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Ctrl-Q we need to get rid of this.

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Victor Valka Caldari Archon Industries	Posted - 2006.11.19 23:16:00 - [31] One thing I never understood about this is: When you press Ctrl+Q, doesn't the program (EVE in this case) receive a KILL signal of some sort? Obviously there is a difference between a program crashing a getting a KILL signal, so there shouldn't be a problem of telling them apart. So, I would say that if EVE gets the KILL signal, there should be no emergency warp. But, eh, I'm probably messing something up here. Bash me.
oodin Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.11.19 23:27:00 - [32] Originally by: Victor Valka One thing I never understood about this is: When you press Ctrl+Q, doesn't the program (EVE in this case) receive a KILL signal of some sort? Obviously there is a difference between a program crashing a getting a KILL signal, so there shouldn't be a problem of telling them apart. So, I would say that if EVE gets the KILL signal, there should be no emergency warp. But, eh, I'm probably messing something up here. Bash me. i have no idea since my computer skills is at a turn on/turn off pc but i hope logging will eventually get fixed...
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.19 23:30:00 - [33] Originally by: Victor Valka One thing I never understood about this is: When you press Ctrl+Q, doesn't the program (EVE in this case) receive a KILL signal of some sort? Obviously there is a difference between a program crashing a getting a KILL signal, so there shouldn't be a problem of telling them apart. So, I would say that if EVE gets the KILL signal, there should be no emergency warp. But, eh, I'm probably messing something up here. Bash me. Turn PC off. Pull network cable out. Set firewall to block net access (or per app, if yours can do that), etc. //Maya
Zaethiel Murder-Death-Kill Blood Raiders Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.19 23:38:00 - [34] Ctrl + Q is the sme thing as playing in window mode and clicking the X at the top right of the screen. So removing ctrl +q is pointless. Pulling the plug also works. _________________________________________
Victor Valka Caldari Archon Industries	Posted - 2006.11.19 23:42:00 - [35] Originally by: Maya Rkell Turn PC off. Pull network cable out. Set firewall to block net access (or per app, if yours can do that), etc. I see what you're aiming at. It would be a start however. Also: most Windows machines don't just turn off, they kill all processes and then shut-down in an orderly fashion (or at least try to); pulling out the network cable ain't really the handy thing to do, certainly not as easy/fast as Ctrl+Q; firewall, well, I imagine a lot of people have no idea how to do that and it certainly can't be done with a push of a pair of buttons (AFAIK). Imagine if CCP did a stealth patch on this one. Let the hilarity ensue!
Quantum Joe	Posted - 2006.11.19 23:42:00 - [36] Mine some Veldspar, refine the tritanium, build a bridge and get over it!
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.19 23:46:00 - [37] Then I'd be screaming loudly, because stealth patching ANYTHING is not good. It needs to be done cleanly and in the open. Also, you underestimate the mentalities behind this. Also, several (non-free) firewalls have a right click option to enable/block net access to any program running in windows. //Maya
Xendie Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.19 23:49:00 - [38] im not entirely sure but i think that CTRL+Q gives a kill signal to the game and if you shut down the net access you will get a 30-40sec of the client wondering where the heck the server went and then the server will consider the client disconnected and log him off. CTRL+Q does it instantly. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Victor Valka Caldari Archon Industries	Posted - 2006.11.19 23:52:00 - [39] Originally by: Maya Rkell Then I'd be screaming loudly, because stealth patching ANYTHING is not good. It needs to be done cleanly and in the open. Here we disagree, I believe. Sometimes violence is the answer. I get your point, however. That would be bad PR and game design philosophy or somesuch. Originally by: Maya Rkell Also, you underestimate the mentalities behind this. Also, several (non-free) firewalls have a right click option to enable/block net access to any program running in windows. I always underestimate people. That way they get a fair chance at proving me wrong. It's not really a sin, ya know.
StarStryder Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.19 23:52:00 - [40] And of course if you're running in windowed mode then kill process is fast and efficient. Basically there's no way to tell a logger from a connection drop. Any changes to the way the game works need to be balanced so that those who do get dropped aren't penalised too harshly.
Victor Valka Caldari Archon Industries	Posted - 2006.11.19 23:53:00 - [41] Originally by: StarStryder And of course if you're running in windowed mode then kill process is fast and efficient. Basically there's no way to tell a logger from a connection drop. Any changes to the way the game works need to be balanced so that those who do get dropped aren't penalised too harshly. Clicking the red "X" is still the same as a KILL signal, I believe.
