise that you have a completely **y loadout. She isn't dictating who should use laser and on which ships. She just offered you the reasoning behind the fitting/usage requirements of lasers. You are free to fit lasers on any ship and look like a complete monkey. Fantasy of balance? what's that supposed to mean? What fantasy... she stated simple facts: Tachyon on a Megathron = Not so Viable. Tachyon on an Apoc = Proper use of Turret. You've been ranting on 2 threads without a single argument and for no reason at all. Go read what changes are being discussed... try to understand them... and then voice you concerns presenting arguments. Pain is meant to be felt**

j0sephine	Posted - 2003.11.12 08:34:00 - [31] "lol, so now you decide who can use lasers based on your fantacy of balance, yeah..right ;)" ... How exactly pointing out some class of ships is well suited for some type of weapon equals telling who can use those weapons? For what's worth, there seems to be amazing number of people who think your precious lasers are the best weapon to use even on ships which were not designed to use them... so give me a break with your 'fantacy of balance' how higher requirements even it all out so there's no need to change anything -- if things were indeed balanced, you would expect to see all types of weapons used in comparable numbers. If the hybrids sucked but lasers weren't the strongest, you would at least expect to see comparable numbers of people using lasers and projectiles. Yet strangely enough, neither appears to be the case.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.11.12 09:59:00 - [32] The fact I use lasers on my Scorpion and people use lasers on their Megathron is not indicative of balance. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Ranx Xerox	Posted - 2003.11.12 15:35:00 - [33] Hi pal, sorry but a fighter beginner question : I see people making often 800 - 1000 damage with a 1400 MM proj when the strongest Hybrid make 250 - 300 (with similars skills). It's about 200 - 300 % damage change so when i see that specs on hybrids will just move them about 110 - 120 % i hope i make a big error somewhere in number :)
Sinista	Posted - 2003.11.12 16:59:00 - [34] Just a quick question about Standard Crystals. Has anyone actually seen one outside of the Chaos test ammo hangers? I haven't seen these crystals anywhere else. Is this an oversight or are they just hidden in a weird place?
CobraMac	Posted - 2003.11.12 17:49:00 - [35] Quote: ... How exactly pointing out some class of ships is well suited for some type of weapon equals telling who can use those weapons? You didnt state they were well suited, you stated they ARE TO BE FITTED implying that lasers must be fitted on that ship. Quote: For what's worth, there seems to be amazing number of people who think your precious lasers are the best weapon to use even on ships which were not designed to use them... so give me a break with your 'fantacy of balance' how higher requirements even it all out so there's no need to change anything -- if things were indeed balanced, you would expect to see all types of weapons used in comparable numbers. If the hybrids sucked but lasers weren't the strongest, you would at least expect to see comparable numbers of people using lasers and projectiles. Yet strangely enough, neither appears to be the case. Did i mentined in any of my posts that things were balanced ? i simply stated that large hybrids and especially rails were what needed a slight boost and that by doing an across the board nerf/boost was perhaps not required. Forgive me for asking this, but are you a member of the development team ? do you have any numbers to substantiate how many players use what type of weapons or is this another one of your fantasy facts ?
CobraMac	Posted - 2003.11.12 17:57:00 - [36] Quote: Fantasy of balance? what's that supposed to mean? What fantasy... she stated simple facts: Facts, lol, her/his opinion more like it Quote: You've been ranting on 2 threads without a single argument and for no reason at all. Go read what changes are being discussed... try to understand them... and then voice you concerns presenting arguments. Let me put it to you bluntly, go re-read my posts and see past your blinkers and u will see plenty of arguments/suggestions son.
Crewman 6	Posted - 2003.11.12 18:17:00 - [37] Quote: Edited by: j0sephine on 11/11/2003 22:14:40 "Just remember that lasers cost far more than the others in terms of cap usage and fitting requirements, mmkay? " ... And by default they are to be installed on the Amarr ships which has the largest capacitor, largest powergrid and bonus to capacitor recharge rate and/or energy turret cap usage. These features pretty much cancel the higher requirements of lasers, while still giving one the bonus of higher damage rate, non?.. And most of the other ships (other than Amarr) have large thermal and EM resistance in their armor. What this means is that the Amarr are screwed when against anything doing kinetic and explosive damage while using lasers. Maybe lasers aren't all they are *****ed up to be --------------------------------------------- I'm not prejudiced... I hate everyone. Albert Camus once observed, "Integrity has no need of rules." The converse is also true: The degree of integrity is inversely proportional to the number and complexities of rules and bureaucracy.
