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KIAEddZ Caldari KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.11.29 15:54:00 - [1] Edited by: KIAEddZ on 29/11/2006 16:06:20 Is this actually going to be finacially viable.....? The investment in the datacores is huge, even if you get them from your rp agent... 1500 points for a Minmitar Starship Engineering for example. (that is going to equate to at minimum 20 mill a pop even after the market really settles down in a few weeks) I need 8 of those to have a go at producing a Vaga/Munin, thats 160 mill invest. PLus I will need 8 Mechanical Engineering, probs gonna be at least half again.... so 240 invested b4 you even start. Even if you get your chance down to 1 in 4..... you would need a 5 run bpc (60-80 mill per build as they are pretty innefiecient BPCs) you are looking at no real profits over buying those ships at the current 200+ mill market prices. I hope CCP have done thier usual and released the feature pre nerfed, if not then basically it will not effect the T2 ship market at all. Anyone have a differing opinion on this? If so please post, be interested if anyone sees a lighter side to it, and believes it may end up being the T2 solution it was touted as. KIA EVE Home
James Snowscoran Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.29 16:06:00 - [2] It does indeed look prenerfed to me. Essentially, I think the fundamental problem is about the low runs on the bpcs. Lowrun bpcs isn't going to 'provide (...) a way to break into the Tech Level II business, providing market competition' in any meaningful way. The primary use will probably be 0.0 self-sufficiency, which is okay, but apparently not the primary point behind the feature. -----
Drexciyian Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.29 16:24:00 - [3] Dont get why it needs a t2 bpc, yes i understand why but it means the peope who own the BPO can still hold a monopoly and freeze people out. Maybe reverse engineer from the modules/ships themselfs
Aziza Gallente Immobiliare	Posted - 2006.11.29 16:51:00 - [4] Originally by: KIAEddZ Edited by: KIAEddZ on 29/11/2006 16:06:20 Is this actually going to be finacially viable.....? The investment in the datacores is huge, even if you get them from your rp agent... 1500 points for a Minmitar Starship Engineering for example. (that is going to equate to at minimum 20 mill a pop even after the market really settles down in a few weeks) Not with current datacores costs. I can get around 600RP in <insert> Starship Engineering per day from 1 agent. It's 2.5 days per 1 datacore. I won't sell it below 10-15 mil isk per datacore. ------------------------- Thank you
Nyphur Pillowsoft Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.29 16:52:00 - [5] Originally by: Drexciyian Dont get why it needs a t2 bpc, yes i understand why but it means the peope who own the BPO can still hold a monopoly and freeze people out. Maybe reverse engineer from the modules/ships themselfs It's T1 bpcs, not T2. ¼_¼. Eve-Tanking.com - For tanking spreadsheet and resources.
Jaguar Dragon Blood Association of Dragons	Posted - 2006.11.29 18:18:00 - [6] with no invention slots in mobile labs,, at least at this moment and in safe space,, inventions is dead dead dead dead. you can't even get a lab slot for ME. you add all the new players who will be getting into inventions,,inventions slots will become just like the ME slots NOT AVALABLE.so my pos in safe space is only good for mobile labs ME/PE/ copy.. i'm spending BILLIONS for this..and assembly arrays,, there is a hugh amount of npc factories around..and the cost of the new probes,, it will cost more isk in luanching probes than what a t2 bpo holder sells his t2 stuff for,, depending on ship class a small t2 frig,, helios costs a t2 builder 2.3 million... it will cost me more than that in probes just to find SOME deadspace stuff to get SOME stuff needed to just invent this is so wrong,, its just another nerf for us in empire..
solidshot Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.11.29 18:21:00 - [7] From what i've seen invention will suck, and t2 prices wont change at all, in fact they may even go up due to the extra demand on t2 components which bound to be used as an excuse to fleece everyone
Centurin Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.11.29 18:22:00 - [8] Invention was never meant to be useful. They just threw it in to shut the t2 market whiners up (however, it's a legitimate complaint). It's unfortunate, but expected. ----------------------------------------------- "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" - Optimus Prime
Lunadi Minmatar Solar Trade	Posted - 2006.11.29 18:30:00 - [9] Edited by: Lunadi on 29/11/2006 18:31:45 Originally by: Centurin Invention was never meant to be useful. They just threw it in to shut the t2 market whiners up (however, it's a legitimate complaint). It's unfortunate, but expected. Don't think so... 1) there is no need to shut the t2 market whiners (not so many of them anyway) 2) afaik the idea is still to have limited t2 manufacturers, and thus have much higher prices on t2 stuff. What would be the point of t2 if it would be as easily accessible as t1? Invention is not for destroying that balance. 3) imho invention is to make research path more useful. Is it well designed atm? Well... now the changes are on TQ, and we just have to wait to see what will come out... -------- hate my spelling? go play SCRABBLE!
Matori Kar	Posted - 2006.11.29 18:34:00 - [10] Originally by: Lunadi Edited by: Lunadi on 29/11/2006 18:31:45 Originally by: Centurin Invention was never meant to be useful. They just threw it in to shut the t2 market whiners up (however, it's a legitimate complaint). It's unfortunate, but expected. Don't think so... 1) there is no need to shut the t2 market whiners (not so many of them anyway) 2) afaik the idea is still to have limited t2 manufacturers, and thus have much higher prices on t2 stuff. What would be the point of t2 if it would be as easily accessible as t1? Invention is not for destroying that balance. 3) imho invention is to make research path more useful. Is it well designed atm? Well... now the changes are on TQ, and we just have to wait to see what will come out... If you hadn't noticed, T2 is WHAT is being used as a base for balance and not T1....at least two dev quotes about this already... Caldari: Don't have to worry about transversal, falloff/optimal, cap, tracking, how your damage type is being tanked,ship speed, the direction you are moving... etc. Easy Mode w00t!!