StarStryder Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.19 23:59:00 - [42] Originally by: Victor Valka Originally by: StarStryder And of course if you're running in windowed mode then kill process is fast and efficient. Basically there's no way to tell a logger from a connection drop. Any changes to the way the game works need to be balanced so that those who do get dropped aren't penalised too harshly. Clicking the red "X" is still the same as a KILL signal, I believe. I didn't say the close button, I said, and I quote, "kill process". This means the task manager, and when you kill process, that process dies. No kill signals, no processing of any kind. The process has all of its memory deallocated and it removed from the aactive process pool. As far as the servers are concerned this looks identical to the client crashing or a router failing.
Isis Dea Minmatar Raging Phoenix Incorporated	Posted - 2006.11.20 00:03:00 - [43] Get rid of Ctrl+Q completely, it makes the killing of a capital vessel useless. Hitting the X and/or power button or other forms of Ctrl+Q get rid of as well. In terms of replacing the unfair losses made by it... Thats what petitions are for. ___ _"Akkubai Angels" - Book 1 of My EVE Novel_
Victor Valka Caldari Archon Industries	Posted - 2006.11.20 00:08:00 - [44] Originally by: StarStryder Originally by: Victor Valka Originally by: StarStryder And of course if you're running in windowed mode then kill process is fast and efficient. Basically there's no way to tell a logger from a connection drop. Any changes to the way the game works need to be balanced so that those who do get dropped aren't penalised too harshly. Clicking the red "X" is still the same as a KILL signal, I believe. I didn't say the close button, I said, and I quote, "kill process". This means the task manager, and when you kill process, that process dies. No kill signals, no processing of any kind. The process has all of its memory deallocated and it removed from the aactive process pool. As far as the servers are concerned this looks identical to the client crashing or a router failing. You see, I have only a vague idea as to how this works, so maybe someone with more expertise on the subject could talk about this. I'm sure CCP knows. Maybe. I hope.
Desiderious Gallente United System's Commonwealth	Posted - 2006.11.20 00:25:00 - [45] I totally agree. A solution may be to make their ship vulnerable for a longer time after they log, but make it so where npc's cant kill them, only players. This is from someone whos been killed by pirates before. Trust me I want to run escape just as badly from them but dammit dont use game machanics to cheat your way out. ----------------------------- Oink ^OO^
Malena Panic Gallente Acme Technologies Incorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.11.20 00:39:00 - [46] Originally by: DangermanUK Well if people genuinely CTD its usually down to a loss of Internet service, power failure or crash. It is not always possible recover form this in 20 minutes. My ISP lost service in my area for several hours once.....is it my fault? No. Do I deserve to lose a ship in that instance? 'Deserve' doesn't enter into it. We're playing a game on imperfect technology over an imperfect network. Complaining about losing a ship to CTD or network outage is like complaining you missed the gamewinning pass during a rainy game because you slipped on the wet astroturf. There should be no 'free pass' when logging out in space, CTRL-Q or not.
Splagada Minmatar Tides of Silence	Posted - 2006.11.20 00:55:00 - [47] there was a bob guy with a great sig saying "ctrl+q aint no system i have heard of" ------ relaxed corp looking for members
DuckM4n Vo	Posted - 2006.11.20 01:00:00 - [48] if you want to get rid of logging you need to balance it out with the ability to detect bubbles
StarStryder Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.20 01:17:00 - [49] Originally by: Malena Panic Originally by: DangermanUK Well if people genuinely CTD its usually down to a loss of Internet service, power failure or crash. It is not always possible recover form this in 20 minutes. My ISP lost service in my area for several hours once.....is it my fault? No. Do I deserve to lose a ship in that instance? 'Deserve' doesn't enter into it. We're playing a game on imperfect technology over an imperfect network. Complaining about losing a ship to CTD or network outage is like complaining you missed the gamewinning pass during a rainy game because you slipped on the wet astroturf. There should be no 'free pass' when logging out in space, CTRL-Q or not. It may be only a game, but this isn't a game like others. Here death has meaning and losing the results of your hard work to a network drop or client crash is no fun. I'm not advocating Ctrl+Q exploiters but I don't see that as a reason to screw over everyone else. Complaining about a target escaping due to an exploit is like saying that a team shouldn't be able to substitute players if someone is injured (dumb analogies ftw). It's only a game after all. Why to do you care if someone gets away!
dellie Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.11.20 01:44:00 - [50] Kharak'khan, If you find ANYONE from E-R/EU logging off and can provide me screenshots/fraps then ill kill them myself.. Just get me some proof... or don't cry..
