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Carrie-Anne Moss
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
204
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 13:27:51 -
[61] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Why would they **** off their existing customers merely to cater to purely theoretical ones? That would be suicide.
LOL come on DUDE!
This is ccp, they do this atleast twice every 3 months man.
Lol Seriously i know you know that is exactly what they have been doing for quite awhile lately MAN!! |

Anthar Thebess
1087
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 13:28:12 -
[62] - Quote
Giaus Felix wrote:Anthar Thebess wrote:Nes store?!  NES Store isn't pay to win, everything in there is strictly cosmetic or service orientated and offers no ingame advantage to a single character. For example multiple character training offers no ingame advantage because it is only possible to log on one character per account.
I know this. The only thing i got form there is thanathos skin - well i was drunk  5 minutes later i undocked and , omg this skin is so dark, and in the systems i live you almost don't see the difference.
My point is that in order for NES to be profitable source of income - it needs something viable - for people to actually spend cash on it.
Skins are fun, but at some point people will be bored, oh hey next pink ship. From my perspective , CCP needs to change charging for every (new) thing in plexes.
Character transfers New 'underwear' from NES New Skins Alliance tournament etc
This escalates cost of plex to very high levels - and we are not EVE China where booting is not prohibited. Cost of alt accounts raise every day ( plex speculation helps this ).
Capital Remote AID Rebalance
Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
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Captain Awkward
Republic University Minmatar Republic
23
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 13:28:21 -
[63] - Quote
Elenahina wrote:Captain Awkward wrote:In my opinion, CCP does not even want more players into the game atm.
Players: Here CCP take our money. CCP: Nah, we're good. Thanks though. Seriously? That's the kind of scenario you're envisioning?  Please bother to read the rest of my post to see why I made that statement.
Its not like CCP has closed the game for new subscriptions, but they are also not doing a great job at advertising their game to potential new players. At least it seems that way to me.
I only took notice of EvE after Asakai when I read about the battle in a regular news site. I have bin subed ever since with one and later two accounts. Had it not bin for that player driven "advertisement by accident" I would probably still be jumping circles in a WoW auction house instead of playing this awesome internet spaceship game and never wanting to return to WoW ever again. |

Valkin Mordirc
1118
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 13:30:48 -
[64] - Quote
No for F2P because F2P is a very slippery slope to P2W
I don't want to pay for increased skill timers. I don't want to pay cash for Faction Mods.
If this became a thing I would very passionantly protest it tell it happened then quit.
So. Sorry but.
**** your idea. **** Free to play, and **** you.
=D
#DeleteTheWeak
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Aminari Talar
Banananah Something Fishy.
7
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 14:08:02 -
[65] - Quote
Free to play has nothing to do with pay to win. This is a magical thing in your head like unicorns and faries with pixie dust (Well there use to be an alliance we called "pixies" so they are "kinda real").
CCP Would be totally fine if their itemshop had
- Plex - Ships - New Models - Clothing - Alliance space station bling (new models) - Corporation Space station bling (new models) - Pos Bling - Effect bling (Weapons, engines, etc)
These things coupled with a subscription plan that did something like "You can now train two skills at a time on the same single toon per an account" would allow plex to still be valid, and make training awesome.
the subscription part is up for grabs because of the long list of things you can do with it, like "accelerated training rates" similar to that which new players get.
In short, I find anything that is "Time based" or "item shop based" are also totally acceptable (iv seen a few situations where time based systems in RTS are broken) and then you have league of legends which has direct combat related purchases effecting game play, not "pay to win". It is all about how you design it.
Quote: You players should advocate freely and fairly for this system. Just because you have been burnt in the past, does not mean you have WILL be burnt here with an item shop... AND IT TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE AND UNFAIR OF YOU TO SAY THAT CCP HAS THIS INTENTION
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Ellegos1
R. Danneskjold and Sons Repossessions Empyreus
5
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Posted - 2015.06.17 14:08:02 -
[66] - Quote
This thread gave me cancer.
Also, I think the horse is, for all intents and purposes, dead. Remember kids, say no to.... *whispers* free to play
Legos and Friends
RDAS Recruitment Thread
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Commissar Kate
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
404486
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 14:18:24 -
[67] - Quote
Aminari Talar wrote:Free to play has nothing to do with pay to win. This is a magical thing in your head like unicorns and faries with pixie dust (Well there use to be an alliance we called "pixies" so they are "kinda real"). CCP Would be totally fine if their itemshop had - Plex - Ships - New Models - Clothing - Alliance space station bling (new models) - Corporation Space station bling (new models) - Pos Bling - Effect bling (Weapons, engines, etc) These things coupled with a subscription plan that did something like "You can now train two skills at a time on the same single toon per an account" would allow plex to still be valid, and make training awesome. the subscription part is up for grabs because of the long list of things you can do with it, like "accelerated training rates" similar to that which new players get. In short, I find anything that is "Time based" or "item shop based" are also totally acceptable (iv seen a few situations where time based systems in RTS are broken) and then you have league of legends which has direct combat related purchases effecting game play, not "pay to win". It is all about how you design it. Quote: You players should advocate freely and fairly for this system. Just because you have been burnt in the past, does not mean you have WILL be burnt here with an item shop... AND IT TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE AND UNFAIR OF YOU TO SAY THAT CCP HAS THIS INTENTION
Ships in cashshop?
Hell no!
-k8
My Fanclub
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
13454
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 14:20:12 -
[68] - Quote
Aminari Talar wrote:Free to play has nothing to do with pay to win.
Except for how they very often go hand in hand. Take your nonsense somewhere else.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Aminari Talar
Banananah Something Fishy.
7
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 14:20:58 -
[69] - Quote
Actually, There is nothing wrong with it at all. It works perfectly fine in many other games (like league of legends).
If you can provide an example where one hero in league massively destroys all other hero's because its only "Bought" with "real money" i will give up this point and remove it from the list.
other wise its all based on your "experience" getting repeatedly "raped" by someone in some "pay to win game". |

Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
789
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 14:22:44 -
[70] - Quote
Aminari Talar wrote:Free to play has nothing to do with pay to win. This is a magical thing in your head like unicorns and faries with pixie dust (Well there use to be an alliance we called "pixies" so they are "kinda real"). CCP Would be totally fine if their itemshop had - Plex - Ships - New Models - Clothing - Alliance space station bling (new models) - Corporation Space station bling (new models) - Pos Bling - Effect bling (Weapons, engines, etc) These things coupled with a subscription plan that did something like "You can now train two skills at a time on the same single toon per an account" would allow plex to still be valid, and make training awesome. the subscription part is up for grabs because of the long list of things you can do with it, like "accelerated training rates" similar to that which new players get. In short, I find anything that is "Time based" or "item shop based" are also totally acceptable (iv seen a few situations where time based systems in RTS are broken) and then you have league of legends which has direct combat related purchases effecting game play, not "pay to win". It is all about how you design it. Quote: You players should advocate freely and fairly for this system. Just because you have been burnt in the past, does not mean you have WILL be burnt here with an item shop... AND IT TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE AND UNFAIR OF YOU TO SAY THAT CCP HAS THIS INTENTION
terrible rage and such bad ideas, nobody likes the idea so maybe just biomass if the sub is such an issue for you
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Stacy Lone
University of Caille Gallente Federation
90
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 14:24:21 -
[71] - Quote
Making EVE F2p would instantly kill it.
I despise F2P games, and am mostly disappointed when a game that could have good prospects gets announces as F2P.
Making EVE f2P would instantly kill the whole economy and thus make the game pretty much stuoid and not fun. Need Minerals? make yourself a dozen of mining alts and you can fly whatever you want because you can mine it in no time. Los wouldn't matter. ISK wouldn't. We would see an increase in supercapitals and titans, because getting the minerals for them would be stupidly trivial.
In short: the whole game balance would simply collapse.
The only thing that would still matter is skill points. And since CCP would need an income source, selling Sp for $$ wouldn't be a bad idea, making the game P2W.
No thanks. I actually love having to pay a subscription. Paying a subscription ensures that there is an even playing field. I hate F2P games, because they aren't free. You are just paying in another way. If you don't pay money, then you are paying by being the cannon fodder for other players, and if you are paying oney it is likely that you are paying far more then you would for a sub game, and it would also mean that you can get "better" at the game just because you have more $$$ irl. That's all things I don't like.
There is a reason why subscription models are on the rise again and why some other games that have been / are about to be published chose subscriptions instead of F2P / P2W. |

