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Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.12.02 01:26:00 - [91] Originally by: Ishmael Hansen Originally by: Bigoleed T2 Market is crap - Seed T2 BPOs again - heavily - and let us invent T3. Seriously. Wont work, when the already tech 2 owners will wave 60b for the new bpos everyone will sell and they will end up in the same hands. They won't wave 60billion isk for them if the BPOs are on the NPC market. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Hayah Theos	Posted - 2006.12.02 02:01:00 - [92] Thank you Radio Active Babe for speaking the truth about EVE. We need to make this issue heard loud and strong until CCP does the "right thing" and floods the market with T2 BPOs to break the Cartel they have created. It will be only when the CARTEL GODS are broke from trying to buy up all the useful T2 BPOs that this game will be back in balance. CCP made them and gave them control of this game and only CCP has the power to break them and bring them back down to mortal earth with the rest of us. If they don't, we may as well be fighting the Arch Angels of Heaven and I don't see anyone really being entertained by that game model.
Xorena Blastaphart Caldari Signum Malus	Posted - 2006.12.02 02:08:00 - [93] Invention is, as I have said many times, a joke, it would be bad even if you could by the datacores etc. from the NPC market for pocket change much less the system in place now. Seeding hundreds of new T2 BPO's through NPC agents is not going to fix anything either. Someone still gets a money making machine. Selling T2 BPO's through NPC agents is also not going to fix anything, look at the BPC *****house and every idiot in EVE selling everything you can think of for less than material costs! Invention WOULD work, if you made it so that you start with a T1 BPO, add datacores, this component and that decyptor etc, have good skills, stick it in an Invention lab slot for say 60 days .. and if it all works out well .. hey you got a T2 BPO !! If not, sorry ... try try again .. (yes the chance of failure is needed but would need to be a fair chance). OK .. T3 ships and components are "released" .. you start with a T2 BPO and proceed on the same road .. Now THAT is invention .. almost real-world.
Hayah Theos	Posted - 2006.12.02 03:03:00 - [94] Xorena...I hear you and agree that the invention process as you desribe it would be realistic, but it would only be balanced if no CArTEL GODS existed. If you don't generate T2 BPOs fast enough to deplete the existing T2 BPO CARTEL GOD'S massive isk bank, they will buy these new T2 BPO's from you for outragious amounts you can't refuse and will still be controlling the T2 market by deep sixing them.
Ishmael Hansen No Quarter.	Posted - 2006.12.02 06:27:00 - [95] Califax, the BPO GODS people are talking about are the ones that deploy a outpost as easily as you build a BS, own several stations in regions where they don't even live (they have their slaves working for them), in major offensives deploy 40+ capital ships, supply their pilots with cost prodution tech 2, etc... We talking bout system sovereignity, region control, etc Now do the math, 200 men fleet with tech 2 cruisers and bs's (large tech 2 gun alone costs around 17m in market, hac 240m+, a sensor booster in like 4m atm, etc), how do you think you will do in an atrition war? Not only that you will be buying your tech 2 stuff from their legion of alts, which means more isk = more GTC's = more alts = more isk = more r&d agents hoarding rp's. A new bpo is seeded and they wave the billions at the guy who got it and they buy it, if they don't win it from the "random" lottery. Invention is utterly broke, not only the datacores prices are insane, you will need Astronometrics 5 to go "explore", etc. Get an ibis, a civ mining laser, go mine veld and I bet you make enough isk to buy an hac before you invent something.