Xeliya Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2006.11.29 18:36:00 - [11] Edited by: Xeliya on 29/11/2006 18:37:26 /agreed When I got a few data cores last night I almost cried at how badly this was planned, unless I am going to get a 100 run BPC of Cruise Missiles Launcher 2. It will cost me 18 days worth of RP with lv4 Rocket Science and the best agent + countless other data cores for one try. I hope CCP changes it soon at this was one thing I was really looking forward too ----------
Victor Valka Caldari Archon Industries	Posted - 2006.11.29 18:45:00 - [12] Aren't datacores available through miniprofessions?
Karazaan Rakyra	Posted - 2006.11.29 18:50:00 - [13] Edited by: Karazaan on 29/11/2006 18:51:07 And nobody seen what kind of ME/PE the invented copy will have... It is'nt going to be financially viable until tech 3. [or maybe for HAC...]
Valrandir Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.11.29 18:53:00 - [14] DataCores are in no way going to cost this much. If someone don't want to sell his for less then 15mil each, then fine, he won't sell them at all since many competitors will sell for a lot less. 600RP per agent, per day is a good average. It would take 3 days for one datacore, I can't see them going for much more then 2mil each once the market stabilize. So this take the OP estimate of 240mil down to a mere 24mil. Maybe I should not even bother replying to posts like this. -------------------------------- This has surpassed the Yarrdware specification and has been dubbed Uberware.
Xeliya Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2006.11.29 18:57:00 - [15] Edited by: Xeliya on 29/11/2006 18:57:59 Originally by: Valrandir 600RP per agent, per day is a good average. It would take 3 days for one datacore, I can't see them going for much more then 2mil each once the market stabilize. I would like to know how you get 600RP a day. I get 86.2 with lv4 and a standing above 8 with the best agent I can use, never seen any one over 150 per day. You can add 50% of my RP for a starship engineering job or cut it in half for normal jobs but you can't get much better then going up one more lv in your field which will add 10-20 more rp per day. ----------
Ishmael Hansen No Quarter.	Posted - 2006.11.29 19:20:00 - [16] Starship field gives 3x more rp's then the rest of fields, my highest quality lvl 4 gives me 257 with my skills. There are not that many agents giving that many rp's. So that's 514 rp's per day (doing missions), it can easily reach 600 at lvl 5 skills , on the other hand my Mechanical engineering lvl 4 agent gives me a total of 37 rp's per day, I need 4000 for 8 datacores, do the math.
Valrandir Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.11.29 19:22:00 - [17] Edited by: Valrandir on 29/11/2006 19:23:03 Edited by: Valrandir on 29/11/2006 19:22:51 Originally by: Xeliya Edited by: Xeliya on 29/11/2006 18:57:59 Originally by: Valrandir 600RP per agent, per day is a good average. It would take 3 days for one datacore, I can't see them going for much more then 2mil each once the market stabilize. I would like to know how you get 600RP a day. I get 86.2 with lv4 and a standing above 8 with the best agent I can use, never seen any one over 150 per day. You can add 50% of my RP for a starship engineering job or cut it in half for normal jobs but you can't get much better then going up one more lv in your field which will add 10-20 more rp per day. - Starship Engineering agents give more RP - Use a quality 20 level 4 research agent - Use maxed out social skills, the Negociation affect RP - Boost your standings to boost the effective quality of the agent - Run his daily mission to double the daily RP - Train Research Project Management and have 5 to 6 research agent working for you. Edit: - Train your science skills -------------------------------- This has surpassed the Yarrdware specification and has been dubbed Uberware.
James Demacek	Posted - 2006.11.29 19:25:00 - [18] Originally by: Xeliya Edited by: Xeliya on 29/11/2006 18:57:59 Originally by: Valrandir 600RP per agent, per day is a good average. It would take 3 days for one datacore, I can't see them going for much more then 2mil each once the market stabilize. I would like to know how you get 600RP a day. I get 86.2 with lv4 and a standing above 8 with the best agent I can use, never seen any one over 150 per day. You can add 50% of my RP for a starship engineering job or cut it in half for normal jobs but you can't get much better then going up one more lv in your field which will add 10-20 more rp per day. I get, from four seperate agents, the following amounts of RP per day: 247, 192, 193, 253. For your information, please note that your skill in the field you are researching in a multiplier.
