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Problem with t2 long range ammo

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Murukan Minmatar The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2006.11.17 17:53:00 - [1] I know people didn't like the ranges of sniping and how big a discrepency between t1 and t2 ammo there was. But i think by nerfing the range of t2 longe range ammo from 100% to 80% you guys overlooked a serious problem that will arise. For fleet battles the most common range of engagement is around 190-220km away from each other. Bships with t2 guns can hit comfortable at this range. Now with the range reduction their range will be more in the 160-180km range. This is not a bad thing in itself but with a certain new ship fleet combat will become fubared. The rokh gets its optimal bonus which was fine with the earlier t2 ammo. With targeting set at an artificial cap of 250km the rokh really only had an advantage from 220-250km. That window isn't exactly very large so it doesn't make the rokh very overpowered. However with t2 ammo being nerfed the rokh will still be able to hit at that range rather easily. However the window of difference now between other bship and the rokh moves from 220-250 to 180-250. That's a huge change and it's going to end up making whoever fields a fleet of rokhs the winner, simply because other bships will not be able to touch a rokh if it's at 220km where the rokh will be able to shoot back no problem Manlove by Zaphod Jones
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.11.17 18:38:00 - [2] Good post Murukan, and you nailed the problem in one. This actually has a good corollary. Remember when we only had T1 ammo and long rage fleet combat consisted of ships 130km to 160km? When T2 ammo (100% range) was introduced and fleets could engage at around 200km it mandated that only people with T2 long range weapons could compete. The shorter ranges (130 to 160km) were completely outclassed and everyone migrated to T2 weapons just to be competative. Now we have T2 weapons with an upper limit of 180km, with one ship able to reach 250km with ease. How long do you really think it will take before people migrate to Rokh only fleets? Being able to shoot at you enemy with them unable to return fire is just too strong of an advantage not to use. Nyxus It's great being Amarr, ain't it?Ö Originally by: Tuxford I love how you guys can take stats from a test server that is few months out of date and then panic over them. Gee, wonder why..
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.11.17 18:58:00 - [3] Yep, fleets are basically going to change from "if you can't use T2 large turrets, don't bother showing up in a BS" to "if you can't use T2 large rails on a Rokh, don't bother showing up in a BS". Should be fun for the 425mm II railgun owner bpo crowd, sucks for pretty much everyone else...
Murukan Minmatar The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2006.11.18 04:47:00 - [4] Originally by: Azerrad InExile Yep, fleets are basically going to change from "if you can't use T2 large turrets, don't bother showing up in a BS" to "if you can't use T2 large rails on a Rokh, don't bother showing up in a BS". Should be fun for the 425mm II railgun owner bpo crowd, sucks for pretty much everyone else... it will be interesting to see the prices of 425 t2's after the rokh puts a monopoly on the fleet warfare market. I wonder what devs think of the impact this will have on fleets? Manlove by Zaphod Jones
Lirt State War Academy	Posted - 2006.11.18 16:21:00 - [5] And you think that before the t2 ammo nerf it was fair for the Rokh to have optimal bonus and still the other ships be able to hit in same range? So to be able to use that bonus you have to fit t1 ammo... The target range is capped at 250km when the Rokh was able to fire even from 300km. If you want t2 ammo back as they were then raise the target range, or just remove the cap completely, which would do same thing. Rokh is meant to fire from longer distances than other bs. No reason to post here for nerfs cause you are jealous.
infraX Caldari Finite Horizon The Red Skull	Posted - 2006.11.18 16:45:00 - [6] or, "If you can't use T2 large rails and don't have Caldari battleship 5, don't bother showing up." Seems kinda silly to nerf the range of all the T2 ammo, but then add a ship that outclasses all others in the range department. Not that I care because fleet fights and focus fire blobs are meh.
Butter Dog ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.18 18:14:00 - [7] This is a potential problem. 425 II's already cost 15m each...