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.11.12 18:43:00 - [38] Edited by: j0sephine on 12/11/2003 19:02:37 "And most of the other ships (other than Amarr) have large thermal and EM resistance in their armor. What this means is that the Amarr are screwed when against anything doing kinetic and explosive damage while using lasers." The simple math showing otherwise is available for view in the other two balancing threads, i think there's no need to paste it in here, too... :/ (the damage amounts were calculated against Caldari battleship stats, i.e. one of those ships with high resistance in the armor) CobraMac: "You didnt state they were well suited, you stated they ARE TO BE FITTED implying that lasers must be fitted on that ship." Well, since i happen to know what i meant, and your guess on what i was possibly implying is just that -- a guess... mayhaps my explanation of what i meant is closer to what i indeed meant... non?
CobraMac	Posted - 2003.11.12 19:34:00 - [39] Edited by: CobraMac on 12/11/2003 19:37:46 Quote: Well, since i happen to know what i meant, and your guess on what i was possibly implying is just that -- a guess... mayhaps my explanation of what i meant is closer to what i indeed meant... non? Mayhaps i rest my case ;)
Kaylon Syi	Posted - 2003.11.12 20:00:00 - [40] Quote: Quote: The last "em" should be "thermal", shouldn't it? Cut me some slack, hun. It's 2:17am and I'm low on caffeine Don't worry she is chopping everyones ideas and text up. Keep up the testing Xeno and don't worry about the overly analytical minds here.

Kaylon Syi	Posted - 2003.11.12 20:03:00 - [41] Quote: And nevermind that pro ammo does exactly the same amount of damage as hybrid ammo Now your really reaching for straws. Why don't you put some numbers up there to validate your comments
Ana Khouri	Posted - 2003.11.12 20:14:00 - [42] Edited by: Ana Khouri on 12/11/2003 20:16:17 Quote: Now your really reaching for straws. Why don't you put some numbers up there to validate your comments sigh You know, I'm now very tempted to say things like "read the three threads about balancing, the numbers are there 2-3 times" or "just compare them in the game if you don't believe me", but lets be nice and give you two examples: highend ammo - EMP vs AM: EMP: 20 EM, 16 Exp, 8 Kin -> 44 damage total AM: 20 Kin, 24 Ther -> 44 damage total lowend ammo - carb. lead vs iron: carb. lead: 4 exp, 12 kin -> 16 damage total iron: 8 kim, 8 ther -> 16 damage total This is the damage before resistances, of cource. But those very greatly, the only effecient way to compare ammo damage is before res. free speech not allowed here
Yggdrassil	Posted - 2003.11.12 22:33:00 - [43] Just a question on what is priorited when balancing... Do you want to balance the "hunting" gear, or balance the "PVP" gear... Got a feeling that Lasers are getting even worse for pvp... (referring to high power need, high cap need, easy to "defend" against damage with hardeners) Now, I haven't been in the pvp "game", but... Seems to me like I'd better continue to stay away from it with these changes... Good thing I got Projectile Guns as an alternative :) Yggdrassil
Ana Khouri	Posted - 2003.11.12 23:03:00 - [44] PVP - any gun can be used for hunting. It isn't called npc "farming" without a cause - it's not much of a challange unless you hunt npc cruisers with frigs. Lasers are premium for hunting, though, simply because of logistics. No ammo needed. Will perhaps change a little with reduced ammo sizes. While in PVP people can win or loose because very slight advantages - because of this it's important that guns are balanced for PVP - otherwise everyone will sooner or later only use the gun(s) which have the best effeciency, making PVP repetative and calculable. And this is exactly what's happening atm - in fleet battles we have tachs. In scirmishes we have ECM. That's it. No offence meant, but unless you have experience in PVP you are not really in a position if those changes are good or bad. free speech not allowed here
xeno calligan	Posted - 2003.11.13 05:04:00 - [45] Edited by: xeno calligan on 13/11/2003 05:11:43 TomB, you might want to clarify that "standard" freq. crystals is a new 8th (yellow ) crystal and thus different from the default built-in crystal. This was confirmed by BH Hammerhead since it's not on the market and fightclub hangers are inaccessible on chaos. I was starting to get a bit confused about exactly how you intended us to get +60% range with a laser with the reordering of crystals while keeping the range mods comparable to those of charges
Nervar	Posted - 2003.11.13 19:17:00 - [46] TomB it would help if the nesasery patches was availebal, cant logg on and test can i -------------------------------------------------> What I look forward to is continued immaturity followed by death.
