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melsion
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Posted - 2006.11.21 16:26:00 -
[1]
To me a Log off tactic, is consider a log-off tactics when the person logs out to avoid a possible combat related- response from another player.
A log on tactic is the use out of of game communication to coordinate an attack on another player or party without being actually log-on into the game at the same time?
OK there are some clear cases, like 20 people log out , 1 guy stick around as bait and when they attack all 20 log back in or Ctrl+Q just before you hit a bubble.
Now what about the shades of grey?
I am currently engaged in an Empire war, and we are sitting outside of a station where a few of enemy troops are in side. They log off. To my understanding this is a log-off tactic based on my definition above.
Another case I encounter was when we enter the system, now this is after DT to be fair, when we enter a certain system, their accounts log on on the opposite side of our defence line, several times. Granted there is the use of alts, but I would say its a little bit odd 2 to 3 of them would log on at the same time.
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Itoz
Gallente
Shiva
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Posted - 2006.11.21 16:49:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: melsion
To me a Log off tactic, is consider a log-off tactics when the person logs out to avoid a possible combat related- response from another player.
That's about it. I look at it if you use it as a way of avoding direct confrontation once the events have been set in motion. Ok you are in a belt and you see me warp into the system and decide to log I think that's ok. Combat has not been started. I warp into the belt and lock you up and then you decide to log well while it may not be explicitly defined by CCP as cheating it just shows the type of player that they are.
Now if I warp in on you and you manage to get away from me and safespot and log. Well congrats on getting away, or if from a safespot you scan a gate and see 15 ships there and log off and go do something else for an hour, I don't have issues with that.
Just my thoughts, not my Corps or alliance.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.21 17:05:00 -
[3]
I consider logoff and logon tactics to be _ANYTHING_ that involves logging in or out to gain a tactical or strategic advantage.
This includes logging out at a gate, and includes logging off in a 'hostile' system because there's an active response.
Using out of game comms to co-ordinate a login also counts, although the caveat is that it's generally considered acceptable if it's after some kind of forced mass disconnection (e.g. after a node crashes - it's out of game intervention to an out of game problem)
It's officially Not an Exploit, however I still believe this is mostly because it's so very hard to police - the difference between a 'logoff tactic' and 'modem crashed and rebooted' is virtually impossible to detect.
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Lt Hole
Caldari
Tyrell Corp
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.11.21 17:08:00 -
[4]
Ask the Goons or RA.
They are experts.
If you're nervous, smacktalk in local.
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The Chauffeur
Amarr
Ordo Draconis
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Posted - 2006.11.21 17:22:00 -
[5]
so last night i was outside a station in empire space. our corp is at war with someone who was docked. this person undocked and we started firing. as soon as she undocked, my buddy list showed that several of her corp mates suddenly logged on and warped to us. they scrammed and blew away my buddy. i made it out in time.
if this is cheating, can i make a petition?
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PvP kills: 1
PvP deaths: 3
yeah, i suck. |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.21 17:31:00 -
[6]
Originally by: The Chauffeur
so last night i was outside a station in empire space. our corp is at war with someone who was docked. this person undocked and we started firing. as soon as she undocked, my buddy list showed that several of her corp mates suddenly logged on and warped to us. they scrammed and blew away my buddy. i made it out in time.
if this is cheating, can i make a petition?
Sadly it's not an exploit. It's just amazingly lame.
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The Chauffeur
Amarr
Ordo Draconis
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Posted - 2006.11.21 17:36:00 -
[7]
that's too bad. they're pretty annoying. slapping them with a petition would have been fun.
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PvP kills: 1
PvP deaths: 3
yeah, i suck. |
Xendie
Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.21 17:39:00 -
[8]
Originally by: melsion
I am currently engaged in an Empire war, and we are sitting outside of a station where a few of enemy troops are in side. They log off. To my understanding this is a log-off tactic based on my definition above.
empire wars are a very fluid situation with several thousand distraction flying around everywhere around you.
and if they log off inside a station while at war i would consider them dumb.
the station can easily be camped 23/7 effectively keeping the enemy inside until they give up of boredom if you have the manpower to match their numbers all the time that is.
normally people logs off in a station or a safespot because they cant play 23/7.
some people have real life to tend to also you know.
a logon trap is something completely different.
it is by definition a trap, bait or scout sees the target/targets and out of game communications commence with the logged off people at the location to log in wich floods the location with the logged off ppl as they are logging in.