Vandervecken Smith Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.02 07:38:00 - [96] Originally by: Sykosys To those complaining about Mech eng agents, they are part of minmatar R&D Corps and there are plenty of them. Yes, very true. Also irrelevant. Mechanical Engineering DataCores are needed for ALL ships. All hybrid guns, missile launchers, projectile weapons. This is not a skill that is only used by Minmatar, it's used by ALL races. What about the poor guy who uses Amarr R&D agents, if the vast Mech Eng stock is in Minmatar, he can't invent his own ships! You should not have to go outside our race to invent your race's ships & mods, simple as that. The distribution of research divisions across the races, and the distribution of core types needed for racial mods, should reflect each other.
s73v3n2k Caldari UK Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.02 09:44:00 - [97] Are people just not fed up of threads like this? Invention wasn't ever supposed to be easy in any way and the cost of the datacores has nothing to do with CCP but everything to do with the greedy eve population. With regards to T2 bpos - we have heard it all before please stop these posts. All most people are not willing to admit is that they only want the bpo's for their isk value and not because they want to manufacture the items. Most people promptly sell T2 bpos when they get them. Now wouldn't it be annoying if we all started making posts about why you have never had an officer spawn and every other person has or why should people find rare items and not you. It would just be rediculous. Suggesting things like seeding T2 bpo's on the market is not very clever either because once every man and his dog owns one do you really think they will be profitable anymore? considering the time and effort it takes to build components and then the item people would probably not even bother anymore e.g. a T2 absolution builder can only output around 5-6 units a week and a t2 heavy drone builder can only make 25 units a week. Now i can tell you one thing and that there are many professions in eve more profitable than those.
ragewind Caldari VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.02 11:01:00 - [98] Edited by: ragewind on 02/12/2006 11:00:50 Originally by: Ishmael Hansen Originally by: Bigoleed T2 Market is crap - Seed T2 BPOs again - heavily - and let us invent T3. Seriously. Wont work, when the already tech 2 owners will wave 60b for the new bpos everyone will sell and they will end up in the same hands. some will sell others with a brains will start produceing the stuff
Deadly Huntress	Posted - 2006.12.02 16:46:00 - [99] I have to say the tech II BPO thing is an issue. I'm a pvper but even I would like to buy the tech II BPO of the ships and mods I use. It is cheaper for me to produce things through my corp than it is to buy them. If you look at insurance pay outs it tells you exactly how much CCP expects each ship to be worth. I on the other hand haven't even been playing a year so finding even 1 billion to start to stockpile to buy a BPO is impossible. I was hoping things would change with invention but they nerfed it before it ever came out. And this kills people who are in the mfg buisness, as more and more players get into tech II ships the goods they produce no longer are required and your back to your "bpo gods" controlling life. Really all it would take is one selling ships just above cost in jita to start to drop prices. But you know when you have several hundred billion you could never take a cut like that
Siigari Kitawa Gallente HelpCorp United Eden's Fire	Posted - 2006.12.02 16:57:00 - [100] I want to invent some t2 rigs. Here's my problem. The datacores are OMG expensive. It'll cost me over 50 million isk to get 1 t2 rig, if not more! Here's my question- Do datacores get used up once you invent? Or do they just get referenced and you get to keep them? Because if they're persistent, then I'll be a happy panda and stock up on a bunch of datacores to have for use :D
Honneamise Amarr Biotech Industries	Posted - 2006.12.02 19:39:00 - [101] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa I want to invent some t2 rigs. Here's my problem. The datacores are OMG expensive. It'll cost me over 50 million isk to get 1 t2 rig, if not more! Here's my question- Do datacores get used up once you invent? Or do they just get referenced and you get to keep them? Because if they're persistent, then I'll be a happy panda and stock up on a bunch of datacores to have for use :D datacores are consumed, data interfaces are persistent .
Hayah Theos	Posted - 2006.12.02 21:19:00 - [102] Originally by: s73v3n2k Are people just not fed up of threads like this? Invention wasn't ever supposed to be easy in any way and the cost of the datacores has nothing to do with CCP but everything to do with the greedy eve population. With regards to T2 bpos - we have heard it all before please stop these posts. All most people are not willing to admit is that they only want the bpo's for their isk value and not because they want to manufacture the items. Most people promptly sell T2 bpos when they get them. Now wouldn't it be annoying if we all started making posts about why you have never had an officer spawn and every other person has or why should people find rare items and not you. It would just be rediculous. Suggesting things like seeding T2 bpo's on the market is not very clever either because once every man and his dog owns one do you really think they will be profitable anymore? considering the time and effort it takes to build components and then the item people would probably not even bother anymore e.g. a T2 absolution builder can only output around 5-6 units a week and a t2 heavy drone builder can only make 25 units a week. Now i can tell you one thing and that there are many professions in eve more profitable than those. ********************* GOOD TO HEAR THE OPINION OF ONE OF THE T2 BPO CARTEL "BOOTLICKS". THANKS, NOW GO AWAY.