ga'ia	Posted - 2003.11.13 19:55:00 - [47] Quote: TomB it would help if the nesasery patches was availebal, cant logg on and test can i They are, right here http://patch.eve-online.com/test-patches.html. __________________________________________________________
Doppleganger	Posted - 2003.11.13 22:35:00 - [48] Quote: One thing that might tick laser users off: there's no "unload" option for weapons. This hasn't been a problem so far because the "standard configuration" wasn't attractive, so hardly anyone used it. With the proposed changes it becomes important to be able to swap to the "standard configuration" for max range. Either add a unload option or add a new standard crystal to the market. Is there a new 'standard' crystal avail on chaos? BTW there is a way to unload crystals from a lasers its just drag the crystal from the icon at the bottom of the screen to your cargo hold and bingo the laser is firing in standard mode with no crystal.
TomB	Posted - 2003.11.14 15:26:00 - [49] Update to crystals, read it "Where is my hat?"
ClawHammer III	Posted - 2003.11.14 19:02:00 - [50] I like that the crystal order is back to the way that it was but Radio, Microwave and Infrared crystals have the same damage total now. Is that intentional?

Slithereen	Posted - 2003.11.17 07:50:00 - [51] I'm a big laser user but I'm for increasing the potency of ammo weapons (missile, hybrid, projectile). Ammunition and boosters are the few expendibles in the game, and giving them some emphasis can help boost the economy for ammo producers. _______________________________________________ "Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies, "Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy. "Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
Bon3s	Posted - 2003.11.17 11:57:00 - [52] Quote: No offence meant, but unless you have experience in PVP you are not really in a position if those changes are good or bad. Well if i train all my skills to energy weapons during all this months and build the equipment too, i have a right to speak, even if i don't do PvP. We are talking about skillpoints losses here. And i don't like it when changes are made to specs. all the time.
TomB	Posted - 2003.11.17 12:34:00 - [53] Quote: I like that the crystal order is back to the way that it was but Radio, Microwave and Infrared crystals have the same damage total now. Is that intentional? Yes. "Where is my hat?"
xeno calligan	Posted - 2003.11.18 14:06:00 - [54] Edited by: xeno calligan on 18/11/2003 14:31:26 TomB, I don't mean to give you a hard time, but could you fill us in on the intent behind the crystal changes? I simply cannot understand the reasoning behind the changes. Patch 1305 damage/range analysis I'll be using the same damage model (maple, plain text) as in the thread that went up in flames, but with 1305 data. Please check the post if you need further details. The 1305 patch has a bug where you can't display info for ships, so ship skill bonuses are the same as on TQ. Quick plot of the nominal damage from crystals: Legend blue = em red = th black = total Below is a plot of DPS against range (in km) for a tachyon laser with different crystals. It is quite clear that the standard crystal now is deprecated. With infrared you get more em damage and more range. There's no reason ever to use standard crystals (but perhaps they are to be phased out again?). Furthermore, the nominal damage output now has a large deviation from previous patches due to the roughly constant raw damage on the long range crystals. Next is a plot of optimal nominal DPS for each of the "best" turrets, i.e. assuming that you always use the optimal munitions for the range. The plot does not take ship bonuses into account. Legend red = 1400mm arty green = 425mm rail blue = Tachyon black = Neutron Blaster Cannon The plot below illustrates the optimal nominal DPS for each battleship using the largest of the turrets it gets ship bonuses for. Legend red = Tempest with 1400mm arty pink-ish = Typhoon with 1400mm arty green = Cardari with 425mm rail / Neutron Blaster Cannon blue = Armageddon with tachyon cyan = Apocalypse with tachyon (any ship but arma, really) black = Gallente with 425mm rails / Neutron Blaster Cannon Frankly, the turrets were more ballanced before the latest crystal changes. The tachyon is now very attractive not only on close range (25km-ish), but at medium-long range (80km-ish) as well (even without any ship bonuses!). The 425mm rail is very powerful on a megatron, which is supposed to be a close range ship (iirc). Projectiles are still sniper kings. With the booster charges, cap regeneration becomes much less important in PVP engagements, so I think perhaps the +5% cap recharge on the Apocalypse should be reevaluated. Finally, the Cardari ship bonus still doesn't do anything to carve out a role for rails: dull damage and a range that is pale in comparison with minmatar ships with 1400mm cannons. The caldari ship bonus isn't exactly a great motivation to train ships skills. I think it's time to cut the losses and give caldari a bonus to lauchers instead which seems to be their true specialty.
