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Pesadel0
Vagabundos
THE H0RDE
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Posted - 2006.12.02 10:51:00 -
[91]
 Originally by: Jim McGregor
Give it up. The war is over. 
The war continues.
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booh
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Posted - 2006.12.02 11:12:00 -
[92]
Edited by: booh on 02/12/2006 11:12:42
Originally by: Mr Bright
Hmmm I wonder if the devs will be kind enough to tell us how many of each of the 4 new BS was build in the first week -and how many BPO's was bought.
That would give a good idea how badly the messed up with the mealstrom - cause in its current form I see absolutly no reason to buy it. Heck the abbadon is just as good, if not better with projectiles for fleet duty.
Ships sold in Jita on 01-12-2006@10h gametime (ships sold / lowest price).
Tier 3 BS
Rokh: 187 / 200m
Hyperion: 86 / 253m
Abaddon: 64 / 214m
Maelstrom: 41 / 180m
Tier 2 BC
Drake: 470 / 58m
Myrmidon: 141 / 54m
Hurricane: 114 / 50m
Harbinger: 98 / 50
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Kagura Nikon
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Posted - 2006.12.02 11:16:00 -
[93]
that effectivelly shows what "balance is" blergh... minmatar need a turret backk give it to hurricane or make the mael the first 9 turret ship in game (that would be neat :P)
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Kagura Nikon
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Posted - 2006.12.02 11:23:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Acceber Reuabnehel
perhaps I'm looking at things alittle differently. But this is how I see this ship working, or it's good points.
First off, it is slower than most other ships, but slightly faster than the other L3 ships (except gallente, which can't shoot nearly as far due to limited targeting range--that is definately designed for closer quarters fighting) so when pitted verse the amarr/caldarri ships it can slowly decide the fighting distance.
It has the smallest sig radius of any of the L3 ships. The Rokh has the worst--it might as well have targets painted on its hull for how easy it will be to hit.
It has the largest (tied with Gallente) drone bay--plop out a few sentry drones if you're gate camping and get their extra DPS.
After about 60% resists become less and less effective. It becomes all about the boost and recharge. 2 shield hardener mods-EM and an invuln 2 and it has a solid resist base and HP recovery surpassing anything besides a hyperion. (Especially with a T2 XL shield booster-thats INSANE Hp regen)
PLUS as projectiles take no cap, vs Rokh's hybrids it can keep firing forever. That gives it a significant advantage for simultaneous tanking + firing in prolonged combat.
Rokh can't compare with it's damage output at anything closer than 140 KM... Most combat occurs significantly closer than that.
With it's greatly increased PG/CPU it CAN actually fit 8 T2 howitzers (throw on a PDU for the extra PG boost you need) with plenty of CPU left over for damage/tracking mods.
If the maelstrom sucks, so does the hyperion (same bonus, just armor instead of shield-and the armor tankers dont have implants or modules which increase their hp recharge amounts) Granted, using low slots for tanking leaves mid slots for tackling, but that means there are less spaces for damage/tracking modules.
Looking at the other L3 ships they ALL are split tank/damage. Be it armour/shield recharge, or armor/shield resist, they all get something. CCP made L3 ships compare to other L3 ships.
Granted there are some things that should have been changed on the maelstrom.
First, as has been noted many times before: speed. It should be notably faster than the other L3 BS (except the hyperion, which is DESIGNED for speed) so a 120 or 125 base would have been more appropriate in keeping with the minmatar ship velocity advantage.
Second: Slightly larger drone bay-125m3. This would allow it to be the only L3 battleship that can have 5 large T2 drones (or sentry drones).
Targetting range:since it seems geared towards long range combat a farther target range (to 85, compared to the abaddon's 80 km) would help it give that 'little bit sooner' target lock, and perhaps an extra volly or 2 before opponants get into range.
Don't try and make a ship do something it isn't supposed to. Compared to the other L3 battleships it does the same damage, so think of game balance before everyone screams bloody murder.
But as far as the 'miner BS"... that's just BS (no pun intended) all the L3 ships have 8 turret slots and more CPU than their predacessors, every race has a mining BS now, and caldarri wins out with that (more CPU for more mining laser upgrades)
Synapsis:It isn't a tempest, neither is a Rokh a raven, nor an Abaddon an Apoc, dont make it one. Use it's advantages:little extra damage, and the excess cap from projectiles lets it run that super shield tank longer.
yeap it is still a Battleship that on one to 1 against another one it can outlive most things in field.. but hard to beleive someone would buy such pricey stuff to risk it on lone operations. anyway for solo carzy operatiosn typhoon is better choice pricewise.