Shayla Etherodyne	Posted - 2006.12.02 21:25:00 - [103] Originally by: Jaguar Dragon your all forgetting the decrytors and data interfaces. these can only be found through exploration, without these your bpc will be very short run and ME/realy bad. they also increase your chance of a succesful invention. instead of a total loss. plus the invention lab slots. AVAILABILTY probe costs and time to find the stuff in deadspace. just how many probes your going to launch to find 1 deadspace object. Here I can reply a bit having tested it in Sisi (where the damn requirement for the probes change from a day to the next!) Produced the probes, only the long range - started to search using between 3 and 4 probes for system - found a cosmic signature at the 3 system but the error was 1/2 AU so I leaved teh system to get the short range, more precis probe needed, those were building while I was scanning. returnde in the system to my bookmark - no more cosmic signature. I have read a the forum and found that happening to other people. Apparently the site you find is fixed only when you wisit it, changing sessions whe a site hasn,t been visited move it. So after using 3-4 long ramge probes costing about 57K each, 1-2 short range for another 54K each (current build price in Tranquility), we will have te nice option to jump to the spot detected in out probeship, well nerfed mounting a probe launcher (lot of CPU used). And there we can find anything: a omber roid field, some gas cloud, a room full of angry rats equivalent to a 10/10 complex. As the probes don't get: NPC ships, buildings [the building on the list are POS structures], roids, gas cloud, we will jump with 0 knolewdge of the target point. So cost of exploration for data interfaces and decriptors 250K in probes for every system explored, and a ship every 4-5 sites found. Enjoy
Shayla Etherodyne	Posted - 2006.12.02 21:31:00 - [104] Originally by: John Blackthorn Invention allows people who have not recieved any t2 bpo's to use the skills they had trained up in hopes of a t2 bpo. It allows someone who wants to build to build something. Doesn't matter what the cost of that build is, some people just want to be able to build something other than just plain old t1 items. As for Data Core RP's being 1,500 it's not a bit deal. For example I have 5 agents all which have over 200k rp's. Datacore's don't get used up either. So thers going to be a limited amount of buyers anyway. Using a level 4 or even a level 3 reserach agent it's about one week per datacore in rp's. -John Datacores are consumed.
Akisa Chen	Posted - 2006.12.02 22:10:00 - [105] Originally by: Shayla Etherodyne So cost of exploration for data interfaces and decriptors 250K in probes for every system explored, Enjoy Only if you actually find something. I spend 6 hours today wasting 23 quest probes on 3 systems and found nothing!
Malena Panic Gallente Acme Technologies Incorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.12.04 19:14:00 - [106] Originally by: s73v3n2k Are people just not fed up of threads like this? Yeah, pretty tired. It would be nice to get a note from the devs saying, 'yeah, eff you, players a year old.' Quote: Suggesting things like seeding T2 bpo's on the market is not very clever either because once every man and his dog owns one do you really think they will be profitable anymore? Absolutely. The bottleneck will be player-generated and controlled components, as it should be. Nowadays almost nobody bothers with moon mining, since the margins are so low and the risk and difficulty so high. That would change once everyone had access to the blueprints that need these minerals.