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.11.20 01:59:00 - [51] Originally by: Victor Valka Originally by: StarStryder Originally by: Victor Valka Originally by: StarStryder And of course if you're running in windowed mode then kill process is fast and efficient. Basically there's no way to tell a logger from a connection drop. Any changes to the way the game works need to be balanced so that those who do get dropped aren't penalised too harshly. Clicking the red "X" is still the same as a KILL signal, I believe. I didn't say the close button, I said, and I quote, "kill process". This means the task manager, and when you kill process, that process dies. No kill signals, no processing of any kind. The process has all of its memory deallocated and it removed from the aactive process pool. As far as the servers are concerned this looks identical to the client crashing or a router failing. You see, I have only a vague idea as to how this works, so maybe someone with more expertise on the subject could talk about this. I'm sure CCP knows. Maybe. I hope. Well, in essence its the difference between the nix signals SIGTERM, SIGINT and SIGKILL. Basically, the way it works, when SIGTERM or SIGINT is sent, the kernel allows the program to finish up its tasks and exit gracefully. This is what happens when you hit "End Program" in task manager or hit the X in the top corner (when you shut down the computer or log off its more like SIGHUP). When SIGKILL is sent, the running process does not recieve anything, the signal goes straight to the kernel, bypassing the process. This is what happens when you end a process in windows. Now, of course you could always do something server side, the server could say "Oh, look, he didn't send his logoff signal, hes a dirty cheater!" but then you screw over everyone that has their clients crash, their ISPs crap out on them and all sorts of other situations like that that you don't really want to punish (many of which may be CCP's fault). --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson*
Synapse Archae Amarr Solarflare Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.11.20 02:02:00 - [52] Originally by: C Duggan Edited by: C Duggan on 19/11/2006 20:48:34 simmilar thing happened to me and some friends a week or two ago, we were camping in low sec, 2 bs and a command ship sitting on gate, our scout sees a freighter come to gate and jump. we engage, scram, web, drones, the works, we get him to around about 1/4 armour before he warps off to a random spot, he'd logged :( oh well, cowards will be cowards. oh, sorry, no, people will use the games mechanics to their advantage. so we get a covert to come and probe, shouldnt be a problem, we can easily find and kill him before his agro timer runs out. and we would then probe down the pod and kill that, we would have ranosmed him, but now we will just kill him, same difference to me, freighter looks nice on the kb but the word came back from the prober, "i cant find him, hes not on scanner" "you did shoot him, right?" it took a few seconds for the first of us to realise what happened, the "user of game mechanics" had logged as soon as he saw us, before he had decloaked. this ment that any damage we did was done after he logged, and thus didnt agro him. dont quite know what to do about that tbh, lucky him we didnt have a gank force that could have killed him before he warped, and i understand that ppl do crash, and that isnt their fault. imho, everyone should have 20 minute timer untill they vanish in space, but they should warp to a point >12au from any point, so that they can be probed, but it would take several minutes. people who genuinely CTD, will log back on before they get found, people who decide "im gonna fly my freighter, without a scout, or support, through low sec space, and reap the rewards of the shorter trade route, adn if i get caught, ill just log," will be catchable and killable. much fiarer i feel. Why not just make it so damage taken while logged out continues the timer? It seems to fit that if you log out and are found by a covops, every time you get hit it should re-extend your max timer. That way after he logged out the damage he took while going into warp would still have given him a time. ~ ~ ~ Originally by: The Knight True, in fact...I think it was during the battle of the bulge when we first realized the Germans were using WCS.
Malena Panic Gallente Acme Technologies Incorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.11.20 02:15:00 - [53] Originally by: StarStryder Originally by: Malena Panic There should be no 'free pass' when logging out in space, CTRL-Q or not. It may be only a game, but this isn't a game like others. You miss the point. I'm not saying it's 'only' a game, but that it's high stakes, and furthermore that there are other high-stakes games where you can be 'screwed' through no fault of your own. The ice was too soft, or too hard, and as a result you were unfairly slowed down, or were too slow to catch the speedier team. The sun was in your eyes just as you looked up to catch that fly ball. These are examples of 'unfairness' that affect the result of a game, yet no-one thinks to establish rules to paper them over. But anyway this whole line of argument is a red herring. The number of legit disconnects in PvP these days is minuscule compared to the cheating going on.