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Rhax
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Posted - 2006.12.02 11:56:00 -
[95]
Edited by: Rhax on 02/12/2006 11:58:42
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
make the mael the first 9 turret ship in game (that would be neat :P)
Now I really like that idea... it says Maelstrom to me...
Edit: Maybe it could be where the missing turret from the Hurricane wound up?
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Mr Bright
untaught
Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2006.12.02 12:12:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Mr Bright on 02/12/2006 12:15:48
Originally by: booh
Ships sold in Jita on 01-12-2006@10h gametime (ships sold / lowest price).
Tier 3 BS
Rokh: 187 / 200m
Hyperion: 86 / 253m
Abaddon: 64 / 214m
Maelstrom: 41 / 180m
Tier 2 BC
Drake: 470 / 58m
Myrmidon: 141 / 54m
Hurricane: 114 / 50m
Harbinger: 98 / 50
Problem is, every sane eve player have given up on a balanced minmatar ship a long time ago. So the low volume in sales is just an indicator that nobody is going for it anymore.
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Sal Alo
Minmatar
The Syndicate Inc
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.12.02 14:51:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Epidemis
It's perfect for 8x Miner II
The (sad) truth
Whoever is afraid of death dies every day. Whoever isn't, dies only once. |
Pan Crastus
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Posted - 2006.12.02 14:54:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Mr Bright
Edited by: Mr Bright on 02/12/2006 12:15:48
Originally by: booh
Ships sold in Jita on 01-12-2006@10h gametime (ships sold / lowest price).
Tier 3 BS
Rokh: 187 / 200m
Hyperion: 86 / 253m
Abaddon: 64 / 214m
Maelstrom: 41 / 180m
Tier 2 BC
Drake: 470 / 58m
Myrmidon: 141 / 54m
Hurricane: 114 / 50m
Harbinger: 98 / 50
Problem is, every sane eve player have given up on a balanced minmatar ship a long time ago. So the low volume in sales is just an indicator that nobody is going for it anymore.
IMHO the fact that Hurricanes sell better than Harbingers, but Maelstroms sell much worse than Abaddons, shows that - even though what you wrote is true - the Maelstrom is disappointing even for the remaining Minmatar players.
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schurem
Anarchy Inc.
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Posted - 2006.12.02 14:57:00 -
[99]
feh sales figures can go kiss my ass. imo its the one ship minmatar were missing: a pwnalicious mission runner / ratslayer ship. against angels shield tanks rawk. so there.
you guys can b!tch and wh!ne all you want, i love the mael.
<<<< No Boundaries, No Fences, Fly Free Or Die Trying >>>>
Warning sounds!, My kingdom for more warning sounds!
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Pesadel0
Vagabundos
THE H0RDE
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Posted - 2006.12.02 15:09:00 -
[100]
Originally by: schurem
feh sales figures can go kiss my ass. imo its the one ship minmatar were missing: a pwnalicious mission runner / ratslayer ship. against angels shield tanks rawk. so there.
you guys can b!tch and wh!ne all you want, i love the mael.
You love the ship cause it can thanks the rats?
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Ruciza
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Posted - 2006.12.02 16:22:00 -
[101]
Originally by: booh
Edited by: booh on 02/12/2006 11:12:42
Originally by: Mr Bright
Hmmm I wonder if the devs will be kind enough to tell us how many of each of the 4 new BS was build in the first week -and how many BPO's was bought.
That would give a good idea how badly the messed up with the mealstrom - cause in its current form I see absolutly no reason to buy it. Heck the abbadon is just as good, if not better with projectiles for fleet duty.
Ships sold in Jita on 01-12-2006@10h gametime (ships sold / lowest price).
Tier 3 BS
Rokh: 187 / 200m
Hyperion: 86 / 253m
Abaddon: 64 / 214m
Maelstrom: 41 / 180m
Tier 2 BC
Drake: 470 / 58m
Myrmidon: 141 / 54m
Hurricane: 114 / 50m
Harbinger: 98 / 50
Such statistics say exactly nothing. 10 hours? Number of Caldari users? Number of Gallente users? Hype on the forums before release?