Califax Oman Mining Bytes Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.29 19:27:00 - [19] I was very much looking forward to the T2 invention feature. I understand that currently the market is all kinds of fubar till prices come back down from the roof but to me invention never was going to be a tool to break into the indy market game. I just want to be able to fit a rack of T2 heavy launchers, or maybe a few T2 cruise launchers without selling my first born child on escrow (err contracts now i guess). For the average corp I would think being able to make some of the big T2 guns without paying 14 mil each for them would be awsome. Is this not possible with inventions? Or will the price of the extra stuff you need be too high to even compete on that lvl? http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m283/Mimic-G/Califax-Final.jpg
Ishmael Hansen No Quarter.	Posted - 2006.11.29 20:21:00 - [20] Originally by: Califax Oman I was very much looking forward to the T2 invention feature. I understand that currently the market is all kinds of fubar till prices come back down from the roof but to me invention never was going to be a tool to break into the indy market game. I just want to be able to fit a rack of T2 heavy launchers, or maybe a few T2 cruise launchers without selling my first born child on escrow (err contracts now i guess). For the average corp I would think being able to make some of the big T2 guns without paying 14 mil each for them would be awsome. Is this not possible with inventions? Or will the price of the extra stuff you need be too high to even compete on that lvl? No that will not be possible, you have to sell you first born child to get the components for invention, then if you get unlucky the batch will not work. You will get faster isk for tech 2 large guns and hacs by mining veld in an ibis with a civ mining laser. Tech 2 lobby won again. Kudos
Califax Oman Mining Bytes Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.29 20:28:00 - [21] Well doesn't that suck Best get to making more childrens to auction off then Hey you No Quarter guys are not leaving Syndicate are you? I was gonna invent more stuff to pew pew you with :p http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m283/Mimic-G/Califax-Final.jpg
KIAEddZ Caldari KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.11.29 22:50:00 - [22] I'm not seeing many positive posts here :( KIA EVE Home
kahle Paralex Research	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:18:00 - [23] Originally by: KIAEddZ I'm not seeing many positive posts here :( a brand new game mechanic, not even a day old. i'm sure this is exactly how it will stay
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:31:00 - [24] Originally by: solidshot From what i've seen invention will suck, and t2 prices wont change at all, in fact they may even go up due to the extra demand on t2 components which bound to be used as an excuse to fleece everyone That would be the one thing that would make me quit EVE for another MMORPG. I'm already tired of paying 10 million isk for a cruiser missile launcher. I'd rather play a game where I don't have to farm for 20 hours to PvP for 1 hour.
Ishmael Hansen No Quarter.	Posted - 2006.11.30 01:01:00 - [25] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: solidshot From what i've seen invention will suck, and t2 prices wont change at all, in fact they may even go up due to the extra demand on t2 components which bound to be used as an excuse to fleece everyone That would be the one thing that would make me quit EVE for another MMORPG. I'm already tired of paying 10 million isk for a cruiser missile launcher. I'd rather play a game where I don't have to farm for 20 hours to PvP for 1 hour. Yeah, for 2 years that every patch that comes out I pray for r&d to be changed. Many been talked about it, before Shiva (Exodus) ccp developed agent offers, that were suposed to go to r&d agents (from some dev blog), but never saw day light and went to regular agents instead. Patch after patch ccp been delaying a fix, tech 2 market is fubered, 17m for a large gun or 250m for something that costs 17m to make is not fair, it would be if you had to "invent" it, not had some luck in a ticked, which seems to be borked also as they tend to go to the same "random" player. But seems that the tech 2 lobby is even more powerfull then the inty one, for every post tha reaches eve-o they come out with their forum warriors giving speeches about economy, demand and offer and such, and that they have to work for the isk. No they don't, they got lucky in a draw, with the isk earned they buy GTC's for industry alts and such, and rip us out. (yeah, I know, some tech 2 bpos don't give as much isk as Hac's, etc) With invention I was hoping for a fix, well actually I wasn't, as I stated in ships and modules threads, if ccp hadn't nerfed the drake it would fix the cerb/NH market. But was actually hoping to be able to try and "invent" a tech 2 cruiser and his modules, but as it stands I need an army of alts doing research to get the needed datacores, which will only benefit people with plenty of alts doing that already (that are the same with the tech 2 bpos). Anyway, at least I hope it fixes lag, more alts = more isk in ccp pocket = more nodes I'm truly sad and for the first time thinking on leaving this game :(
Bigoleed	Posted - 2006.11.30 01:23:00 - [26] T2 Market is crap - Seed T2 BPOs again - heavily - and let us invent T3. Seriously.
Ishmael Hansen No Quarter.	Posted - 2006.11.30 01:30:00 - [27] Originally by: Bigoleed T2 Market is crap - Seed T2 BPOs again - heavily - and let us invent T3. Seriously. Wont work, when the already tech 2 owners will wave 60b for the new bpos everyone will sell and they will end up in the same hands.
Bigoleed	Posted - 2006.11.30 01:40:00 - [28] Edited by: Bigoleed on 30/11/2006 01:41:03 Note heavily - meaning anyone who actually wanted to spend the effort T2 manufacturing would be able to get a stake in it. Right now I am pretty effin ***ed off and was looking very forward in being able to actually become a manufacturer rather than reselling T2. They need to seriously consider this T2 mess. I'm hot over a long awaited and overdue half arsed fix...and thinking about canceling my accounts as well.
Miss Overlord Gallente Ferrum Pugnus	Posted - 2006.11.30 01:45:00 - [29] cant u get datacores from the hidden plexes in high low and 0.0 sec anyway ? These posts represent my personal views and not those of my corp or alliance. These do not reflect offical alliance or corp views This is a disclaimer
Caldan Tarus	Posted - 2006.11.30 01:45:00 - [30] Originally by: Valrandir Edited by: Valrandir on 29/11/2006 19:23:03 Edited by: Valrandir on 29/11/2006 19:22:51 Originally by: Xeliya Edited by: Xeliya on 29/11/2006 18:57:59 Originally by: Valrandir 600RP per agent, per day is a good average. It would take 3 days for one datacore, I can't see them going for much more then 2mil each once the market stabilize. I would like to know how you get 600RP a day. I get 86.2 with lv4 and a standing above 8 with the best agent I can use, never seen any one over 150 per day. You can add 50% of my RP for a starship engineering job or cut it in half for normal jobs but you can't get much better then going up one more lv in your field which will add 10-20 more rp per day. - Starship Engineering agents give more RP - Use a quality 20 level 4 research agent - Use maxed out social skills, the Negociation affect RP - Boost your standings to boost the effective quality of the agent - Run his daily mission to double the daily RP - Train Research Project Management and have 5 to 6 research agent working for you. Edit: - Train your science skills And after all that sell your datacores for 2 mil as Valrandir says ......
