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Pattern Clarc
The Priory
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Posted - 2006.11.27 16:51:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 27/11/2006 16:57:37
I think this is the answer to all blaster issuses...
As damage rigs have a stacking penalty with damage mods
As crystal implants and the resistance bonus of certain ships combined with the new shield and armor rigs.
As there is no eqv damage pirate-implant set (as oppossed to crystal or slaves)
As Nos means, if you can't break his tank in time, you die a slow and evenitable death.
As drone hp has not increased.
As gallente blaster ships have no other decernible advanage over other races (eg, speed, tank, range)
As blasters use cap, have ultra short range, and have a significant fitting requirements on ships with the 2nd lowest pg avalible on average.
As caldari sniper ships gain a damage bonus through there range bonus when using blster ammunition just as they do with rails.
As anyone who has piloted these ships would tell you, kali has broken them.
discuss
Sig removed lacks EVE content, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus |
awwsd
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Posted - 2006.11.27 16:53:00 -
[2]
Forums are bugged for me so i can't post on main.
In about 20 seconds 200 amarr/matarii/caldari are gonna jump this thread
and flame you to death 
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Pattern Clarc
The Priory
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Posted - 2006.11.27 16:57:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: awwsd
Forums are bugged for me so i can't post on main.
In about 20 seconds 200 amarr/matarii/caldari are gonna jump this thread
and flame you to death
bring it.
Sig removed lacks EVE content, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus |
Hein
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:06:00 -
[4]
Make it 10%
And since we are dreaming here, what about a 10% upgrade, to controlled bursts skill?
Man, as I said, we are only dreaming here, the patch will be out tomorrow (probably), and Im not expecting ANY change at our current state... Well, maybe next patch?!? I hope so.
-----------------------------------------------
"It's good to play Caldari Online, isn't it?"
"Pray to GOD, only he can save! Devs cant, and wont do it!!!" |
Kagura Nikon
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:07:00 -
[5]
Just a little bit too much don't you think? What about 6% (total extra 5% when max skill) ?
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murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:11:00 -
[6]
7.5% would be a good bonus.
Because I said so...
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Pattern Clarc
The Priory
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:14:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 27/11/2006 17:16:25
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Just a little bit too much don't you think? What about 6% (total extra 5% when max skill) ?
Thats fair and reasonible.
I was actually thinking of accross the board changing the gallente damage donus, to a rate of fire bonus, for all gallente ships as alpha strike has never been our thing.
this would also lend to mimitar ships switching to damage bonuses on all there gun platforms.
^^
(holy typo's batman)
it's a monday, excuse my spelling.
and yes, english is my only language.
Sig removed lacks EVE content, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus |
Arktaos
Minmatar
The Bratwurst Burglars
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:18:00 -
[8]
up it form 5% to 7.5 % - no way, far too overpowered.
Make it a rof bonus would still make it do too much damage, but offset by the largely increased cap usage by the guns.
Leave them as they are tho, tbh.
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Pattern Clarc
The Priory
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:24:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Arktaos
up it form 5% to 7.5 % - no way, far too overpowered.
Make it a rof bonus would still make it do too much damage, but offset by the largely increased cap usage by the guns.
Leave them as they are tho, tbh.
The ROF would be almost the same (33% increase instead of 37.5%) as a 7.5% damage bonus, and I wouldn't miss the alpha.
Sig removed lacks EVE content, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus |
murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:24:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 27/11/2006 17:16:25
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Just a little bit too much don't you think? What about 6% (total extra 5% when max skill) ?
Thats fair and reasonible.
I was actually thinking of accross the board changing the gallente damage donus, to a rate of fire bonus, for all gallente ships as alpha strike has never been our thing.
this would also lend to mimitar ships switching to damage bonuses on all there gun platforms.
^^
(holy typo's batman)
it's a monday, excuse my spelling.
and yes, english is my only language.
ROF bonus sucks cap even more. Bad bad  Damage bonus gives you more efficient use of cap to damage ratio.
Void was clipped by 6.66% damage in Kali, I think a 7.5% bonus per level would be just fine.
Because I said so...
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Pattern Clarc
The Priory
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:32:00 -
[11]
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 27/11/2006 17:16:25
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Just a little bit too much don't you think? What about 6% (total extra 5% when max skill) ?
Thats fair and reasonible.
I was actually thinking of accross the board changing the gallente damage donus, to a rate of fire bonus, for all gallente ships as alpha strike has never been our thing.
this would also lend to mimitar ships switching to damage bonuses on all there gun platforms.
^^
(holy typo's batman)
it's a monday, excuse my spelling.
and yes, english is my only language.
ROF bonus sucks cap even more. Bad bad Damage bonus gives you more efficient use of cap to damage ratio.
Void was clipped by 6.66% damage in Kali, I think a 7.5% bonus per level would be just fine.
Cap is only a problem because of Nos, the lengths of fights, and the finite supply of charges.
I don't mind paying for extra damage in this way.
Sig removed lacks EVE content, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus |
murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:40:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 27/11/2006 17:16:25
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Just a little bit too much don't you think? What about 6% (total extra 5% when max skill) ?
Thats fair and reasonible.
I was actually thinking of accross the board changing the gallente damage donus, to a rate of fire bonus, for all gallente ships as alpha strike has never been our thing.
this would also lend to mimitar ships switching to damage bonuses on all there gun platforms.
^^
(holy typo's batman)
it's a monday, excuse my spelling.
and yes, english is my only language.
ROF bonus sucks cap even more. Bad bad Damage bonus gives you more efficient use of cap to damage ratio.
Void was clipped by 6.66% damage in Kali, I think a 7.5% bonus per level would be just fine.
Cap is only a problem because of Nos, the lengths of fights, and the finite supply of charges.
I don't mind paying for extra damage in this way.
That's fine, but personally I'd like to see cap use avoided at all costs. When you get into a fight with more than one opponent and they're all nossing you, every little bit helps.
Because I said so...
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Pattern Clarc
The Priory
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:52:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 27/11/2006 16:57:37
I think this is the answer to all blaster issuses...
As damage rigs have a stacking penalty with damage mods
As crystal implants and the resistance bonus of certain ships combined with the new shield and armor rigs.
As there is no eqv damage pirate-implant set (as oppossed to crystal or slaves)
As Nos means, if you can't break his tank in time, you die a slow and evenitable death.
As drone hp has not increased.
As gallente blaster ships have no other decernible advanage over other races (eg, speed, tank, range)
As blasters use cap, have ultra short range, and have a significant fitting requirements on ships with the 2nd lowest pg avalible on average.
As caldari sniper ships gain a damage bonus through there range bonus when using blster ammunition just as they do with rails.
As anyone who has piloted these ships would tell you, kali has broken them.
as an alternative to the damage boost, they could try and fix the points above.
Sig removed lacks EVE content, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus |
Captain Raynor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:54:00 -
[14]
and a pony?
Quote:
Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari
Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship
Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ
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Blind Man
Caldari
Kemono.
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:55:00 -
[15]
no comment
Sig removed.\o/
It's great flying Amarr, ain't it? |
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.27 18:25:00 -
[16]
While we are at it, we might as well change the 10% cap use bonus for laser ships to a 20% cap use bonus then double the optimal on the pulse lasers so you can snipe with them again.
A more realistic examination of the issue would be thus.
1. Blasters do not have a damage type problem. Kinetic and Thermal are not overly resisted damage types, they are dead average. No tech 2 ships tank kinetic and thermal more than any other ships tank other damage types. Kinetic and Thermal are not especialy hampered by the 10% armor resistance bonus on ships [one of which is the second lowest armor resist and the second stuck on ships that do not typically armor tank], nor are kin/therm specific hardened ships especialy typical in your everday enoucnters.
2. Blasters already do more DPS than any other weapon before ship bonuses are considered into the fold. Increasing the damage bonus to 7.5% would increase their damage and cap use advantage over lasers even more, and negate the falloff problem for damage in many instances against autocannons.
3. Blasters are not especialy hard to fit. They are hard to fit compared to autocannons, but that is an issue with autocannons being too low and not blasters being especialy high. They are not so compared to lasers, where blasters suffer much less in downsizing than lasers do and still have a considerable fitting advantage on many ship classes[this varies depending on the size of the guns and the size of the ships], especialy when compared to their damage.
4. If the prodigious DPS of blaster ships cannont be considered an advantage over other races, then I do not know what can. As well, they have several other advantages over other races, including the damage/cap use advantage over amarr, the cap use/second advantage over amarr, the tracking advantage over all other races, their fallof advantage over amarr, their ammo use advantage over Minmatar, and their clip size advantage over Minmatar. Simply because an advantage is not over all other races does not mean that an advantage does not exist. Amarr have range and ammo size, Minmatar have falloff and cap use, and Blasters have DPS and tracking.
5. Damage rigs having a stacking penalty with damage mods is an advantage for high powergrid using weapons, as low powergrid using weapons benefit most from rigs, any reduction in the amount of bonus damage rigs give is a bonus that lower powergrid weapons do not have over higher powergrid weapons.
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murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 18:52:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Goumindong
While we are at it, we might as well change the 10% cap use bonus for laser ships to a 20% cap use bonus then double the optimal on the pulse lasers so you can snipe with them again.
A more realistic examination of the issue would be thus.
1. Blasters do not have a damage type problem. Kinetic and Thermal are not overly resisted damage types, they are dead average. No tech 2 ships tank kinetic and thermal more than any other ships tank other damage types. Kinetic and Thermal are not especialy hampered by the 10% armor resistance bonus on ships [one of which is the second lowest armor resist and the second stuck on ships that do not typically armor tank], nor are kin/therm specific hardened ships especialy typical in your everday enoucnters.
2. Blasters already do more DPS than any other weapon before ship bonuses are considered into the fold. Increasing the damage bonus to 7.5% would increase their damage and cap use advantage over lasers even more, and negate the falloff problem for damage in many instances against autocannons.
3. Blasters are not especialy hard to fit. They are hard to fit compared to autocannons, but that is an issue with autocannons being too low and not blasters being especialy high. They are not so compared to lasers, where blasters suffer much less in downsizing than lasers do and still have a considerable fitting advantage on many ship classes[this varies depending on the size of the guns and the size of the ships], especialy when compared to their damage.
4. If the prodigious DPS of blaster ships cannont be considered an advantage over other races, then I do not know what can. As well, they have several other advantages over other races, including the damage/cap use advantage over amarr, the cap use/second advantage over amarr, the tracking advantage over all other races, their fallof advantage over amarr, their ammo use advantage over Minmatar, and their clip size advantage over Minmatar. Simply because an advantage is not over all other races does not mean that an advantage does not exist. Amarr have range and ammo size, Minmatar have falloff and cap use, and Blasters have DPS and tracking.
5. Damage rigs having a stacking penalty with damage mods is an advantage for high powergrid using weapons, as low powergrid using weapons benefit most from rigs, any reduction in the amount of bonus damage rigs give is a bonus that lower powergrid weapons do not have over higher powergrid weapons.
1. Kinetic and thermal damage types are tanked to hell and back. HACs and Command ships are also heavily hardened vs. Kin/Therm damage types. I know, I tank them.
2. Blasters doing "more" is correct. They do slightly more than the other weapons, now that the ammo nerf is in place. The difference is not great enough to make up for all of their other drawbacks, especially with all of the new changes in Kali.
3. Blasters are extremely hard to fit to their respective ships. I don't see any Deimos' flying around with a full rack of Neutron IIs and a decent (or any) tank. Same thing applies for all other blaster ships.
4. Blaster damage can no longer be thought of as "prodigious" in light of the Kali changes both to ammo and HP. If the Kali changes aren't a huge nerf to blasters, I don't know what is.
5. You're right, if the stacking nerf wasn't in place, it would unfairly advantage low grid weapons like ACs in particular.
Because I said so...
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.27 19:30:00 -
[18]
Originally by: murder one
1. Kinetic and thermal damage types are tanked to hell and back. HACs and Command ships are also heavily hardened vs. Kin/Therm damage types. I know, I tank them.
2. Blasters doing "more" is correct. They do slightly more than the other weapons, now that the ammo nerf is in place. The difference is not great enough to make up for all of their other drawbacks, especially with all of the new changes in Kali.
3. Blasters are extremely hard to fit to their respective ships. I don't see any Deimos' flying around with a full rack of Neutron IIs and a decent (or any) tank. Same thing applies for all other blaster ships.
4. Blaster damage can no longer be thought of as "prodigious" in light of the Kali changes both to ammo and HP. If the Kali changes aren't a huge nerf to blasters, I don't know what is.
5. You're right, if the stacking nerf wasn't in place, it would unfairly advantage low grid weapons like ACs in particular.
1. Every damage type in t2 is tanked to hell and back. There is no tanking advantage for kinetic and thermal for t2 ships over any ships that are not present in any other races ships. This even ignores the damage overlap. Two races have a Kin/Therm advantage adn two races do not. Three races deal kinetic damage and three races deal thermal damage. The taking issue caused by the caldari/Gellente overlap is shared by Caldari rails, as well as amarr shooting at thermal[and high base EM], and Minmatar shooting at kinetic as well as Caldari shooting at Kin/therm.
While it is true that there is no race that does not tank kin or therm on its t2 ships it is also true that there is no race that does not deal kin or therm damge with its weapons and there is no race that has a racial advantage to damage types against t2 ships.
As well, these bonuses are still dependant[2 hardeners on the main, 1 on the secondary] on the base resistances, which are favorable to blasters.
2. Blasters do a whole lot more. E.G. Heavy Electron Blasters do more damage than Heavy Pulse lasers. The smallest blasters do more damage than the largest lasers on a gun for gun basis. Unless you have a damage bonus on lasers you actualy do more damage fitting the smallest blasters then you do fitting the largest lasers.
3. No, you dont see a demois flying around with a full load of Heavy Neutrons. They are similar weapons to tachyons in design, oversized. The only reason you ever see amarr ships with tachyons is that its a long range weapon where anything but a passive tank is less important. There isnt any problem with fitting electrons or Ions on the Demios, and with 5 guns and a double damage bonus, a Demios with Electrons is going to be doing 17.5% more damage than a Zealot with Heavy Pulses. Ill give you two hints about which oen has more PG left over after fitting Electrons/Heavy Pulses. A: It starts with a "D" and B: it ends with an "emios". You can do quite a number with Ions as well for a slight powergrid deficit.[120 PG, less by 80 or so after Kali]
Its no vagabond for fitting, but we have already established[or at least, I hope we have established] that there is a problem with the fitting requirements of Autocannons.
4. Why not? Blaster damage didnt change in relation to laser damage? Autocannons got at most a 4% or so boost due to their damage/rof changes[short version is "firing a clip takes longer so reloading reduces DPS less resulting in a slight DPS increase"] and more reasonable assesements would set around 1.5%-2%. Unless there has been a large amount of change in the relative damages of ships, the HP/Cap boosts have [for the most part] evened out[and if you want me to show this, i can] and havent changed balance between damage and nos or damage from different types of guns. If anything the increase in combat time is a bonus to blasters as there is more time to close with before they can kill you, and more time for ships that rely on range to make mistakes.
Cont...
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.27 19:38:00 -
[19]
...Cont.
I.E. the percentage of time in a fight that is spent outside of the blasters optimal ranges is less as the time it takes to close to a target has not changed, but the amount of time the battle lasts has changed. When the blaster ship starts firing is irrelevent E.G. You are fighting a ship pre-kali vs post kali. Pre Kali the ship would be able to take 25% of your hit points away before you got to it and started firing, so that you had to do 100% of its HP while it only had to do 75% of yours to kill you. 25% of your HP pre-Kali is only 20% of your HP post Kali. So now you have to do 100% of its HP while it has to do 80% of your HP. If consiering HP boosts as normalized between the patch in this situation you would have gained an absolute hit point advantage of 6.67%
As well there are more chances for someone who is able to keep you at range to make a mistake and fall into your wheelhouse.
5. I am leaving this here because I like being right and dont want to get off my high horse. Seriously, the view from up here is fantastic.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2006.11.27 22:48:00 -
[20]
I'm all for the 7.5% bonus if it only works on blasters.
However, they want combat to last longer, so it'd make no sense to boost the DPS of ships after boosting hp.
Originally by: kieron
The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Kunming
Amarr
adeptus gattacus
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 22:59:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
I'm all for the 7.5% bonus if it only works on blasters.
However, they want combat to last longer, so it'd make no sense to boost the DPS of ships after boosting hp.
Yes but HP boost didnt help blasterboats in fact it broke them. We want combat to last longer not create uber tanks unbreakable by ships that used to do the job just fine!
The point Tuxford seems to miss is that the HP change not only made combat last longer but also broke the "time-tank" of blasterboats who depended on short killing times or their tank would fail due to no-cap!...
Quote:
READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
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Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.11.27 23:03:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
I'm all for the 7.5% bonus if it only works on blasters.
However, they want combat to last longer, so it'd make no sense to boost the DPS of ships after boosting hp.
Combat would still last longer... but blaster ships would still be viable. Combat would last longer because ships still have extra HP and extra cap, which equates to more repping time (and if you passive tank, it results in more "effective" HP).
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
gu o
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Posted - 2006.11.27 23:20:00 -
[23]
Hey i would be game... while your at it can you add a 3rd bonus to amarr ships...maybe say a 10% bonus to laser damage... yeah on every ship... thats fair...
Christ people bugger off. gal ships/blasters are fking amazing. They massivly out power lasers (yeah the whole resistance thing, makes being amarr fun) I am getting sick of the whinning cmon guys ccp is making the game this way for a reason. Deal with it.
Amarrian ships-Awesome
Amarrian ships with lasers-not so awesome
Amarrian ships with blasters-godly |
Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.11.27 23:23:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 27/11/2006 23:24:35
Originally by: gu o
Hey i would be game... while your at it can you add a 3rd bonus to amarr ships...maybe say a 10% bonus to laser damage... yeah on every ship... thats fair...
Christ people bugger off. gal ships/blasters are fking amazing. They massivly out power lasers (yeah the whole resistance thing, makes being amarr fun) I am getting sick of the whinning cmon guys ccp is making the game this way for a reason. Deal with it.
Er, how about... NO!
Just because lasers currently have issues doesn't mean that game balance should be based around THEM. Lasers have a pretty simple fix, and we all know what it is.
I DO agree, however, that laser cap use (AND blaster cap use) needs to be brought down; and the "10% cap use bonus" on Amarr ships needs to be replaced with something a bit more useful and unique.
Having laser cap use so high and then giving them a cap use bonus is a waste of bonus... in the same way that it is a waste of time to go to a restaurant, and have the waiter tell you "hey, you can print off a $10 coupon online!" Great! Cool... so just give me $10 off my meal then!
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
Exiled One
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2006.11.27 23:25:00 -
[25]
I thought this was a joke thread. Idiots are still discussing in full force.
It's great being Amarr, aint it? |
xeom
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.11.27 23:29:00 -
[26]
10%ROF and DAmage to minmatar ships please as we were already suffering before the patch.
---
"Those nuclear missiles are for domestic heating." - Scagga
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Lirt
State War Academy
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Posted - 2006.11.27 23:29:00 -
[27]
This is hilarious, you gallente are so desperate to be the best....
This cant happen, cause it will unbalance the game very much! and btw why buff only gallente and not all races?
Constructive posts are what devs want, but i doubt this is one....
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Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.11.27 23:31:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Lirt
This is hilarious, you gallente are so desperate to be the best....
This cant happen, cause it will unbalance the game very much! and btw why buff only gallente and not all races?
Constructive posts are what devs want, but i doubt this is one....
Actually it wouldn't unbalance the game very much at all. How do you figure it?
What, because a blastership might actually be useful for something? Yeah that would he TRAGIC!
(You gotta remember we're talking about Rev 1 here, NOT TRANQ!)
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.11.27 23:32:00 -
[29]
Originally by: xeom
10%ROF and DAmage to minmatar ships please as we were already suffering before the patch.
Hehe I wouldn't mind, I fly Minmatar too...
But in all seriousness, one must admit that +10% rof AND +10% damage would be a little over the top.
And now the obligatory: Now stop trolling the ***** thread with off-topic garbage.
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
xeom
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.11.27 23:32:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
Originally by: Lirt
This is hilarious, you gallente are so desperate to be the best....
This cant happen, cause it will unbalance the game very much! and btw why buff only gallente and not all races?
Constructive posts are what devs want, but i doubt this is one....
Actually it wouldn't unbalance the game very much at all. How do you figure it?
What, because a blastership might actually be useful for something? Yeah that would he TRAGIC!
(You gotta remember we're talking about Rev 1 here, NOT TRANQ!)
Currently on Tranq they are probably the best type of battleship next the domi.
After kali they will still rock but acctauly be balanced get the **** over it.
---
"Those nuclear missiles are for domestic heating." - Scagga
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