Murukan Minmatar The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2006.11.19 09:11:00 - [8] Originally by: Lirt And you think that before the t2 ammo nerf it was fair for the Rokh to have optimal bonus and still the other ships be able to hit in same range? So to be able to use that bonus you have to fit t1 ammo... The target range is capped at 250km when the Rokh was able to fire even from 300km. If you want t2 ammo back as they were then raise the target range, or just remove the cap completely, which would do same thing. Rokh is meant to fire from longer distances than other bs. No reason to post here for nerfs cause you are jealous. no noob it's because the rokh is going to make all other bships obsolete for fleets. I mean minmatar just got a supposed "fleet bship". Howabout the devs level the playing field and switch the mael's bonus' to 5% dmg per level and 10% optimal? Yah you caldari would whine the utter ** out of the devs. Before the nerf the rokh still had an advantage as it could hit from 220-250 quite easily where as other bships can't. With the nerf however they can still hit up to 250, however other bships will only be able to hit up to 180. Read my whole god post before you spout off like a *** idiot ok? It's not about being jealous of the rokh, it's about the fact that the rokh is going to make other fleet ships absolutely usless. I know you idiot caldari pilots are going to love that because you play eve on easy mode, but it's a tad retarded for those who fly other races. Manlove by Zaphod Jones**
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.19 09:37:00 - [9] Originally by: Murukan I know people didn't like the ranges of sniping and how big a discrepency between t1 and t2 ammo there was. But i think by nerfing the range of t2 longe range ammo from 100% to 80% you guys overlooked a serious problem that will arise. For fleet battles the most common range of engagement is around 190-220km away from each other. Bships with t2 guns can hit comfortable at this range. Now with the range reduction their range will be more in the 160-180km range. This is not a bad thing in itself but with a certain new ship fleet combat will become fubared. The rokh gets its optimal bonus which was fine with the earlier t2 ammo. With targeting set at an artificial cap of 250km the rokh really only had an advantage from 220-250km. That window isn't exactly very large so it doesn't make the rokh very overpowered. However with t2 ammo being nerfed the rokh will still be able to hit at that range rather easily. However the window of difference now between other bship and the rokh moves from 220-250 to 180-250. That's a huge change and it's going to end up making whoever fields a fleet of rokhs the winner, simply because other bships will not be able to touch a rokh if it's at 220km where the rokh will be able to shoot back no problem Making the range difference between the Rokh and everything else is exactly why they nerfed T2 ammo ranges, nothing else. They (Tux?) wanted the Rokh to have a clear cut (some might even say "huge") advantage over other BSs when it came to range, T2 ammo or not. Now it has it. Is it crap? Yes. Will they (Tux) make it fair and put T2 ammo back where it was? I doubt it. Because I said so...
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.19 10:13:00 - [10] I personally put the bonus of the rokh as giving an advantage at intermediate ranges. A rokh for example could be using antimatter at a range where a megathron already has switched to spike. That's where the rokh should be getting it advantage, not in the 180-250km range slot, because that indeed makesa rokh fleet something that's very hard to engage unless on your own terms. Old blog
Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2006.11.19 10:26:00 - [11] Edited by: Happster on 19/11/2006 10:36:31 Originally by: murder one Originally by: Murukan I know people didn't like the ranges of sniping and how big a discrepency between t1 and t2 ammo there was. But i think by nerfing the range of t2 longe range ammo from 100% to 80% you guys overlooked a serious problem that will arise. For fleet battles the most common range of engagement is around 190-220km away from each other. Bships with t2 guns can hit comfortable at this range. Now with the range reduction their range will be more in the 160-180km range. This is not a bad thing in itself but with a certain new ship fleet combat will become fubared. The rokh gets its optimal bonus which was fine with the earlier t2 ammo. With targeting set at an artificial cap of 250km the rokh really only had an advantage from 220-250km. That window isn't exactly very large so it doesn't make the rokh very overpowered. However with t2 ammo being nerfed the rokh will still be able to hit at that range rather easily. However the window of difference now between other bship and the rokh moves from 220-250 to 180-250. That's a huge change and it's going to end up making whoever fields a fleet of rokhs the winner, simply because other bships will not be able to touch a rokh if it's at 220km where the rokh will be able to shoot back no problem Making the range difference between the Rokh and everything else is exactly why they nerfed T2 ammo ranges, nothing else. They (Tux?) wanted the Rokh to have a clear cut (some might even say "huge") advantage over other BSs when it came to range, T2 ammo or not. Now it has it. Is it crap? Yes. Will they (Tux) make it fair and put T2 ammo back where it was? I doubt it. LOL.....if that is the case EVE is a pretty fawked up game...... If devs wants everyone to play Caldari's....they should say so when ppl sign up guess next up for Caldari would be to get the best drone ship
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.19 11:06:00 - [12] The Rokh will be able to equal or outrange every other BS using T2 ammo with T1 ammo, outdamage all other BS at extreme ranges with it's own T2 ammo, and outdamage most close range sniping BS at close/mid range with Antimatter and Javelin. Because I said so...