Quote:
Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
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LC Sulla
BGG
Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.21 18:03:00 -
[9]
Someone who logs out while agressed or logs before breaking their cloak after gate jumping is just extremely poor form.
A person who is bottled up in a system (with bubbles and all), is outnumbered 20:1, moves safe spots every few minutes then after a while gets bored and logs off after 1/2 hour or so (or needs go be somewhere else in the 'real world') is not so bad.
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Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.11.22 08:52:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Andrue on 22/11/2006 08:53:01
I'm going to break ranks a little here 
For me it just comes down to whether you have a reasonable expectation of combat because of the way you are playing the game or if you can legitimately claim someone has just picked on you "out of the blue".
Logging off to avoid unexpected combat while minding your own business is cowardly..but for me it's acceptable. The attacker can really screw up someone's game by doing that and I think it's good that they have an out.
Logging off because the fight you picked went the wrong way or because while patrolling your territory you ran into a bigger fleet than you expected or while mining in low-sec a pirate decided to take you out..they are all crappy and you deserve to be named and shamed.
The only borderline case I can think of is logging out to save yourself from a gate camp but then again I don't know if you could do it fast enough to be effective.
--
(Battle hardened industrialist)
[Brackley, UK]
Linux is only free if your time is worthless |
Flitz Farseeker
Gallente
Eve guardians
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Posted - 2006.11.22 09:18:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Andrue
Logging off to avoid unexpected combat while minding your own business is cowardly..but for me it's acceptable. The attacker can really screw up someone's game by doing that and I think it's good that they have an out.
Logging off because the fight you picked went the wrong way or because while patrolling your territory you ran into a bigger fleet than you expected or while mining in low-sec a pirate decided to take you out..they are all crappy and you deserve to be named and shamed.
The only borderline case I can think of is logging out to save yourself from a gate camp but then again I don't know if you could do it fast enough to be effective.
None of these are acceptable. If you get jumped or stumble into a gate camp, you weren't paying attention. If you picked the wrong fight, warp out or go down with all guns blazing.
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Sirial Soulfly
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Posted - 2006.11.22 09:26:00 -
[12]
It is when you have 'Loggerman' written on your forehead.
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Carniflex
Caldari
StarHunt
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Posted - 2006.11.22 09:30:00 -
[13]
Logging off from combat is lame. If you cant handle the situation then you are in wrong place. It is perfectly possible to do things safe way withing game mecaniks - it just takes some effort to do that. Use alt to scout ahead in chokepoints or even better - corpmate.
With that in mind it is ok to log off if you are not in immediate danger of engagement. Like for example in deep safespot. You already got away and nothing your enemy does can catch you if you are paying attention or warping constantly between safespots. So from game mecaniks side logging off inside station or in deep safespot does not change the situation in any way. But as far as bubbles go - if you cant handle them then dont be in 0.0 - logging off in them is just covardly and all self respecting corps kick you for that if you get caught doing it.
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Tarnish Katharr
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.11.22 09:34:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Tarnish Katharr on 22/11/2006 09:34:46
If anyone in my alliance does anything that results in a kill, a pos entering reinforce, even jumping into or out of a system through a gate, its a Login/off tactic. Next to crashing nodes and our patented lag bomb leet hax sploits its the only way to possibly win a fight in 0.0 space.
Serious Answer: I agree with the op's assesment of what logon/off tactics are.
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Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.11.22 11:24:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Flitz Farseeker
Originally by: Andrue
Logging off to avoid unexpected combat while minding your own business is cowardly..but for me it's acceptable. The attacker can really screw up someone's game by doing that and I think it's good that they have an out.
Logging off because the fight you picked went the wrong way or because while patrolling your territory you ran into a bigger fleet than you expected or while mining in low-sec a pirate decided to take you out..they are all crappy and you deserve to be named and shamed.
The only borderline case I can think of is logging out to save yourself from a gate camp but then again I don't know if you could do it fast enough to be effective.