Mr.Mayhem Amarr Mining Bytes Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.04 19:19:00 - [107] Originally by: Hayah Theos GOOD TO HEAR THE OPINION OF ONE OF THE T2 BPO CARTEL "BOOTLICKS". THANKS, NOW GO AWAY. HAHAHHAAHA dude you're just ****ed you haven't figured a way to be one of your "BPO Gods". You've played for a year and the best you've done is 3 corps with 65 ppl? Thats just sad. You need to actually participate in the politics bub. Eve doesn't have a daycare center so stop acting like a spoiled child. ---------------------
Tien Shan	Posted - 2006.12.04 20:17:00 - [108] Originally by: Mr.Mayhem HAHAHHAAHA dude you're just ****ed you haven't figured a way to be one of your "BPO Gods". Uh, isn't the whole point that he CAN'T become one of the BPO Gods? They have already all been handed out, and the billions and billions of ISK earned... I am pretty new (four months) and had hoped to develop an industrial character--while I'll give it a go with Invention, etc., it doesn't look very promising. The real kicker will be if they implement T3 via Invention requiring a T2 BPO or BPC. At that point if I don't quit EVE altogether I will certainly abandon any illusion of having any opportunity of creating an industrial character with a chance of success.
Boosted	Posted - 2006.12.04 21:00:00 - [109] Simply put, YOU SNOOZE YOU LOSE! You chose not to join this game (whether you heard about it or not, it was here, and you had the option of joining it). So because you failed to get into the game at an early stage you dont get any of the rewards from it. I'm sorry, but that's the truth. Stop *****ing and moaning about something so inconsequential. If you don't like the way the game is played, then stop paying your fees and leave. Or you can do something about it and join up into a corp or recruit players that have t2 BPOs.
Xorena Blastaphart Caldari Signum Malus	Posted - 2006.12.04 22:10:00 - [110] Edited by: Xorena Blastaphart on 04/12/2006 22:16:42 Originally by: Boosted Simply put, YOU SNOOZE YOU LOSE! You chose not to join this game (whether you heard about it or not, it was here, and you had the option of joining it). So because you failed to get into the game at an early stage you dont get any of the rewards from it. Thats about the 2nd dumbest arguement I've ever heard. Its a game, and if new players don't have the same opportunities to grow their characters, in this case I refer to Industrial aspects, as someone thats been in the game since day one .. well, geez, why play at all ? This is the "concept" that CCP has overlooked in the herein discussed T2 BPO issue, a very few have a huge financial advantage over the many, and without hope of every rectifying that short of buying GTC's for resale or outright buying ISK from the macro/ISK farmers. Invention isn't going to cut it in its current state, my previous suggestions allow the playing field to be leveled in this aspect of the game, regardless of when the player began, and allowed for the fair implimentation of T3 when available. What p***'es me off most about CCP in general, is their consistent failure to communicate in a timely manner about the issues brought forward by the players. All thats needed is for one of the developers to join in and tell us "Hey, yeah, <insert issue here> is a problem we're going to work on it". What they really need to do is hire a ecomonics pro as a consultant and have that person review and recommend changes to the so-called "player driven market". Just my 0.02 ISK worth...
Boosted	Posted - 2006.12.04 22:32:00 - [111] A player drivin market will follow typical economic trends.