Miss Overlord Gallente Ferrum Pugnus	Posted - 2006.11.30 01:47:00 - [31] i still think CCP might adapt the system if its to borked - perhaps 1-3% of battleship wrecks could drop em as well ? or regular agents giving em as LP rewards These posts represent my personal views and not those of my corp or alliance. These do not reflect offical alliance or corp views This is a disclaimer
Ee33k	Posted - 2006.11.30 01:55:00 - [32] * to those who plan on leaving over this feature (and because noone else asked yet): can I have your stuff?
Daos Leghki Paxton Industries	Posted - 2006.11.30 02:00:00 - [33] Edited by: Daos Leghki on 30/11/2006 02:02:18 I like invention. It lets people enter the market and make ISK, but the marginal production costs increase as you make more (can't just cash in all your RP for datacores). It allows the market to stabilize, and makes T2 act like a real world market, where supply and demand are not artificially capped. The reason that people are whining is because they are upset that the profitability on invention is lower than on T2 BPOs. This is supposed to be this way, and will always be this way. If you can make ISK on T2 production using Invention do it. If you can't, don't. The price will still be high because the cost of production is high. Consider the datacores, interfaces and whatever as additional cost of production. I think people did not realize what Invention was going to be. They thought it was going to be a godsend for everyone and it was suddenly going to start raining HACs and T2 Cap Rechargers for everyone. It's not. Invention makes the T2 market act much like the real market and THAT'S IT. It means thet T2 will still be expensive, but as the population rises, the price of T2 will not rise with it. Sure you might hate to pay 300 mil for a HAC, but aren't you glad you will never have to pay more? The problems with Invention as I see them are as follows: 1. Not all items are inventable. Ammo, Drones, Barges, Cloaks (I'm not sure this is inventable) and all other T2 modules should be inventable. 2. People whine too much about not getting easy ISK. Yes, you missed out on the T2 lottery. Get over it. Invention should fix the prices and if you want, you'll have to work for your ISK like the rest of Eve. Finally, I'll add a disclaimer. I do not own any T2 BPOs. I hate paying 200 ISK/round for Barrage S. I do not plan to own HACs in the near future because I see them as too expensive and not cost efficient. PS- And, I'd love it if they got rid of T2 BPOs in general. Repopulate Low-Sec Paxton Industries is Recruiting
Bigoleed	Posted - 2006.11.30 02:12:00 - [34] Edited by: Bigoleed on 30/11/2006 02:17:37 ^^ umm no you miss the point completely and most likely don't even enjoy logistics/trading/indsutry this is more than a whine....there is this really neat fix a lot of us have been waiting a LONG time for - here is the results of the fix : You spend a tonne of time and effort and will still get undercut by the T2 mafias. The time you spend with this whacked T2 system - making T2 - is easily undercut by those putting a fraction of the effort. A small percent of the population have a huge advantage is bogus - it is economically huge and it affects everyone becuase the MAJORITY of the wealth in this PVP game is held by a minority that can control other resources due to having ISK printing machines. The T2 market was a mistake and it needs to be fixed cause this is PVP game and ISK is everything. Edit - It is not about getting easy ISK - it is about BALANCING ISK across the game.
KIAEddZ Caldari KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.11.30 02:36:00 - [35] Originally by: Daos Leghki Edited by: Daos Leghki on 30/11/2006 02:02:18 I like invention. It lets people enter the market and make ISK, but the marginal production costs increase as you make more (can't just cash in all your RP for datacores). It allows the market to stabilize, and makes T2 act like a real world market, where supply and demand are not artificially capped. The reason that people are whining is because they are upset that the profitability on invention is lower than on T2 BPOs. This is supposed to be this way, and will always be this way. If you can make ISK on T2 production using Invention do it. If you can't, don't. The price will still be high because the cost of production is high. Consider the datacores, interfaces and whatever as additional cost of production. I think people did not realize what Invention was going to be. They thought it was going to be a godsend for everyone and it was suddenly going to start raining HACs and T2 Cap Rechargers for everyone. It's not. Invention makes the T2 market act much like the real market and THAT'S IT. It means thet T2 will still be expensive, but as the population rises, the price of T2 will not rise with it. Sure you might hate to pay 300 mil for a HAC, but aren't you glad you will never have to pay more? The problems with Invention as I see them are as follows: 1. Not all items are inventable. Ammo, Drones, Barges, Cloaks (I'm not sure this is inventable) and all other T2 modules should be inventable. 2. People whine too much about not getting easy ISK. Yes, you missed out on the T2 lottery. Get over it. Invention should fix the prices and if you want, you'll have to work for your ISK like the rest of Eve. Finally, I'll add a disclaimer. I do not own any T2 BPOs. I hate paying 200 ISK/round for Barrage S. I do not plan to own HACs in the near future because I see them as too expensive and not cost efficient. PS- And, I'd love it if they got rid of T2 BPOs in general. I think you missed the point by some way. KIA EVE Home
Father Weebles Wreckless Abandon The UnAssociated	Posted - 2006.11.30 02:42:00 - [36] Edited by: Father Weebles on 30/11/2006 02:46:58 Edited by: Father Weebles on 30/11/2006 02:45:49 Since when did anybody ask for free hacs and large tech2 guns? are you serious? I'm speaking for myself when I say tech2 is borked. There's no way of getting tech2 cheaper than on the market unless you're connected or in a big pvp alliance. People say "dont buy it" as to limit demand....but thats f'd up too considering everyday more people get skils to use tech2 stuff, so overall its pointless because no matter what I do tech2 prices will still go up. Thats what ****es everybody off. There's nothing you can do except watch tech2 prices go up and up and up and up without any chance of stopping price surges. CCP should seed 25 BPOs of each tech2 ship on market and 25 in R@D. For the market seedings... Tech2 Frig BPOs start at 5 billion and up to 12 billion for the most wanted tech2 frigs aka crow/ishkur Tech2 Cruisers BPOs start from 12 and go up to 25 billion isk for the most wanted bpos Command Ships between 10-20 per bpo. That should quell most of the fckin resellers at least. Probably a crappy idea or one thats been mentioned a billion times, ah well. "Welcome to EVE, where inflation is out of control."