Commissar Kate
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
404486
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 14:25:55 -
[72] - Quote
Aminari Talar wrote:Actually, There is nothing wrong with it at all. It works perfectly fine in many other games (like league of legends).
If you can provide an example where one hero in league massively destroys all other hero's because its only "Bought" with "real money" i will give up this point and remove it from the list.
other wise its all based on your "experience" getting repeatedly "raped" by someone in some "pay to win game".
LoL does not have an ingame economy like EvE has. That's the issue.
LoL is also MOBA not a sandbox MMO. Please stop comparing them.
-k8
My Fanclub
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Shiloh Templeton
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
332
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 14:29:42 -
[73] - Quote
I could see getting to a point where the subscription price is reduced and there is additional CCP revenue from customizations, etc. But I don't want the subscription price to go away.
Think how much it would lower the quality of the average player.
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Pixie Tickle
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 14:34:09 -
[74] - Quote
Commissar Kate wrote:Aminari Talar wrote:Actually, There is nothing wrong with it at all. It works perfectly fine in many other games (like league of legends).
If you can provide an example where one hero in league massively destroys all other hero's because its only "Bought" with "real money" i will give up this point and remove it from the list.
other wise its all based on your "experience" getting repeatedly "raped" by someone in some "pay to win game". LoL does not have an ingame economy like EvE has. That's the issue. LoL is also a MOBA not a sandbox MMO. Please stop comparing them. Let's compare Go with 4-in-a-row while we're at it! It's virtually the same, ya put dots on a field right? |

Samir Duran Xadi
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
23
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 15:06:34 -
[75] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:There is always a place to make free accounts ( to attract new players), but the balance will be hard as hell. Cyno alts, mining alts, R&D alts, production slots all of this must be excluded from those accounts.
CCP dug their own hole all those years trying to squeeze more revenue from their customers by making alts so essential. They get no sympathy from me when it comes to alts. |

Aminari Talar
Banananah Something Fishy.
7
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 15:10:41 -
[76] - Quote
Commissar Kate wrote:Aminari Talar wrote:Actually, There is nothing wrong with it at all. It works perfectly fine in many other games (like league of legends).
If you can provide an example where one hero in league massively destroys all other hero's because its only "Bought" with "real money" i will give up this point and remove it from the list.
other wise its all based on your "experience" getting repeatedly "raped" by someone in some "pay to win game". LoL does not have an ingame economy like EvE has. That's the issue. LoL is also a MOBA not a sandbox MMO. Please stop comparing them.
We are not debating if the game is a moba or has an economy, stop beating around the bush and trying to say that these things have any reflection on the fact that a "item shop" is bad.
Your deflection from the fact that there is many games out there with item shops, trying to hide behind the banner of genre does not prove that item shops are all pay to win, and even if you could prove something like that, that does not make it the case here considering there is "always exceptions to the rule".
your deflection to this is nothing more then a pathetic attempt to invalidate a perfectly rewarding system to both players and studio's a like. |

Pixie Tickle
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 15:18:51 -
[77] - Quote
Aminari Talar wrote:Commissar Kate wrote:Aminari Talar wrote:Actually, There is nothing wrong with it at all. It works perfectly fine in many other games (like league of legends).
If you can provide an example where one hero in league massively destroys all other hero's because its only "Bought" with "real money" i will give up this point and remove it from the list.
other wise its all based on your "experience" getting repeatedly "raped" by someone in some "pay to win game". LoL does not have an ingame economy like EvE has. That's the issue. LoL is also a MOBA not a sandbox MMO. Please stop comparing them. We are not debating if the game is a moba or has an economy, stop beating around the bush and trying to say that these things have any reflection on the fact that a "item shop" is bad. Your deflection from the fact that there is many games out there with item shops, trying to hide behind the banner of genre does not prove that item shops are all pay to win, and even if you could prove something like that, that does not make it the case here considering there is "always exceptions to the rule". your deflection to this is nothing more then a pathetic attempt to invalidate a perfectly rewarding system to both players and studio's a like. Okay so ya come here, post nonsense showing ya don't get the game, post nonsense comparing apples and oranges and keep insulting everyone for not being the same aggressive **** ya are yaself.
Way to go man, I'm gonna report this shithole of a thread. |

Aminari Talar
Banananah Something Fishy.
7
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 15:19:50 -
[78] - Quote
The problem is a lot of you have played games by the korean game makers, or studio's like kixeye, blue bytes etc who have intentionally designed their games to be "coined to win".
No one is advocating for a system anywhere near that.
Adding ships to the item shop, is comparable to league of legends in an identical game to that, as it would only serve to diversity the "meta" mixing up the game play.
Its what we call in game design as cyclical balancing systems. The way it works is identical to that system that is currently in eve.
It works like this
Pilots make build A (which we will call nano-ishtar). Everyone see's that nano ishtars are way better then Build b (which we will call zealot spam).
So everyone follows the meta and swaps to build a (nono ishtar) until someone creates build c (shuttles of doom) in which cases everyone follows and the cylce starts over.
Eve works on this cycle, just like League works on a similar cylce, what we have seen as a constant however is that its generally cruiser class ships that are in this mix. We never see for example, a fleet spam of night hawks, but we may see some overly powerful battleship spam from time to time.
this tells us that command ships are not on par with the other stuff, even though they are excellent at lower levels. This means that in time the meta will probably change to be more balanced when the spam drops and they become more relative to the engagement.
Understanding this helps people like you understand how "new ships from the item shop" fits into the meta of the game. New ships means new content, and new means fresh, and we all love a nice clean fresh feeling. It makes the game feel more like league (in terms of new exciting things every two weeks) as opposed to being "oh its just another ishtar".
There is nothing wrong with this, its extremely good for the game.
The only legit argument placed here is if ccp legit makes these ships more "op" then what ever else, and there is a simple solution to this, just make them equal in stats to hacks but give them new bonus's, Like a hack-ecm hybrid (sorta like a cruiser version of electronic frigates).
This like this would be exciting and refreshing to see in eve and they in no way equate to "Pay to win". |