Dagis United Knights Mining and Security	Posted - 2006.11.19 13:12:00 - [13] About your main subject i think you do have a point, but at the same time the ship is designed for sniping so it should out snipe the other ships. Also the second thing about caldari been easy mode and just been pure sucky that they are so good is utter crap. The description for caldari is what made majority of people go Caldari, i know when i first was picking my character i read though all the different descriptions and made a desicion upon what was described to me, as i am sure what happened with a lot of other caldari pilots. I definatly didn't pick caldari because i thought it was "easy mode" i didn't even know that much about the game to have made that choice.. So please could people stop saying that people who pick caldari are only wanting to play the game on easy mode because i am sure for the most part this isn't the case..
Paigan Amarr Katsu Corporation	Posted - 2006.11.19 13:59:00 - [14] Edited by: Paigan on 19/11/2006 14:01:17 Originally by: Dagis So please could people stop saying that people who pick caldari are only wanting to play the game on easy mode because i am sure for the most part this isn't the case.. I agree (alhtough this is offtopic to some extent) edit:--- oh and it's a friendly bump for a good point the OP states (although i'd love the rokh's imbalance as someone with Caldari BS V :D ) --- In my opionion, "easy mode" is just a dumb cynical synonym for "intelligent mode". Even IF people choose caldari because they are better. Why not? Intelligence is to analyse the game and pick the most efficient weapon (, ship, race, etc). Saying "haha you noobs just use easy mode, real men play hard mode" is about the same as saying "real men burn dollar notes to warm their house. Because buying wood for a fraction of the money instead would be too easy" If one race is overpowered, it's the dev's responsibility to fix that. If they don't get it done, everyone plays that race. This is called balancing. -- This game is still in beta stage
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.11.19 14:09:00 - [15] Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 19/11/2006 14:10:57 Well ... i think i already got used to CCPs way of doing things... See tux's comment about balancing the drake. I remember when they nerfed the font into this unreadable mess and people complained. Then someone found a working workaround to allow the user to select the font. CCPs reaction? They nerfed the workaround. Anyway, the real tragedy of this matter is not that there is only one fleet Battleship left. The real tragedy is that i had the chance to buy a 425mm Rail II BPO for 3.5b 6 months ago ... Thats the fun part ... rokh wont be the only BS used in fleets because not every alliance out there can afford to field 50 BS each equipped with 400m in the highslots ...
Butter Dog ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.19 16:12:00 - [16] The Rohk's range bonus could be changed to 5% per level... would be a little more balanced then I would hate to see pure Rohk fleets engaging at 230km+ all the time. Annoying and boring.
Paigan Amarr Katsu Corporation	Posted - 2006.11.19 16:25:00 - [17] Originally by: Argenton Sayvers Anyway, the real tragedy of this matter is not that there is only one fleet Battleship left. The real tragedy is that i had the chance to buy a 425mm Rail II BPO for 3.5b 6 months ago ... Don't worry. I guess invention will put the prices doen again. Maybe not to some reasonable 3-4mil. But maybe to 7-10mil again. Maybe even less. I wouldn't spend X bil for any type of T2 BPO just before inventions being introduced. -- This game is still in beta stage
Crellion Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.19 17:02:00 - [18] Peopl worry too much.Megathron will still be better than the Rokh because wanting to engage at 230km is not the same as achieving this goal and the Mega with the tracking bonus is still the nest all around fleet BS (when fleets become large fleets then Maelstroms -in 1 volley per target type of fights they do 100% more DPS than the Rokh- and abbadons - they do teh uberest DPS for fleet battles- take over) The rokh will only have 2 uses a fleet weapon: fighting a battle of attrition while vastly outnumbered by players with less SPs and the mid range thingy that Ithildin mentioned for what its worth... (against cruisers and frigs however I suspect that at 60kms a Mega in faloff might hit more often than a a Rokh in optimal when you count tracking - typical fleet Mega has 50+ optimal and 29 or 30 kms faloff with antimatter). Anyway I think that having a BS that had a niche between 230-250kms was a lot more unbalanced than the present SiSi state tbh. (I dont have Caldari BS V on this char while I do have Gallente BS V so dont flame that I am prejudiced pls). Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