Bigoleed	Posted - 2006.11.30 02:48:00 - [37] Yes - I don't think some people understand the magnitude of the ISK issue - frankly I could blow up a T2/faction fitted HAC daily for a few months - and I'm sure plenty others could waste more ISK - but that isn't the point.
Ray McCormack BIG	Posted - 2006.11.30 02:54:00 - [38] Invention will not burst the Tech II bubble, it's just another access route to it. The market will stabilise, people will sell their datacores for what they're worth, and people will buy datacores for what they're worth. And interfaces will filter slowly down the market streams, but they'll defnitely reach a sustainable level as more people delve into the new professions. \| BMBE ISK Loans \| the all mighty BIG industrial corp from hell with a slong the size of a walrus...
Ishmael Hansen No Quarter.	Posted - 2006.11.30 03:56:00 - [39] Bottom line is, you need an army of alts doing research to get all the amount of datacores. More alts = more isk in CCP's pocket
Xorena Blastaphart Caldari Signum Malus	Posted - 2006.11.30 04:07:00 - [40] Invention is totally borked, and in its current state will remain so. Sure people will try it out, but its not going to work, its high cost and chance based for a BPC of unknown quality and runs (so far as I know it to be now). As it stands, the current T2 fiasco is unfair to current players and any new player joining EVE, and I wish CCP would wake up, acknowledge that simple fact and cure the problem once and for all. And their is a fair way to fix it, using Invention, make it hard, very hard, make it expensive, but not too expensive ... and a long process, introduce an element of chance, albiet a fair one, with the result being a T2 BPO. Use the same concept for production of T3 BPO's when they are to be introduced .. After all, isn't this what the word "Invention" implies? This gives the current T2 monoploy a bit a breathing room, and slowly but surely levels the playing field for all industrial players. What a concept .. why its almost "real world" ...
Daos Leghki Paxton Industries	Posted - 2006.11.30 04:36:00 - [41] Edited by: Daos Leghki on 30/11/2006 04:39:01 Before you think I don't enjoy industry, I invite you to look just below my name. There you will see my corp. To be honest, the whole idea of a T2 BPO is bad, in my opinion, and I'd love to get rid of them. They won't but it'd be nice. Invention MAY not be economically viable right now. I think it is, but I could be wrong. The point is that as a system, it will become economically viable when the ability of T2 BPO holders to meet demand drops low enough, and prices rise high enough that it will be profitable. I honestly think that you all are whining too much. You're complaining that you're not getting ENOUGH for your RP. You've got an opportunity to make ISK, and it IS difficult. But, you don't have to do it, no one said "invention's out, everyone can only make ISK doing invention." I thought for a while that invention was going to cost too many RP. Then, I realized that the RP cost only changes the slope of the supply curve and the equilibrium price. If you can't make enough profit to sell your HAC at 100 mil, that's fine. If it rises to 500 mil, that's fine too. Because, at that point, the price will stabilize. Sure, the T2 BPO owners can undercut you, but they won't. It's in their interest to keep prices as high as possible, because they can only make so many T2 goodies, and the more ISK they get per sale, the more they get in profit. PS- I'll add that if you'll search for my name, you'll notice I was against the T2 monopoly and was pushing for almost exactly this kind of change a few months ago. T2 BPOs are a stupid idea, and reward people for being lucky. Repopulate Low-Sec Paxton Industries is Recruiting
Ishmael Hansen No Quarter.	Posted - 2006.11.30 04:43:00 - [42] Originally by: Daos Leghki Edited by: Daos Leghki on 30/11/2006 04:39:01 Before you think I don't enjoy industry, I invite you to look just below my name. There you will see my corp. To be honest, the whole idea of a T2 BPO is bad, in my opinion, and I'd love to get rid of them. They won't but it'd be nice. Invention MAY not be economically viable right now. I think it is, but I could be wrong. The point is that as a system, it will become economically viable when the ability of T2 BPO holders to meet demand drops low enough, and prices rise high enough that it will be profitable. I honestly think that you all are whining too much. You're complaining that you're not getting ENOUGH for your RP. You've got an opportunity to make ISK, and it IS difficult. But, you don't have to do it, no one said "invention's out, everyone can only make ISK doing invention." I thought for a while that invention was going to cost too many RP. Then, I realized that the RP cost only changes the slope of the supply curve and the equilibrium price. If you can't make enough profit to sell your HAC at 100 mil, that's fine. If it rises to 500 mil, that's fine too. Because, at that point, the price will stabilize. Sure, the T2 BPO owners can undercut you, but they won't. It's in their interest to keep prices as high as possible, because they can only make so many T2 goodies, and the more ISK they get per sale, the more they get in profit. PS- I'll add that if you'll search for my name, you'll notice I was against the T2 monopoly and was pushing for almost exactly this kind of change a few months ago. T2 BPOs are a stupid idea, and reward people for being lucky. I don't wanna sell hacs for 500m, I wanna be able to build them for something that is somewhat similar to the tech 2 bpo prodution cost, which is around 17/27m (I don't even bother if I waste 100m on it), but that isn't happening nor it will.