Commissar Kate
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
404501
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 15:20:33 -
[79] - Quote
So you are perfectly fine with allowing people to buy ships in a cash shop thus bypassing the mining and manufacturing process making these professions meaningless?
-k8
My Fanclub
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Avaelica Kuershin
Paper Cats
171
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 15:20:52 -
[80] - Quote
There is indeed something fishy about this thread... the thought the OP is serious.
And unless those playing free were barred from thrashers and catalysts... well, anyone can see the implication. |

Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
793
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 15:21:17 -
[81] - Quote
Aminari Talar wrote:Commissar Kate wrote:Aminari Talar wrote:Actually, There is nothing wrong with it at all. It works perfectly fine in many other games (like league of legends).
If you can provide an example where one hero in league massively destroys all other hero's because its only "Bought" with "real money" i will give up this point and remove it from the list.
other wise its all based on your "experience" getting repeatedly "raped" by someone in some "pay to win game". LoL does not have an ingame economy like EvE has. That's the issue. LoL is also a MOBA not a sandbox MMO. Please stop comparing them. We are not debating if the game is a moba or has an economy, stop beating around the bush and trying to say that these things have any reflection on the fact that a "item shop" is bad. Your deflection from the fact that there is many games out there with item shops, trying to hide behind the banner of genre does not prove that item shops are all pay to win, and even if you could prove something like that, that does not make it the case here considering there is "always exceptions to the rule". your deflection to this is nothing more then a pathetic attempt to invalidate a perfectly rewarding system to both players and studio's a like.
you clearly do not understand the mechanics and what everyone tells you about how it will not work.
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
|

Stacy Lone
University of Caille Gallente Federation
94
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 15:37:05 -
[82] - Quote
Aminari Talar wrote: We are not debating if the game is a moba or has an economy, stop beating around the bush and trying to say that these things have any reflection on the fact that a "item shop" is bad.
Your deflection from the fact that there is many games out there with item shops, trying to hide behind the banner of genre does not prove that item shops are all pay to win, and even if you could prove something like that, that does not make it the case here considering there is "always exceptions to the rule".
your deflection to this is nothing more then a pathetic attempt to invalidate a perfectly rewarding system to both players and studio's a like.
There is a tremendous difference. The first one being that EVE is a persistent universe instead of unrelated sessions is the first important factor. The second, also very important factor is that withing this game, there is a player driven economy.
Let's really look at the consequences of making EVE truly F2P:
First of all, mineral supply would become virtually unlimited. Need to produce something? Simply make another alt, training him into mining barges "costs" you only 8 days. Even without ISBoxing, you can run 30+ clients manually without problem, when you use retrievers and not covetors. And since you don't need to be "efficient", running rets over covetors will be the better choice since it scales better when using more characters. This would also mean that there is no longer the need to purchase hings from the market, as you can manufacture everything in abundance yourself. You don't even need reasearched BPCs, if your ME isn't that high you simply click once more with all your rets.
There is no way to predict how exatcly the market would react to it, but prices would either drop sigificantly due to a massive over-supply, or they would skyrocket because ISK isn't longer the real driving factor behind the economy.
it would also mean that loss isn't longer relevant. Lost your ship? No problem, you have 10 more. This would also mean that you do not longer need to think about risk vs. reward. You can always take the highest risk, because the loss does not longer concern you.
Small gang PvP would effectively be dead, when you have to assume that someone will drop supers on your 3 cruisers just becaue they can and just because they have 30 clients each running in the background mining them already their next super.
EVE would be very different, and it wuldn#t be any fun anymore. Everyone would just pile into supers and titans as fast as they can, with some ppl still needed for heavy interdictors and maybe some subcaps to clear other subcaps, but you can do that with the drones of your carriers.
The other big difference you seem to not be able to acknowledge (or don't want to) is that multi-boxing in LoL is much harder, if not nigh-impossible, and even if done only affects one game, while in EVE, you can have as many characters as you wish and still profit from it. Want to be flooded with PI? Create 100 accounts, it not really a problem to maintain PI on them with enough cycles.
Need cyno alts? Just train one cyno alt for each solar system in EVE and park him there. Same with hictor alts. If you want to, you can have a hictor alt in every system. Or, if you want to invest in enough time, you can have one super per system logged off. There is no limit as to what you can do. Well, you'd need to organize the accounts properly, but if they all are free, they wouldn't hurt you.
If you don't see that all this would severly screw up this game and basically threw all balance out of the window, you are delusional.
So, in order to limit what people would actually do, you would need to have another wall. And that would be a paywall. Want to train cyno? Pay $5. Want to fly a super? Pay $120. You'd still pay for the game, either by being cannon fodder and not being able to do what others can do in the game, or by buying into all of these areas of the game. But the game wouldn#t be fair anymore, people who invest more would simply be more powerfull. Because otherwise there is not even the slightest chance that there is even some small glimpse of balancing.
So you would only move the paywall from a subscription elsewhere, and all F2P models have shown that F2P games are actually *much* more expensive for people who want to enjoy a game in full. |

Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1997
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 15:41:38 -
[83] - Quote
Never go full Hodor. Ever.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
10135
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 15:44:04 -
[84] - Quote
Omar Alharazaad wrote:Never go full Hodor. Ever. Best five word summary of a full thread in ages
=]|[=
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Paranoid Loyd
5831
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 15:46:39 -
[85] - Quote
5/10 nicely played
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
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Aminari Talar
Banananah Something Fishy.
7
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 16:02:24 -
[86] - Quote
Quote:There is no way to predict how exatcly the market would react to it, but prices would either drop sigificantly due to a massive over-supply, or they would skyrocket because ISK isn't longer the real driving factor behind the economy.
This would only be the case if people were not losing ships, buying them etc, Its something you seem to keep leaving out. You mention more supply, but not more usage, Do you think people will fly around in pods all day?
Don't be single sided, this is generally why we developers dont have conversations on forums like this, because in general people are massively ignorant.
Next,
lets assume what you say is true, for the sake of argument, Another major problem with this position is you do not consider the idea that ccp can fine tune the mining values, to equate for the population differencial.
Do you think that things stay static in this game? that is a delusional position, we adjust when there is a need. There is a full time hired economist handling this games economy (maybe more then one actually).
Dont think CCP is not capable of dealing with such things, and for you to advocate against free to play on this bases WHEN THE GAME IS BUILT WITH A REAL MARKET concepts, Is utterly.... insane... Foolish... Ignorant? i cant really pin it, but its like your arguing a moot point for the sake of your personal / whemsical desire of not being in a game with an item shop because of previous repeated ownage pay to win.
If you and everyone else left this game, eve would still be successful, because of the amount of people that would come back or to this game.
This genre has a HUGE DEMAND... there is no other games out there of note, and eve is the BAR for space sandbox.
I am absolutely sure the population will jump back up to 90-110k like it use to be with such a move. |

Aminari Talar
Banananah Something Fishy.
7
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 16:05:01 -
[87] - Quote
To add on top of this.
How many dam people do you think it will take to crash the market in this way? Serious i want a number. It cannot be 40-50k because we've already seen these levels in the game and no effect was massively noticed.
This means, that we will need AT-LEAST double of that to have any start of a notice of such and effect, and my knowledge and experience tells me its FAR FAR FAR FAR more then that.
It's very simple, More players means more production needs, means more buying, means more buying of ore/minerals, means stable market. Its a cyclical nature. You need to break that cycle to get "1,000,000 everything like on sisi".
So you advocating any number of players coming to this game destroying the economy, is absolutely 100000% Absurd. |

Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1997
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 16:38:34 -
[88] - Quote
what you advocate by including modules and/or ships into your "I buy it mode" is a bypassing of the process of harvesting resources, refining resources, moving resources, processing resources into things, moving things to places, and selling things.
This quite literally, in no uncertain terms, breaks the economy. You are not as smart as you think you are. Your idea is bad, you need to accept it as such, and you need to apologize to the rest of the world for being as bad as you are.
Get better soon.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
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Crest Zah Donartal
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
313
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 16:46:19 -
[89] - Quote
Free To Play, was, is and ever will be be a stupid idea.
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Carrie-Anne Moss
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
205
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 16:54:29 -
[90] - Quote
Lord Of The Rings Online is free to play.
I like Lord Of The Rings |
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