And people, stop taking that Tux quote of the Mael being subpar for real. Read it again and spot the irony. Irony. Ever heard of it?
You think that whining gives you better ships. Never going to happen. Naive.
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Naughty Boy
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Posted - 2006.12.02 16:37:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Ruciza
You think that whining gives you better ships. Never going to happen. Naive.
It does work, and it's easy to prove: the jaguar used to be an utter waste of time and is now arguably one of the best AFs. And I only need one example to prove you wrong, though there are many.
I have Min BS 5, large proj spec trained, and can use almost all t2 shield tanking gear. I won't fly a maelstrom in its current state.
NB.
In Rust We Trust |
schurem
Anarchy Inc.
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Posted - 2006.12.02 16:38:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Pesadel0
You love the ship cause it can thanks the rats?
ehr.. yeah  that and 8 times 1200 millimetres of explosive love oh and good looks too 
<<<< No Boundaries, No Fences, Fly Free Or Die Trying >>>>
Warning sounds!, My kingdom for more warning sounds!
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.12.02 16:39:00 -
[104]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/12/2006 16:47:45
I know its hard people, but you have to wake up and realize that minnie ships will never be as good for close combat as gallente, or as good for ranged combat as caldari/amarr. Its simply the way they are designed... jack of all trades. Thats why Hurricane is just decent and not uber, and why Maelstrom works but isnt the best at anything.
And for some people, it works. For others, it just creates frustration. So switch if you want to, I dont think you'll regret it. The point is to have fun, right?
---
Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Pan Crastus
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Posted - 2006.12.02 16:40:00 -
[105]
Originally by: schurem
feh sales figures can go kiss my ass. imo its the one ship minmatar were missing: a pwnalicious mission runner / ratslayer ship. against angels shield tanks rawk. so there.
you guys can b!tch and wh!ne all you want, i love the mael.
Every serious mission runner with Minmatar skills is using a Machariel now. It costs 300m more, but that's peanuts for a regular mission runner and it performs so much better that even a detailed comparison is pointless.
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booh
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Posted - 2006.12.02 17:08:00 -
[106]
Edited by: booh on 02/12/2006 17:09:31
I just posted the numbers, didn't say they show anything. And it wasn't 10 hours duration, but at 10:00 GMT.
Well the Maelstrom itself it's a great ship, but without a purpose. The 7,5% boost bonus is OK, but the Maelstrom was announced as mid-slot monster. Sure it has 6 mid-slots, but you need to use at least one to make use of the bonus.
I think the biggest problem people have with such a bonus is that it requires a mid-slot. Abaddon has 8 low-slots if you look at it this way.
Just give us a 5% to explosive damage per level instead :) Or give us 8 mid-slots and leave the bonus...
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Mr Bright
untaught
Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2006.12.03 17:01:00 -
[107]
Well I think the ship initially was made with a specific intent, but got designed as "jack of all trades".
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Audri Fisher
Caldari
The Keep
THE R0CK
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Posted - 2006.12.03 20:06:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Agriel Kushrenada
Ok, fair enough. But do battles, and PvP always occur at 200 Km's appart rather then 100. I mean it's not like you 'agree' with your enemy to start at 200.... Or am I missing something again (highly possible)
AA
If you are in a Rohk, are you going to warp in at 200 km from the enemy where he cant reach you, or are you going to warp in at 100 km where he can? :)
Warp in at 60km and eat them up with antimatter. Not everybody flies in huge gangs that can insta pop a battleship with tech II ammo. Sometimes you just got to get up close and personal. All this is dependent of course on if the enemy has any of the worthless and gimped ammar Battleships. In that case, best to stay out of range and hope you get lucky.
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Tyler Lowe
Minmatar
DROW Org
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Posted - 2006.12.03 20:21:00 -
[109]
My assestment of this ship, is that is a much better battleship than the Tempest for those that do not have large artillery specialization and battleship 5 trained. For those that do, the ship isn't anything all that great.
The Tempest is a better ship for the fully skilled up Matari pilot, and the Maelstrom is a better ship for someone with battleship 4 and maybe large projectile 4 as well. The Maelstrom does have better PVE capability, and when used with more brain power than "warp in and start shooting" can hold it's own in mission completion times.
Summation: A disappointing ship for vets, and a real gem for the up and coming Matari battleship pilot.
J.A.F.O.