Crystalyne	Posted - 2006.11.30 04:44:00 - [43] two comments here .. 1) I'm not sure that the intention of Invention was to impact the T2 market but rather to encourage players to embark on a specific profession by which they could "build" their own T2 solutions. Admittedly expensive and chancy solutions but less than the T2 BPO driven market. 2) CCP could solve the T2 market stranglehold by making RP directly exchangable for BPCs rather than the chance invention based system. A 5 run BPC for instance for 100,000 RP. Then with more BPCs hitting the market that would put a dent in T2 costs and free up the secondary market as T2 manufacturers aren't currently incented to ME thier BPOs and release/sell BPCs. I see this like the faction BPCs given out from Missions agents. But until then .. I'm going to trade in my RP on a regular basis .. try the invention stuff for myself and see what I get. Cheers
xeom Veto.	Posted - 2006.11.30 04:54:00 - [44] Remeber kids your not always going to get a BPC back sometimes it fails and you lost quite a bit of isk. Good job CCP you did absolutly nothing! --- "Those nuclear missiles are for domestic heating." - Scagga
Cethrie Celestial Fleet Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.30 06:11:00 - [45] Its borked.. * Insane start up costs, skills (remember those lovely encryption skills that cost 200mil that you don't need if you have a T2 BPO) and items (none of which the T2 BPO holders had to pay). * Your research points are going down and you wont have enough to sustain any sort of long term production. Hence the T2 BPO holders retain their stake in the lottery which is going to be reseeded. Making you less likely to be able to get a BPO and them more likely. Yay! For making a system where people making effort to play the game are not rewarded. * Invented items cost more to build and take significantly longer (remember to factor in the time it takes to invent the BPC). * Limited invention slots. So you need to compete against other inventors. * Chance of failure. If you fail to produce once, it might take you multiple "invents" to recover. Advantages given to the BPO owners: * No need to wait to invention job. I would suggest that the BPO produce is producing twice the number of items, that an inventor would. Could he actually guarentee * No need to have the datacores. Well less cost, lets not mention the loss of RP's means inventors are less likely to recieve a T2 BPO. * No need to purchase or spend hours finding the items required for invention. * Their BPO's are more efficient by default. Hmm.. so not only did the T2 BPO holders get a huge amount of time to milk their BPO. They are then given a huge advantage in the actual competition of actually having to compete with the inventors. Obviously CCP feels T2 BPO holders are extremely hard done by. Nice work CCP .. lets congratulate you on driving forward to correct the T2 mistake and produce a market that is player driven. Instead of breaking the t2 market and going whoops, then correcting invention. You just make it only for the hobbist.. who decides he wants a change in his eve life. Its not a system that promotes interaction. It doesn't promote conflict. It just promotes the T2 BPO holders griefing anyone who may work out some system to work your broken system.
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2006.11.30 07:08:00 - [46] This may have been answered but I really don't have time to go trough all the whining to find out. As it's a small and easy question, I'll just ask: If I'm inventing for a given module or ship, I need the t1 bpo. So if the t1 bpo used is licensed for 500 runs, the resulting t2 bpo will also be licensed for 500 runs? If the answer is yes, the whole invention thing can be profitable. If the answer is no...
Daos Leghki Paxton Industries	Posted - 2006.11.30 07:31:00 - [47] Edited by: Daos Leghki on 30/11/2006 07:34:18 Originally by: Ishmael Hansen I don't wanna sell hacs for 500m, I wanna be able to build them for something that is somewhat similar to the tech 2 bpo prodution cost, which is around 17/27m (I don't even bother if I waste 100m on it), but that isn't happening nor it will. Nor should it. The point isn't to make HACs cheap, it's to make competition set prices. There's two problems here. Making T2 items is hard with Invention. I don't think this is an issue here. What you said in the part that I quoted above is that you want more ISK. That's all. The second part is that some people can make T2 easier. I agree that this is unfair and sucks royally. But, it doesn't break the system. What you're doing here is saying "I don't get enough ISK out of this to produce, so the system is broken." The system isn't broken, you just happen to value your time at more ISK than this system will give you. That's fine, everyone has a different threshold. I guarantee you there's gonna be some guys out there that are going to Invent HACs for a net profit of 10-20 mil. There's also going to be guys that won't enter the market unless the profitability is 100 mil/HAC. Congratulations, we have an upward sloping supply curve PS.-The chance of success is simply another cost of doing business. In the long run, if you've a 50% chance of success, just double the number of datacores needed for your cost calculations. Again, what you're saying is akin to saying "mining veld is broken, you need a covetor before you get anything above 1 mil/hour, and you can never make the same as someone mining Ark in 0.0" Well, you can go and get some Ark (buy a BPO) or you can sit and mine Veld. That doesn't mean it's broken, and it doesn't mean there aren't people who are going to do it. Repopulate Low-Sec Paxton Industries is Recruiting
Aphotic Raven Gallente Spectral Armada Eternal Empire	Posted - 2006.11.30 08:19:00 - [48] Yeah... for a while i was actually excited about the carebear side of eve (never produced anything... spent like 3 hours mining...) because i want an ishtar.. or a load of ishkurs... but the system seems to have screwed us over, and if what people are saying about prices (it will probably be extremely difficult to get everything yourself... you may need to find half/buy half) is true then the end result of a vaga will be similar to market prices now. The problem with this is not that you cant save much money.. but that the vaga is really over expensive... so even if you make your own and a bunch of others do the same, the ***** who owns the BPO will just drop his price a bit, and then we're all screwed. Seriously all i want is to make some friggin ishkurs and not spend 45 hours doing it. If its faster/easier to Rat or mission to get the cash for a massively overpriced T2 ship (ishkur sells for 25 mil now.. i remember the days when it went for 12... the days before i had frig 5 ) then why bother with invention at all CCP? make it easy. Look at the base price of the ishkur. it should be double that at most to invent one. Make. It. Easy. Quote: Melicien Tetro: I tried to fight a shark with a pistol underwater once, and I'll be ed if he didn't laugh at me and eat me. Sharks need a ***** nerf. True story
Daegrath	Posted - 2006.11.30 08:38:00 - [49] The invention system is fundamentally flawed. You need datacores to invent that are not related to what you want to invent. Most people want to create starships, yet all starship inventions require mechanical engineering. Who's bothering to research mechanical engineering? Not to mention, that's only 1 field of research yet there are 4 starship fields. The system isn't going to work in it's current form. Data cores are too rare and too much of a pain to get. You can only get 4 per day per agent. Let people cash in more RP's and let the market figure out the value. Make all of the associated skills easier to obtain. Make the data interfaces easier to obtain.