Retrax	Posted - 2003.11.19 01:15:00 - [55] Nice Calligan. I agree... hybrids are a hassle even with caldari ships, and lasers are the pvp kings. I'm not sure the new changes will help to improve the situation. Can't wait to see if this turns out to be cool, or nerfy :p
Caya	Posted - 2003.11.23 10:02:00 - [56] Lasers PvP kings? i would like to hear why... no i realy dont see reason here...
Athan	Posted - 2003.11.26 00:30:00 - [57] Edited by: Athan on 26/11/2003 00:45:34 TomB, could you please cite the old and new values on all those stats, rather than the change. Citing just the change means we have to go look up the current value, and then apply the change and compare. I had an old table, so updated it. The first figures are current, the ones after each / the proposed new. This is for Large crystals. Oh and I bet the formatting totally f's up. Quote: Type EM Thermal Range Multifrequency 20/20 28/24 -40%/-50% Gamma 16/16 24/24 -30%/-37.5% XRay 16/16 20/20 -20%/-25% Ultraviolet 16/16 16/16 -10%/-12.5% Infrared 20/16 8/8 +20%/+20% Microwave 24/20 4/4 +40%/+40% Radio 32/24 0/0 +60%/+60% thanks, -Ath -- http://big.wayland.dk/Lottery.asp - The BIG Lottery
Conman	Posted - 2003.11.30 12:10:00 - [58] Wondering why everyone feels a need to punish laser user simply because they do more damage to shields but have to compensate by basically having an insane amount of cap drain which means they wont be able to run thier shields or any other important meduim slot items. I have used all three weapon types and have found having cap to run your shields s more important then a little bit of extra damage. I am drunken irish slave hahaha i live
Ardor	Posted - 2003.11.30 14:37:00 - [59] Lasers are the 'best' weapons ingame. They make (slightly) more damage and have better tracking. This advantage comes for a price: energy usage. Projectil and missile users can use their energy for defence. If you want balance you have to subtract the better defence possibilities of projectil/missile users from the damage of energy weapons (laser/hybrid). I have controlled burst 4, energy system op and energy management both at 5, and amarr battleship at 4. One Tachyon uses 8.466 energy/second on an Apocalypse. 4 Tachyons use 33.86e/sec. 1 Hardener needs 2e/sec. Most people use 2 hardeners (em/thermal). A large shield booster uses 40e/sec. A medium shield booster uses 20e/sec. Do some math... Currently projectil have only slightly less DoT. Missiles do make more damage then a laser (if all missiles hit). But projectil and missile users have a lot of energy to boost their shield defence while laser users need their energy to power their weapons. All battleships no matter what race do have about the same recharge rate/sec. The low slot advantage on Amarr ships is not an advantage. We have to sacrifice low slots for our lasers to be able to use them. I need 4 cap rechargers in my low slots to power 7 dual heavy pulse (best large laser in my opinion because of the low cap usage) and still run out of cap if i use them nonstop without any other module activated. I don't see a low slot advantage but i see a big medium slot disadvantage for amarr ship/laser users. With 3 or 4 medium slots (Armageddon/Apocalypse) it's hard to use shield defence. I want at least 1 warp scrambler for a certain reason. There is no place for a shield boost amplifier on amarr ships. Caldari can run 3 hardeners, 1 amplifier, 1 XL booster and 1 warpscrambler if they use cap rechargers. And their missiles do about the same damage as lasers (if not even more because of free damage choice). Minmatar can almost do the same. Lasers are by far the worst weapons ingame followed by hybrid weapons. The new energy charges will change a lot. They will be a must for laser users in PvP at the cost of another medium slot. If an med slot cap booster battery (i dont remember the name, the thing which needs this cap charges) and a warp scrambler are a must to be able to destroy an enemy ship then i have 1 free med slot on an Armageddon or 2 free med slots on an Apocalypse. No way for shield defence so i have to go for armor defence. Hmmm, i can't fit the hull repairer on an Armageddon because i still want this charges thingy and 1 warp scrambler. An Armor repairer is more important and a lot more effective then a hull repairer. Armor defence is less effective then shield defence. 2* 50% shield hardeners give 50 emp / 60 explosive / 40 kinetic / 60 thermal resistance. Two 32,5% armor platings give 60 / 45 / 50 / 35. And i do need 2 medium slots to keep my armor up: hull and armor repairer. The 1600er plating is a nice thing for everyone. Those energy charges come with a big price. They need another medium slot. And they need a lot of cargo. You can't competete 1:1 Pvp without them but you can't hunt NPC with them. So i say lasers are the worst weapons. But as long as battles are only a gank fest over a short time where many pilots from one side shoot one single pilot from the other side to kill him within seconds the weapon with the most damage output in a short time will stay the weapon of choice for everyone. And this weapon still is the laser. I really don't like this kind of combat. As an amarr roleplayer who uses exclusivly amarrian ships and lasers and who is looking for balanced 1:1 encounters i am frustrated with the current balance on TQ and the coming changes will make it worse (crystal nerf). But i am not only here for critic. I have a few ideas for discussion: 1.) Don't introduce the big energy charges (although they would be very handy for laser users). I fear their impact on balance will be to important and they will change the game to much. They will be a must for everyone at the price of an medium slot. 1b.) If you introduce them, please make the size of the charges very small so laser users can stay the same time in deep space if he uses them as an ammo user can be in space (NPC hunting). 2.) Give projectil/hybrid/missile/charges users a big ammo bay and an auto-reload option. There is really no need for this micro management penalty. It's only a fun killer and have no impact on PvP encounters. 3.) Make armor defence as strong as shield defence. I would gladly pay 2 energy/sec for 50% armor platings. 4.) Introduce repairers which can repair hull and armor. 5.) Introduce repair drones. 6.) If all weapons (missiles/turrets) nearly do the same damage as it is now reduce the energy drain on hybrid/lasers by at least 70% (seventy percent, i am serious). 7.) 2 times HP overall for battleships, 3 times HP overall for cruisers and 4 times HP overall for fregates will at least give you the chance
Ardor	Posted - 2003.11.30 14:46:00 - [60] Damn, that was long. Here is the rest: 6.) 2 times HP overall for battleships, 3 times HP overall for cruisers and 4 times HP overall for fregates will at least give you the chance to say goodbye to your ship if you are the unlucky one who is attacked by several other players in a fleet battle. In 1:1 encounters it will make a combat a long lasting fight to call others for help which is fine for me. 7.) Don't make ships disappear if a user logs out and logs in with an alt. Don't make ships disappear at all while they are in a PvP fight. For PvE the 2 minutes are fine.

ga'ia	Posted - 2003.11.30 23:32:00 - [61] Edited by: ga'ia on 30/11/2003 23:33:22 1.) Don't introduce the big energy charges (although they would be very handy for laser users). I fear their impact on balance will be to important and they will change the game to much. They will be a must for everyone at the price of an medium slot. I think the purpose of these charges are suppose to be more favored by the Amarr since as you said they take hugh cargo. All the other races currently need to use thier cargo hulls for ammo, which Amarr have all free (unless having some missiles on the apoc) and can use these charges. They then dont 'need' to go 7 cap relays on the low but can put in maybe 3 upgrades instead and becoming more leathal. I dont think Caldari nor Minimatar users would find it rather efficient to sacrifice a medslot + HUGH amount of cargo when they need that for 'firepower'. Gallante users might use it, if they could find a balance, which is hard. 1b.) If you introduce them, please make the size of the charges very small so laser users can stay the same time in deep space if he uses them as an ammo user can be in space (NPC hunting). No for the reason above, everyone would use it... 2.) Give projectil/hybrid/missile/charges users a big ammo bay and an auto-reload option. There is really no need for this micro management penalty. It's only a fun killer and have no impact on PvP encounters. The changes in ammo which are currently on chaos are more than enought to compensate. Auto-reload could be nice, cant see why not really...anyone? 3.) Make armor defence as strong as shield defence. I would gladly pay 2 energy/sec for 50% armor platings. Well the shield moduls take abit more cpu to so might had to increase that then...or maybe just give the energized more bonus and increase the fitting requrement. However, I would LOVE to see a simular effect lite the harderner effect but on the armor, maybe a new modul? why not? . 4.) Introduce repairers which can repair hull and armor. Yea...this is why so few ppl tank armor, because they die with 40% left.... And hull repairers are awefully inefficient... 5.) Introduce repair drones. Think thats a soonTM. 6.) If all weapons (missiles/turrets) nearly do the same damage as it is now reduce the energy drain on hybrid/lasers by at least 70% (seventy percent, i am serious). Uhm no... --------------- 6.) 2 times HP overall for battleships, 3 times HP overall for cruisers and 4 times HP overall for fregates will at least give you the chance to say goodbye to your ship if you are the unlucky one who is attacked by several other players in a fleet battle. In 1:1 encounters it will make a combat a long lasting fight to call others for help which is fine for me. If you¦re attacked by several others there should be very much you could do about it... And 1v1 combat is the one with the most cap relays and the one with the most harderners of the kind you¦re attacker has, together with standard shieldbooster and shield amplifier (+ a warpscrambler on tq) that wins. 7.) Don't make ships disappear if a user logs out and logs in with an alt. Don't make ships disappear at all while they are in a PvP fight. For PvE the 2 minutes are fine. SoonTM __________________________________________________________
TomB	Posted - 2003.12.03 21:49:00 - [62] There will not be more changes to charges for this patch, truly sorry but there are now bigger matters that I must attend to (targeting speed, jump in points, warping, camping etc.). I will unstick this thread and open a new one in the future, if more tuning will be needed. "Where is my hat?"
Sathana	Posted - 2003.12.12 02:07:00 - [63] sorry to be slightly off-topic, but when someone said something about ammo sizes i remembered something- Mines- their volume didn't change with launchers. you can no longer fit mines in an M-12 where you could before. thnx :)
dalman	Posted - 2003.12.12 05:08:00 - [64] Quote: sorry to be slightly off-topic, but when someone said something about ammo sizes i remembered something- Mines- their volume didn't change with launchers. you can no longer fit mines in an M-12 where you could before. thnx :) Since mines has no other purpose than lag, and creating lag won't be needed to catch someone after the patch, mines will have no purpose at all... M.I.A. since 2004-07-30
HeadHunta II	Posted - 2003.12.28 02:25:00 - [65] Hmmm, well i skilled myself for lasers mainly...short after patch i was using some Heavy Anode Particle Streams i found before. They made arround 80-94 dmg per shot with Radio M at optimal range and my skills...now after the patch they do 24-56 dmg -> totally suck . And no..they are not damaged. Sry, i dont really understand why such a decrease for lasers?! May i didnt get the point so explain it to me again..gimme only 1 good reason for this..even now where it is harder to kill the npc¦s!
Luc Boye	Posted - 2003.12.28 06:39:00 - [66] It's not about NPCs its about pvp balance -- 2004.12.29 23:33:40combatMining Pollution Cloud hits you, doing 140.0 damage.
Nimrodel	Posted - 2004.01.28 02:51:00 - [67] Edited by: Nimrodel on 28/01/2004 02:54:30 Since it has gone live The Nerf of lasers and boost of projectiles and Hybrids I feel that ranged combat is a little unbalanced Perhaps just a boost or nerf both was a bit too much possibly change the ranged damage to heat would work.. eg radio does just heat? Altough Im glad as this means they we will see alot more players in Gallante and Minmitar ships as these are now the most powerful in terms of BS PvP Since everyone was complaining about 'Overpowered lasers' this change is a good one that should empisise the bonus's of each gun type --------------------------------------------- Nimrodel Dark Force User Joint Espionage & Defence Industries --------------------------------------------- Your Medium YF-12a Smartbomb hits Rusty Cloud, doing 0.0 damage.
Aranox	Posted - 2004.02.10 13:00:00 - [68] I appologise if this has been discussed before, haven't time to read all posts but hopefully this is correct forum... With the changes in optimum ranges and bonus/penalties, there are gonna be a bit of reajusting by people to get used to the new figures, I was wondering if there was the option of selecting the range optimum of your guns on a target!? I.e if your optimum is 47k you can only orbit at 50k etc.. there is no 47k option, this perhaps could be more prevelent at the lower end of the scale but i find it hard to ever get to the best range for my guns and often forget what each is anyway! perhaps there could be an option (like when loading new ammo) to orbit at the selected guns optimum range (which is why i think it should be an option from that icon since you may be carrying different guns!!! rather than having to try to muddle it and spend too much valuable time trying to achieve it!? If this has been said before sorry and if there is already this option let me know as i have been unable to find it!!!


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