Khyle Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.04 23:01:00 - [112] Edited by: Khyle on 04/12/2006 23:12:31 As no BPO GOD but more or less small private owner, my 0.2 isk. I own 3 T2 BPOs, including one ship, but no big ticket items(like HACs). Each BPO nets me about 100-150 Million Isk a month. Yes, thats without doing any work at all, so if you consider that unfair, you may be right, but im not your worst enemy :). I buy the minerals and components for the modules in bulk every 3 months and sell only BPCs of the ships instead of manufacturing(too much m3 in components to be convenient, plus flying the ships around). Copying pays quite nicely as people pay premium to be able to produce at home instead of flying finished ships around. Thats 300-450 Million isk a month. So why i am telling you that? I got 16 research agents on one account. All they did the last years was giving me these 3 BPOs with the mentioned income(ok, plus one i sold for a nice amount). For simplicity lets consider all of them being Starship engineering(doesnt change the datacores/day), producing 250 RPs a day on average, thats 4000 RPs a day, or roughly 2.6 datacores a day, 80 per month. So, on one side, if i stick to them for a year longer, maybe i get another few BPOs which probably will net me a few hundred million isk per month. Or i sell 80 Datacores per month. To be profitable compared to the other option lets consider i want to make 240 Million isk per month, starting right now(while i need to wait for BPOs). 240/80 = 3, so with a price of 3 Million isk per Datacore, i make the same profit i would expect from a few BPOs if i got some in the next year, starting right now. Not bad. Even going overtop with 500 Mill a month thats still only 6 Million per datacore. But people will undercut each other a lot, as its so easy and essentially effortless to produce datacores. Personally i wont do that, still hoping for the big ticket item :). But it is viable, f.e. bringing alts up to 5 research agents just for farming and selling datacores. And people really will do it. If you watch all the undercutting going on for available BPOs, you can imagine there will be loads of people doing the same with datacores. Its easy, it has no risks and its absolutely safe, PLUS there is no work involved at all once you have it going(you just make an afk-roundtrip once a week to collect the datacores). If eve taught me one thing its that even the smallest profit margin business is swarmed like hell if its safe and freely available. Just that you consider it too tiresome to cater to your own t2 needs via invention will does not mean that theres nobody who will do it. If you dont believe that, you obviously belong to the wrong demographics, the one trying to be self-sufficient and probably living in 0.0 . Even if you would consider me unlucky in the lottery(not that many BPOs with lots of agents) there will be loads of unlucky people willing to sell datacores. Add to that that quite a lot of people have old agents they want to get rid off in favor of better ones, f.e. level 3 ones with big piles of RPs, in my case even a level 2 one which had Starship Research at 3 at the very beginning, which was nerfed down to 2. So where does "wont go lower than 20 Million" come from? And even 10 Million could cut HAC prices in half. The question is: Why did i spend so much time answering to such a stupid post. Whatever
Slaadi	Posted - 2006.12.05 14:47:00 - [113] Having played MMORPG's for years, Eve's T2 system has never made any sense to me. Before I fully understood the system, how I THOUGHT it worked was: T1 Ships and module BP's are available to anyone in high sec space. T2 BP's you get from research agents after you've spent time working with them. They are limited by the fact that you need materials only available in 0.0 space, leaving T2 equiment only an option to those who dwell in 0.0 or are willing to pay for the materials from someone who does. You need to set up and defend a mining operation in 0.0 if you want T2. Made sense to me. More difficult to obtain but not impossible. Instead I work on my R&D corp faction and start looking for R&D agents only to find nothing will ever come from the research. I stupidly assume they hand out X per month and I just have to wait for them to get restocked. Nope, they handed out everything long before I even heard of the game, teased every now and then by a dev who ponders his navel about re-seeding some T2 BPO's and then nothing happens. Ah! But invention is coming! And they've now backed themselves into a corner. Spend your RP's to maybe get a limited run BPC of T2 equipment... and now if they ever reseed anything their playerbase will go ballistic because they spent their RP's on datacores and sunk their chances at getting a BPO in the lottery! Brilliant move CCP. That or they know damn well no BPO's will ever be reseeded so it will never be an issue. I still held hope that invention was going to mean that you could at least make T2 stuff for yourself or your corp. Either more expensive mineralwise or too long to really be profitable, but a system where at least you could 'invent' that ship or gun or launcher thats either non-existant in the market or stupidly overpriced. Again, NOT to enter the market yourself, but just the ability to make the handful of things you want if you were willing to spend the time. Guess not. Whats the going rate for 15m SP industrial characters?