None of these are acceptable. If you get jumped or stumble into a gate camp, you weren't paying attention. If you picked the wrong fight, warp out or go down with all guns blazing.
Well about the only place where you could genuinely be surprised to be attacked would be high-sec so in most cases Concord will deal with it. I also agree that any time you do it it's crappy, despicable and cowardly. I just don't think it's "cheating" or "exploiting". It's a natural reaction for (I suspect) the majority of players and as such stopping it might alienate a lot of people.
--
(Battle hardened industrialist)
[Brackley, UK]
Linux is only free if your time is worthless |
D'Mur Pilru
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Posted - 2006.11.22 11:35:00 -
[16]
I would hereby like to state that I will log off each and every time I jump from 0.5 to low sec, only to be pounded on by 5-10 BS -from the second I decloak- equipped with tech II, whilst one tanks the sentry guns. My playtime is precious, and I don't feel like loosing hours work to ebil piwates that need to bend the rules to get kills.
They bend, I bend...where's the grey area? Huh, Jerry Maguires, show me the grey area.
I have no ALT, and am not afraid to say it!
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Ogdru Jahad
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.11.22 11:51:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Ogdru Jahad on 22/11/2006 11:51:59
I have had endorsements from my ceo and he suggests almost insiste I logout to save my ( insert ships ) what ever it is.
I refuse to.
once you log out it stays with you for ever... its like the leperasy of eve.
his resaoning is. everyone else does it so why not?!
-
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Cosmar
Gallente
Unified Refining Federation
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Posted - 2006.11.22 11:53:00 -
[18]
Log-on tactic:
- setting up a trap by moving a number of ships to a given area then having some log off.
Not-log on tactic:
- being attacked outside of a pre-planed engagement and telling your corpmates to log on into the game and come help (through vent etc..). That's the point of having friends/vent.
- loging on after a log off caused by the battle itself or after DT if the fight takes place around it
Log-off tactic:
- loging off while engaged in combat with the enemy or in reasonable range to a war target.
Not log off tactic:
- loging off while out of combat and out of view of a war target.
People that can't see you on their overview can't really claim a log off tactic just because you don't choose to waste time with their attempts to catch up.
Likewise people that don't have a war with you can't claim a log-off target before they engage because it's ridiculous to claim you should stand around and give random people a chance at having the element of surprise on you.
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Verus Potestas
Caldari
Perkone
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Posted - 2006.11.22 12:18:00 -
[19]
Anything whereby you are logging off not because you don't want to (or can't) play at that time, but to garner an advantage, constitutes a log-on/off tactic.
Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing.
RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy |
Merdaneth
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Posted - 2006.11.22 13:53:00 -
[20]
Definition: Log Off Tactic/Exploit
Any time you voluntarily break the connection to the game for an in-game reason, which results in you gaining an immediate in-game advantage or avoid an immediate in-game disadvantage.
Counterexamples:
1. Logging off because you are insulted by smack in Local
(voluntary: yes, in-game reason: yes, immediate in-game advantage/disadvantage: no)
2. Logging off because your mother demands you come eat dinner.
(voluntary: yes, in-game reason: no, immediate in-game advantage/disadvantage: maybe)
3. Logging off because your computer crashes
(voluntary: no, in-game reason: no, immediate in-game advantage/disadvantage: maybe)
4. Logging off because your the loading of your bookmark folder takes to long
(voluntary: yes, in-game reason: no, immediate in-game advantage/disadvantage: yes)
5. Logging off because the station you are in is camped
(voluntary: yes, in-game reason: yes, immediate in-game advantage/disadvantage: no - the advantage is not immediate, but long-term)
Definition: Log-on Tactic/Exploit:
Any time you establish a connection using in-game knowledge (gathered by whatever means) to gain an immediate in-game advantage or avoid an immediate in-game disadvantage.
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Verus Potestas
Caldari
Perkone
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Posted - 2006.11.22 13:56:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Merdaneth
2. Logging off because your mother demands you come eat dinner.
(voluntary: yes, in-game reason: no, immediate in-game advantage/disadvantage: maybe)
It seems we have very different mothers 
Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing.
RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy |
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