Crimsonjade Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.20 02:28:00 - [54] Originally by: dellie Kharak'khan, If you find ANYONE from E-R/EU logging off and can provide me screenshots/fraps then ill kill them myself.. Just get me some proof... or don't cry.. he was just annoyed as we all are at the person* who is fighting alongside your corp* and not a member of E-R to my knowledge a member of E_R has never done this, but i cant say the same for your mining pets, and several others who have passed thru bwf. unfortuanly it seems to be getting to be real common :/
Ekscalybur	Posted - 2006.11.20 02:38:00 - [55] Originally by: Victor Valka Originally by: Maya Rkell well, I imagine a lot of people have no idea how to do that and it certainly can't be done with a push of a pair of buttons (AFAIK). Imagine if CCP did a stealth patch on this one. Let the hilarity ensue! Actually, it would be very easy to create a switch in your line to your modem so you could kill that link with the push of 1 button. You might lose some speed because of it, but the actual switch would cost all of 2 dollars to build and take 10 mins to make. I'll refrain from posting a how to though. I'm in a one man corp simply because alot of people claim being in an NPC corp is borderline metagaming, I certainly don't pull the control Q business, as my recent loss of a Brutix can attest to. (I wanted to test if I could tank the slowboat towards the gate, it didn't quite work, lol)
Halkin Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.11.20 02:59:00 - [56] Originally by: Crimsonjade Originally by: dellie Kharak'khan, If you find ANYONE from E-R/EU logging off and can provide me screenshots/fraps then ill kill them myself.. Just get me some proof... or don't cry.. he was just annoyed as we all are at the person* who is fighting alongside your corp* and not a member of E-R to my knowledge a member of E_R has never done this, but i cant say the same for your mining pets, and several others who have passed thru bwf. unfortuanly it seems to be getting to be real common :/ Interdictor bubbles seem to have accellerated this, its bad but people do it. I for one know that E-R dont do it, until proved otherwise. The main beef here is that its been thrown around that we do, I mean look at your mans sig ffs. How would you expect us to take it? Mind games is one thing, but calling us plain old cheats is another. I havent actually fought you guys yet so I have no idea what you are capable of, as I've been elsewhere with the bulk of the corp. I'd like to think you would also reserve judgement until we get down to it. Originally by: Hygelac "There's three sides to every story, your side, our side and the Truth!"
Xendie Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.20 03:32:00 - [57] there has been E-R members doing it CJ, i had one of them on fraps also. then there was alot of other people in the E-U alliance that does it constantly and i mean constantly. also -TCA- alliance that E-R had down to help out did it, CDC does it repetedly, Pure has done it 4-5 times and now D2 also. what amazes me is that everytime we go through the same gate none of us and i mean nobody in our corp has ever crashed and disconnected at that gate. amazing isnt it?, whats the statistical propability for that? and no i dont have any of the 145gb fraps left that i have collected in BWF, ive had a total computer breakdown where my motherboard was on fire. funny as it looked it was not so funny as i have to buy new stuff, hence why i havent been to bwf the last week. this crap comp cant take the load of pvp action. ordered new stuff so ill be out there shooting you soon enough again. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Halkin Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.11.20 03:45:00 - [58] Originally by: Xendie there has been E-R members doing it CJ, i had one of them on fraps also. then there was alot of other people in the E-U alliance that does it constantly and i mean constantly. also -TCA- alliance that E-R had down to help out did it, CDC does it repetedly, Pure has done it 4-5 times and now D2 also. what amazes me is that everytime we go through the same gate none of us and i mean nobody in our corp has ever crashed and disconnected at that gate. amazing isnt it?, whats the statistical propability for that? and no i dont have any of the 145gb fraps left that i have collected in BWF, ive had a total computer breakdown where my motherboard was on fire. funny as it looked it was not so funny as i have to buy new stuff, hence why i havent been to bwf the last week. this crap comp cant take the load of pvp action. ordered new stuff so ill be out there shooting you soon enough again. Who cares about your personal problem, I dont give a rats ass. Fact: your 'fraps' got fried. so prove it or lose your rep and go down as a liar Originally by: Hygelac "There's three sides to every story, your side, our side and the Truth!"
oodin Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.11.20 04:07:00 - [59] Originally by: Crimsonjade Originally by: dellie Kharak'khan, If you find ANYONE from E-R/EU logging off and can provide me screenshots/fraps then ill kill them myself.. Just get me some proof... or don't cry.. he was just annoyed as we all are at the person* who is fighting alongside your corp* and not a member of E-R to my knowledge a member of E_R has never done this, but i cant say the same for your mining pets, and several others who have passed thru bwf. unfortuanly it seems to be getting to be real common :/ but ffs crimson,if e-r havent done it so for god sake remove the sig some of your member use.being called cheaters and lamers (yes loggers are cheaters and lamers) when its not true is just plain low and you have to agree with that.never in the months i been in e-r has there ever been talk in corp chat about using some lameass tactics. e-r plays it fair and what other corps do is up to them to sort out but calling e-r loggers in multiple f-e sigs is below the belt! and if there is any proof that what im saying is wrong then bring it to everyones attention no prob.but saying we saw this or we frapsed that but now we lost the fraps just dont cut it.can we atleast agree on that?
oodin Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.11.20 04:16:00 - [60] i see the sig has changed from e-r to e-u.tnx..any chance you can put this in ( not e-r,they rock)

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