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VossKarr
Caldari
The 6th Directorate
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Posted - 2006.12.03 20:26:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Mr Bright
Well I think the ship initially was made with a specific intent, but got designed as "jack of all trades".
Yeah, CCP and their retarded Matari bonuses... 
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Epidemis
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Posted - 2006.12.03 20:35:00 -
[111]
Edited by: Epidemis on 03/12/2006 20:36:14
Even the hurricane got the short end of the BC stick, Drakes have equal dmg, superior tracking and superior range (better dmg incasse you fit attilery). Watched a drake clear an entire complex with ease that I had struggled with alot the day before.
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Tiuwaz
Minmatar
Omacron Militia
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Posted - 2006.12.03 20:39:00 -
[112]
Edited by: Tiuwaz on 03/12/2006 20:41:48
Originally by: Tyler Lowe
My assestment of this ship, is that is a much better battleship than the Tempest for those that do not have large artillery specialization and battleship 5 trained. For those that do, the ship isn't anything all that great.
The Tempest is a better ship for the fully skilled up Matari pilot, and the Maelstrom is a better ship for someone with battleship 4 and maybe large projectile 4 as well. The Maelstrom does have better PVE capability, and when used with more brain power than "warp in and start shooting" can hold it's own in mission completion times.
Summation: A disappointing ship for vets, and a real gem for the up and coming Matari battleship pilot.
and still vastly inferior to someone with a rokh and large hybrid 4/caldari bs 4
Originally by: Gallente Information Ministry
A Myrmidon pilot with 5 heavy drones is a bad pilot, someone who dies to him can only be worse.
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Tyler Lowe
Minmatar
DROW Org
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Posted - 2006.12.03 20:50:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Tiuwaz
and still vastly inferior to someone with a rokh and large hybrid 4/caldari bs 4
Yeah, it could use something. If I were going to try and "fix" this ship, I'd drop the tanking bonus, give it a 10%/level tracking bonus and add a 7th medium slot.
Even as it is, however, it's not completely worthless, just not what we might have hoped.
J.A.F.O.
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Pan Crastus
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Posted - 2006.12.03 21:05:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Tyler Lowe
Yeah, it could use something. If I were going to try and "fix" this ship, I'd drop the tanking bonus, give it a 10%/level tracking bonus and add a 7th medium slot.
I'd give it a flat 10% damage per level bonus (no other bonuses).
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.12.03 22:02:00 -
[115]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 03/12/2006 22:10:00
I made a graph of some of the popular mission ships here.
Tempest is actually at the top for this medium range segment, followed closely by Megathron, Typhoon and Maelstrom (depends on what range you are looking at though). I dont think the Maelstrom looks too shabby, and you dont have to train t2 torpedoes as a minmatar player like with Tempest and the Typhoon to get maximum damage. Just guns and t2 drones.
Come on, its a decent ship. :) It also tanks better than every other ship except the Rohk. And use no cap for guns, no matter how trivial it might be. I kind of like it (for missions).
---
Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Chode Rizoum
Minmatar
Finite Horizon
The Red Skull
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Posted - 2006.12.03 22:16:00 -
[116]
having a real hard time finding a usefull role for a maelstrom in small time pvp/solo...
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.12.03 22:18:00 -
[117]
Edited by: Ath Amon on 03/12/2006 22:20:17
for mission a dps comparsion is quite misleading imo...
you face many different class of ships and for some it takes ages if you are going to use long range...
even siege are imo not that good, cruise missiles are waaaaay more efficent.
tank is also not an issue for most missions so you don't really need a huge tank...
i doubt that mael will be a faster mission runner than a phoon... missiles/drones are simply superior in this "enviroment" as they have not tracking issues, you can fully chose your damage, they work well at all range and against many size of ships
and as said many time... you can't make the mael a good arty ship, artillery is not balanced with rails so even playing with ship bonuses you are going to miss something...
give it 2 offensive bonuses and you lack in tankage... give it 1 dps/1 tankage bonu and you lack in offence
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Estan Drake
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Posted - 2006.12.04 19:18:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Ruciza
(Snip)
You think that whining gives you better ships. Never going to happen. Naive.
Oh yeah? I guess the Nighthawk and all the whining that got it changed was just all my imagination... nope no Devs responded to complaints and said they were changing the bonuses almost immediately after hundreds of Caldari whiners got on the forums or anything...
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