slothe Caldari Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.12.05 15:12:00 - [114] this thread has degenerated from a thread about invention to ANOTHER thread whining about t2 bpos. if you think invention is so rubbish just start a petition to abolish it thanks. invention, as i see it, was never intended to enable new t2 producers to break into the market, but created for whiners to make t2 items at a lesser cost for themselves, if they spent a bit of time and effort doing so. *Before complaining about any ship try flying Minmatar*
Tachy	Posted - 2006.12.05 15:16:00 - [115] Damn, I just ran out of popcorn AND salt. --==*-- The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait \| 2006.09.20
Paladineguru Gallente DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.05 15:37:00 - [116] Originally by: s73v3n2k Are people just not fed up of threads like this? Invention wasn't ever supposed to be easy in any way and the cost of the datacores has nothing to do with CCP but everything to do with the greedy eve population. With regards to T2 bpos - we have heard it all before please stop these posts. All most people are not willing to admit is that they only want the bpo's for their isk value and not because they want to manufacture the items. Most people promptly sell T2 bpos when they get them. Now wouldn't it be annoying if we all started making posts about why you have never had an officer spawn and every other person has or why should people find rare items and not you. It would just be rediculous. Suggesting things like seeding T2 bpo's on the market is not very clever either because once every man and his dog owns one do you really think they will be profitable anymore? considering the time and effort it takes to build components and then the item people would probably not even bother anymore e.g. a T2 absolution builder can only output around 5-6 units a week and a t2 heavy drone builder can only make 25 units a week. Now i can tell you one thing and that there are many professions in eve more profitable than those. The above is completely untrue, while these numbers may hold for the original bpo few if any manufacuterers produce this way, most will try for multiple copies of a bpo , and / or then put it in a research and copy cycle that eventually ends in them having effectively the ability to build as many as they have factories to afford , so umm stfu cause you dont know what your saying. and the only thing seeding t2 to current makret at above battleship bp t1 prices , would be to provide much needed competition for the current cartel that is controlling t2 prices.
LtCol Killgore	Posted - 2006.12.05 16:20:00 - [117] most people in this thread just seem to be *****ing because they couldn't hop into Jita on the day of Revelations release, buy aload of shiney new science stuff, cash in their LP and after a couple of days in the lab, walk away with a few bil profit in T2 bpcs. CCP probabily made it a slow seeding profession to stop it just instantly favouring the already rich. The real focus of invention is the hidden complexes etc, because until they're all found and publicly listed beyond the point of really needing to scan much, that is where some skill comes into play. any idiot can do courier missions for a month or two then get a set of lvl4 r&d agents, save up the LP and cash it in. The only change to the t2 industry until reverse engineering (whatever that will be)hits is that the corps/lone mofo's that end up farming the complexs will make loadsa cash, probabily buying more datacores from the market and using it all than selling the decryptors and data interfaces. At least with invention you got the chance of killing and taking posetion of the complexs if they're in a corp, or sneaking in during opposite TZ. All you can do with t2 bpo owners is shake your fist and/or cry. i'm actually happy with the way CCP have done invention, cos you cant just do it all afk and make billions like a majority of industry in this game. the people who will make any isk outta this will be the farmers, and fair play to them, cos at least they dont just have to take the components they afk freightered from jita and whack them in an oven. This really just doesn't seem like it was intended to be another 'investment' based industry, and if it was, it'd be just as bad as the t2 bpo industry.
Sayla Starseeker	Posted - 2006.12.05 16:22:00 - [118] I agree with the views of Hayah Theos and the few others that have pointed out that the sheer wealth of the larger BPO2 controlling alliances makes it impossible to compete. I sympathize with anyone who has worked long and hard to build a sandcastle, only to have it removed, or simply having been informed to pack it or lose it. One day, I would like to own a sandcastle or two of my own. The BPO lottery must be redesigned completely. Seeding more BPOs (even many more) is NOT a solution. New players join the game every day, and they are looking at many months of mission running and skill training before they can even begin to accumulate research points.
Doxs Roxs White Wolves Defence league The OSS	Posted - 2006.12.05 16:35:00 - [119] Did anyone actually manage to invent something yet? Regards /Doxs After 9 months, why is my face just a '!' ?
Doxs Roxs White Wolves Defence league The OSS	Posted - 2006.12.05 16:36:00 - [120] Edited by: Doxs Roxs on 05/12/2006 16:37:42 doublepost Regards /Doxs After 9 months, why is my face just a '!' ?

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