Senzationescu DDTV	Posted - 2006.11.30 08:46:00 - [50] just an idea i have ..the invetions should give 0.n (0.3) chance of getting an BPO , and the BPO resulting from invetion should have tiwce as worse ME than a original BPO.This way can keep a fair price.
Vasiliyan PAX Interstellar Services Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.30 09:27:00 - [51] Has anyone actually sucessfully invented anything yet, even on the test server?
Vandervecken Smith Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.30 09:40:00 - [52] Here's another major issue, I already posted this in Missions, but will repost here: Looking at Invention, ship invention will require equal numbers racial cores plus Mech Eng cores. Racial cores have lots of agents, but Mech Eng agents are EXTREMELY rare. Is this bottlneck intentional? An oversight? Where can we find Mech Eng cores? My corp wants to get in on Gallente Invention, we have all 3 R&D corps covered (Roden, Duvolle, CreoDron). There are no Mech Eng capable agents, of any level, in Gallente research. There are a few in other races, but it's not fair to Gallente that they can't invent Gallente HACs with Gallente agents.
Le Pecarosh	Posted - 2006.11.30 09:49:00 - [53] Originally by: Daos Leghki The reason that people are whining is because they are upset that the profitability on invention is lower than on T2 BPOs. You can't read, it seems. You won EVE.
maarud Einherjar Incorporated Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.30 09:52:00 - [54] I suppose it all depends on how many runs you get. I'd like to see module runs be like 20-30, ships should be around 5-10, this might make it worth while. Maarud. Proudly a Ex-BYDI member
Daos Leghki Paxton Industries	Posted - 2006.11.30 10:23:00 - [55] Edited by: Daos Leghki on 30/11/2006 10:25:29 Originally by: Le Pecarosh Originally by: Daos Leghki The reason that people are whining is because they are upset that the profitability on invention is lower than on T2 BPOs. You can't read, it seems. You won EVE. If I can't read, please explain. Simple insulting statements get us nowhere. I'd love to understand your point of view, but I'm just not seeing it. Again, I'll explain what I'm trying to say. The prices of HACs are intended to be this high. And for the last time, what crazy T2 BPO owner is going to LOWER his prices? His production doesn't scale with price, it's in his best interest to increase price to the point where he just sells every one of his ships/modules. If he drops the price, he drops profit. Come on people, supply and demand. Stop thinking about how hard invention is, and start thinking about the whole thing as a system. It's not "waa, I can't get a Vaga for 100 mil," it's "I can make five Vaga's a day at 50 mil profit." EDITThe problem before Invention wasn't that HAC prices were high, it was that HAC supply was artificially capped and the high prices were just a reflection of that. Now, if there's room for 500 Vagas/month at 500mil a piece, that's what will happen. The Mechenical Engineering Datacores bottleneck looks troubling though, because it's an artificial limit to supply. Repopulate Low-Sec Paxton Industries is Recruiting
maarud Einherjar Incorporated Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.30 10:36:00 - [56] Originally by: Daos Leghki Stop thinking about how hard invention is, and start thinking about the whole thing as a system. It's not "waa, I can't get a Vaga for 100 mil," it's "I can make five Vaga's a day at 50 mil profit." EDITThe problem before Invention wasn't that HAC prices were high, it was that HAC supply was artificially capped and the high prices were just a reflection of that. Now, if there's room for 500 Vagas/month at 500mil a piece, that's what will happen. The Mechenical Engineering Datacores bottleneck looks troubling though, because it's an artificial limit to supply. While I understand what you are saying, the problem comes in when more and more players start doing this. The T2 BPO owners will see less sales, cause they are being undercut by 0.01 ISK by some invention guys. So he drops his price. This will happen to a point where it's not viable to create ships with invention anymore. Also, T2 ships were never meant to be this expensive, a dev (oveur I think) said, that its probably about T2 became the norm. "The norm" in my books does not mean 220mil per cruiser, that now in kali, is not that "leet", due to the fact that it didn't get a huge HP increase like the rest of the ships. Invention was created cause people were bicthing that T2 was about luck. You got a R&D agent and just let the RP stack up, one day if you were lucky, you got a T2 BPO and then you became rich from very little effort on your behalf. With invention it was suppose to give people a chance to really work to get into the T2 market, atm, it doesn't look like its a viable choice. Unless things change slightly, this new profession (or mini profession) of R&D will become another bounty hunting... Maarud. Proudly a Ex-BYDI member
RaTTuS BIG R i s e	Posted - 2006.11.30 10:42:00 - [57] Originally by: Jaguar Dragon with no invention slots in mobile labs,, well - I know of an empire POS that added some more Labs yesterday - and those labs have invention slots - only the ones from before the patch did not. -- BIG Lottery, BIG Deal \| RaTTuS @ Skills Showroom
Madboy Minmatar Mentally Unstable Enterprises	Posted - 2006.11.30 10:43:00 - [58] Bugger, I seriously hope that the invention system is pre-nerfed. For a corp that does what we do. ;) Saving a little money on T2 ships and modules could make a very big difference. - MadBoy
