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Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard
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Posted - 2006.11.29 14:20:00 -
[31]
Someone wrote on the test forum, that a scorp went from 11.x to 7.2 on racial jammers. Where everyone else went from 7.2 to 3.6 in jamming strenght.
Seen from the Scorpions point of view, that is a nerf. But in comparison with the other races ships, its actually a boost. Where before a scorp were only about 50% better, its now 100% better than other ships.
Before this change, a singel scorp with 4 racials and 4 multis could perma jam my Armageddon with 2 active ECCMs and 2 passive. I mean, i had close to 300 in sensor strength with absolutely no effect. This nerf was indeed needed.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.29 14:26:00 -
[32]
Maybe now we'll finally see Amarrian ships using tracking disruptors and Gallente ships using sensor dampeners.
Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
Commander Nikolas
Gallente Arcana Imperii Ltd. Sani Khal'Vecna
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Posted - 2006.11.29 15:14:00 -
[33]
Honestly, I thought the scorp/BB/Rook/Falcon/Griffen should have gotten a better bonus increase to ECM.
However for all the other ships/ECM modules I agree with the change. I don't think it removes ECM as a useful module or tactic. It just puts it on a lvl playing field! It isn't the I-Win button...
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LoKesh
Amarr InQuest Ascension Vertigo Coalition
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Posted - 2006.11.29 15:16:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Commander Nikolas Honestly, I thought the scorp/BB/Rook/Falcon/Griffen should have gotten a better bonus increase to ECM.
Signed
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AshFish
Crazy 88's O X I D E
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Posted - 2006.11.29 15:20:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes
Before this change, a singel scorp with 4 racials and 4 multis could perma jam my Armageddon with 2 active ECCMs and 2 passive. I mean, i had close to 300 in sensor strength with absolutely no effect. This nerf was indeed needed.
What else is the scorp meant to be able to do, its damage output is awful and if it doesn't keep you jammed then its gone in seconds as a tank of its own is out of the question.
I still agree that a nerf was needed but i don't think this one has work, the non ecm specific ships still have a chance to jam so will still fit the modules if they have spare slots and the ecm specific ship have become comedic relief on the battlefield.
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Laboratus
Gallente BGG Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.29 15:39:00 -
[36]
Originally by: LoKesh
Originally by: Commander Nikolas Honestly, I thought the scorp/BB/Rook/Falcon/Griffen should have gotten a better bonus increase to ECM.
Signed
Signed ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats |
Plymer Ization
ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.29 15:54:00 -
[37]
Originally by: SSgt Sniper Edited by: SSgt Sniper on 29/11/2006 10:06:21 Gallente need one ship that has ECM bonus to match us back up with the Blackbird, even if it's a really small ecm bonus. (To Quote: "Short help is better than no help at all") Barring that, give us back some of what you took away ccp.
This is an attempt at humour, right? Please tell me it is.
ECM = Caldari Racial EW RSD = Gallente Racial EW TD = Amarr Racial EW TP = Minmatar Racial EW
It just so happens that because ECM was so bloody overpowered Caldari Racial EW was the EW of choice across all races that had a midslot to spare for a MULTISPECOFDOOOOOOOM/I-WIN Button.
The other thing that bugs me is that ECM skills are a rank 2, whereas all the other (less effective) Racial EW skills are rank 3. Why?
The TP is fairly useless in most situations, but does have it's merrits, but RSDs and TDs are ftw in many situations.
ECM should stay Caldari. It's cheap and easy, just like their race
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Haulzorzz
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Posted - 2006.11.29 15:54:00 -
[38]
Originally by: AshFish 2 racial and 4 non-racial jammers
Perhaps you lost because your setup sucks because you had nothign but ECM in your mids?
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.29 15:58:00 -
[39]
Originally by: AshFish
Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes
Before this change, a singel scorp with 4 racials and 4 multis could perma jam my Armageddon with 2 active ECCMs and 2 passive. I mean, i had close to 300 in sensor strength with absolutely no effect. This nerf was indeed needed.
What else is the scorp meant to be able to do, its damage output is awful and if it doesn't keep you jammed then its gone in seconds as a tank of its own is out of the question.
I still agree that a nerf was needed but i don't think this one has work, the non ecm specific ships still have a chance to jam so will still fit the modules if they have spare slots and the ecm specific ship have become comedic relief on the battlefield.