Murukan Minmatar The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2006.11.19 20:28:00 - [19] Originally by: Crellion Peopl worry too much.Megathron will still be better than the Rokh because wanting to engage at 230km is not the same as achieving this goal and the Mega with the tracking bonus is still the nest all around fleet BS (when fleets become large fleets then Maelstroms -in 1 volley per target type of fights they do 100% more DPS than the Rokh- and abbadons - they do teh uberest DPS for fleet battles- take over) The rokh will only have 2 uses a fleet weapon: fighting a battle of attrition while vastly outnumbered by players with less SPs and the mid range thingy that Ithildin mentioned for what its worth... (against cruisers and frigs however I suspect that at 60kms a Mega in faloff might hit more often than a a Rokh in optimal when you count tracking - typical fleet Mega has 50+ optimal and 29 or 30 kms faloff with antimatter). Anyway I think that having a BS that had a niche between 230-250kms was a lot more unbalanced than the present SiSi state tbh. (I dont have Caldari BS V on this char while I do have Gallente BS V so dont flame that I am prejudiced pls). I definately don't think the 230-250km range niche is overpowered. It's just with the t2 longe range ammo nerf it will have a 180-250km niche which is a huge boost from what the current fleet situation is. Manlove by Zaphod Jones
Aki Yamato	Posted - 2006.11.19 20:40:00 - [20] Ferox i smaller buddy of rokh and never been any uberkliller between BC, why Rokth should be ? BIG GUN BIG FUTURE
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.11.19 20:51:00 - [21] Originally by: Aki Yamato Ferox i smaller buddy of rokh and never been any uberkliller between BC, why Rokth should be ? Probably because there are never any huge BC vs. BC long range fleet fights. If there were you would see the same problem. There is also the difference that the Ferox has fewer turrets than most of the other BC which gives a significant difference in damage, while the Rokh has the same number or more turrets than the other fleet BS which means that the damage output of the Rokh is only slightly less. The Rokh should be 6 turrets/4 launchers (or possibly 7/3), 8 turrets removes the only downside of the Caldari long range turret ships: significantly lower damage in return for significantly improved range.
Murukan Minmatar The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2006.11.19 20:53:00 - [22] Originally by: Aki Yamato Ferox i smaller buddy of rokh and never been any uberkliller between BC, why Rokth should be ? Your brain is clearly the smaller buddy to your mouth as this arguement has already been discussed earlier in the topic. Manlove by Zaphod Jones
TZeer Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.19 21:09:00 - [23] I cant quite see why people are whining for this. Everybody know`s that the agressor picks the range in any fleetbattle. And the rohk`s damageoutput is mediocre at best. And as you all said, people who are caldari are mostly missionrunners and raven*****s. We are not used to all this velocity and turret tracking... we cant fly this ship. We have flown ravens and going "easy mode" for 3 years now, we gonna get pwnd
Tachy	Posted - 2006.11.19 21:12:00 - [24] Hammerhead has many problems finding a way to make factional warfare become true because about half the pilots are Caldari. Most couldn't care less about factions, but there's a root for possible imbalances later on. Tux happily tips the scales a bit more in favour of the Caldari. There must be a greater pictureÖ or a visionÖ behind those changes so some devs can find solutions pilots like Sarmaul dismissed when the problems had been discussed officially because they lead to massive problems. --==*-- The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait \| 2006.09.20
Gierling Gallente Celestial Fleet Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.19 21:24:00 - [25] Long range ammo needs to be nerfed to the same range as Iron, and the Rokh needs to either lose two turrets or have its range bonus turned down to 5% per level.
Tachy	Posted - 2006.11.19 21:27:00 - [26] Reducing the grid size could help a bit too. 150km side to side might even have a good effect on lag and node response times. But that would be a harsh change. --==*-- The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait \| 2006.09.20
TZeer Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.19 21:28:00 - [27] Originally by: Gierling Long range ammo needs to be nerfed to the same range as Iron, and the Rokh needs to either lose two turrets or have its range bonus turned down to 5% per level. Nah :P
TZeer Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.19 21:29:00 - [28] Originally by: Tachy Reducing the grid size could help a bit too. 150km side to side might even have a good effect on lag and node response times. But that would be a harsh change. Erm, I dont think the rohk are able to fit 8xT2 Rail atm without PDU or RCU... SO nerfing it even more would not be a good idea.
Spaced Skunk Yesodic Nomads Corp	Posted - 2006.11.19 21:34:00 - [29] even if you can hit it, I find even when it has maybe 3 slots of sensor boosters and tracking comps, its tank is very hard to break.
TZeer Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.19 21:36:00 - [30] Originally by: Spaced Skunk even if you can hit it, I find even when it has maybe 3 slots of sensor boosters and tracking comps, its tank is very hard to break. Why?

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