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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |

JForce
The Arrow Project The ARR0W Project
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Posted - 2006.11.21 04:09:00 -
[1]
Expectation is a funny old thing. Having played tons of games over my life, I had never really had any contact with the companies behind them, unless it was "error blah blah fix it" etc.
Eve is the first MMORPG I've played, and when I started 2 years ago I was impressed with the way the company interacted with the player base. Always reasonably open with things, the way things were headed etc.
Then there was the explosion of users. Petition and Customer Service queues exploded along with the userbase, and the devs struggled to find time to talk to us.
They posted a blog stating their desire to..um...post more blogs....
Since then we've enjoyed the fairly regular blogs, especially over the last 4 months or so when the performance of the servers has been pretty crappy.
And then Kali1, aka Revelations, came along. And with it came many, many changes:
In-game voice comms
New Battleships for all the races
New Battlecruisers for all the races
A new contract system replacing escrows
New gang system
Rigs
Invention
Salvaging
Exploration
Scanning changes
New map
New corp management tools
The list goes on. Those of you who've taken an interest in any of these things will know that none of them is without controversy. Each one has been debated, broken down piece by piece, with entire spreadsheets devoted to why the flux capacitor on the Hurricane is better than the one on a 1993 Honda Accord.
And yet I have been stunned by the silence from CCP. Aside from the odd comment in a couple of the threads in the Kali forum, there has been very little if any response to the players on Kali changes.
There have been literally dozens of very relevant and very genuine issues raised as a result of the huge changes Kali1 brings. In no way am I advocating for any of them, as I'm sure that the arguments have already been made both for and against.
My view is that each of these needs addressing. There are lots of issues raised that I disagree with, but yet can't really fault the logic of, and would think deserve a look.
I know that CCP are flat out with Kali1, with White Wolf, with The Sims: Station Life®, and that time is short.
But to even state what concerns were being looked at, what is being ignored and why, would at least let us understand whether the testing and discussion and experiments are worth our time and effort.
What are your thoughts on CCP's level of communication around Kali? I mean, isn't it supposed to launch on the 28th? I haven't seen anything official, but if they announce a huge outage for the patch only a couple of days before it, isn't that a bit...odd?
Don't flame. If you have something constructive, please add it. Please don't discuss individual issues you may have with Kali elements. If you're happy with CCP then feel free to say so.
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Idara
Caldari Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.11.21 04:10:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Idara on 21/11/2006 04:13:00 I'd like a blog or something, considering it's right after Fanfest and we've heard absolutely nothing except the occasional post that Kali 1 is hoping for a deployment on the 28th.
As far as I can tell, the stupid Features page for Kali hasn't even been updated, and that was "supposed" to have been done weeks ago. ---
Go! Go! Go pointless Tier 3s!
NERF PAPER! |

Victor Valka
Caldari Archon Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.21 04:14:00 -
[3]
"It's a conspiracy!" 
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2006.11.21 04:15:00 -
[4]
Lessons learned:
1) Forums are largely ignored 2) If you want something nerfed, go to Fanfest and complain about it there
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JForce
The Arrow Project The ARR0W Project
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Posted - 2006.11.21 04:19:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Azerrad InExile Lessons learned:
1) Forums are largely ignored 2) If you want something nerfed, go to Fanfest and complain about it there
You're not the first person to have said that, and it would be sad if info given to devs at Fanfest had more weight than the forums, given that EVERYONE can access the forums and give their thoughts.
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.21 04:20:00 -
[6]
In my experience, CCP talks to its playerbase FAR more than the devs of any other game. Take WoW, for instance. While their forum mods might talk to you and their community reps, the actual devs are sighted maybe once every six months.
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mechtech
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Posted - 2006.11.21 04:36:00 -
[7]
For the most part, a yes.
The only gripe that I have is that they don't say how they will address problems in the game, such as downsides of the HP boost, and the new ECM system.
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JForce
The Arrow Project The ARR0W Project
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Posted - 2006.11.21 04:37:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Risien Drogonne In my experience, CCP talks to its playerbase FAR more than the devs of any other game. Take WoW, for instance. While their forum mods might talk to you and their community reps, the actual devs are sighted maybe once every six months.
That's what I alluded to at the start of my first post...given that CCP does talk to us more, we now expect so much from them. Am I expecting too much?
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Coasterbrian
Celestial Fleet Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.21 04:38:00 -
[9]
It's pretty simple, actually. If the devs got into a debate with the players over whether a change is balanced or fair or not, and did it for every change they make that is potentially controversial (in other words, 99% of the changes), they would spend more time making forum posts than making the game. Hell, if the devs even READ every thread about change discussions, they would still probably spend half of their working day just keeping up on the forums. I think several devs (Oveur, maybe Hammerhead?) have stated in the past that they limit their forum whorage to an hour or so a day. TBH, I bet Sharkbait gets yelled at a lot when he's caught making forum posts instead of working. 
Also remember that the devs have to take everything brought up here with a grain of salt. People debating a change GENERALLY pick their point of view based on how it affects their gameplay style. Look at the removal of carriers as level 4 mission whoring machines: the people that did level 4s in lowsec in their carriers obviously weren't in favor of it, but much of the rest of the playerbase was. The same can go for any change in the game, be it the new gang system (which makes life difficult for large alliances, especially for the first few weeks after kali) to the tech II ammo changes (null nerf) to the debate over whether any of the new ships are worth a crap or not (sure they are, once you get over what you WANT to do with them and figure out what you CAN do with them ).
You get the idea. ----------
I say what I mean, but I don't always mean what I say. |

Jin Jemai
Caldari Nightgliders
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Posted - 2006.11.21 04:39:00 -
[10]
Am I annoyed with the level of communication from CCP themselves? No, but I am annoyed with the amount of communication coming from the community managers. WoW had the same issue early on, little to no communication, and finally Blizzard got their community managers straight and the communication levels rose.
This is not an attack at the community managers at all, as it is usually a matter of lack of info from the devs to them that can cause this. I certainly think there is room for improvement in this area however, even if the community managers compile a list of the daily forum concerns to pass onto the devs for responses that the C.M's can pass on to us. That is if they don't already do that :P
But yeah, it was inevitable that communication levels would decrease with the influx of players, there's simply too much to keep up with. Not to mention that aloft of our feedback lately has been a bunch of dorks whining and groaning about the stupidest things. ----- Im in ur Chicago wearing dresses at night. |
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Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Gallente Ixion Defence Systems The Cyrene Initiative
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Posted - 2006.11.21 04:41:00 -
[11]
This is the first MMORPG i am playing and so far i am amazed by the fact that the company people do take time to answer at some (true not all) questions raised here. But to be honest there must be a line. We as players are very biased and usually demand (note not ask we demand and extort) things that are simply not realistic. That said we also have (as all humans do) the need to ask for the advantage while not caring for the rest.
Especially for Kali ( i am here after RMR so i don't know what happened then), the changes are big and change scares people. It's a fact of life. Change is quite luring and scary at the same time.
So it's good that they don't answer to many threads. Because that would lead to a vast increase of whining and similar stuff, than now is going on.
Maybe i am wrong but that is how i perceive it.
------- Nobody can be exactly like me. Even I have trouble doing it. |

JForce
The Arrow Project The ARR0W Project
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Posted - 2006.11.21 04:46:00 -
[12]
I agree that there is a LOT of "feedback" that's of zero value. But there is an equal amount of geniune stuff that makes sense to at least consider. Or say you're not going to consider 
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Macrominer999
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Posted - 2006.11.21 04:54:00 -
[13]
This company USED to be a genuine place to get help, support, and feedback from the devs. They USED to be reliable and respectful. They USED to be honorable, truthful, and dedicated.
What are they now? None of the above. They have abandoned all tendencies that got them here... they substitute partying, greed, and ego... for dedication to their product and players. Shame on them... shame on young entropeneurs not knowing how to handle fame and fortune. They get their checks... they forget their reality checks. --- TRY AND CONTAIN ME... I'LL ONLY GROW STRONGER. ITS BEST YOU MAKE A PUBLIC COMMENT ON YOUR DECISION TO OVERLOOK YOUR BASE PLAYERS. |

Hllaxiu
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.11.21 05:08:00 -
[14]
Interestingly enough, it seems from eve-search that there are the same number of dev posts now as there ever were. The problem is that the amount of traffic on the forum has increased with the player base (more than tripled since I joined I believe), and so the same number of posts (which is a LOT by game company standards) gets drowned out by people whining about the same thing over and over again. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |

Miss Overlord
Gallente Ferrum Pugnus
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Posted - 2006.11.21 05:09:00 -
[15]
compared with other MMOs CCP has always had a good level of communication i think they are doing a good job given the circumstances and the business pressures forcing kali to be deployed before xmas
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LeMonde

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Posted - 2006.11.21 05:29:00 -
[16]
Don't forget that while we may not be commenting/posting, we're still reading 
I think I can say with good certainty that just about every thread that hits general discussion is read by a CCP employee, many of them even get circulated and the points in them discussed within departments of the company.
So while you may not get a gold bar on your thread, that doesn't mean we haven't seen it.
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Loktofeit
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2006.11.21 05:51:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Loktofeit on 21/11/2006 05:53:22
Originally by: Hllaxiu Interestingly enough, it seems from eve-search that there are the same number of dev posts now as there ever were. The problem is that the amount of traffic on the forum has increased with the player base (more than tripled since I joined I believe), and so the same number of posts (which is a LOT by game company standards) gets drowned out by people whining about the same thing over and over again.
Q F to the T
I find it amusing that in the past few weeks we have received
- several blogs from the devs
- an entire day worth of speeches, videos, concept work, and PPTs on what they are working on in reasonable detail - the entire purpose of which was to get information out to the fans
- a good dozen or so interviews across the fansites
- a 70+ page glossy magazine with a dozen pages of dev-related content from interviews to handling scams to post-Kali Planetary Interaction plans
and someone can actually post
"I'd like a blog or something, considering it's right after Fanfest and we've heard absolutely nothing except the occasional post that Kali 1 is hoping for a deployment on the 28th."
I'd say their communication is far superior to what you get from most MMOGs.
============================ EVE Vault : EVE Fanfest 2006 Coverage ============================ |

Tobias Sjodin
Caldari Ore Mongers SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.21 06:21:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Hllaxiu Interestingly enough, it seems from eve-search that there are the same number of dev posts now as there ever were. The problem is that the amount of traffic on the forum has increased with the player base (more than tripled since I joined I believe), and so the same number of posts (which is a LOT by game company standards) gets drowned out by people whining about the same thing over and over again.
A post for sore eyes.
[ore mongers, recruiting] |

JForce
The Arrow Project The ARR0W Project
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Posted - 2006.11.21 06:27:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Loktofeit Edited by: Loktofeit on 21/11/2006 05:53:22
Originally by: Hllaxiu Interestingly enough, it seems from eve-search that there are the same number of dev posts now as there ever were. The problem is that the amount of traffic on the forum has increased with the player base (more than tripled since I joined I believe), and so the same number of posts (which is a LOT by game company standards) gets drowned out by people whining about the same thing over and over again.
Q F to the T
I find it amusing that in the past few weeks we have received
- several blogs from the devs
- an entire day worth of speeches, videos, concept work, and PPTs on what they are working on in reasonable detail - the entire purpose of which was to get information out to the fans
- a good dozen or so interviews across the fansites
- a 70+ page glossy magazine with a dozen pages of dev-related content from interviews to handling scams to post-Kali Planetary Interaction plans
and someone can actually post
"I'd like a blog or something, considering it's right after Fanfest and we've heard absolutely nothing except the occasional post that Kali 1 is hoping for a deployment on the 28th."
I'd say their communication is far superior to what you get from most MMOGs.
No one is disputing that CCP are better than everyone else.
But judged against their own high standards I feel they've been less than chatty over Kali recently.
As far as Dev blogs go, there's been 1 on gangs, one on ECM, and a few on Kali progress.
But none addressing the top10 issues raised by the community over the Kali changes. And I think that's a shame.
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Roxanna Kell
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2006.11.21 06:43:00 -
[20]
Originally by: LeMonde Don't forget that while we may not be commenting/posting, we're still reading 
I think I can say with good certainty that just about every thread that hits general discussion is read by a CCP employee, many of them even get circulated and the points in them discussed within departments of the company.
So while you may not get a gold bar on your thread, that doesn't mean we haven't seen it.
You should leave Footprints on every thread read by a dev ; ).
LeMonde writes down a forum idea.
Regarding the OP, Dude i can't complain, CCP are doing their best, and as far as I am concerned EVE is Always Ranked Number 1 MMORPG, Be thank full, if you don't like it, its a Bonus to move on a have a LIFE Believe me.
Quote: "Don't touch the RED butt
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Miss Overlord
Gallente Ferrum Pugnus
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Posted - 2006.11.21 06:46:00 -
[21]
eve is still the best out there by far
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Cadadon
Amarr terra firma team Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.21 07:24:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Hllaxiu Interestingly enough, it seems from eve-search that there are the same number of dev posts now as there ever were. The problem is that the amount of traffic on the forum has increased with the player base (more than tripled since I joined I believe), and so the same number of posts (which is a LOT by game company standards) gets drowned out by people whining about the same thing over and over again.
That means nothing, Wrangler is a dev now, and continues to post in his normal way, interacting with the community, but its not 'dev' stuff (most of the time).
Saying that, I can't blame the devs for not posting on here more, the community is a lot whinier now than it used to be, because EVE is becoming more main stream. I'd rather go back to the good old days of 10k max players, and a tight relationship between devs and players. --- They're -- They are Their -- The Smith's are selling their house There -- Look over there |

Reiisha
Frontier Technologies
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Posted - 2006.11.21 08:05:00 -
[23]
Originally by: JForce
Originally by: Risien Drogonne In my experience, CCP talks to its playerbase FAR more than the devs of any other game. Take WoW, for instance. While their forum mods might talk to you and their community reps, the actual devs are sighted maybe once every six months.
That's what I alluded to at the start of my first post...given that CCP does talk to us more, we now expect so much from them. Am I expecting too much?
Quite frnakly, yes.
You forget that when a dev posts in any thread, it gets spammed by people who go offtopic just because they have seen a dev in it and think they can ask something from him. Or the topic just gtes flamed because he posted something that people dn't like.
That's why devs usually don't post on the forums. Some people are idiots, bsaically. Let alone the fact that they can't spend 4 hours a day on the forums, they have things to do besides that.... It's a miracle they communicate with us as much as they do.
EVE History Wiki - Help us fill it!
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Reiisha
Frontier Technologies
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Posted - 2006.11.21 08:06:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Cadadon
Originally by: Hllaxiu Interestingly enough, it seems from eve-search that there are the same number of dev posts now as there ever were. The problem is that the amount of traffic on the forum has increased with the player base (more than tripled since I joined I believe), and so the same number of posts (which is a LOT by game company standards) gets drowned out by people whining about the same thing over and over again.
That means nothing, Wrangler is a dev now, and continues to post in his normal way, interacting with the community, but its not 'dev' stuff (most of the time).
Saying that, I can't blame the devs for not posting on here more, the community is a lot whinier now than it used to be, because EVE is becoming more main stream. I'd rather go back to the good old days of 10k max players, and a tight relationship between devs and players.
Wrangler is not a dev, he's assistant community manager - it's his job to work the forums :P
EVE History Wiki - Help us fill it!
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.21 08:57:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Roxanna Kell
Originally by: LeMonde Don't forget that while we may not be commenting/posting, we're still reading 
I think I can say with good certainty that just about every thread that hits general discussion is read by a CCP employee, many of them even get circulated and the points in them discussed within departments of the company.
So while you may not get a gold bar on your thread, that doesn't mean we haven't seen it.
You should leave Footprints on every thread read by a dev ; ).
People have actually seriously suggested this before. :) But can you imagine the whine when people see that someone has read their thread but didnt reply to it? "OMG The sky is falling, ccp hates me because im amarr" etc etc. 
It worries me that threads are circulated around the office... im sure some of mine has been the laughingstock of the entire company at some time. But thats fine! Im here to please... or something. 
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |

Helison
Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN
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Posted - 2006.11.21 10:40:00 -
[26]
While CCP is still quite active at communicating with us players, there is one point, which is quite lacking in the last time: real information.
We are very busy discussing the aspects of Kali but we get nearly no information on how the features shall work. If we find a massive bug, QA is answering (thanks for this, specially to Mephysto), but if there are questions about game-design, nobody is giving any details.
Just a few areas, where additional information would be / have been very good: * Booster-production * official info about warp to 0 and BM`s * Exploration (we know, how it works atm, but does it work like intended??) * Vivox ...
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Rod Blaine
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.21 12:03:00 -
[27]
Well, I used to say CCP dont give out enough info, and they've actually changed that.
The problem now seems to be that they give our wrong info ... And raise expectations that they can't deliver on.
Part of that is in our own mind however, we always expect more then thay actually promise. But part of it also isn't, and it's pretty shocking to see for example the factional warfare implementation they seem to have worked on for more then half a year.
All in all, frequency is now ok, content is still not. It's going to need improvement, because not every future change is going to be met with a majority of enthusiasm by default.
Old blog |

DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes Forces of Freedom
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Posted - 2006.11.21 14:16:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Eris Discordia I'm not testing because I'm selling my little appartment in Holland 
Blasphemy... Selling your appartment in the Netherlands... tisk. Ow well one pink house less... :P
----------------------------------------------- The BIG Lottery |

Agent Li
Galactic Defence Consortium
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Posted - 2006.11.21 14:53:00 -
[29]
I'm happy with the level of communication.
I am convinced that they read the forums. I also am convinced that while they do take some of the suggestions and complaints to heart, they aren't going to a) make everyone happy with their decisions and b) aren't going to waste time responding in a forum to infinitely repeated requests to answer the same questions.
It's not arrogance. It's thousands of people asking the same questions over and over again, and the developers (a small team, by my reckoning) spending their time coding rather than writing blogs or answering forum questions.
Most of these complaints/questions take the form of:
<insert feature here> is going to unbalance the game and it will be the end of Eve! What are you going to do about it?
or
<insert feature here> is the only way I play in Eve, and if you nerf it, I will logoff forever! What are you going to do about it?
or
<insert feature here> currently ruins the game and it will be the end of Eve by tomorrow night! Why won't you nerf it?
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Leon 026
Caldari Blood Inquisition Sani Khal'Vecna
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Posted - 2006.11.21 14:54:00 -
[30]
I'm personally happy and content about CCP's level of communication, which is by far superior to say for example World of Warcraft.
There is one thing that the EVE community needs to learn from WoW, and its that if you abuse and insult the devs (like the WoW community did at open beta and at launch), the devs are more likely to ignore you and detach themselves from the community, then you get the result of : whine and abuse the devs for not replying; and whine and abuse the devs FOR replying in a fashion that doesnt give in to your every single demands.
Its headed that way unfortunately, seeing all the whine about ship balancing. -------------------------------
[ 2006.06.22 04:28:01 ] Leon 026 > My Crow dances like she's on ecstasy |
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Shadowsword
Gallente COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2006.11.21 16:08:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Shadowsword on 21/11/2006 16:11:28
Originally by: Jim McGregor
CCP are better than everybody else in the industry at communicating with players, so I would say YES IM HAPPY. 
I am, too. CCP is lights-years ahaed of anyone else in that regard.
Little example: A week ago, on the WOW expansion beta, the Druids (undepowered since day one) got one ability that every other class had: being able to use healing/mana potions. New animations for that, and stuff. There was much rejoicing in the druid forums. Then, two weeks later, it got canceled, for no reason any of them could find out (it's not as if they'd suddenly become the I-WIN button, far from it), and Blizzard stated that this ability for druids was a bug in the first place. Nevermind that they didn't say anything about bug in those 2 weeks. Blizzard must have some curious bugs, that create animations and change database entries on dozens of objects.
So, the Druids, already tired of being considered "free kill", of seeing hundreds, if not thousands, of constructive threads answered only by silence, reacted to that obvious lie by... a forum riot... A thread with 200 druids posting askii fingers, a lot of "F--- You Blizzard" popping everywhere, players giving up on WOW, and so on. And the only answer of Blizzard, has been to delete those posts, ban a few druids, and from now on delete on sight EVERY SINGLE thread that voice concern about beta balancing.
To date, this is the most horrible exemple of community managment I've seen. ------------------------------------------ Every ship has a base 60-70% resist against the primary damage type of the race that is the least able to vary it's damage types. |

Wild Rho
Amarr Black Omega Security
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Posted - 2006.11.21 16:12:00 -
[32]
In general it's pretty good but they also have a bad habit of putting in major things without warning (jump queues) as well as saying they are doing x and then doing y.
I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it.
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Major Stormer
Caldari Red Storm Vendetta
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Posted - 2006.11.21 16:13:00 -
[33]
Very. If you dont like it, go and play any SOE game. CCP are Info Desks compared ;)
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Righteous Fury
Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2006.11.21 16:24:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Righteous Fury on 21/11/2006 16:24:17 To be comepletely honest, CCP used to be 100x better at communication. I remember the days when you could actually mail kieron and get a response back in a timely manner.
Now you have it today, where emails go ignored for months, you can't really post any "ATTN: Devs, I need some help" threads anymore (not that you really should do it all that much in the first place, but sometimes its a last resort).
Or my favorite thing, not being able to get my accounting problems solved because none of the GMs respond to petitions \o/
Yeah, CCP's commmunication is good compared to other companies, but its nowhere near as good as it was at its prime. Blame whatever reasn for this, but its the truth.
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Gone'Postal
Minmatar LuthorCorp Combat Division
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Posted - 2006.11.21 17:09:00 -
[35]
No I'm not too impressed with there level of service.
These forums are a front for that service, almost anything that goes on in game gets writtin down here at some point, and yet it's the worst forum to use, no other forum demands that I log on 10+ times to post something.
People compare WoW to Eve, apart from the game type there 100% diffrent. but for even WoW lack of support I bet there forums work fine.
The man without a face... The company without a clue. |

Reiisha
Frontier Technologies
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Posted - 2006.11.21 17:20:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Righteous Fury Edited by: Righteous Fury on 21/11/2006 16:24:17 To be comepletely honest, CCP used to be 100x better at communication. I remember the days when you could actually mail kieron and get a response back in a timely manner.
Now you have it today, where emails go ignored for months, you can't really post any "ATTN: Devs, I need some help" threads anymore (not that you really should do it all that much in the first place, but sometimes its a last resort).
Or my favorite thing, not being able to get my accounting problems solved because none of the GMs respond to petitions \o/
Yeah, CCP's commmunication is good compared to other companies, but its nowhere near as good as it was at its prime. Blame whatever reasn for this, but its the truth.
Back in the day there were 3 times as few players as now, and Kieron was fresh at the job.
Put it into perspective before you start to complain...
EVE History Wiki - Help us fill it!
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Soumk
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Posted - 2006.11.21 17:26:00 -
[37]
They speak very loud and are easy to hear.
I'm happy.
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Vazroth
Gallente Quasar Consortium
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Posted - 2006.11.21 17:29:00 -
[38]
I donÆt post much, but I read a lot. It seems to me that we have it Good here, it could be a lot worse, and it will get worse if people keep complaining about how this sucks or nerf that, or this, if you ***** at someone long enough, they will get tired of it and quit listening to any Valuable input you might have.
I personally think we as a community are given a chance to help direct the flow of EVE, but if you continue to abuse, *****, complain yell gripe etc. we will lose the ability, and the DevÆs will ignore us completely, and it is happening as we speak.. So take a break, kick back, relax, let them do their job, if they screw something up, oh well.. itÆs there game, no one is forcing you to pay, or to play, itÆs your choice!
_____________________________________________ Wind to Thy Wings - Fly Free Fly Safe |

Shadowsword
Gallente COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2006.11.21 17:34:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Gone'Postal
People compare WoW to Eve, apart from the game type there 100% diffrent. but for even WoW lack of support I bet there forums work fine.
Funny that you mention that: The Wow forum disconnect you after a given inactivity time, and it consider writing a post as "inactive time", which mean, in short, that if you try to write a long post, your post get swallowed by a page asking you to reconnect and you're boned.
Eve's forum swallowing posts is more a tecnical issue than a something put on purpose, and I heard Firefox users don't have that problem... ------------------------------------------ Every ship has a base 60-70% resist against the primary damage type of the race that is the least able to vary it's damage types. |

Gone'Postal
Minmatar LuthorCorp Combat Division
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Posted - 2006.11.21 17:38:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Shadowsword
Originally by: Gone'Postal
People compare WoW to Eve, apart from the game type there 100% diffrent. but for even WoW lack of support I bet there forums work fine.
Funny that you mention that: The Wow forum disconnect you after a given inactivity time, and it consider writing a post as "inactive time", which mean, in short, that if you try to write a long post, your post get swallowed by a page asking you to reconnect and you're boned.
Eve's forum swallowing posts is more a tecnical issue than a something put on purpose, and I heard Firefox users don't have that problem...
Ah did not know that, (Never played WoW ) but I do indeed use firefox V2 and have this issue, While I know it's not there on purpose, personaly it's something that should have been fixed by now, but I can understand that Kali gets more effort then a forum issue.
The man without a face... The company without a clue. |
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Freada
Gallente Mackinaw Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.21 17:43:00 -
[41]
To many people have justifiable concerns about the complexity of the kali update, the lack of fixes for the last upgrades problems. The lack of player testing for the new features. The lack of details about the new features. The community response to the "magic BPO conversion" they have remianed silent on and the fact that a great number of people think they should wait until after the first of the year to launch kali.
Given that they seem to be ignoring all of this and pushing full spead ahead what can they really say?
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Lord Darkness
Viziam
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Posted - 2006.11.21 17:44:00 -
[42]
I used to be happy with the level of communication from CCP. But recently it seems they can't keep up with the amount of people that have joined the game.
The biggest 2 things I see as being a problem are:
Stealth nerfs or unnerfs (T1 BPOs being changed to T2, or when POS and parts jumped to 3x the price)
Lack of Bug Statuses, this is paticularly frustrating because there are certain aspects of the game that I can't use, and CCP will not tell me if the issue is being looked into, or if it is what the status is, all I get is check the patch notes (we all know how inclusive they are)
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Locke DieDrake
Human Information Virus
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Posted - 2006.11.21 17:46:00 -
[43]
I'm fairly happy with CCP right now.
I think they could do a better job of getting information about changes out, but at the same time, that information isn't really a good thing to get out all the time.
Especially when it's subject to change. (sniff, 7 missle launchers, RIP)
______________________________________________ Such a heavy burden now to be the one Born to bear and bring to all The details of our ending
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Soporo
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Posted - 2006.11.21 18:00:00 -
[44]
Unreal, just unbelievable.
So everyone is cool with STEALTH nerfing/boosting?
Your fine with the T2 Lottery GANK and what little information we have about the rationalization for it?
Its OK to give rare t1 BPO holders ANOTHER better I win button and nary a word is said in rationalization, or for that matter even to let us know it happened?
I can only assume the fanboys got theirs or are just blind.
This level of communication is NOT good, City of Heroes was much much more professional and upfront than I've seen here. |

Trooper B99
Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.11.21 18:09:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Trooper B99 on 21/11/2006 18:13:29
Originally by: Azerrad InExile Lessons learned: 2) If you want something nerfed, go to Fanfest and complain about it there
It was hilarious sitting beside Seleene when the Hurricane nerf OMFGDIEINFLAMEPLZ! thread started. Was even funnier when Tux came over and read it with us ^^
That said, the level of communication is fine I feel. There was plenty of good info at FF and loads of that was stoating about the various forums for the week afterwards. That and if they are quiet it means they are busy. Or drunk. But maybe busy. Busy being drunk! I mean. . . err. . . . yeah! Considering the amount of info we *have* had in prior devblogs, postings by members of the community and in the variouis resources available not to mention the availabilty to go have a look on SiSi and do some bug checking (hint hint).
Alot of the info is there, you just have to do some legwork to find it. .
Wirykomi Team Racer - COLOSSUS Championships Year 106 PvP Tournament Semi-Finalist - 2006 FanFest |

Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.21 18:11:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Gone'Postal
People compare WoW to Eve, apart from the game type there 100% diffrent. but for even WoW lack of support I bet there forums work fine.
The WoW forums are infamous for being down as much as they're up.
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Vladimir Titov
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2006.11.21 18:20:00 -
[47]
My only issue is with documentation of new features with every patch. Sometimes there are hidden caveats that make for more interesting gameplay. At other times they can just make for expensive mistakes.
I won't go into details, but ever since they introduced ship building arrays I had been looking to them as a way to improve margins on some t2 ships I make (I currently only make about 20-25% on them). I was shocked that these arrays had lower material efficiency, even when CCP had promoted them as being superior to empire stations in every way. This is not an example of a hidden feature, but an expensive mistake which, despite all my previous research on the matter, could not have found out until hundreds of millions had been spent.
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Winterblink
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.11.21 18:38:00 -
[48]
Very eloquently put, thread starter.
In my experience playing MMOs, which I would peg as "considerable" since I play practically every major one that comes out for some amount of time, I would rate CCP's communication with the community very highly.
I base this on several things. Most MMOs have an appointed community communications person, and most if not all of the major communications between the developer and the folks on the forums goes through this person. This takes place usually in the form of semi-regular posts detailing some answers to common questions, that kind of thing.
Rarely is a real developer seen or heard of in the forums directly. Here, it's like they're in the trenches with us, answering questions as much as they can. They're reasonable, and as forthcoming as they can be without giving out information they shouldn't.
We get dev blogs often, and not just from the same one or two guys. A wide spectrum of information is given out that a lot of developers would never release (details on infrastructure, for instance).
We're always encouraged to comment and give feedback on those blogs, and anything in EVE. Nicely formulated discussions are like devnip (a Winterblink-coined term, like catnip but for devs), almost attracting them to chime in with some additional remarks.
They're quick to communicate when there are issues, giving us information on what might be going wrong beyond just "server's down, we're working on it". We get causes, solutions, and everything in between.
All told, the level of communication I've seen from CCP on a regular basis far outweighs ALL that I've ever seen in any other game I've played, combined.
In terms of the Kali expansion, I'm ok with them being a bit secretive or absent. First off, they're probably busy, and if I were there with them right now I'd be the guy running out for pizza and drinks as necessary, maybe giving shoulder-rubs for the ladies. Back pats for the guys, of course... gotta keep it manly. Second, a little mystery never hurt anyone. I'm ok with some details of Kali being held back a while, we'll get the full story soon enough. It's not all coming in one huge patch, but in staged releases.
Anyway that's just my, admittedly long-winded, opinion. :)
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Katril Wolf
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Posted - 2006.11.21 18:47:00 -
[49]
Up till they ran a database script to upgrade rare T1 Cargo Expanders to T2, and all the other stuff that script did, the week before FanFest. Then not providing the eve community 1 friggin post/news/blog commenting on it.
No! CCP at the moment is totally not communicating with the community. And a blog about walking in stations, a feature that is a year+ away, is not communicating. Major release nigh, and a stealth change to BPO's uncommented on for the last few weeks. There should have been a news item at the very least for that BPO change. *sheesh*
Flat out if Kali 1 doesn't appeal to me after it is released I honestly don't think I'll be staying. It was CCP's communications that made me love this game 2 years ago, and brought me back from my mmorpg exile.
*currently ****ed at CCP*
PS. if you ask for my stuff, I'll hire mercs to war dec you. It's going to close friends from the past 2 years if I leave.
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Imode
Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.21 18:50:00 -
[50]
CCP's level of communication is amazingly high compared to other devs for MMO's. Not all of this is constructive communication however. Sometimes, issues are raised and the players beg for dev response only to get some terse nonsensical answer possibly involving beer. Worst case, I see them sometimes become overly sarcastic and respond with anger.
Kali is incredibly important, not just to CCP but to the players as well. To put it nicely, we b!tch because we care and while you guys represent the final word when it comes to making changes, it would be a terrible shame to not listen to the people who play the game day in and day out.
____________________________ Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes |
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kieron

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Posted - 2006.11.21 18:52:00 -
[51]
Apologies for the recent lack of blogs, posts, news items and other information. I'm responsible for maintaining the flow of information from CCP to the community and have not been able to keep up with that responsibility due to both Wrangler and I attending game conventions since the Fanfest. As for the number of Dev blogs, the entire Dev team has been working on the production of the first part of Revelations.
Revelations patch notes and features page will be online and available by the end of the week, communication will be back to normal shortly after the deployment of Revelations next week.
kieron Community Manager, EVE Online |
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Tachy
|
Posted - 2006.11.21 18:58:00 -
[52]
In comparison to other game dev studios: Great. In comparison to what would be sufficient: Far from even being rated okay.
In relation to what has been promised by ccp over and over to prevent attacks vs. some devs taking overhand repeatedly: Way insufficient. Promises do only fill a communication vacuum for a couple of weeks. If the same promises come with each bigger patch, they sound a wee bit hollow. Reading blogs that the communication team is getting wasted badly on each and every con and marketing event while pilots are airing their concerns doesn't help make us feel any better - or heard - or respected. --*=*=*--
The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait | 2006.09.20 |

Galk
Gallente Autumn Tactics
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Posted - 2006.11.21 19:20:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Rod Blaine Well, I used to say CCP dont give out enough info, and they've actually changed that.
The problem now seems to be that they give our wrong info ... And raise expectations that they can't deliver on.
In the real world rod, thats called telling you what they want you to hear... iv'e noticed that it increases when in troubled times.. aka like a few weeks ago when the server was shot and people started on the timecode issue.... half the gd's front page was covered in stickies most of which were posted that night.. by the community guy.
Pretty much why i don't bother reading the dev blogs... it's very rare to non existant that they ever answer burning issues that the community actualy have.
Thats proper communication with the players.. answering those issues... not posting candyland blogs that appeal to the blind converted.
Very nice, yes.
Communication... nope.
______
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Roxanna Kell
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2006.11.21 19:35:00 -
[54]
Originally by: kieron Apologies for the recent lack of blogs, posts, news items and other information. I'm responsible for maintaining the flow of information from CCP to the community and have not been able to keep up with that responsibility due to both Wrangler and I attending game conventions since the Fanfest. As for the number of Dev blogs, the entire Dev team has been working on the production of the first part of Revelations.
Revelations patch notes and features page will be online and available by the end of the week, communication will be back to normal shortly after the deployment of Revelations next week.
don't you have enough money to hire more people? its inevitable that your Staff per members ration remains the same as when the service was GOOD, and when i say good, i mean acceptable.
Quote: "Don't touch the RED butt
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Hakera
Anari Higard
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Posted - 2006.11.21 19:43:00 -
[55]
I think CCP's communication at present is fine in comparison to all the other online games Im interested in or playing.
There are two intrinsic problems with too much communication, the first is having to go back on 'your word'. Players take everything a dev says as gospel and if a dev needs to admit a mistake or change a previously stated reply, ordinarilly all hell breaks loose amongst the masses. God help us, devs are indeed just human (besides Oveur whose has been reclassified due to his blood being replaced by beer). In short, you have to be wary of being drawn into player debates, because like all good players, we all know whats best for eve and everyone elses idea is stupid :) Like in the past, you end up with simple statements being made and only minor discussion.
The second problem is you begin to set standards, players then expect replies on anything that is posted and feel that if they personally address the dev in the header, then a dev is obliged to reply (at least they think that!)
So in summary - a happy medium is needed!
The greatest problem I have seen which is symptomatic of a changing concept in a new feature is failure to communicate such changes to the playerbase. But that is probably because as ever in the world of mmorpgs, nothing is for certain and even if it makes it live, it can change very easily. Until CCP have feature locked something, all we have to go on is the little bits of information said previously which is I guess why people were upset with FW as it was originally slated to be a all encompassing feature but in the not too distant past very quickly it was realised the problems with balancing such a large scale open feature. It is a similar thing for many of the kali features, there arnt exactly user guides on how each feature is meant to work and how it ties into the great circle of eve. That is part of the fun though, figuring that stuff out. We cant be spoonfed all our lives and expect to be consulted at every step of the project cycle.
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Karunel
Nuevos Horizontes O X I D E
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Posted - 2006.11.21 20:18:00 -
[56]
Sometimes I wonder if some people wake up in the morning, sit in their beds and think "What could I whine about in the eve boards".
Honestly, CCP communication is very good. Sometimes I think it could be better (BS tier 3 feedback thread for example), but still, nothing to whine about... 
Originally by: elbenito The problem with large fleet engagements is that the hamsters stop to watch.
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Oveur

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Posted - 2006.11.21 20:32:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Karunel Sometimes I wonder if some people wake up in the morning, sit in their beds and think "What could I whine about in the eve boards".
Honestly, CCP communication is very good. Sometimes I think it could be better (BS tier 3 feedback thread for example), but still, nothing to whine about... 
Interesting point, it's often posted "XX posts and CCP hasn't responded yet". Volume in a thread does not in any way ensure a reply from anyone at CCP, nor does the inclusion of any staff members name.
There are a lot of reasons for not replying to a thread. In general I can always think of more reasons not to respond than respond, but the brutal truth is, the job of our developers is to make EVE better, not to spend 2 hours a day going through the forums. We should always keep that in mind. I'd rather they write a good blog every couple of weeks than answer 5 forum threads. Forum threads disappear, blogs are at least archived.
Senior Producer EVE Online
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.21 20:38:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Oveur
Originally by: Karunel Sometimes I wonder if some people wake up in the morning, sit in their beds and think "What could I whine about in the eve boards".
Honestly, CCP communication is very good. Sometimes I think it could be better (BS tier 3 feedback thread for example), but still, nothing to whine about... 
Interesting point, it's often posted "XX posts and CCP hasn't responded yet". Volume in a thread does not in any way ensure a reply from anyone at CCP, nor does the inclusion of any staff members name.
There are a lot of reasons for not replying to a thread. In general I can always think of more reasons not to respond than respond, but the brutal truth is, the job of our developers is to make EVE better, not to spend 2 hours a day going through the forums. We should always keep that in mind. I'd rather they write a good blog every couple of weeks than answer 5 forum threads. Forum threads disappear, blogs are at least archived.
Its a fair point, but the point does still stand.
While it's understandable that Devs don't want to have to sift through the forums every day, there have been some very important issues as of late, what with the coming Kali, and it would be a very good move to reply.
Not a good move because its in your job descriptions or anything like that- but it'd make alot of people happier. And making us loyal EVE players happy chappies should never be considered a bad thing 
If an important issue is not commented on for a long time, people just get more and more worked up, less and less happy, and the forum flaming nastyness spirals out of all levels of sanity........... -----------------------------------------------
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Tsar Maul
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Posted - 2006.11.21 20:39:00 -
[59]
Will this Wiki require forum posting privileges?
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ProphetGuru
Gallente Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.21 20:41:00 -
[60]
CCP communication is pretty good these days, especially in comparison to how it was 3 years ago. They have come a long way. They are probably better at it then about any company, with maybe cryptic being on par or better.
That being said, the lack of kali forum feedback is rather disappointing, and reminds me of castor.. :(
As the above poster mentioned, (not the drunk dress wearin one ;) )the lack of feedback on the bs discussion thread there borders on rudeness.
[CLS] Bawldeux IV- start posting all kinds of crap about BoB members, insulting their families,friends,anything that will **** them off. |
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Karunel
Nuevos Horizontes O X I D E
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Posted - 2006.11.21 20:43:00 -
[61]
Quote: the brutal truth is, the job of our developers is to make EVE better, not to spend 2 hours a day going through the forums. We should always keep that in mind.
I agree, of course. But it's just human nature, in that specific example a large number of people think "hey, this ship is broken!", and there's pretty much total agreement among the forum posters (miracle). Then the calls for a dev to answer and at least acknowledge that CCP's aware of it begin, and it's a bit of a snowball-rolling-down-the-mountain effect until someone starts screaming "CCP doezn't care!1 man the escape boats!!!11"
Not saying it's fair but that's how it works with us ungrateful fellows. 
Originally by: elbenito The problem with large fleet engagements is that the hamsters stop to watch.
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.21 20:45:00 -
[62]
Originally by: ProphetGuru
As the above poster mentioned, (not the drunk dress wearin one ;) )the lack of feedback on the bs discussion thread there borders on rudeness.
And it feels dirty leaving poor Tux (and occasionally Jiekon) to take all that Kali flak alone, without any proper explanations coming from the upper echelons.
Oveur mentions that Dev Blogs are far preferable to Dev Forum Whorage- does that mean we can have a Dev blog to talk about Kali balacing?
Because otherwise thats not Dev Blogs > forums, its neither. -----------------------------------------------
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Galk
Gallente Autumn Tactics
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Posted - 2006.11.21 20:48:00 -
[63]
So can we have a good BLOG the timecode issue then please?
Strikes me as rather odd despite numerious posts over the last year voicing cocern on the subject, you have chosen to stay silence... no blogs, no replies.
That issue being ofcourse that people are abusing the situation (as pointed out by your pr guy) in the only offical statement ever given on the subject.
Presumptions on that subject/abuse have been rife for over a year now.
Can we have a blog explaining the situation?
Or indeed if you feel there is nothing worth talking about in a blog, confirm it to us please.
2 minute reply... all it takes, or a blog you can mull over for a few weeks.
Thankyou. ______
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Karunel
Nuevos Horizontes O X I D E
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Posted - 2006.11.21 20:50:00 -
[64]
It's funny how a thread complaining about a lack of dev responses to threads is going to turn into a mob swarming good ole' enn with questions until he decides not to bother answering.
Oh the irony. 
Originally by: elbenito The problem with large fleet engagements is that the hamsters stop to watch.
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Burakus
Panzershrek Blood Raiders Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.21 20:50:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Risien Drogonne In my experience, CCP talks to its playerbase FAR more than the devs of any other game. Take WoW, for instance. While their forum mods might talk to you and their community reps, the actual devs are sighted maybe once every six months.
Red Orchestra: Ostfront.
They make the game as realistic as possible while doing what the community wants- they bring back maps (remake them for the new engine) from the old mod... And a free booster pack. EA would have you paying $20 bucks for something like that... All this for a game that started costing $25. Excellent dev team.
CCP is pretty high up there- but I wish their nerf/boost responses were faster. Instead they wait 6 months for the next huge patch, and create a bunch more imbalances in the process. Still, though, great dev team. ______________ I once one-volleyed a veldspar asteroid. |

Laendra
|
Posted - 2006.11.21 21:31:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Oveur and then we have the times when we mess up and "stealth nerf" something (like the preparations for all the paths of Invention, resulting in the fix to the Tech I research/agent BPOs, which caused quite a stir)
You know, a simple post by you guys saying "Yes, we are aware that we messed up, we're looking into it", would have worked wonders for morale and stopped the incessant *****ing by your community. Sure, we would have hounded you for what the resolution, if there is one, is going to be....but at least we would have known that you were aware of the issue....which, bottom line, is what the player base really wants to know. ------------------- |

Imode
Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.21 21:44:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Oveur
Originally by: Karunel Sometimes I wonder if some people wake up in the morning, sit in their beds and think "What could I whine about in the eve boards".
Honestly, CCP communication is very good. Sometimes I think it could be better (BS tier 3 feedback thread for example), but still, nothing to whine about... 
Interesting point, it's often posted "XX posts and CCP hasn't responded yet". Volume in a thread does not in any way ensure a reply from anyone at CCP, nor does the inclusion of any staff members name.
There are a lot of reasons for not replying to a thread. In general I can always think of more reasons not to respond than respond, but the brutal truth is, the job of our developers is to make EVE better, not to spend 2 hours a day going through the forums. We should always keep that in mind. I'd rather they write a good blog every couple of weeks than answer 5 forum threads. Forum threads disappear, blogs are at least archived.
The problem is (and I especially see this in the Kali section) you make a thread or a forum section specifically for certain topics and then you tell us to post constructively. Then poof, it appears to go largely unread. Now, you guys claim that even though you don't reply you DO read the threads and I want to believe that, but everything would seem to contradict that fact when you guys come out of left field to make all kinds of ridiculous changes and give no rhyme or reason for them. The Battlecruiser and Battleship threads are prime examples of this. So were the Deimos and Amarr threads in the Ships & modules section. Both are swelling at over 30 pages, the Amarr thread in particular pushing 100, and I have seen neither hide nor hair of any substantial dev response on a topic that is perhaps one of the most essential parts of Kali.
Player Consensus: The Deimos needs a major agility boost. It has fantastic damage output, but handles worst than its tech I counterpart. It wants to be a Gallente version of the Vagabond, but fails miserably. CCP Response: Increase powergrid.
Player Consensus: Amarr is being crippled by the primary use of EM damage and the rise of Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II tanks with high armor compensation skills. CCP Response: Lock thread?
Player Consensus: The Battlecruisers are fairly balanced offensively with the exception of the Myrmidon. CCP Response: Neuter the other Battlecruisers down to the Myrmidon's level.
Player Consensus: 5% shield resist bonus makes the Drake tank overpowered in regards to Heavy Assault Missiles and makes the Ferox's own tanking abilities as a battlecruiser redundant. CCP Response: Leave the shield resistance bonus, break the Drake's offensive capabilities by removing a launcher and the ROF bonus.
Player Consensus: Drake is now broken. It retains only a slight edge over the cheaper Ferox and Caracal with less range of the latter at 10x the price. CCP Response: Nerf the Ferox?
____________________________ Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes |

bunghole1
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Posted - 2006.11.21 22:22:00 -
[68]
" Player Consensus: The Deimos needs a major agility boost. It has fantastic damage output, but handles worst than its tech I counterpart. It wants to be a Gallente version of the Vagabond, but fails miserably. CCP Response: Increase powergrid.
Player Consensus: Amarr is being crippled by the primary use of EM damage and the rise of Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II tanks with high armor compensation skills. CCP Response: Lock thread?
Player Consensus: The Battlecruisers are fairly balanced offensively with the exception of the Myrmidon. CCP Response: Neuter the other Battlecruisers down to the Myrmidon's level.
Player Consensus: 5% shield resist bonus makes the Drake tank overpowered in regards to Heavy Assault Missiles and makes the Ferox's own tanking abilities as a battlecruiser redundant. CCP Response: Leave the shield resistance bonus, break the Drake's offensive capabilities by removing a launcher and the ROF bonus.
Player Consensus: Drake is now broken. It retains only a slight edge over the cheaper Ferox and Caracal with less range of the latter at 10x the price. CCP Response: Nerf the Ferox? "
All good points, I'm sure everyone would like to know why they do the things they do.
Forget about getting a specific response to these questions; the next informative and detailed response to questions like these I see on the forums will be the first.
Why?
I dont know but I can guess:
Your questioning their judgement?
A dev basically stated in this thread that their job is not to respond to us but to improve the game?
Which may mean what I have been saying before: They are gonna do what they are gonna do, community consensus notwithstanding.
IE: Its our game, we know what we are doing, it may seem like TOTAL FREEKIN CHAOS and UTTERLY RANDOM apearing, and MAKES NO SENSE THAT ANYONE HERE CAN SEE but just go read this Fluff every two weeks and be satisfied.
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Katril Wolf
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Posted - 2006.11.21 22:47:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Oveur (like the preparations for all the paths of Invention, resulting in the fix to the Tech I research/agent BPOs, which caused quite a stir)
If you knew this caused quite a stir. One bloody post, like the above statement, in either of the two major threads in the General forum by a dev, or other senior CCP person, would have nipped it in the bud. Now you have people like me who are very ****ed about it and your lack of response.
One simple, "We Know!", response would have stopped the ****ing off of at least me.
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Verus Potestas
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2006.11.21 22:53:00 -
[70]
Honestly, we need more Sharkbait responses.
Greatest PR Dev ever.
I need to dig up some of his finest moments I think 
Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy |
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Zhaine
B e l l u m
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Posted - 2006.11.21 23:17:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
CCP are better than everybody else in the industry at communicating with players, so I would say YES IM HAPPY. 
Qft.
I would say: Perfect? No. Excellent: Hell yes. In terms of communication.
- - - - - - - - - -
"PERGITE DEGUSTATE FORMOSUM BELLUM"
Forward to taste the beautifull war. . . |

ragewind
Caldari VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.21 23:34:00 -
[72]
comunication for the company is very good dev blogs ect, ok there are few post on the forum but your testing when there are ones they userally are nice polite and usefull.
/\ this is a point you might which to remind all employees about its never a good public relations to go blowing up in a thread with a few **** appearing because we don't like a change and express our opinions on it we can say what we feel we are not payed to uphold they good standards of the company
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MOOstradamus
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Posted - 2006.11.22 00:20:00 -
[73]
Edited by: MOOstradamus on 22/11/2006 00:23:02
Originally by: enn After this, we're adding a new form of CSM, an old format of Q&A we had. We used to have these as live chats with a pre-defined group of players from various areas of EVE. The timing was off tho and it would have been far more efficient simply to gather the questions and post them regularly. Well, that's what we're gonna do. Have a big group of players with access to submit questions on certain topics, which change between Q&A and have the posted and archived, like every 2-4 weeks or whatever.
Interesting ..
MOOCIFER Emerald/Alpha Oldtimer |

Major Stormer
Caldari Red Storm Vendetta
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Posted - 2006.11.22 00:21:00 -
[74]
Thanks for the posts guys, and im really looking forward to the Wiki!
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Khandrish
Caldari Dominatus Sidereus
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Posted - 2006.11.22 00:39:00 -
[75]
I'll be honest, I have not read the whole thread, mostly just the first post but I would like to make a couple of points.
I work in the game industry, in a studio with game devs. When it gets to crunch time, like this, they pull 16+ hour days and trust me, you don't want to talk to them when they are that stressed for time and working that hard. However even at crunch time like this good ideas still filter their way to them, find their way onto somes desk ot get brought up in meetings.
There are usually employees dedicated to the community and watching the forums and such. When they see things they jot them down and bring it up to the Dev's when there is a spare moment or at a dedicated team meeting. Usually the person best able to properly comment on these issues and hold a realistic conversation with the playerbase and go into full depth is the developer(s) of that particular area. However if one post is made from that Dev another will HAVE to be made in response to the further burst of forum activity to keep people happy. Then another and another. It can take valuable hours out of a Dev's coding time to write a perfect response to answer everyones questions and they simply do not have that time, as much as they might like to.
I am sure that once Kali1 comes out and the crunch time has been significantly lessened that we will see more responses/blogs/what have you from the ones behind it all. I would not assume, just cause they are too busy coding to read through 20-30 threads 5-10 pages in length, that they are ignoring every bit of feedback players are giving. We just have to hope that the community guys are gathering the feedback/ideas into a presentable format and slipping it to the Dev's whenever they have a chance.
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kieron

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Posted - 2006.11.22 00:48:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Galk So can we have a good BLOG the timecode issue then please?
Strikes me as rather odd despite numerious posts over the last year voicing cocern on the subject, you have chosen to stay silence... no blogs, no replies.
I've posted a number of times regarding the timecode for ISK situation. We are looking at a payment option to work in conjunction with or replace this system. It will require a number of changes, mostly to the backend and payment systems to put in place and Revelations has been the primary focus of late. Unfortunately, I do not have a time frame for implimentation at this point.
Not a blog by a long shot, but an answer none the less. The blog will come later.
kieron Community Manager, EVE Online |
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Takaharu Tsuyoshi
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Posted - 2006.11.22 00:52:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Takaharu Tsuyoshi on 22/11/2006 00:54:11 I am not satisfied, they deliberetly ignore some threads where people just ask for a simple answer. I love the blogs but come on CCP, some things will take 2 min out of your day for a simple answer.
I can understand not addressing some big issues, because it only opens a can of worms, but other issue that have gone on for months and only need a simple yes or no answer at the very least don't get attention. And like the exmaple above they're certainly not hard to find.
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Maximillian Pele
Caldari Jewel Enterprises
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Posted - 2006.11.22 00:59:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Maximillian Pele on 22/11/2006 01:04:09 As EvE is my first MMO game I cannot compare them to other MMO developers.
What CCP does well is communicating in broad terms what is on going in terms of changes being contemplated/made to the game. Hence the Dev Blogs - while obviously short on detail - give the players a good understanding of the broad sweep of where CCP and EvE are headed.
Where CCP falls down badly IMHO is in the "stealth nerf /changes" - .i.e. all the undocumented changes that appear with no warning on TQ.
The worst example of this was the log / jump queues. These appeared with no warning. Then we were told they were a mistake. Then it became obvious that they were a response to the crippling lag and node crashes.
But it left a bad taste: were we deliberately mislead or can such monumental changes really make it into EvE without CCP notifying those responsible for community management?
Today we have the POS guns can now shoot out to 350km change. Is this intended? A bug?
What CCP need is a simple list of changes that aren't part of a major patch like Kali 1. Just type something like.....
21/11/06: POS guns range increased.
Otherwise the players are left guessing. And it is hardly fair on the first few players who discover the "unannounced change".
And fix the forum - please!!!
In times of doubt I ask myself "What would BoB do?", and then do the opposite. |

Ramblin Man
Empyreum
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Posted - 2006.11.22 01:18:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Oveur In general I can always think of more reasons not to respond than respond, but the brutal truth is, the job of our developers is to make EVE better, not to spend 2 hours a day going through the forums. We should always keep that in mind. I'd rather they write a good blog every couple of weeks than answer 5 forum threads. Forum threads disappear, blogs are at least archived.
The problem is, blogs are rarely written on topics that address forum concerns. More often, they're "fluffed up" or "generalized down" to where they don't really answer the initial question/concern at all. This goes for many things... POSs, ship balancing issues, balancing techniques/approaches. Forums: We have X concern about Y component (or bonus, or stat) on Z ship. Resultant Blog: Z ship might be a bit unevenly balanced. We'll look into it.
Right now, as best I can tell, communication between the player base and CCP looks like this: 1) Player -> Petition -> A well-defined, but invisible chain -> CCP -> Player 2) Forums -> Invisible dev/volunteer reading -(?)-> CCP -(?)-> Arbitrary dev-posting / Blogs -> Forums (generalizing that people who use the forums read the blogs and vice versus) 3) Ill-defined (publicly-defined) aggregate information received by CCP -> Game Adjustments -> Players -> New Forum Posts -> Repeat Cycle
There are three problems with the above model: A) There isn't a well-defined, escalating, public path for bringing issues to CCP's attention B) There's isn't a well-defined path to reintroduce dev commentary into ongoing forum discussions (key for procuring useful dialog from the community, instead of listening to them ramble on, down the wrong dark road, in the dead of night, without a torch) C) The "full-circle" of design-change is entirely too long and horribly inefficient.
As you've said, Quote: ... the brutal truth is, the job of our developers is to make EVE better, not to spend 2 hours a day going through the forums. We should always keep that in mind.
Now I wholly agree with that.
However, a properly-designed model could leverage your player base to help you make EVE better. 10,000 monkeys [forum *****s ^_^] and all that jazz.
You're doing it right now, already! How do you decide whether implemented changes worked or not? What did you talk about at fanfest as the driving force behind new features? However, you're not doing it efficiently.
The whole process needs to be overhauled. There's a lot of dead weight bogging down you (the devs) and us (the players) from getting things done.
Furthermore, there are ample resources which are under-tasked. For example, the moderators read the forums already, no? There's a solution to identifying the "important" issues from the unimportant ones right there, which doesn't even require extra work from anyone. If, perchance, it's already set up like this, then there's equal opportunity to grouch at the fact that we didn't know anything about it . LeMonde's, no offense intended , post pretty much identifies everything that's broken in the current system.
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Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Gallente Ixion Defence Systems The Cyrene Initiative
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Posted - 2006.11.22 01:24:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Takaharu Tsuyoshi Edited by: Takaharu Tsuyoshi on 22/11/2006 00:54:11 I am not satisfied, they deliberetly ignore some threads where people just ask for a simple answer. I love the blogs but come on CCP, some things will take 2 min out of your day for a simple answer.
I can understand not addressing some big issues, because it only opens a can of worms, but other issue that have gone on for months and only need a simple yes or no answer at the very least don't get attention. And like the exmaple above they're certainly not hard to find.
Most probably a solution is what you ask and not an answer. And if you get the solution without taking the answer it would not hurt you, i think. Also the facts show that if a dev answers in a thread that thread is clattered with every possible request. Making that thread lose its point.
Truth is that the devs are there to do a job that has nothing to do with posting in forums. They take some time to do it occasionally but it's not a standard procedure.
Not to mention that in many times they have become the target of many rude comments (Tux especially as of late), which is logical to keep not only Tux but every other dev away from posting. They are humans too you know and as it happens to every human the insults do have a negative effect of some sort.
The developing of Kali is a big issue, the depth and length of which i think we fail to realize as players. That alone means a lot of work load. I don't think that they have the courage to go home after work and start checking on the forums to see where their answer is needed. And they should not have to do so.
To finalize and give you an analogy of your example. We were saying right from the start that Myrmidon needs more drone bay and not that many hi-slots. In many threads. IIRC not a dev response in any thread of it.
Yet as i read today Myrmidon took its much needed 25 cubic meters in drone bay, making it able to field 2 waves of medium and one wave of lights (or any combination one likes). Did we get an answer? No Did we get a solution? Yes we did So it's not that they are not aware of the problems players dug out. The solutions is not that easy though as 2 or 3 or 5 clicks. Especially for a model (your example) which is in TQ. To give only answers says nothing, actions do have more weight. I think that patience is a virtue too. Noticing something buggy and taking it public is a good thing. But demanding an immediate solution, disregarding the work needs to be done to fix it, is a little spoiled imho.
------- Nobody can be exactly like me. Even I have trouble doing it. |
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Takaharu Tsuyoshi
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Posted - 2006.11.22 01:29:00 -
[81]
So a dev cannot take 15 seconds of his time to say "Yes, we are aware of the issue, it's on the list" or "No we weren't aware of this we'll look into it" ?
At this point that's all everyone has been asking regarding that particular issue.
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Skyy
Caldari Veni-Vidi-Vici
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Posted - 2006.11.22 01:35:00 -
[82]
The problem isn't that you don't communicate, blog, or contribute... there's atleast one dev a day (likely more) that reply somewhere. The problem is that sometimes huge decisions that affect thousands go unexplained and left to escalate and we all stand by waiting for answers and comments, but nothing makes sense.
It seems to me that when there is an outcry, the best possible solution is to truthfully acknowledge the problems and why changes were made. Only the people behind the scenes know exactly whats going on, and to be quiet doesn't solve anything. Don't ingore and continue to roll thru the day like our opinions are washed under the rug. I think in cases like this, a simple response that we are being heard and/or you are looking at the situation and/or the move you made is justifed or not with reasons stated... well, thats all we ask for.
In relation to the t1 upgrade, not saying a word or informing the change only stirred anger and caused many scams. Common sense would be to try and put the stop to this asap.... not drag it out through the unknown.
======= I hate My Onions Dry Salted. |

Xaroth Brook
Minmatar Doomcraft
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Posted - 2006.11.22 01:37:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Takaharu Tsuyoshi So a dev cannot take 15 seconds of his time to say "Yes, we are aware of the issue, it's on the list" or "No we weren't aware of this we'll look into it" ?
At this point that's all everyone has been asking regarding that particular issue.
would you rather have them spend a minute nodding and waving to every post made (which means that they'll lose an average of.. 3 active developers due to the whinging), or have those 3 spend their hour of 'post-replying' fixing the ****ed bugs? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Xaroth Brook Brainiac of Doomcraft Member of R I S E
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Takaharu Tsuyoshi
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Posted - 2006.11.22 01:41:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Xaroth Brook
Originally by: Takaharu Tsuyoshi So a dev cannot take 15 seconds of his time to say "Yes, we are aware of the issue, it's on the list" or "No we weren't aware of this we'll look into it" ?
At this point that's all everyone has been asking regarding that particular issue.
would you rather have them spend a minute nodding and waving to every post made (which means that they'll lose an average of.. 3 active developers due to the whinging), or have those 3 spend their hour of 'post-replying' fixing the ****ed bugs?
It isn't black and white, i don't claim that they should address every small issue on the forums. Howe'ver one that has been present on page 1 in the game developers forum for 7 months is not something out of the question.
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Flesh Eater
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Posted - 2006.11.22 02:01:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Imode ........Both are swelling at over 30 pages.........
So what? Most of the time a thread has a lot of posts in it, they are only from a small group who keep posting in the same thread. Further more, a large % of posts in a thread are typically disagreeing with the OP anyway... Take a look at this thread for example...titled "Are you happy with CCPs level of communication?" and having 3 pages of replies, at first glance looks like a bunch of people are unhappy....however, if you actually go through the posts, it turns out that quite a few (most?) people posting ARE happy.
Originally by: Imode
Player Consensus: ............
How TF do you know? The number of active forum posters is probably tiny in comparison to the number of active subscribers. There are a lot of complaints (whines) I dont agree with on the forums, but I don't bother to reply...and there are probably many who do the same. On top of this probably a large number of players who don't even read the forums. Did you get the "player's" consensus from them?
The problem is that a lot of immature players feel that the forum is like a big letter written to CCP....instead of a player to player forum (which is mostly is supposed to be).
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Takaharu Tsuyoshi
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Posted - 2006.11.22 02:29:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Takaharu Tsuyoshi on 22/11/2006 02:30:53
Originally by: Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Originally by: Takaharu Tsuyoshi
Originally by: Xaroth Brook
Originally by: Takaharu Tsuyoshi So a dev cannot take 15 seconds of his time to say "Yes, we are aware of the issue, it's on the list" or "No we weren't aware of this we'll look into it" ?
At this point that's all everyone has been asking regarding that particular issue.
would you rather have them spend a minute nodding and waving to every post made (which means that they'll lose an average of.. 3 active developers due to the whinging), or have those 3 spend their hour of 'post-replying' fixing the ****ed bugs?
It isn't black and white, i don't claim that they should address every small issue on the forums. Howe'ver one that has been present on page 1 in the game developers forum for 7 months is not something out of the question.
First of all it's not a 15 second issue. Just to read the whole thing and only that, provided that someone has given you the bookmark to go straight there, takes a lot more.
No usually he has to log in (easy the passwords can be stored on the browser), and start searching the forums until he finds it, read it and answer it. I think that is more than 15 seconds and close to an hour or so. Furthermore the moment he answers the thread will start being attacked by anyone that wants to post a claim to a dev (seeing the gold bar is like the gold fever that predominated the US at the beginning i think).
And furthermore as i told in my previous post it's not that easy to do the change (at least i perceive so). Yet you would like to see the answer and not the solution. If a dev posted there and said ok we are aware of this, it would satisfy you? Even if they did not do anything to fix it ever?
Problem is that we (as players) don't believe that someone from the company is aware of a problem/concern of the player base, unless he posts on that particular thread.
Why does he have to post? How many times we have clicked on a thread just to read it (hell i have numerous threads i don't post, but i read). Why can't a dev do the same?
My point is that this is the game developers forum where bugs and issues come up and get posted. THUS it is not unusual for devs to check these threads, they after all attend to the bugs and issues. It's not considered out of the question for them to read over the issue. Therefore it's also not out of the question to assume some sort of confirmation or response.
The funny thing is the devs will have read it by now, even though i'm sure they have several times before and there still won't be an answer or reply on the subject.
This is communication, giving acknowledgement and responses to player feedback. Bugs and issues of all things. This is why i am not happy with the communication here.
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Laendra
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Posted - 2006.11.22 04:09:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Xaroth Brook
Originally by: Takaharu Tsuyoshi So a dev cannot take 15 seconds of his time to say "Yes, we are aware of the issue, it's on the list" or "No we weren't aware of this we'll look into it" ?
At this point that's all everyone has been asking regarding that particular issue.
would you rather have them spend a minute nodding and waving to every post made (which means that they'll lose an average of.. 3 active developers due to the whinging), or have those 3 spend their hour of 'post-replying' fixing the ****ed bugs?
There is a community liason that works for CCP. He has basically dropped the ball. He should be looking at the concerns of the community, confirming the validity of the concern, notifying the community that the concern has been noted and will be looked at, communicating the concern to CCP, verifying that the concern has been addressed (even if "being addressed" means "sorry, it was a game design decision"), and communicating that resolution to the community. ------------------- |

Alex Tremayne
Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.22 09:21:00 -
[88]
In general CCP's communication with the player base is the best there is. Admittedly that's not a difficult task, but I still think their level of communication is pretty good.
However with regards to Kali testing and development, communication has been poor. We've been asked to test for bugs and balance and many people have raised serious issues relating to balance and usability of several ships and modules, yet have received no response. I understand that the Devs are all busy trying to get Kali ready for deployment and I'm grateful to those who've responded in this thread, but saying that you'll get back to the usual levels of communication after Kali hits is a bit pointless when most of the things we're questioning are part of the Kali release. Surely it's easier to address these problems now, before the release of Kali, when it's perhaps easier to rectify any issues than after Kali hits TQ.
Frankly I'd rather wait another week/month/whatever to get a Kali release worth it's salt rather than one with obvious balance issues and I rather suspect I'm not the only one.
Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort |

Zarch AlDain
Friends of Everyone
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Posted - 2006.11.22 10:33:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Oveur
Originally by: Karunel Sometimes I wonder if some people wake up in the morning, sit in their beds and think "What could I whine about in the eve boards".
Honestly, CCP communication is very good. Sometimes I think it could be better (BS tier 3 feedback thread for example), but still, nothing to whine about... 
Interesting point, it's often posted "XX posts and CCP hasn't responded yet". Volume in a thread does not in any way ensure a reply from anyone at CCP, nor does the inclusion of any staff members name.
There are a lot of reasons for not replying to a thread. In general I can always think of more reasons not to respond than respond, but the brutal truth is, the job of our developers is to make EVE better, not to spend 2 hours a day going through the forums. We should always keep that in mind. I'd rather they write a good blog every couple of weeks than answer 5 forum threads. Forum threads disappear, blogs are at least archived.
I'm probably too late to get this seen, but I wanted to reply on this.
For the most part I am happy with CCP's communication levels - but a few things that have happened recently have really annoyed me.
Mostly kali testing/feedback:
You specifically created a forum and posts for discussion on Kali. Great.
You specifically asked for feedback. Great.
There is a long (mostly civilized) discussion on the new BC and BS, lots of figures and well reasoned arguments. Charts and spreadsheets. Great.
There is a general consensus from the players as to which ones are weak, which need work, etc.
But there is absolutely no response from the devs at all at any point. Not even a 'yes we agree' or a 'we dont want that because...', or 'we are taking that information on board'. Instead after weeks of silence there is a massive swing of the nerf bat, mostly making changes completely different to what had been suggested, and angry posts from the developer when people were upset.
I know you don't all have time to read the forums, no doubt you have a good reason for the changes that were made. But right now it feels like you created those threads to give us a place to waffle in, and then kicked us in the face and ignored them. Have I been wasting my time testing the new ships and participating in the threasd? Right now it really feels like I have.
Zarch AlDain
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Chewan Mesa
Beagle Corp
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Posted - 2006.11.22 12:32:00 -
[90]
Thanks for the replies Oveur and kieron...
On the topic, their communications is very good compared to ANY other mmorpg out there as has been mentioned a lot of times already.
Tbh I quite understand lots of people not being happy about the Devs introducing a kali discussion forum specifically for kali issues, and then thinking the devs dont read it.
The flaw in that is, of course they are reading it, of course they are aware of it, jesus they play the game and spend their whole day fiddling with Kali content and fixes, how can they NOT be aware?
The development of EVE until this point should be enough for us to trust the devs that concerns we have and post are read by them and the best decision is made in the greater picture.
I saw some replies saying "cant they spend the few mins to reply to this at least?", but ahve you thought about how many people ahve different issues that they think are totally worth getting a dev reply that he knows about the issue and is working on it? It's just not viable, and the way they do it is a good one imho.
So give them a break and acknowledge their work instead of whining and whining and whining. Siganture removed due to profanity - Serathu ([email protected]) |
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Skyy
Caldari Veni-Vidi-Vici
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Posted - 2006.11.22 18:41:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Chewan Mesa Tbh I quite understand lots of people not being happy about the Devs introducing a kali discussion forum specifically for kali issues, and then thinking the devs dont read it.
Of course they read it... however, players can discuss among themselves just what is in Kali... but unless the DEVs respond, there's no point to find common grounds... fix bugs... boosts... nerfs... whatever.
Quote: The development of EVE until this point should be enough for us to trust the devs that concerns we have and post are read by them and the best decision is made in the greater picture.
Trusting DEVs is hard when they chose to ignore and let 'stealth nerfs' blow up the community and make scams rampant. They have good communication in other aspects, but they make many mistakes... and isntead of fessing up and taking blame, fixing things, making comments... they chose to ignore these problems such as in several rare past occurances. No only going against what they previously stated, but then not taking the necessary routes to explain it all.
Quote: So give them a break and acknowledge their work instead of whining and whining and whining.
No one is whining... demanding answers because of a serious letdown by CCP is all many are doing. And frankly, they are entitled to that. No one is asking for replies to every nickle and dime... but they nedd to choose their battles. T1 to T2 fiasco was a perfect example of CCP not doing their job. We all make mistakes, its just sad they aren't man enough to own up to it.
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MissileRus
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Posted - 2006.11.22 19:25:00 -
[92]
the devs here would be considered spammers and get perma banned on day 1 if there was a united dev forum that all devs over the world posted on lol!
so cant complain at all... 
--------------------------- 4. i like pizza |

Dumus
Silver Service
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Posted - 2006.11.22 19:53:00 -
[93]
Never mind all that!
When am I going to get my Black modelled tech 2 guns for my Khanid ships? I repeat Its like wearing a tux with brown shoes!! I DEMAND CCP BEND TO MY WHIM.. NOW DANGNABBIT!!
Rabble rabble rabble!!!
-Dumus-
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Dumus
Silver Service
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Posted - 2006.11.22 20:02:00 -
[94]
...and whilst were at it. Why 'o' why CCP haven't you allowed us to strap a tech 2 cruise missiles to the bonnets of the minnie shuttles? Its so obviously what you had in mind on the design of them! I want to be able to organise fleets of suicide shuttle pilots to ram BoB! DO IT NOW, BEND TO MY WILL!!!
Rabble rabble rabble
-Dumus-
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Beringe
Caldari Raptus Regaliter
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Posted - 2006.11.22 20:23:00 -
[95]
Re: OPs question
Yes, very. CCP tell me everything I need to know. ------------------------------------------- "Sarcasm and irony are not to be used by the uninitiated."
--Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles-- |

Evelgrivion
Cohort.
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Posted - 2006.11.22 23:54:00 -
[96]
For the most part I get all the response that I want, save one area.
Features and Ideas is kind of dying for attention from the guys responsible for design suggestions, etc - I can recall two posts in 7 months actually getting direct attention to someone with CCP.
Since its unreasonable to comment on every thread (especially given the number of repeat threads) a sort of response-blog-post-sticky in that section on what the developers think of each concept might be a nice addition; I know I'd love to see what CCP thinks of Interconnected POS Modules 
»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/
Its Cohort. with a C. |

Allen Deckard
Gallente WTB Supplies
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Posted - 2006.11.23 00:46:00 -
[97]
Personally I would rather all testing be done behind closed doors.
Add to that I would rather see all new and changed ingame content be kept complete secrete excluding maybe a very very limited amound of kryptic info.
Why?
Cause I like supprises. :) that and I think it would make the changes very interesting when they came out the game would be in a hugh scramble to figure out what just changed and what needed to be done to counter the change making for great fights, makeing for great market flux.
Eeee I just think it would be fun.
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Chewan Mesa
Beagle Corp
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Posted - 2006.11.23 09:35:00 -
[98]
It's not worth a new thread, hence thanks for the new dev blog tux. Siganture removed due to profanity - Serathu ([email protected]) |
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Tuxford

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Posted - 2006.11.23 10:10:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
CCP are better than everybody else in the industry at communicating with players, so I would say YES IM HAPPY. 
ZOMG thought I wouldn't live to see the day - (just kidding btw)
I do think we're in fairly good contact with the playerbase but I can certainly understand you want more. I've had less and less time to go address the forum as Revelation comes nearer (not to mention more stressed and disgruntled ). The sad part is thought thats when I should be posting the most. _______________ |
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.23 10:18:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Tuxford
Originally by: Jim McGregor
CCP are better than everybody else in the industry at communicating with players, so I would say YES IM HAPPY. 
ZOMG thought I wouldn't live to see the day - (just kidding btw)
I do think we're in fairly good contact with the playerbase but I can certainly understand you want more. I've had less and less time to go address the forum as Revelation comes nearer (not to mention more stressed and disgruntled ). The sad part is thought thats when I should be posting the most.
Yeah well, its easy to understand the pressure you are under, so... we'll just wait for Kali and hope the deployment goes well, and then talk after that about the "issues"... 
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
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Zovriex Ambertrees
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Posted - 2006.11.23 11:47:00 -
[101]
I actually made a commnent in another thread recently about poor communication... since then I've changed my mind aside from one thing.
Since I started in the game I've been concentrating on playing it... going looking for news hasn't been top of my list. When I'm signing in I click on the 'enter game' button at character selection as soon as the toon is displayed. It might be an idea for CCP to send new players an EvE mail pointing out that news of downtime etc is in the right hand panel as well as... 'this corp' did [whatever] in <region>... type of news. Or maybe more emphasis on the browser in the tutorials...
I've had a few petitions... all of which were dealt with in what I considered a fairly good timeframe and the one FUBAR that happened when fixing a petition [the mail wasn't read correctly] was fixed within minutes. Granted I could have done without that... but human error happens. I accept that. There were still a LOT of capitals in the reply when I realised the problem had been made worse... but then it was a completely avoidable screw up. On the whole the game being as good as it is outweighs any errors or communication problems I've had.
I have a moderately short attention span like a lot of others in our info-rich society [and gamers on the whole from what I've seen tend to be of the SAS ilk]... I only just realised that RL server news is in there too [on the right when going through the character choice]. It's not that I don't look for info, more that I chew through it at a fairly high rate and keep moving on to the next thing [there aren't enough hours in the day].
So a standard mail to new players telling them where they can find things might improve the 'bad comms' opinions of newer players. It's a great game. So much so that a lot of people go at it full tilt. It's only now that I've sorted out the learning skills and have worked out a general game plan that I'm starting to slow down and take a look around.
So... not so much bad communication on the part of CCP. More that they should realise a few clearly marked signposts to where the info they are putting out would be helpful. Now that I've absorbed where everything is I'll be better informed... but it took a little while to find it is all.
Hopefully that counts more as constructive and less as criticism... which is how it's intended.
Zov
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JForce
N.W.A Soldiers of the Forgotten Abyss
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Posted - 2007.02.05 03:33:00 -
[102]
I thought it was worth looking back at this a couple of months later. To reiterate a few things again:
- I think everyone acknowledges that CCP are better than any other company at communicating with their players
- This unfortunately leads to them being judged against their own high standards :D
It's funny, but to see the official site, you wouldn't know that Eve is currently the subject of much talk and speculation around the world. The subject of Devs in player corps/alliances, and the possible effects of that, are being vigorously thrashed out on boards around the world.
Throw a few key words into Google and rather than info on how great Eve is, I got back a page full of blog, forum and article links detailing the specific issues, as well as the overall impact on gaming in general. It's a fascinating discussion, regardless of your views.
To get back to communication tho, I for one am a little surprised. Eve is facing some very serious, and possibly future-changing allegations. I understand that there is an investigation underway, but my concerns around the communication are as follows:
- There are several different areas of concern to players resulting from various allegations. Are all of these being investigated? Or just selected ones? If so, which ones? And why are the ones not being looked into excluded?
Bear in mind that whilst I've seen the allegations, I have no more info than the average person as to how genuine it is. I am trying not to draw a conclusion until more is known, but bear in mind that often the process is as important as the conclusion.
On the general communication front, I think I've figured out what "bugs" me. I see lots and lot of issues raised on the forums, and if the poster words them well enough, I take an interest....read a bit more about it, maybe test it myself, and sometimes come to the conclusion that they in fact are correct in their "whinge".
This happens all the time, players are always bringing things up which deserve to be looked at. That's the benefit of having so many people who care, and who percieve CCP to be listening (which they are :))
The problem is, as Kieron has said over and over, that they simply can't (and shouldn't) post in every thread. It would be a big waste of resources to simply have all the devs sitting in the forums all day, just reading and replying with "yeah got that one cheers".
However players don't know that something has been noted. My guess would be, and to be clear this is a number I've pulled out of my ass, that players would bring up 50% of the stuff that needs looking at....bugs and balance issues. Of these tho, how many are ever acknowledged? Until they hit patch notes, you often have no idea that someone has "heard you".
We all know about Soon[tm], and no one but the most unreasonable of players expects everything fixed RIGHT NOW.
But people just like to know whether their issue, however minor, has been seen.
I propose a page of stuff. It's not even a coming soon page, or a bugs page, or a features page.
Just a page of single-sentence issues, and whether you've seen it.
example:
Minmatar carrier bonus needs to be looked at General Amarr balance to be looked at Mobile POS labs access to be looked at etc
Now people who've read the forums a lot will know that Tux is looking at Amarr balance, as he's stated that.
But the others are genuine issues too, and no one knows if CCP even know they're a problem.
I'd also add things that have been looked at, and decided against doing anything about, cause that's cool too.
I hope you get what I'm saying, and it might save a lot of the same threads coming up over and over again?
Please keep this civil, there's no need for flames here |

Kua Burrow
|
Posted - 2007.02.05 14:32:00 -
[103]
Edited by: Kua Burrow on 05/02/2007 14:31:13 I agree with a lot of the points Ramblin man makes: Linkage
If the devs only communicated through the blogs that would be no bad thing. But the problem is these blogs don't often deal with the hardcore issues which concern us all. Also many are about how your testing teams are set up etc. This is going to sound really offensive, but as a gaming fan I don't really care. The content in the blogs isn't going to have mass appeal. If it did, if it dealt with the issues important to us then there's dev->player communication right there. And if you are checking up on all the threads in general discussion then you will see our responses. It's 2-way communication.
I think some people confuse the issue here however. I don't think anyone in their right mind could question CCP's dedication to the game and it's fans. The job do they do is truly awesome. IMO the point being made is this: communication could be a bit better, let us (the devs and the players) help each other achieve that.
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2007.02.05 15:09:00 -
[104]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 05/02/2007 15:06:36 Ah look at this old thread... :)
I still feel ccp is great at communicating. Sure they might not reveal details, and sure there are stuff that still needs to be fixed/changed, but I guess its a question of priorities. They constantly fix stuff, and currently they are doing the Need for Speed thingie.
Did anyone see any complaints about Jita this weekend? I didnt. I saw the complaints about Motsu, but apparently it was caused by Jita and Motsu ending up on the same node by mistake... and when it was fixed, I saw no more comments on it.
I think they are on the right track personally.  --- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune |
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Sharkbait

|
Posted - 2007.02.05 15:19:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 05/02/2007 15:06:36 Ah look at this old thread... :)
I still feel ccp is great at communicating. Sure they might not reveal details, and sure there are stuff that still needs to be fixed/changed, but I guess its a question of priorities. They constantly fix stuff, and currently they are doing the Need for Speed thingie.
Did anyone see any complaints about Jita this weekend? I didnt. I saw the complaints about Motsu, but apparently it was caused by Jita and Motsu ending up on the same node by mistake... and when it was fixed, I saw no more comments on it.
I think they are on the right track personally. 
We have been putting out some server fixes that only address stability and performance. 2 major fixes went out on thursday just gone, which have helped loads with the cluster tbh. on thursday 3 nodes died during startup, 1 concern was that the server fix borked everything and we was racing to find out what the problem was, which turned out to be nothing but in all the haste i missed that fact that the node running jita was 1 of the nodes that died and therefore jita was put on the same node as motsu.
But as regards the performance and stability fixes, we are far from finished and there is currently a lot of time being spent on getting them done and out on to TQ 
|
|
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Oveur

|
Posted - 2007.02.05 15:26:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Kua Burrow Edited by: Kua Burrow on 05/02/2007 14:31:13 I agree with a lot of the points Ramblin man makes: Linkage
If the devs only communicated through the blogs that would be no bad thing. But the problem is these blogs don't often deal with the hardcore issues which concern us all. Also many are about how your testing teams are set up etc. This is going to sound really offensive, but as a gaming fan I don't really care. The content in the blogs isn't going to have mass appeal. If it did, if it dealt with the issues important to us then there's dev->player communication right there. And if you are checking up on all the threads in general discussion then you will see our responses. It's 2-way communication.
I think some people confuse the issue here however. I don't think anyone in their right mind could question CCP's dedication to the game and it's fans. The job do they do is truly awesome. IMO the point being made is this: communication could be a bit better, let us (the devs and the players) help each other achieve that.
Very few CCP staff can blog about "the hardcore issues which concern us all" simply because of the authoritive status blogs have in the community. A designer can talk about it if he's been assigned to it and has some thoughts or conclusions, but other than that it's pretty much only me and TomB that can start speculating wildly about stuff which hasn't been decided.
Regarding the investigation, there will be a conclusion to it published, but it's going to be done when there is a conclusion, not before. This investigation, like others, isn't going to be rushed. And yes, it does take days. We are effectively re-auditing all the player accounts, all the time the account has been played, since he started. But more on that later. As pointed out, the process is sometimes as important as the conclusion.
Ps. I'd like to know what you consider being the "hardcore" issues which aren't covered but concern everyone. I thought performance and stability would be in there, but apparently not hardcore enough.
Senior Producer EVE Online
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Smagd
Encina Technologies Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.05 15:27:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Sharkbait
Originally by: Jim McGregor
I saw the complaints about Motsu, but apparently it was caused by Jita and Motsu ending up on the same node by mistake... and when it was fixed, I saw no more comments on it.
I think they are on the right track personally. 
[...] but in all the haste i missed that fact that the node running jita was 1 of the nodes that died and therefore jita was put on the same node as motsu.
Damn load-balancer uses the same AI as the drones sometimes, eh? I was wondering how that happened. I guess you'll just have to whip it some more till all the broken drone transmitters have fallen out.
Thanks for the feedback, and I'm with Jim on this one.
Family Tahar, of Clan Hadar, of Caravan of Namtz'Aar K'in |

Jim McGregor
|
Posted - 2007.02.05 15:29:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Sharkbait
But as regards the performance and stability fixes, we are far from finished and there is currently a lot of time being spent on getting them done and out on to TQ 
Im sure it will rock. :)
How's it going with the new Vista client btw? As soon as its ready, im going to slap Vista on this machine and try it...
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune |
|

Oveur

|
Posted - 2007.02.05 15:30:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 05/02/2007 15:06:36 Ah look at this old thread... :)
I still feel ccp is great at communicating. Sure they might not reveal details, and sure there are stuff that still needs to be fixed/changed, but I guess its a question of priorities. They constantly fix stuff, and currently they are doing the Need for Speed thingie.
Did anyone see any complaints about Jita this weekend? I didnt. I saw the complaints about Motsu, but apparently it was caused by Jita and Motsu ending up on the same node by mistake... and when it was fixed, I saw no more comments on it.
I think they are on the right track personally. 
Yeah, as pointed out by Sharkbait, recent server hotfixes and the world-shaping done in 1.3 had a good effect on the top systems, which is still improving. We have another batch of world-shaping in 1.4 based on further measurements and a new top 10 loaded solar-systems to work on.
Senior Producer EVE Online
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|

Jim McGregor
|
Posted - 2007.02.05 15:35:00 -
[110]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 05/02/2007 15:31:55
Jim is happy (yes, I can talk like Weirda and Janks too ). --- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune |
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Kruugore
Minmatar Vigilant Justice
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Posted - 2007.02.05 15:44:00 -
[111]
Personally I'm not all that satisfied... but what does it matter ? :)
It hasn't really affect.
Mr. K VIGILANT JUSTICE CEO/FOUNDER |

Kua Burrow
|
Posted - 2007.02.05 16:12:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Oveur
Originally by: Kua Burrow Edited by: Kua Burrow on 05/02/2007 14:31:13 I agree with a lot of the points Ramblin man makes: Linkage
If the devs only communicated through the blogs that would be no bad thing. But the problem is these blogs don't often deal with the hardcore issues which concern us all. Also many are about how your testing teams are set up etc. This is going to sound really offensive, but as a gaming fan I don't really care. The content in the blogs isn't going to have mass appeal. If it did, if it dealt with the issues important to us then there's dev->player communication right there. And if you are checking up on all the threads in general discussion then you will see our responses. It's 2-way communication.
I think some people confuse the issue here however. I don't think anyone in their right mind could question CCP's dedication to the game and it's fans. The job do they do is truly awesome. IMO the point being made is this: communication could be a bit better, let us (the devs and the players) help each other achieve that.
Very few CCP staff can blog about "the hardcore issues which concern us all" simply because of the authoritive status blogs have in the community. A designer can talk about it if he's been assigned to it and has some thoughts or conclusions, but other than that it's pretty much only me and TomB that can start speculating wildly about stuff which hasn't been decided.
Regarding the investigation, there will be a conclusion to it published, but it's going to be done when there is a conclusion, not before. This investigation, like others, isn't going to be rushed. And yes, it does take days. We are effectively re-auditing all the player accounts, all the time the account has been played, since he started. But more on that later. As pointed out, the process is sometimes as important as the conclusion.
Ps. I'd like to know what you consider being the "hardcore" issues which aren't covered but concern everyone. I thought performance and stability would be in there, but apparently not hardcore enough.
I see I've easily met my match here. I'm going to train up my debating muscles before I respond, otherwise I could do myself some permanent damage .
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Cipher7
Acme Technologies Incorporated Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2007.02.05 16:17:00 -
[113]
Edited by: Cipher7 on 05/02/2007 16:19:07 We get BoB posts in almost every thread, how much more Dev communication do you want?
I'm kidding of course.
And why the heck did you necro this thread?
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Sadao
Minmatar Delictum 23216
|
Posted - 2007.02.05 16:38:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Oveur
Regarding the investigation, there will be a conclusion to it published, but it's going to be done when there is a conclusion, not before. This investigation, like others, isn't going to be rushed. And yes, it does take days. We are effectively re-auditing all the player accounts, all the time the account has been played, since he started. But more on that later. As pointed out, the process is sometimes as important as the conclusion.
That's very nice to hear Oveur. Thank you for taking the tiem to post it. Sometimes all it needs is a "hey guys don't worry were on it still. We understand your concerns" and reasonable people like me have our patience quenched. I know all you said was pretty much what kieron already said but when you have a few days and nothing at all, the tin foil hats get put back on Could I suggest that just a locked sticky on General forum wouldn't go amiss labeled something like "Dooods we care" where you can state the above quote and give us ant updates to keep everyone calm?
*snip* - No nudity in your sig please - Ductoris Nova Z edited the sig it is now booby free |

Sgt Napalm
Synergy Evolved Serenity Fallen
|
Posted - 2007.02.05 17:25:00 -
[115]
I'm all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that Tuxford wrote in this thread. 
Yes, some communication aspects need to be worked on and I have an idea. A current events threads in the "EVE Information Portal" area. This thread would have offical dev responses to current issues. kieron (bless his soul) would mend to that thread like a little child. The other developers would continue to post as normal. The format would be simple by just using quotes. For example.
=============================== Issue: CTRL+Q Subverting PvP System (Link to thread)
Originally by: NoobBait
Zomg people are CTRL+Q'ing and I don't like it blah blah blah...
Originally by: Dev1
We are looking into it, yes we know of the issue.
=============================== Issue: Dev's Accused of Hacking (Link to thread)
Originally by: AltNoob
I demand a offical response blah blah blah...
Originally by: Dev32
We are looking into it, yes we know of the issue. Expect a offical response soon.
===============================
Well, I tried, that's my great idea! 
Retired [ISSN]
[Video] Skool of Harpy - Da Blarpy |

Soporo
|
Posted - 2007.02.05 18:36:00 -
[116]
"Happy with CCP's level of communication?"
No.
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MuthaTrucka
Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.02.05 20:49:00 -
[117]
If by Communication you mean useless Fluff and things that may see the light of day then Yes I am satisfied. On the other hand if you mean things that are pertinent and things that are/will be obfuscated then no I am not satisfied.
--------------- Don't Call me a Carebear, I don't really care about much at all.
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Sinlare
Gallente Sinlare Auditorium
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Posted - 2007.02.05 20:57:00 -
[118]
Originally by: MuthaTrucka If by Communication you mean useless Fluff and things that may see the light of day then Yes I am satisfied. On the other hand if you mean things that are pertinent and things that are/will be obfuscated then no I am not satisfied.
Ah yes, your overall uselessness never seizes to amaze me. |

Marcusi
Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.02.07 17:34:00 -
[119]
Documentation over Communication
Eve has seriously evolved from when the original documentation was written and the current documentation is dated, incomplete, and often wrong. Heck, the Item Database on this site should have been updated either before or on Nov 28 with the release of Revelations. But instead it's almost two and a half months later and it's still not updated. And that's stuff that's easily pulled from the database. Things like POS operation, corp management, invention, etc are just ridiculous.
Instead of proper documentation, we're left to comb through dev blogs which are often more suggestive of changes than absolute information, forum posts by players that are discovering undocumented game mechanics, and very time intensive and potentially expensive trial and error testing in-game.
Add to this the incredible volume of bugs that make it nearly impossible for even GMs to agree on how something is supposed to work, and we end up with situations like just happened where a friend and longtime player quit in frustration because an undocumented "feature" caused him to lose a T2 BPO and the GMs couldn't even agree if it was a bug or not.
A wiki won't necessarily solve this unless it's a highly managed official and complete source of documentation rather than an ad-hoc "I just found this, maybe it's right, I'll add it to the wiki and if the overworked devs happen to notice it they might make corrections" repository.
I appreciate the communication through the dev blogs and forum. But they should be secondary to correct and reliable documentation of how the game works. ___________________________
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Kweel Nakashyn
Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.07 17:46:00 -
[120]
Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 07/02/2007 17:43:45 @OP : OF COURSE
You have here a studio that : - try to explain what are their choices, gameplay-wise - try to have a discussion about it - try to update the most they can what they say to their public - enjoy the game and plays it with us (if only your Alliance / corporation speaks english but hey, take an english book) - try to take community's best ideas to put in their game - (for me) are in phase with my idea of the future / what is a good scifi game
Actually CCP is one of the few studio that speaks really to their public. They not only tell thing, they speak to us. That mean there's an exchange, it's rare.
Now, as being an engineer in informatics for myself, I understand what are the problems they can bump into, so as long as I'm patient enough to enjoy 10% of the total gameplay I can play with, I'm happy. There's time to enjoy things when they'll be ready after. -----
History is made by whinners |
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Prydeless
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.07 18:43:00 -
[121]
Im not happy with them just because the fact that thisthread is getting no attention other than kieron making a post as the op that basically says nothing....
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TitusFlamininus
Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.02.07 18:47:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Marcusi Documentation over Communication
Eve has seriously evolved from when the original documentation was written and the current documentation is dated, incomplete, and often wrong. Heck, the Item Database on this site should have been updated either before or on Nov 28 with the release of Revelations. But instead it's almost two and a half months later and it's still not updated. And that's stuff that's easily pulled from the database. Things like POS operation, corp management, invention, etc are just ridiculous.
Instead of proper documentation, we're left to comb through dev blogs which are often more suggestive of changes than absolute information, forum posts by players that are discovering undocumented game mechanics, and very time intensive and potentially expensive trial and error testing in-game.
Add to this the incredible volume of bugs that make it nearly impossible for even GMs to agree on how something is supposed to work, and we end up with situations like just happened where a friend and longtime player quit in frustration because an undocumented "feature" caused him to lose a T2 BPO and the GMs couldn't even agree if it was a bug or not.
A wiki won't necessarily solve this unless it's a highly managed official and complete source of documentation rather than an ad-hoc "I just found this, maybe it's right, I'll add it to the wiki and if the overworked devs happen to notice it they might make corrections" repository.
I appreciate the communication through the dev blogs and forum. But they should be secondary to correct and reliable documentation of how the game works.
Absolutely signed.
EVE is by far the worst ever documented Game I have seen. Hell, it is worse than any professional software that I have seen to date. It is really not the job of the player community to provide documentation to this game. I would really second a CCP managed Wiki for this. It would also help your GMs immensely to know what works, what doesn't and what is fixed.
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Hektor Ramirez
Outer Ring Tourist Information Center
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Posted - 2007.02.07 19:00:00 -
[123]
How shall I put this? In a game, where specialising in a race or ship means a huge time commitment without easily predictable results, answers like "amarr will get some oomph" or "we'll look into stealthbombers maybe probably soon (tm) at some point" aren't exactly helpful.
Still, I think they're at least trying to get some questions answered, even if it appears that the probability of a mod/dev making an appearance in a "LOL LOOK CCP I'VE MADE A FEDO OUT OF PAPER MACHE [PICS INSIDE]" thread is substantially higher than in a well written post with a reasonable suggestion and 8 pages of people agreeing.
Anyway, playing mmorpgs means adapting a work-with-what-you're-given attitude and a high frustration tolerance so whatever  -
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Swift Wind
6rasshopper Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.02.07 21:02:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Sadao
Originally by: Oveur
Regarding the investigation, there will be a conclusion to it published, but it's going to be done when there is a conclusion, not before. This investigation, like others, isn't going to be rushed. And yes, it does take days. We are effectively re-auditing all the player accounts, all the time the account has been played, since he started. But more on that later. As pointed out, the process is sometimes as important as the conclusion.
That's very nice to hear Oveur. Thank you for taking the tiem to post it. Sometimes all it needs is a "hey guys don't worry were on it still. We understand your concerns" and reasonable people like me have our patience quenched. I know all you said was pretty much what kieron already said but when you have a few days and nothing at all, the tin foil hats get put back on Could I suggest that just a locked sticky on General forum wouldn't go amiss labeled something like "Dooods we care" where you can state the above quote and give us ant updates to keep everyone calm?
/signed - thanks Oveur...
Quote: Fix drones too. YouÆve replaced the petulant two-year old with an emo-teen.
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Swift Wind
6rasshopper Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.07 21:05:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn
Actually CCP is one of the few studio that speaks really to their public. They not only tell thing, they speak to us. That mean there's an exchange, it's rare.
Very rare... try getting EA to listen to you, about anything. :)
Quote: Fix drones too. YouÆve replaced the petulant two-year old with an emo-teen.
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Halkin
Locus Solus
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Posted - 2007.02.07 21:53:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Prydeless Im not happy with them just because the fact that thisthread is getting no attention other than kieron making a post as the op that basically says nothing....
no one gives a rats ass what you think, exept maybe you (and xirt when you start crowing about the darklord).
what do you want them to do post an update every 20 mins, half hour, hour? give them time to get the results of their investigation, unless of course you want a half baked ill concluded one...
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Prydeless
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.07 23:49:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Halkin
Originally by: Prydeless Im not happy with them just because the fact that thisthread is getting no attention other than kieron making a post as the op that basically says nothing....
no one gives a rats ass what you think, exept maybe you (and xirt when you start crowing about the darklord).
what do you want them to do post an update every 20 mins, half hour, hour? give them time to get the results of their investigation, unless of course you want a half baked ill concluded one...
Hardy har har.... If you missed the post they did give a half baked ill concluded one, and then started an internet forum riot and finally after 20+ pages of posts decided that they made a mistake and now we are waiting on further results...
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Rhaegar Targarin
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.02.07 23:58:00 -
[128]
Edited by: Rhaegar Targarin on 08/02/2007 00:02:47
Originally by: LeMonde Don't forget that while we may not be commenting/posting, we're still reading 
I think I can say with good certainty that just about every thread that hits general discussion is read by a CCP employee, many of them even get circulated and the points in them discussed within departments of the company.
So while you may not get a gold bar on your thread, that doesn't mean we haven't seen it.
I'd appreciate knowing how the Developers feel about topics we debate on the forums. I'd always find a Developers thoughts on any given topic useful as a tool for debate. It is hard to develop a convincing arguement when you do not know the other persons mind-set or objections to a given point of debate. When we ***** and moan at each other on these here forums, we don't do it for each other, we do it for you. I personally could care less what any other player thinks or feels and have no reason to argue with them about things as they can not change a damn thing. It is you we are actually talking to while we argue with each other.
So please, feel free to comment, as much as you will, we really would welcome even the shortest (yet informative and insightful) responses. It would probably end up making the forums a much nicer place to spend our time while sitting at a boring gate camp during another five hour shift. 
Rhaegar Targarin - Minmatar Combat Pilot |

jeffb
|
Posted - 2007.02.08 00:18:00 -
[129]
Edited by: jeffb on 08/02/2007 00:14:26 "Happy with CCP's level of communication?"
No. So far its been ban the whistleblower and hope everyone forgets about all the issues raised.
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Nira Li
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.08 00:20:00 -
[130]
If you take time and actully read what they say and wait a few days/weeks then their comunication is pretty good.
But if you expect them to answer everything in 24h you will get dissapointed.
You Will Cry My Name
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Abiel Mordecai
Gallente Wings of Redemption
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Posted - 2007.02.08 02:28:00 -
[131]
I'd just like to say I think that CCP are great! They're not the perfect game developers, but hey, who is? They actually tell us what they are thinking well in advance, and I'm sure they take notice of at least some of our responses to the proposals. They openly ask for community ideas, and ask what we would like to see in the game. Also, they are great because they made such a great game. I played Star Wars Galaxies before Eve, and I can honestly say that the Eve dev team are a million times better than the idiots in charge of Galaxies (RIP).
CCP's communication could be a litlle better, yes, but I'm prepared to admit that sometimes we expect too much of them. I do know that they are constantly trying to improve the game and I'd rather they spend more time doing that than replying to every forum whiner who hates salvaging rates or warp stabs or the research lottery.
Having said all that though, CCP do have a habit of going mysteriously quiet over key issues. I don't know why they do it but I know a LOT of people who would like certain questions answered (like when my drones will finally do what I tell them 100% of the time!). And also, there's this latest BoB-Dev-Cheating-related scandal which is leaking its way onto every major gaming/news site on the web which we're not supposed to talk about anywhere right now until the matter is "resolved" because all the "official" threads have been locked. /sarcasm/ Good 2-way communication with that issue CCP...
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Milesofun
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Posted - 2007.02.11 01:32:00 -
[132]
No, I'm not happy with the current levels of communictaion This whole Dev cheating scandel is a major snafu. We are looking at it so they say
But if you look at Kieron's rerply thread they didn't even know about the cyno net Seem some one in charge of it didn't know how he was going to move a bunch of dreads at a moments notice I feel bad that anyone would fail to look at the third party information to see if it had a thread of truth in it. To bad it was true 
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Helox
Gallente Demonic Retribution Pure.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 01:40:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Milesofun No, I'm not happy with the current levels of communictaion This whole Dev cheating scandel is a major snafu. We are looking at it so they say
But if you look at Kieron's rerply thread they didn't even know about the cyno net Seem some one in charge of it didn't know how he was going to move a bunch of dreads at a moments notice I feel bad that anyone would fail to look at the third party information to see if it had a thread of truth in it. To bad it was true 
I just can't believe they released the information on a friggin friday, and there is no communication bar 2 devblogs and a thread on a forum that noone reads. --
the above is my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect that of the little voices in my head -- READ! |

Dagrin RDM
Caldari The Knights of the New Republic Forces of Freedom
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:04:00 -
[134]
no
Originally by: Seroquel it takes a while to get use to the people in eve. they are a little too... friendly. sorta like the texas chainsaw massacre country folk friendly.
[url="http://www.picoodle |

Aneeda
House Draconis
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:07:00 -
[135]
Currently id rather have less contact with the developers. Marketing and customer service positions can take the undigestible garbage from the IT side of a company and transform it to be palatable to customers. It seems to me that too many decisions about game documentation and game information come directly from the developers.
Id rather a marketing or technical writer/designer step in and say... 'How are we going to make the information about the games direction accessible to our subscribers'.
The fact that i have to go to a developers blog to find out about customer service related issues is unfortunate. There is just a lot of information that i dont need to know about or that I just want summarized. Take for example when they did they last big hardware upgrade... they mentioned that there were '6 new billing servers'. I dont need to know that. Why do you feel thats information that needs to be communicated to me? Tell me that you have resolved performance issues or are working on it or tell me about what features are coming out soon... but dont bog me down with technical excuses or reasons for things that arent going right.
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Dagrin RDM
Caldari The Knights of the New Republic Forces of Freedom
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Posted - 2007.02.11 02:21:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Dagrin RDM
Originally by: Dagrin RDM
Originally by: Azerrad InExile Since kieron is back answering questions:
Why weren't the T2 BPOs in question removed from the game when they were discovered??
I really liked Kieron's answer to this question.... ....oh wait....nvm
Why hasn't this been answered yet?
Just answer this and I'll change my answer to yes.
Originally by: Seroquel it takes a while to get use to the people in eve. they are a little too... friendly. sorta like the texas chainsaw massacre country folk friendly.
[url="http://www.picoodle
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zombu2
New Age Solutions
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Posted - 2007.02.11 04:21:00 -
[137]
Edited by: zombu2 on 11/02/2007 04:19:01 Edited by: zombu2 on 11/02/2007 04:18:37 i dunno the last incident with bob and devs siriously ruined the game for me i m not whining around i m just disappointed that not even a dev can obey the rules of eve not a good example for others :( The low uptime is user related
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Stitcher
Caldari J.I.T. Enterprises Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 04:26:00 -
[138]
To be fair, I see no particular reason to suckle at CCP's info-teat on a permanent basis. I'd much rather they spend the time working on the new features rather than telling us about them.
I keep an eye out for any major news nuggets and official announcements, of course, but if none are forthcoming, it's hardly the end of the world. I can go fire up the inverse flux capacitor on my zealot and go pew-pew, secure in the knowledge that CCP are hard at work crafting the next batch of shiney things for me to play with.
so, in short - yes, I am perfectly satisfied with the level of communication we have with CCP. in fact, I'd say it's outstanding, and the EVE community is actually kept much more in the loop than we really need or deserve. ***
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D'an Y'eal
Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.11 06:15:00 -
[139]
No.
Why is This thread banished to the "Information Portal" Forum? Cause CCP doesn't want to communicate w/ you. They want you to keep playing their game w/ cheating devs and farce investigations (it took them a week to "investigate" something they already "handled" 7 months ago?). CCP has lied to every one of it's customers in the last 72 hours.... The next 72 will determine how much longer I will paying my subscription fees. ----------------- Read This |

MrDisposable
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Posted - 2007.02.11 06:25:00 -
[140]
Originally by: D'an Y'eal No.
Why is This thread banished to the "Information Portal" Forum? Cause CCP doesn't want to communicate w/ you. They want you to keep playing their game w/ cheating devs and farce investigations (it took them a week to "investigate" something they already "handled" 7 months ago?). CCP has lied to every one of it's customers in the last 72 hours.... The next 72 will determine how much longer I will paying my subscription fees.
I agree with you 100%.... but unfortunately I do not have the gristle to post it here so I must relegate to quoting. I am pretty worried about possible "repercussions" if ya get my meaning.
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Doc Extropy
Gallente Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.11 08:56:00 -
[141]
Edited by: Doc Extropy on 11/02/2007 08:52:21
Originally by: MuthaTrucka If by Communication you mean useless Fluff and things that may see the light of day then Yes I am satisfied. On the other hand if you mean things that are pertinent and things that are/will be obfuscated then no I am not satisfied.
/signed
CCP should stop posting happy day marketing blah blah (I'm fed up with it to an extent you can hardly fit into words!) and give out useful information instead.
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Varis
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.11 09:07:00 -
[142]
Originally by: D'an Y'eal No.
Why is This thread banished to the "Information Portal" Forum? Cause CCP doesn't want to communicate w/ you. They want you to keep playing their game w/ cheating devs and farce investigations (it took them a week to "investigate" something they already "handled" 7 months ago?). CCP has lied to every one of it's customers in the last 72 hours.... The next 72 will determine how much longer I will paying my subscription fees.
Umm, cause the info portal is supposed to be the CCP/player communication place? Where you talk about dev blogs etc?
Seems like the perfect place to put it 
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Helox
Gallente Demonic Retribution Pure.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 13:28:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Varis
Originally by: D'an Y'eal No.
Why is This thread banished to the "Information Portal" Forum? Cause CCP doesn't want to communicate w/ you. They want you to keep playing their game w/ cheating devs and farce investigations (it took them a week to "investigate" something they already "handled" 7 months ago?). CCP has lied to every one of it's customers in the last 72 hours.... The next 72 will determine how much longer I will paying my subscription fees.
Umm, cause the info portal is supposed to be the CCP/player communication place? Where you talk about dev blogs etc?
Seems like the perfect place to put it 
Sure, but somehow an information post about keyloggers in macrominingtools (!) gets a sticky in EACH forum, and something like this, what might be one of the biggest scandals in Eve ever, is virtualy unnoticed. Worse, threads containing links to it get locked, and ISD makes all sorts of funny remarks. Well, glad some ppl are amused. --
the above is my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect that of the little voices in my head -- READ! |

VeNT
Minmatar Freelancer Union Unaffiliated
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Posted - 2007.02.11 14:31:00 -
[144]
I WANT MORE DEV CHATS! like in the old days, on IRC! monthly DAMNIT!
-------------------- Selena 001 > has VeNT left system? its gone really quiet! |

Anatolius
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.11 15:06:00 -
[145]
Originally by: TitusFlamininus EVE is by far the worst ever documented Game I have seen. Hell, it is worse than any professional software that I have seen to date. It is really not the job of the player community to provide documentation to this game. I would really second a CCP managed Wiki for this. It would also help your GMs immensely to know what works, what doesn't and what is fixed.
You haven't seen much professional software, have you? But I'd agree. Just the other day, I finally learned of a change that was made to the game aeons ago - when I was away from EVE. And I've been back for around or over a year now. 
I will give CCP this: Every other MMOG sucks ass when it comes to documentation too. I've been through my share of them, and I've yet to not be totally dependent on the community of these games to find out what the hell is going on. But there's really no excuse for it.
Other than that, I'm only irritated at one specific lack of communication; the current grave lack of information about the fact that a dev has done some rather shady things. That of course, should be discussed elsewhere, so I'll simply say: The mechanics (that is, at the very least, the economics through insertion of T2 BPOs that should not have been) of the game we're paying for have been altered through this debacle. This demands more than, "We're investigating. Ah, okay, well, uh, sorry!"
As for the rest, CCP communicates far more than any other MMOG company. Of this, there is no real question. Naturally, that's no reason not to improve communication whenever and whereever possible!
"If God be for us, whom can be against us?" |

Kua
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Posted - 2007.02.11 15:39:00 -
[146]
God no! Not anymore. :(
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KIZERIAN
Caldari SKORPION CORP Endless Horizon
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Posted - 2007.02.13 02:40:00 -
[147]
yes i find it a top class service - im always fully informed with all the latest news and comeing and goings and theese forums are the envy of the free world. Kiz - Towing the party line
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Rshu Jhorlk
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Posted - 2007.02.14 10:16:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Aneeda Currently id rather have less contact with the developers. Marketing and customer service positions can take the undigestible garbage from the IT side of a company and transform it to be palatable to customers. It seems to me that too many decisions about game documentation and game information come directly from the developers.
Id rather a marketing or technical writer/designer step in and say... 'How are we going to make the information about the games direction accessible to our subscribers'.
The fact that i have to go to a developers blog to find out about customer service related issues is unfortunate. There is just a lot of information that i dont need to know about or that I just want summarized. Take for example when they did they last big hardware upgrade... they mentioned that there were '6 new billing servers'. I dont need to know that. Why do you feel thats information that needs to be communicated to me? Tell me that you have resolved performance issues or are working on it or tell me about what features are coming out soon... but dont bog me down with technical excuses or reasons for things that arent going right.
And they say people (in general) are getting smarter.
Thank you, sir, for proving "them" wrong! 
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Par'Gellen
Low Grade Ore
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Posted - 2007.02.14 10:18:00 -
[149]
I'm happy with CCP's level of communication in all aspects EXCEPT bug reports. There really needs to be some way of seeing the ones you submit along with their status. ---
CCP : Save my mousewheel! |

Amira Silvermist
The Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2007.02.14 10:52:00 -
[150]
Better reasoning on the Revelation boards back then would have been better or on the "fix Amarr" threads for that matter... A simple "They are fine because... /We intend to adress..." would have helped alot.
Besides that I think the level is quite good but obviously could be further improved, there never can be enough communication (even if this would delay features).

Amarr racial trait: Nerfbat damage resistance 0% |
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Oro Masut
Gallente Symptom Of The Universe Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.14 12:08:00 -
[151]
Edited by: Oro Masut on 14/02/2007 12:05:12 The people who complain, that the forums are largely ignored by the devs, have most likely never played any other online-game. The devs, as far as i can see, are very communicative in the forums and seem to read them (at least crossread) alot. As many comments from their part on some funny things prove. Remember, the devs do have a fulltime job with running and developing the game. On top of that,i heard rumors about certain devs who actually have a reallife, though a prove is still due.... 
When i came to EVE, i was surprised about the high level of communication between dev-tam and player base. Having played every major (and some minor) MMORPG out there, i can assure you, that you won't find a more intense cooperation between dev-team and players.
WCS gimps your fighting abilty. Make your choice BEFORE you undock. Do not complain about a lost ship ever, if you fit for running and go fighting with it |

Keldon Raven
Minmatar Free Minmatar Science and Industry Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.02.18 00:45:00 -
[152]
I have only one thing to request
I know you move stargates to alter traffic flow and server loads from time to time
Please let the poor players know when you plan to remove gates A simple pre or post patch note in the 'top stories' side bar whould do the trick a treat
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ghosttr
Amarr The Department of Resource Control
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Posted - 2007.02.18 08:54:00 -
[153]
The thing that has bugged me the most is ccp staff responses to forum posts. Often times they will completely ignore controversial threads (like the ones regarding afk cloakers) and will provide us no clarification on their intentions. Its is very upsetting when a person from ccp staff comes through responding to posts, but chooses to completely ignore posts regarding problems that you have been posting for weeks to get resolved.
Looking to join an allaince with 0.0 access where i am allowed to build poses. EVE-Mail me if you have any opportunities. |

hotgirl933
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Posted - 2007.02.18 09:01:00 -
[154]
they address stuff they are wiling to do soemthing about or a completley new angle as said contraversial stuff is often glossed over
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JForce
N.W.A Soldiers of the Forgotten Abyss
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Posted - 2007.02.28 21:41:00 -
[155]
After the patch on Tuesday, a large number (estimates range from 25% - 75%) of corporate hangar arrays in a POS became bugged. Only the first tab was available.
People could not fuel their POS, which meant some would go offline, affecting sovereignty, research, manufacturing, defense, the list goes on.
People could not access modules and ammo, meaning that defense and offense was affected. During Eve War I.
Not a word was heard from CCP on these forums regarding this, despite a 3 page thread.
Are you happy with CCP's level of communication? |

Kenn
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Posted - 2007.03.10 16:30:00 -
[156]
Nira Li writes
If you take time and actully read what they say and wait a few days/weeks then their comunication is pretty good.
But if you expect them to answer everything in 24h you will get dissapointed.
With time tables like that we will never accomplish anything. I read through many forum entries and spotted a lot of good ideas and input which ccp could really use. Yet they don't seem to pick up on them. Instead we get surprised by a system completely from left feild and we wonder what happened. If you look at some of these forums you will find Dev's ASKING us for our input. I know they are busy and ccp seems to be a growing company and they will eventually resolve all these issues but to the guy sitting in his ibis trying to make sense of it all it's frustrating and we want that guy to stick around. I think the forums should be streamlined for better communication where only a few channels are for the Dev's and they choose the topic upon which we can ask questions, comment or otherwise provide input and feedback. They should dedicate at least an hour a day to that channel and respond as long as someone is posting until the issue is no longer relevant. Or put a forum researcher on staff (maybe 2) who does all the forum reading and posting (still requires a bit of streamlining) and they can go to all the Dev's and ask the questions and post answers. This leaves the Dev's to do the work and we get to be heard. This game is loaded with issues and yet it is a great game. That underlines it's enormous potential and we all would hate to see that wasted. Players can be a goldmine for ideas and not taking the time to sift through all of that is to pass up opportunity.

Caldari Rules! Heh Kenn
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