I wouldn't be surprised to find that the 8 ECM scorp vs. an apoc: a) couldn't break it's tank. b) couldn't stop it leaving. c) couldn't tank it's drones.
I like the scorp. It's my favourite ship, because it just looks so cool, and is interesting to fly.
But ... well, I very rarely actually got kills in it. In the 'a hauler can tank this ship' kind of sense.
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Galen Silas
Gallente Mean Corp
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Posted - 2006.11.29 16:04:00 -
[40]
I really think its bull, I prefer there to be no ecm's, the rook getting 20% bonus per lvl on ecm jammers, scorp, falcon and BB still get 10% and i don't really give a rip what people say, when i was playing on the test server and any of these 4 ships put there jammers on me i was perma-jammed. Thats bullcrap, I think every ships sensor strengths need to be increased slightly more than what they did, pretty lame when all it takes is a few ecm's on some paperthin ship to make a tough ship useless, when it could normally stand up to 3 "regular" opponents.
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.29 16:04:00 -
[41]
Some time ago asked about best Caldari PvP ship you had been answered corpion in 80% of the cases. Now, after heavy nerf of Scorpion which even unable to reliable jam ONE BS, which Caldari ship is best for PvP? Caracal... --------------------------------- Hint 1: Train for Mega, not for Rokh Hint 2: Abaddon is uber fleet BS. R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <Eagle> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake>
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Shadoo
North Eastern Swat
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Posted - 2006.11.29 16:12:00 -
[42]
Yes -- Falcon, Rook and Scorpion now totally suck. There is no reason at all for anyone to buy them, nor Multispectral / Racial Tech 2 modules.
BPO holders and Producers, take notice of above fact and quickly start selling stock at vasty reduced prices before they will sink like a rock.
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The Anointed
Caldari KR0M The Red Skull
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Posted - 2006.11.29 16:26:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Roemy Schneider from sunday's dev-blog on some totally different topic, but hey
Originally by: "" [...]It is in line with the EVE vision that the gamers should be minimally subject to luck and maximally subject to skill.[...]
totally remove ecm! ^^
I would be happy with that option if they refund all the millions of sp I have trained in it, tbh there are better ways to win fights.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.29 16:35:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Zixxa Some time ago asked about best Caldari PvP ship you had been answered corpion in 80% of the cases. Now, after heavy nerf of Scorpion which even unable to reliable jam ONE BS, which Caldari ship is best for PvP? Caracal...
Drake's looking promising. Caracal now has assault missiles. Rokh is good at shootin' stuff.
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Zacheria Malfor
Gallente FightClub TQ
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Posted - 2006.11.29 16:37:00 -
[45]
Originally by: SSgt Sniper With the huge amount of cut to ecm, Gallente which had few Ewar options before seem to have lost it as a tactic altogether. Discuss.
Reading your post gives me the impression that you were one of the many who flew a nos/ewar domi.
Sensor damp's work perfectly fine as do jamming drones if you need to rely on EWar to win your fights. IMO it is a good change that ecm has been changed to the stage where it is only really effective on EWar ships as opposed to every ship under the sun packing an ECM.
Do not fear the reaper, for death is the only certainty in life.
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Garreck
Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.29 16:44:00 -
[46]
Tracking disruptors and sensor damps are terrific...sounds like more people need to try 'em out if they think that not using ECM means their e-war days are done...
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Search Seeek
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Posted - 2006.11.29 16:59:00 -
[47]
after training for the rook, i am rather ****ed off my last month of training now mean squat.
Hopefully they will do something to fix this
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SSgt Sniper
Gallente In Excess Enterprises
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Posted - 2006.11.29 16:59:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Zacheria Malfor
Originally by: SSgt Sniper With the huge amount of cut to ecm, Gallente which had few Ewar options before seem to have lost it as a tactic altogether. Discuss.
Reading your post gives me the impression that you were one of the many who flew a nos/ewar domi.
Sensor damp's work perfectly fine as do jamming drones if you need to rely on EWar to win your fights. IMO it is a good change that ecm has been changed to the stage where it is only really effective on EWar ships as opposed to every ship under the sun packing an ECM.