Rorix Whitecloud Caldari Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.30 11:01:00 - [59] People complaining about Datacore and its RP requirements... did you guys actually read the patch notes and the related links? Originally by: TomB Invention is one of most ground-braking mechanic coming in Revelations which will be expanding the science & industry genre and allow all players to participate in the T2 industry. Inventing To invent a T2 version of an item you will need: Blueprint Copy Datacores Data Interface Optional: Decryptor Then simply start the inventing as any other science & industry job. The decryptor is one of the main things for invention, as there are multiple variants and all of them have different types of effects for inventing. For example one might give many runs but have low chance - while another has high chance, low runs and very bad mineral efficiency. Inventional In Revelations there will be the possibility of inventing: modules, ships and rigs. Charges and drones will not be supported for invention until another patch/update. Resources Research Agents: Datacores can be bought of research agents for research points. There is how ever a max limit per day how ever to prevent the market flooding with datacores in the first days of Invention. Exploration: Various scenarios will have the same datacores retrieved from research agents. But decryptors and material to build data interfaces will also be available from these. TomB Lead Designer EVE Online Since Datacores can be obtained through alternate methods that potentially has unlimited supply, i dont think it'll be nearly as expensive as you all make it out to be... it'll probably be rather farmed. Repopulate Low Security! Goal: To blaster-fit every Caldari ship with a gun slot! :D
Xaildaine	Posted - 2006.11.30 11:20:00 - [60] there is no way that the system is finished. If this is CCPs finished invention system we are all wasteing our time. My hope is that over the next month the system will be tweeked into a useable and VIABLE form of T2 production for the market. Atm its not and infact it works against you. Why would you sell a lotto ticket for 20c if in a few months it could win you $65 billion, or in eve terms get you the right to print isk for a life time... T2 bpos are a very bad idea and i know it would be unpopular but id love to see all current T2 bpos turned into bpcs and for the rp agents to seed bpcs evey month via the lotto... if it has to be a lotto. T2 bpos not only break the t2 market by makeing manopolys but they now also break invention. Its time for them to go
maarud Einherjar Incorporated Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.30 11:45:00 - [61] over the next month, ppl will start using it. Invention was only starting to be tested the last couple days before Kali went live... no one has tested it, no one knows how it works, no one has really tried and tested the exploration side... It's a bit of a joke really. Maarud. Proudly a Ex-BYDI member
slothe Caldari Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.30 12:10:00 - [62] Edited by: slothe on 30/11/2006 12:15:12 so if i have 60000 rp in my research agent how many datacores can i get from him? anyone care to explain how this is meant to work, i read the comment above but am still kindof clueless. *Before complaining about any ship try flying Minmatar*
maarud Einherjar Incorporated Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.30 12:16:00 - [63] Originally by: slothe so if i have 60000 rp in my research agent how many datacores can i get from him? for starship engineering (1500 per datacore), 40 datacores for other fields (500 per datacore), 120 datacores Maarud. Proudly a Ex-BYDI member
Crazy Smith	Posted - 2006.11.30 12:52:00 - [64] After reading this thread, my name isn't taken from the wind... I feel crazy. I'm crazy. Why In the world I should continue my subscription for the next few months? To get excrement shoveled into my pod on every step? Why dont eve just split into 2 player sides and take out small businesses altogether? All I hear that macro miner that, macro grinding this. This corp is denying people from complex etc. I made a concious choice of making a science/industry character. glorious promises of changes in the game. All those nice features on the drawing board and in development. Nice pictures painted on the horizon. what to do? go for suicide pvp? build 1000 frigs and just go kamikaze until isk run out? Was that enough ranting and raving like a loonatic? Oh the point I meant to say. Where are the facts? Everything about inventions are rumours and heresay. Well I dont have buddies in devs/coders in CCP. where to find information about invention? logical place could be the NPC R&D agents. Is there information available? NO. there is a buy datacore button. And very true point. there are only four (4) mechanical engineering agents in the game. in the whole universe. How weird is that?
Iyanah Minmatar Mining Munitions and Mayhem	Posted - 2006.11.30 13:39:00 - [65] Originally by: James Snowscoran It does indeed look prenerfed to me. Essentially, I think the fundamental problem is about the low runs on the bpcs. Lowrun bpcs isn't going to 'provide (...) a way to break into the Tech Level II business, providing market competition' in any meaningful way. The primary use will probably be 0.0 self-sufficiency, which is okay, but apparently not the primary point behind the feature. indeed. i think the un-nerfing could be as simple as making the datacores what? 40%-50% cheaper (by increasing ease of aquiring them - greater supply to same demand = lower price). this would make the proffit margins better, whilst still keeping the BPO guys safe in their ivory towers. ========================================== Iy
Sykosys Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.11.30 13:54:00 - [66] To those complaining about Mech eng agents, they are part of minmatar R&D Corps and there are plenty of them. Has anyone actually been able to Invent anything though?? Also When will the problem with Mobile labs setup before revelations not having invention slots be fixed?
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2006.11.30 14:40:00 - [67] Originally by: Aphotic Raven If its faster/easier to Rat or mission to get the cash for a massively overpriced T2 ship (ishkur sells for 25 mil now.. i remember the days when it went for 12... the days before i had frig 5 ) then why bother with invention at all CCP? make it easy. This is the problem i see, most people will just say screw it, its a pain in the but, i might get unlucky and waste a ton of time (the chance factor for me is a bit ridiculous, make the chance part only reflect how many runs and quality, but not a complete failure and waste of time). