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Murukan
Minmatar
The Priory
Shroud Of Darkness
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Posted - 2006.11.17 17:53:00 -
[1]
I know people didn't like the ranges of sniping and how big a discrepency between t1 and t2 ammo there was. But i think by nerfing the range of t2 longe range ammo from 100% to 80% you guys overlooked a serious problem that will arise.
For fleet battles the most common range of engagement is around 190-220km away from each other. Bships with t2 guns can hit comfortable at this range. Now with the range reduction their range will be more in the 160-180km range. This is not a bad thing in itself but with a certain new ship fleet combat will become fubared.
The rokh gets its optimal bonus which was fine with the earlier t2 ammo. With targeting set at an artificial cap of 250km the rokh really only had an advantage from 220-250km. That window isn't exactly very large so it doesn't make the rokh very overpowered.
However with t2 ammo being nerfed the rokh will still be able to hit at that range rather easily. However the window of difference now between other bship and the rokh moves from 220-250 to 180-250. That's a huge change and it's going to end up making whoever fields a fleet of rokhs the winner, simply because other bships will not be able to touch a rokh if it's at 220km where the rokh will be able to shoot back no problem
Manlove by Zaphod Jones
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Nyxus
GALAXIAN
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.11.17 18:38:00 -
[2]
Good post Murukan, and you nailed the problem in one.
This actually has a good corollary. Remember when we only had T1 ammo and long rage fleet combat consisted of ships 130km to 160km? When T2 ammo (100% range) was introduced and fleets could engage at around 200km it mandated that only people with T2 long range weapons could compete. The shorter ranges (130 to 160km) were completely outclassed and everyone migrated to T2 weapons just to be competative.
Now we have T2 weapons with an upper limit of 180km, with one ship able to reach 250km with ease. How long do you really think it will take before people migrate to Rokh only fleets?
Being able to shoot at you enemy with them unable to return fire is just too strong of an advantage not to use.
Nyxus
It's great being Amarr, ain't it?Ö
 Originally by: Tuxford
I love how you guys can take stats from a test server that is few months out of date and then panic over them.
Gee, wonder why..
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2006.11.17 18:58:00 -
[3]
Yep, fleets are basically going to change from "if you can't use T2 large turrets, don't bother showing up in a BS" to "if you can't use T2 large rails on a Rokh, don't bother showing up in a BS". Should be fun for the 425mm II railgun owner bpo crowd, sucks for pretty much everyone else...
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Murukan
Minmatar
The Priory
Shroud Of Darkness
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Posted - 2006.11.18 04:47:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Azerrad InExile
Yep, fleets are basically going to change from "if you can't use T2 large turrets, don't bother showing up in a BS" to "if you can't use T2 large rails on a Rokh, don't bother showing up in a BS". Should be fun for the 425mm II railgun owner bpo crowd, sucks for pretty much everyone else...
it will be interesting to see the prices of 425 t2's after the rokh puts a monopoly on the fleet warfare market. I wonder what devs think of the impact this will have on fleets?
Manlove by Zaphod Jones
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Lirt
State War Academy
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Posted - 2006.11.18 16:21:00 -
[5]
And you think that before the t2 ammo nerf it was fair for the Rokh to have optimal bonus and still the other ships be able to hit in same range?
So to be able to use that bonus you have to fit t1 ammo...
The target range is capped at 250km when the Rokh was able to fire even from 300km. If you want t2 ammo back as they were then raise the target range, or just remove the cap completely, which would do same thing.
Rokh is meant to fire from longer distances than other bs.
No reason to post here for nerfs cause you are jealous.
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infraX
Caldari
Finite Horizon
The Red Skull
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Posted - 2006.11.18 16:45:00 -
[6]
or, "If you can't use T2 large rails and don't have Caldari battleship 5, don't bother showing up."
Seems kinda silly to nerf the range of all the T2 ammo, but then add a ship that outclasses all others in the range department. Not that I care because fleet fights and focus fire blobs are meh.
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Butter Dog
ISS Navy Task Force
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.18 18:14:00 -
[7]
This is a potential problem.
425 II's already cost 15m each... 
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Murukan
Minmatar
The Priory
Shroud Of Darkness
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Posted - 2006.11.19 09:11:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Lirt
And you think that before the t2 ammo nerf it was fair for the Rokh to have optimal bonus and still the other ships be able to hit in same range?
So to be able to use that bonus you have to fit t1 ammo...
The target range is capped at 250km when the Rokh was able to fire even from 300km. If you want t2 ammo back as they were then raise the target range, or just remove the cap completely, which would do same thing.
Rokh is meant to fire from longer distances than other bs.
No reason to post here for nerfs cause you are jealous.
no noob it's because the rokh is going to make all other bships obsolete for fleets. I mean minmatar just got a supposed "fleet bship". Howabout the devs level the playing field and switch the mael's bonus' to 5% dmg per level and 10% optimal? Yah you caldari would whine the utter **** out of the devs.
Before the nerf the rokh still had an advantage as it could hit from 220-250 quite easily where as other bships can't. With the nerf however they can still hit up to 250, however other bships will only be able to hit up to 180. Read my whole god **** post before you spout off like a ******* idiot ok? It's not about being jealous of the rokh, it's about the fact that the rokh is going to make other fleet ships absolutely usless. I know you idiot caldari pilots are going to love that because you play eve on easy mode, but it's a tad retarded for those who fly other races.
Manlove by Zaphod Jones
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murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.19 09:37:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Murukan
I know people didn't like the ranges of sniping and how big a discrepency between t1 and t2 ammo there was. But i think by nerfing the range of t2 longe range ammo from 100% to 80% you guys overlooked a serious problem that will arise.
For fleet battles the most common range of engagement is around 190-220km away from each other. Bships with t2 guns can hit comfortable at this range. Now with the range reduction their range will be more in the 160-180km range. This is not a bad thing in itself but with a certain new ship fleet combat will become fubared.
The rokh gets its optimal bonus which was fine with the earlier t2 ammo. With targeting set at an artificial cap of 250km the rokh really only had an advantage from 220-250km. That window isn't exactly very large so it doesn't make the rokh very overpowered.
However with t2 ammo being nerfed the rokh will still be able to hit at that range rather easily. However the window of difference now between other bship and the rokh moves from 220-250 to 180-250. That's a huge change and it's going to end up making whoever fields a fleet of rokhs the winner, simply because other bships will not be able to touch a rokh if it's at 220km where the rokh will be able to shoot back no problem
Making the range difference between the Rokh and everything else is exactly why they nerfed T2 ammo ranges, nothing else. They (Tux?) wanted the Rokh to have a clear cut (some might even say "huge") advantage over other BSs when it came to range, T2 ammo or not. Now it has it.
Is it crap? Yes. Will they (Tux) make it fair and put T2 ammo back where it was? I doubt it.
Because I said so...
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Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.19 10:13:00 -
[10]
I personally put the bonus of the rokh as giving an advantage at intermediate ranges.
A rokh for example could be using antimatter at a range where a megathron already has switched to spike.
That's where the rokh should be getting it advantage, not in the 180-250km range slot, because that indeed makesa rokh fleet something that's very hard to engage unless on your own terms.
Old blog |
Happster
Polaris Project
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Posted - 2006.11.19 10:26:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Happster on 19/11/2006 10:36:31
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: Murukan
I know people didn't like the ranges of sniping and how big a discrepency between t1 and t2 ammo there was. But i think by nerfing the range of t2 longe range ammo from 100% to 80% you guys overlooked a serious problem that will arise.
For fleet battles the most common range of engagement is around 190-220km away from each other. Bships with t2 guns can hit comfortable at this range. Now with the range reduction their range will be more in the 160-180km range. This is not a bad thing in itself but with a certain new ship fleet combat will become fubared.
The rokh gets its optimal bonus which was fine with the earlier t2 ammo. With targeting set at an artificial cap of 250km the rokh really only had an advantage from 220-250km. That window isn't exactly very large so it doesn't make the rokh very overpowered.
However with t2 ammo being nerfed the rokh will still be able to hit at that range rather easily. However the window of difference now between other bship and the rokh moves from 220-250 to 180-250. That's a huge change and it's going to end up making whoever fields a fleet of rokhs the winner, simply because other bships will not be able to touch a rokh if it's at 220km where the rokh will be able to shoot back no problem
Making the range difference between the Rokh and everything else is exactly why they nerfed T2 ammo ranges, nothing else. They (Tux?) wanted the Rokh to have a clear cut (some might even say "huge") advantage over other BSs when it came to range, T2 ammo or not. Now it has it.
Is it crap? Yes. Will they (Tux) make it fair and put T2 ammo back where it was? I doubt it.
LOL.....if that is the case EVE is a pretty fawked up game......
If devs wants everyone to play Caldari's....they should say so when ppl sign up 
guess next up for Caldari would be to get the best drone ship 
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murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.19 11:06:00 -
[12]
The Rokh will be able to equal or outrange every other BS using T2 ammo with T1 ammo, outdamage all other BS at extreme ranges with it's own T2 ammo, and outdamage most close range sniping BS at close/mid range with Antimatter and Javelin.
Because I said so...
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Dagis
United Knights Mining and Security
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Posted - 2006.11.19 13:12:00 -
[13]
About your main subject i think you do have a point, but at the same time the ship is designed for sniping so it should out snipe the other ships.
Also the second thing about caldari been easy mode and just been pure sucky that they are so good is utter crap.
The description for caldari is what made majority of people go Caldari, i know when i first was picking my character i read though all the different descriptions and made a desicion upon what was described to me, as i am sure what happened with a lot of other caldari pilots.
I definatly didn't pick caldari because i thought it was "easy mode" i didn't even know that much about the game to have made that choice..
So please could people stop saying that people who pick caldari are only wanting to play the game on easy mode because i am sure for the most part this isn't the case..
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Paigan
Amarr
Katsu Corporation
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Posted - 2006.11.19 13:59:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Paigan on 19/11/2006 14:01:17
Originally by: Dagis
So please could people stop saying that people who pick caldari are only wanting to play the game on easy mode because i am sure for the most part this isn't the case..