I don't own a Domi. Peroid. (I can't get past the idea it looks like someone sat on the pot and squeezed it out....)
I used a Celly. And with a Damp/multispec it was perfectly capable of doing the job I had in mind. I say I used a Celly because I lost it in post Kali sparring with a corpmate. He wasn't used to the idea of being able to kill me that quick. So I have to decide what I'm going to now do, and tbh it looks like double damp Blasterix is about the only way to go. --------- Gallente need ONE ship with an ecm bonus option. JUST ONE. |
The Anointed
Caldari KR0M The Red Skull
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Posted - 2006.11.29 17:00:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes
Before this change, a singel scorp with 4 racials and 4 multis could perma jam my Armageddon with 2 active ECCMs and 2 passive. I mean, i had close to 300 in sensor strength with absolutely no effect. This nerf was indeed needed.
So your saying the change was needed because if a scorp used 8 mid slots, it could jam you whilst you were using 4 low slots?
I fail to see your point.
Anyway EW will be one of the only things that in the near future ccp will never be able to get right according to everyone, I cant effectivly use lasers or projectiles on my caldari ships, so why should anyone be able to use electronic warfare on thiers?
The main problem is everyone has different ideas on how it should work, I personally beleive the current way with it being chance based is actually the best way to do it. The old way of doing it where, if someone has enough multis they can effectivley jam anything with a 0% chance of missing, well thats unrealistic and pretty crap imo. You may whine about always getting jammed etc, but what is better, a 0% chance to not get jammed, or a 1% chance.
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LoKesh
Amarr InQuest Ascension Vertigo Coalition
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Posted - 2006.11.29 17:02:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Galen Silas I really think its bull, I prefer there to be no ecm's, the rook getting 20% bonus per lvl on ecm jammers, scorp, falcon and BB still get 10% and i don't really give a rip what people say, when i was playing on the test server and any of these 4 ships put there jammers on me i was perma-jammed. Thats bullcrap, I think every ships sensor strengths need to be increased slightly more than what they did, pretty lame when all it takes is a few ecm's on some paperthin ship to make a tough ship useless, when it could normally stand up to 3 "regular" opponents.
1v1 really isn't the issue. Yes, a ship that is dedicated to ECM and has many mid slots full of ECM modules SHOULD be able to lock down any single opponent with 80-90% efficiency. However, what happens next is one of two options 1) The jammed ship warps away 2) the jammed ship laughs as the ECM ships hits it with every weapon it has and can't do a thing.
ECM ships are fleet ships. They're valuable in decreasing the damage done by an enemy fleet. As it is now, the ships are significanly less effective at locking down ONE target using ONE module. In a fleet scenario this means a much greater number of ships evade the jam - this means less damage reduction to your fleet, and more enemy ships targeting your ECM ship and destroying it. Fit rigs and low slot mods? Okay, I fill my low slots on a Rook, and use two rigs (which aren't available yet... geee...) and now I'm almost as effective as I was before. Sounds fine? No - without the minimal armor tank you carried before you'll go down quicker.
Yes, rigs provide all kinds of new opportunities, but they provide them to everyone. The ECM ships need a slightly higher bonus - 15% and 30% would be ideal (this doesn't even bring them back to their old strength, but it does make fitting low slots and rigs a more realistic option)
No one has said anything about what less jamming and higher hitpoints mean. I need to think about it and run some numbers, but I believe that nerfed jamming as well.
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welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.11.29 17:10:00 -
[51]
Its great now, they've done exactly what they should have done a long time ago.
They've made ECM a specialized practice. To jam in an ECM ship you now have to fit it to do just that and you need to train the skills to be truly effective at it.
Gone are many the major reasons no-one liked it in the first place, multispec domis, jamming frigates, jamming cruiser zergs etc etc.
Everyone will load their ships with damps now instead...
It's definitely an improvement.
To the op: Gallente now have arguably the best form of Ewar, their recons are the new ships to fear. Perhaps they'll even take priority over jamming ships as primary targets in small-medium scale engagements
Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
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Rulkez
FireStar Inc Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.29 17:15:00 -
[52]
im delighted ewar has been nerf batted, there is no way that ewar should have been a must have on most ships , and in most engagements whoever had the most ew won, imho now that an ewar ship must dedicate most his setup to ewar is right
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.29 17:20:00 -
[53]
Scorp has approximately 50-60% chance to jam one BS using 4 multispec t2 jammers. Really "useful" fleet EWAR-BS 'Scorpion'! --------------------------------- Hint 1: Train for Mega, not for Rokh Hint 2: Abaddon is uber fleet BS. R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <Eagle> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake>
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welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.11.29 17:21:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Zixxa Scorp has approximately 50-60% chance to jam one BS using 4 multispec t2 jammers. Really "useful" fleet EWAR-BS 'Scorpion'!
Use racials in fleet, better range, better jamming chance. Multispecs get you killed.
Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
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SSgt Sniper
Gallente In Excess Enterprises
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Posted - 2006.11.29 18:44:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Originally by: SSgt Sniper
Originally by: Gerraine EWAR drones wernt nerfed :)
I've pretty much resigned to carrying 5 at all times. Sadly.
Oh and about jamming carriers: point taken but wouldn't it have made more sense to amp up the carriers instead of gutting the ECM? I'm sorry but when I can go outside and turn two Ion II's on, two ecm drones, and STILL not jam a Gallente cruiser carrying absolutely no eccm, that's just a little, insane.
The other thing they could do is give at least one Gallente Cruiser a ecm bonus to match the Blackbird. Damps only buy you so much time now that the idea is to promote a longer fight.
Same way as Caldari ships need 100m3 bonus in drones in all their ships. then you can have 1 ship ECM bonus
I'd give you 50m of room if you'd give me a ecm bonus of 10% on the Celestis....... --------- Gallente need ONE ship with an ecm bonus option. JUST ONE. |
Krulla
Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.29 19:07:00 -
[56]
Originally by: SSgt Sniper I'd give you 50m of room if you'd give me a ecm bonus of 10% on the Celestis.......
This has already been pointed out to you, but you choose to ignore it.
A gallente ship will never ever have a ECM bonus. Period. Why? Because ECM is the Caldari EW.
Amarr have Tracking disruptors Caldari have ECM Gallente have RSDs Matari have Target painters (lol).
Thread over, tbfh.
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Nagelbrett
Caldari Reign in Blood Blackwater Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.29 19:42:00 -
[57]
Well i just did a test with a corpmate
i was in a Rook
he was in an unfitted Megathron, just an ECCM Modul fitted
and i never jammed him for 5 Minutes, putting 4 Racial T2 Jammers on him, nerving isnt a bad thing, but this change kills ECM completly
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Vishnej
Demonic Retribution Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.11.29 23:52:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Nagelbrett Well i just did a test with a corpmate
i was in a Rook
he was in an unfitted Megathron, just an ECCM Modul fitted
and i never jammed him for 5 Minutes, putting 4 Racial T2 Jammers on him, nerving isnt a bad thing, but this change kills ECM completly
This should be incredibly statistically unlikely. Were these GALLENTE racial t2 jammers?
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HankMurphy
Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror
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Posted - 2006.11.29 23:56:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Nagelbrett Well i just did a test with a corpmate
i was in a Rook
he was in an unfitted Megathron, just an ECCM Modul fitted
and i never jammed him for 5 Minutes, putting 4 Racial T2 Jammers on him, nerving isnt a bad thing, but this change kills ECM completly
5 minutes huh? yeah, i'm inclined to think either you were using the wrong racial jammers or your stopwatch is running a bit fast
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Free Mason
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Posted - 2006.11.30 00:05:00 -
[60]
Originally by: SSgt Sniper With the huge amount of cut to ecm, Gallente which had few Ewar options before seem to have lost it as a tactic altogether. Discuss.
Don't even start with "gallient had few ewar options" bs man. dude this is getting silly why is everyone complaining? Is it not the gallient who have the azuru (spell checker plz) the recon ship with Crazy damp/warpjam bonus. my bud has one and he hacks me down with it every time I fly against him. Something about my lock dropping from 65km to 10km hurts especially with his 32km warpdisruptor. now If you wanna see issues with ewar buy a geddon... take your complaints to your mother please. THis is silly everyone and their borther instead of making due or changing (yeah changing the dreded word of all the whinners) you complain till somthing is changed; cattered to your skills. Get over it and grow some BAL*S
(sorry for the ill comments posted here but this is getting outta hand... no more complaints please)
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