I agree (alhtough this is offtopic to some extent)
edit:---
oh and it's a friendly bump for a good point the OP states (although i'd love the rokh's imbalance as someone with Caldari BS V :D )
---
In my opionion, "easy mode" is just a dumb cynical synonym for "intelligent mode".
Even IF people choose caldari because they are better.
Why not?
Intelligence is to analyse the game and pick the most efficient weapon (, ship, race, etc).
Saying "haha you noobs just use easy mode, real men play hard mode" is about the same as saying "real men burn dollar notes to warm their house. Because buying wood for a fraction of the money instead would be too easy"
If one race is overpowered, it's the dev's responsibility to fix that. If they don't get it done, everyone plays that race.
This is called balancing.
--
This game is still in beta stage |
Argenton Sayvers
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Posted - 2006.11.19 14:09:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 19/11/2006 14:10:57
Well ... i think i already got used to CCPs way of doing things... See tux's comment about balancing the drake. I remember when they nerfed the font into this unreadable mess and people complained. Then someone found a working workaround to allow the user to select the font. CCPs reaction? They nerfed the workaround.
Anyway, the real tragedy of this matter is not that there is only one fleet Battleship left. The real tragedy is that i had the chance to buy a 425mm Rail II BPO for 3.5b 6 months ago ...
Thats the fun part ... rokh wont be the only BS used in fleets because not every alliance out there can afford to field 50 BS each equipped with 400m in the highslots ...
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Butter Dog
ISS Navy Task Force
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.19 16:12:00 -
[16]
The Rohk's range bonus could be changed to 5% per level... would be a little more balanced then
I would hate to see pure Rohk fleets engaging at 230km+ all the time. Annoying and boring.
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Paigan
Amarr
Katsu Corporation
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Posted - 2006.11.19 16:25:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Argenton Sayvers
Anyway, the real tragedy of this matter is not that there is only one fleet Battleship left. The real tragedy is that i had the chance to buy a 425mm Rail II BPO for 3.5b 6 months ago ...
Don't worry. I guess invention will put the prices doen again.
Maybe not to some reasonable 3-4mil. But maybe to 7-10mil again. Maybe even less.
I wouldn't spend X bil for any type of T2 BPO just before inventions being introduced.
--
This game is still in beta stage |
Crellion
Art of War
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.19 17:02:00 -
[18]
Peopl worry too much.Megathron will still be better than the Rokh because wanting to engage at 230km is not the same as achieving this goal and the Mega with the tracking bonus is still the nest all around fleet BS (when fleets become large fleets then Maelstroms -in 1 volley per target type of fights they do 100% more DPS than the Rokh- and abbadons - they do teh uberest DPS for fleet battles- take over)
The rokh will only have 2 uses a fleet weapon: fighting a battle of attrition while vastly outnumbered by players with less SPs and the mid range thingy that Ithildin mentioned for what its worth... (against cruisers and frigs however I suspect that at 60kms a Mega in faloff might hit more often than a a Rokh in optimal when you count tracking - typical fleet Mega has 50+ optimal and 29 or 30 kms faloff with antimatter).
Anyway I think that having a BS that had a niche between 230-250kms was a lot more unbalanced than the present SiSi state tbh. (I dont have Caldari BS V on this char while I do have Gallente BS V so dont flame that I am prejudiced pls).
Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim. |
Murukan
Minmatar
The Priory
Shroud Of Darkness
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Posted - 2006.11.19 20:28:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Crellion
Peopl worry too much.Megathron will still be better than the Rokh because wanting to engage at 230km is not the same as achieving this goal and the Mega with the tracking bonus is still the nest all around fleet BS (when fleets become large fleets then Maelstroms -in 1 volley per target type of fights they do 100% more DPS than the Rokh- and abbadons - they do teh uberest DPS for fleet battles- take over)
The rokh will only have 2 uses a fleet weapon: fighting a battle of attrition while vastly outnumbered by players with less SPs and the mid range thingy that Ithildin mentioned for what its worth... (against cruisers and frigs however I suspect that at 60kms a Mega in faloff might hit more often than a a Rokh in optimal when you count tracking - typical fleet Mega has 50+ optimal and 29 or 30 kms faloff with antimatter).
Anyway I think that having a BS that had a niche between 230-250kms was a lot more unbalanced than the present SiSi state tbh. (I dont have Caldari BS V on this char while I do have Gallente BS V so dont flame that I am prejudiced pls).
I definately don't think the 230-250km range niche is overpowered. It's just with the t2 longe range ammo nerf it will have a 180-250km niche which is a huge boost from what the current fleet situation is.
Manlove by Zaphod Jones
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Aki Yamato
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Posted - 2006.11.19 20:40:00 -
[20]
Ferox i smaller buddy of rokh and never been any uberkliller between BC, why Rokth should be ?
BIG GUN
BIG FUTURE |
Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2006.11.19 20:51:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Aki Yamato
Ferox i smaller buddy of rokh and never been any uberkliller between BC, why Rokth should be ?
Probably because there are never any huge BC vs. BC long range fleet fights. If there were you would see the same problem. There is also the difference that the Ferox has fewer turrets than most of the other BC which gives a significant difference in damage, while the Rokh has the same number or more turrets than the other fleet BS which means that the damage output of the Rokh is only slightly less.
The Rokh should be 6 turrets/4 launchers (or possibly 7/3), 8 turrets removes the only downside of the Caldari long range turret ships: significantly lower damage in return for significantly improved range.
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Murukan
Minmatar
The Priory
Shroud Of Darkness
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Posted - 2006.11.19 20:53:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Aki Yamato
Ferox i smaller buddy of rokh and never been any uberkliller between BC, why Rokth should be ?
Your brain is clearly the smaller buddy to your mouth as this arguement has already been discussed earlier in the topic.
Manlove by Zaphod Jones
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TZeer
Eve Defence Force
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.19 21:09:00 -
[23]
I cant quite see why people are whining for this.
Everybody know`s that the agressor picks the range in any fleetbattle. And the rohk`s damageoutput is mediocre at best.
And as you all said, people who are caldari are mostly missionrunners and raven*****s. We are not used to all this velocity and turret tracking... we cant fly this ship. We have flown ravens and going "easy mode" for 3 years now, we gonna get pwnd 
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Tachy
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Posted - 2006.11.19 21:12:00 -
[24]
Hammerhead has many problems finding a way to make factional warfare become true because about half the pilots are Caldari. Most couldn't care less about factions, but there's a root for possible imbalances later on.
Tux happily tips the scales a bit more in favour of the Caldari.
There must be a greater pictureÖ or a visionÖ behind those changes so some devs can find solutions pilots like Sarmaul dismissed when the problems had been discussed officially because they lead to massive problems.
--*=*=*--
The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing.
by Sharkbait | 2006.09.20 |
Gierling
Gallente
Celestial Fleet
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.19 21:24:00 -
[25]
Long range ammo needs to be nerfed to the same range as Iron, and the Rokh needs to either lose two turrets or have its range bonus turned down to 5% per level.
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Tachy
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Posted - 2006.11.19 21:27:00 -
[26]
Reducing the grid size could help a bit too. 150km side to side might even have a good effect on lag and node response times. But that would be a harsh change.
--*=*=*--
The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing.
by Sharkbait | 2006.09.20 |
TZeer
Eve Defence Force
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.19 21:28:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Gierling
Long range ammo needs to be nerfed to the same range as Iron, and the Rokh needs to either lose two turrets or have its range bonus turned down to 5% per level.
Nah :P
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TZeer
Eve Defence Force
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.19 21:29:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Tachy
Reducing the grid size could help a bit too. 150km side to side might even have a good effect on lag and node response times. But that would be a harsh change.
Erm, I dont think the rohk are able to fit 8xT2 Rail atm without PDU or RCU... SO nerfing it even more would not be a good idea.
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Spaced Skunk
Yesodic Nomads Corp
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Posted - 2006.11.19 21:34:00 -
[29]
even if you can hit it, I find even when it has maybe 3 slots of sensor boosters and tracking comps, its tank is very hard to break.
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TZeer
Eve Defence Force
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.19 21:36:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Spaced Skunk
even if you can hit it, I find even when it has maybe 3 slots of sensor boosters and tracking comps, its tank is very hard to break.
Why?
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Spaced Skunk
Yesodic Nomads Corp
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Posted - 2006.11.19 21:39:00 -
[31]
Originally by: TZeer
Originally by: Spaced Skunk
even if you can hit it, I find even when it has maybe 3 slots of sensor boosters and tracking comps, its tank is very hard to break.
Why?
Resistance bonus, lots of shield, fitting a few PDUs allows for a cap injector, 25% resist rigs that increase just sig radius. Yup.
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TZeer
Eve Defence Force
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.19 21:46:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Spaced Skunk
Originally by: TZeer
Originally by: Spaced Skunk
even if you can hit it, I find even when it has maybe 3 slots of sensor boosters and tracking comps, its tank is very hard to break.
Why?
Resistance bonus, lots of shield, fitting a few PDUs allows for a cap injector, 25% resist rigs that increase just sig radius. Yup.
How many of the snipers deal EM damage? Not the mega and not the tempy.
If I uderstand you correctly you are thinking of a cap injector for a sheildbooster? You can barely, if at all fit 8 T2 rails now without using a pdu or rcu.
And regarding rigs. You can only use one that affects the same stuff. Dunno if that means different damage or sheild hardeners overall...
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Zaethiel
Murder-Death-Kill
Blood Raiders Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.19 23:28:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Dagis
About your main subject i think you do have a point, but at the same time the ship is designed for sniping so it should out snipe the other ships.
Also the second thing about caldari been easy mode and just been pure sucky that they are so good is utter crap.
The description for caldari is what made majority of people go Caldari, i know when i first was picking my character i read though all the different descriptions and made a desicion upon what was described to me, as i am sure what happened with a lot of other caldari pilots.
I definatly didn't pick caldari because i thought it was "easy mode" i didn't even know that much about the game to have made that choice..
So please could people stop saying that people who pick caldari are only wanting to play the game on easy mode because i am sure for the most part this isn't the case..
But playing a caldari charecter and flying caldari ships is different. My charecter is mimataar but bc i was created back when amarr where king i fly amarr, which is at a disadvantage in game atm. My alt is training caldari bc Caldari is the best race atm and unless Tux gets hit on the head by a piano it doesn't seem like that is going to change.
_________________________________________
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.19 23:36:00 -
[34]
Even without a resistance bonus the ship would be ridiculously hard to kill.
The biggest projectiles are going to be deep into fall off at the range that the rokh can shoot. If the rokh had the same range as the other battleships this would be equivelent to a 62.5% resistance bonus at BS 5[including the 25% it has already].[to projectiles, 90%+ to the others]
This of course is extended by the fact that in fleet battles, tanking is more important than damage.
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Murukan
Minmatar
The Priory
Shroud Of Darkness
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Posted - 2006.11.20 04:08:00 -
[35]
Originally by: TZeer
Originally by: Spaced Skunk
Originally by: TZeer
Originally by: Spaced Skunk
even if you can hit it, I find even when it has maybe 3 slots of sensor boosters and tracking comps, its tank is very hard to break.
Why?
Resistance bonus, lots of shield, fitting a few PDUs allows for a cap injector, 25% resist rigs that increase just sig radius. Yup.
How many of the snipers deal EM damage? Not the mega and not the tempy.
If I uderstand you correctly you are thinking of a cap injector for a sheildbooster? You can barely, if at all fit 8 T2 rails now without using a pdu or rcu.
And regarding rigs. You can only use one that affects the same stuff. Dunno if that means different damage or sheild hardeners overall...
It doesn't matter what dmg type the enemy does. If your rokh fleet is sitting at 200-220 the enemy will not be able to hit. That is the standard fleet engagement range atm. People will migrate to the rokh when the advantage of not being hit becomes aparent. Then you'll see rokh fleets and nothing else and that is stupid imo
Manlove by Zaphod Jones
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murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.20 04:36:00 -
[36]
Edited by: murder one on 20/11/2006 04:36:18
Here is why the Rokh is going to be so effective:
Range with T1 guns- using T1 guns/ammo it can reach to the same range or beyond that of all other BS using T2 guns/ammo. If you can't hit it, it doesn't matter how much damage you can do. All the other BS's damage output drops to zero.
Training time- it takes 60+ days to get to T2 large guns regardless of type, and that's if you have your learning skills done. T1 fitted Rokhs will be easy to obtain skill-wise and they *will* be effective when used in numbers, especially against an enemy that can't hit back due to being outranged.
Tracking- Tracking at 200km+ is a non issue when engaging anything larger than a frigate. Sure it's going to be hard to shoot down interceptors and fast moving dictors and the occasional stabber, but any cruiser with MWD is going to die due to sig increase, and any cruiser with an AB isn't fast enough to make a difference. Tracking simply doesn't matter at ultra long range when you're firing at large targets. For anything closer you have your support ships.
Fitting the Rokh- the Rokh has plenty of slots. It has enough low slots to fit 3x magstab IIs and two left over for fitting mods. Put 3x sensor boosters and 3x tracking comps in the mids and you have very quick lock time, plenty of extra tracking and plenty of damage/range. Drop a sensor booster to add an MWD if you like when you fit 1-2 RCU IIs. The shield amount and the natural resists will be quite enough to allow a Rokh to survive 1-2 volleys and warp out if it's properly aligned during a fleet fight.
It will take a LOT of firepower to bring down a Rokh compared to other sniping fitted BS due to the simple fact that *all* of the slots are generally consumed with range/tracking/sensor booster/damage mods, not tanking mods. Once people are able to fly T2 fitted Rokhs, the need for range will be even less of a requirement and they can remove some of the range mods and replace them with extenders or hardeners or both. Needing a PDU or RCU to fit the guns and MWD isn't a drawback if it doesn't take away the ability to mount the requisite 3x magstab IIs. Once you have the basics fitted to the ship to get the job done, everything else is just gravy. Every other BS in the game when fitted for sniping doesn't have this luxury. They all end up with every slot filled just to compete in range and damage.
The Rokh encourages the use of massed numbers of ships at maximum range. Exactly what we are trying to get away from.
Because I said so...
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Dopefish
Amarr
Quad and Fish
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Posted - 2006.11.20 05:17:00 -
[37]
If ccp introduced some typ of "rig" or something that could increase your range maybe that would balance the ammo nerf?
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murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.20 05:33:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Dopefish
If ccp introduced some typ of "rig" or something that could increase your range maybe that would balance the ammo nerf?
LOL? They do indeed have optimal/falloff rigs. The main issue is that the penalties for using them are not worth it/too severe (+10% grid per rig per gun) and since they stack with your other range mods already installed they provide almost no increase in range/falloff over and above the existing mods.
so unless you have a huge amount of extra grid (probably not) and don't have regular range/tracking mods already fitted (again, you probably do) then they're of no use. Furthermore, while regular mods provide an increase to range and tracking in one mod, the rigs only provide bonuses to one or the other, not both. And the boost per rig is much smaller than a corresponding module's increase per unit.
Because I said so...
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Crellion
Art of War
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.20 06:36:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Goumindong
Even without a resistance bonus the ship would be ridiculously hard to kill.
The biggest projectiles are going to be deep into fall off at the range that the rokh can shoot. If the rokh had the same range as the other battleships this would be equivelent to a 62.5% resistance bonus at BS 5[including the 25% it has already].[to projectiles, 90%+ to the others]
This of course is extended by the fact that in fleet battles, tanking is more important than damage.
Thnx to the forums those of us who dont have the relevant experience can learn from reading people's post. Smashing!
Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim. |
TZeer
Eve Defence Force
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.20 07:13:00 -
[40]
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: Dopefish
If ccp introduced some typ of "rig" or something that could increase your range maybe that would balance the ammo nerf?
LOL? They do indeed have optimal/falloff rigs. The main issue is that the penalties for using them are not worth it/too severe (+10% grid per rig per gun) and since they stack with your other range mods already installed they provide almost no increase in range/falloff over and above the existing mods.
so unless you have a huge amount of extra grid (probably not) and don't have regular range/tracking mods already fitted (again, you probably do) then they're of no use. Furthermore, while regular mods provide an increase to range and tracking in one mod, the rigs only provide bonuses to one or the other, not both. And the boost per rig is much smaller than a corresponding module's increase per unit.
That penalty can be reduced by a skill.
I think it was 10% per skill lvl, not sure.
But yeah, will still be hard to fit thoose guns.
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.20 07:19:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Crellion
Originally by: Goumindong
Even without a resistance bonus the ship would be ridiculously hard to kill.
The biggest projectiles are going to be deep into fall off at the range that the rokh can shoot. If the rokh had the same range as the other battleships this would be equivelent to a 62.5% resistance bonus at BS 5[including the 25% it has already].[to projectiles, 90%+ to the others]
This of course is extended by the fact that in fleet battles, tanking is more important than damage.
Thnx to the forums those of us who dont have the relevant experience can learn from reading people's post. Smashing!
Im sorry is there something wrong with stating that damage reduction gets you more bang for you buck than an increase in damage?
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Tribunal
FIRMA
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.20 08:03:00 -
[42]
Quote:
However with t2 ammo being nerfed the rokh will still be able to hit at that range rather easily. However the window of difference now between other bship and the rokh moves from 220-250 to 180-250. That's a huge change and it's going to end up making whoever fields a fleet of rokhs the winner, simply because other bships will not be able to touch a rokh if it's at 220km where the rokh will be able to shoot back no problem
The Rokh is one of the all time largest mistakes that could be introduced into EvE with its current bonuses.
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Crellion
Originally by: Goumindong
Even without a resistance bonus the ship would be ridiculously hard to kill.
The biggest projectiles are going to be deep into fall off at the range that the rokh can shoot. If the rokh had the same range as the other battleships this would be equivelent to a 62.5% resistance bonus at BS 5[including the 25% it has already].[to projectiles, 90%+ to the others]
This of course is extended by the fact that in fleet battles, tanking is more important than damage.
Thnx to the forums those of us who dont have the relevant experience can learn from reading people's post. Smashing!
Im sorry is there something wrong with stating that damage reduction gets you more bang for you buck than an increase in damage?
Damage reduction does not get you more bang for your buck then increased damage with fleet battles. As long as focus fire stays as it is tanking fleet battleships will be an idea for people's wild fantasies.
"We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and applaud when they go by." - Will Rogers |
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.20 08:34:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Goumindong on 20/11/2006 08:37:13
Originally by: Tribunal
Damage reduction does not get you more bang for your buck then increased damage with fleet battles. As long as focus fire stays as it is tanking fleet battleships will be an idea for people's wild fantasies.
If tanking is irrelevent, then damage is irrelevent.
However to make a point. 3 damage mods will produce about a 50-60% damage increase, 3 tanking mods will produce about a 50% reduction in damage taken.
Now lets examine two different ships, Ship A which fits 3 DR mods and Shib B which fits 3 damage mods.
Ship A does 1 dps and takes 1/2 damage
Shib B does 1.6 dps and takes full damage.
Ship A shoots at ship B, ship B shoots at ship A. Ship A takes .8 Damage, ship B takes 1 damage.
Ship A outdamages ship by by 25% in real damage.
Exand this to a fleet situation.
10 ships are shooting at each other. It takes 10 ships worth of full volleys to kill one ship.
The DPS fitted fleet kills ships in 1.25 volleys. The tank fitted fleet kills ships in 1 volley.
After the initial attack, Fleet A has 10 ships with one ship almost dead, Fleet B has 9 ships. After the next volley Fleet A has 9 ships and B has 9 ships, the next A has 9 and B has 8. Then A has 8, B has 7. Then A has 8, B has 6.
It keeps getting worse for fleet B from there.
Lets examine this on a larger level.
Fleet consist of 100 ships, it takes 10 volleys to kill a ship.
Fleet A and B shoot at each other. 10 of fleet B's ships are destroyed, 8 of Fleet A's ships are destroyed. They fire again. 9.2 of fleet B's ships are destroyed, 6.4 of fleet A's ships are destroyed.
After two volleys the count stands at Fleet A with 84.6 ships left and fleet B with 80.8 ships left.
A third volley B looses 8.5 ships, A looses 6.5 ships. Count is A 78.1 ships and B with 72.3.
A fourth. A looses 5.9 ships, B looses 7.9 ships. 72.2 ships on side A, 64.4 on Side B.
Do i need to go on?
Keep in mind that alphastikes and rof normalize the larger the fleet and the longer the engagement.
But the fact of the matter is that a big ol passive tank will keep your side alive longer to do more damage than trying to do more damage in a fleet situation will.
You will be able to save more ships due to warping out as well.
Edit: balanced setups ought to outperform hard stacked setups from any perspective, but i havent really examined which produces the best damage/tank ratio, and it also depends a lot on which ship you are sticking the mods.
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Gragnor
Ordos Humanitas
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Posted - 2006.11.20 11:29:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Goumindong
Edited by: Goumindong on 20/11/2006 08:37:13
Originally by: Tribunal
Damage reduction does not get you more bang for your buck then increased damage with fleet battles. As long as focus fire stays as it is tanking fleet battleships will be an idea for people's wild fantasies.
If tanking is irrelevent, then damage is irrelevent.
[sic]
A fourth. A looses 5.9 ships, B looses 7.9 ships. 72.2 ships on side A, 64.4 on Side B.
Do i need to go on?
Keep in mind that alphastikes and rof normalize the larger the fleet and the longer the engagement.
But the fact of the matter is that a big ol passive tank will keep your side alive longer to do more damage than trying to do more damage in a fleet situation will.
You will be able to save more ships due to warping out as well.
Edit: balanced setups ought to outperform hard stacked setups from any perspective, but i havent really examined which produces the best damage/tank ratio, and it also depends a lot on which ship you are sticking the mods.
What about range? If I am within your optimal and you cannot hit me - this detailed assessment is irrelevant. The Rohk can hit and do damage (albeit reduced) where no other ship can. Given the tactical ability to control range plus its natural tank - 10 Rohk's will PWN 10 of every other class of ship - provided range is a controlling factor.
The new I Win fleet button- "warp to me at 100km" - blat away at 220km while the other ships have ONE tactical option - warp out as they cannot fire back and do any damage.
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Tribunal
FIRMA
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.20 16:12:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Goumindong
Edited by: Goumindong on 20/11/2006 08:37:13
Originally by: Tribunal
Damage reduction does not get you more bang for your buck then increased damage with fleet battles. As long as focus fire stays as it is tanking fleet battleships will be an idea for people's wild fantasies.
If tanking is irrelevent, then damage is irrelevent.
However to make a point. 3 damage mods will produce about a 50-60% damage increase, 3 tanking mods will produce about a 50% reduction in damage taken.
Now lets examine two different ships, Ship A which fits 3 DR mods and Shib B which fits 3 damage mods.
Ship A does 1 dps and takes 1/2 damage
Shib B does 1.6 dps and takes full damage.
Ship A shoots at ship B, ship B shoots at ship A. Ship A takes .8 Damage, ship B takes 1 damage.
Ship A outdamages ship by by 25% in real damage.
Exand this to a fleet situation.
10 ships are shooting at each other. It takes 10 ships worth of full volleys to kill one ship.
The DPS fitted fleet kills ships in 1.25 volleys. The tank fitted fleet kills ships in 1 volley.
After the initial attack, Fleet A has 10 ships with one ship almost dead, Fleet B has 9 ships. After the next volley Fleet A has 9 ships and B has 9 ships, the next A has 9 and B has 8. Then A has 8, B has 7. Then A has 8, B has 6.
It keeps getting worse for fleet B from there.
Lets examine this on a larger level.
Fleet consist of 100 ships, it takes 10 volleys to kill a ship.
Fleet A and B shoot at each other. 10 of fleet B's ships are destroyed, 8 of Fleet A's ships are destroyed. They fire again. 9.2 of fleet B's ships are destroyed, 6.4 of fleet A's ships are destroyed.
After two volleys the count stands at Fleet A with 84.6 ships left and fleet B with 80.8 ships left.
A third volley B looses 8.5 ships, A looses 6.5 ships. Count is A 78.1 ships and B with 72.3.
A fourth. A looses 5.9 ships, B looses 7.9 ships. 72.2 ships on side A, 64.4 on Side B.
Do i need to go on?
Keep in mind that alphastikes and rof normalize the larger the fleet and the longer the engagement.
But the fact of the matter is that a big ol passive tank will keep your side alive longer to do more damage than trying to do more damage in a fleet situation will.
You will be able to save more ships due to warping out as well.
Edit: balanced setups ought to outperform hard stacked setups from any perspective, but i havent really examined which produces the best damage/tank ratio, and it also depends a lot on which ship you are sticking the mods.
Focus fire has a nasty thing called damage over flow. The gank BS will take same amount of time to kill as the tanked BS (in a fleet battle) as the total damage each takes in 2-3 seconds is enough to kill either.
"We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and applaud when they go by." - Will Rogers |
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.20 21:31:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Tribunal
Focus fire has a nasty thing called damage over flow. The gank BS will take same amount of time to kill as the tanked BS (in a fleet battle) as the total damage each takes in 2-3 seconds is enough to kill either.
Correct. However, the time it takes to kill each BS is irrelevent.
What is relevent is how many ships are nessesary to kill another ship in that time frame.
What happens in big fleet battles is "over activation". That is, more ships than are nessesary to kill a ship, try and kill the ship.
Their guns dont actualy activate and do damage because the ship is dead by then, so they immediatly swticth to the secondary target.
The quicker you get to secondary targets, the quicker you start locking new targets and the quicker you can kill ships.
The damage based fleet will have more ships required to kill a single ship compared to a tank based fleet, and its the number of activations against a ship that make the difference.
The difference is subtle when comparing the time it takes to kill a single BS[1.25x2 is 2.5 a whole half a second longer living in the above example], but very important when comparing the time it takes to destroy a fleet.
Simply put, those .5 seconds add up, and in a 30 second fleet battle the difference between a 2 second kill and a 2.5 second kill is 3 battleships worth[assuming 0 lock time and no force losses on either side, force losses magnify the issue in favor of the tanked setup]
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Naughty Boy
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Posted - 2006.11.21 00:26:00 -
[47]
In Kali, only the rokh can sit outside ECM range and still do damage, if it's not a major advantage I don't know what it is.
NB.
In Rust We Trust |
Nifel
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.21 01:06:00 -
[48]
I wonder where you get your ranges from tbh. The highest range a tempest can get reliably is about 170km with the current T2 ammo. Meaning everyone warps in at roughly 160km unless you as a FC want to screw up your firepower.
Same thing with T1 ammo before the stupidity that is T2 ammo was introduced. 80-100km if you wanted to hit anything. I even remember FA trying to warp in at 130km on us. The damage they put out was a tickle.
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car."
RKK Ranking: (MIN14) Sama |
nexvis
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Posted - 2006.11.21 01:19:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Crellion
Originally by: Goumindong
Even without a resistance bonus the ship would be ridiculously hard to kill.
The biggest projectiles are going to be deep into fall off at the range that the rokh can shoot. If the rokh had the same range as the other battleships this would be equivelent to a 62.5% resistance bonus at BS 5[including the 25% it has already].[to projectiles, 90%+ to the others]
This of course is extended by the fact that in fleet battles, tanking is more important than damage.
Thnx to the forums those of us who dont have the relevant experience can learn from reading people's post. Smashing!
Im sorry is there something wrong with stating that damage reduction gets you more bang for you buck than an increase in damage?
Aside from being, what's it called.... oh ya, wrong; no there's nothing wrong with it all.
For example, a good fleet fit megathron:
7 425 rails
3 sensor boosters, ECCM or AB
3 mag field II
3 tracking enhancer II
damage control
hit hard, get out. Put a fleet of gank snipers together, and no amount of tanking is going to save your ass. period. Put a fleet of tanked BS's together, and you wont kill anything. period. We arent talking about mid range skirmishes here, this thread is about long range sniperfests. Tanks have no place in ranged engagements. At most you'll see 1-2 plates on a sniper, and often a full rack of plates on scorps. plates dont really do a whole lot to save you when you're primary, other than buy you time to warp out in the lag. And a repper wont even cycle once before it's too late to do you any good.
Of course if you cant fly a rokh, it just doesnt matter anymore, you'll be in the fight just long enough to align before you realize you're just cannon fodder and cant shoot back. Tank or not, you're going to be useless against a pack of rokhs.
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ElweSingollo
Starlancers
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Posted - 2006.11.21 01:28:00 -
[50]
Thing I find interesting is that with Large Energy Spec 4 and Aurora and Amarr b/ship 4 I can hit iirc wiht the knew change to a maximum of 180k with a snipe setup and only 7 Tach 2's... On the rohk I could fit 8 425's (t1 admitidly as I can't use t2) I have Caldari B/ship 3 Large Rails at lvl 1 and my optimal was 210k with iron add abot another 10-15k on top of that with falloff.
The damage may be lower on the Rohk than on my Apoc however if I can't bloody well hit the Rohk how exactly am I going to have any hope of wining a fight against it....?
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Beringe
Caldari
Raptus Regaliter
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Posted - 2006.11.21 02:23:00 -
[51]
I'd actually be quite happy with the mega's 5% damage bonus on the Rokh...
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"Sarcasm and irony are not to be used by the uninitiated."
--Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles-- |
Murukan
Minmatar
The Priory
Shroud Of Darkness
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Posted - 2006.11.21 07:25:00 -
[52]
well a damage bonus would make the mega obsolete. TBH what i think needs to be done is just to not nerf t2 long range ammo's range. That way other bships can still hit pretty far out but at the same time the rokh can still shoot further, just not drastically further to the point that it's super easy to stay at that range and never let the enemy hit you.
Manlove by Zaphod Jones
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Imhotep Khem
Total Mayhem.
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Posted - 2006.11.21 08:05:00 -
[53]
I never saw a fleet of Typhoons when it had its optimal bonus.
____
"If your not dyin' your not tryin'."
"Are you prepared to go all the way, Alexi?" DuGalle |
Gragnor
Ordos Humanitas
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Posted - 2006.11.21 11:36:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Imhotep Khem
I never saw a fleet of Typhoons when it had its optimal bonus.
LOL
Someone has a wicked sense of humour here!!!!
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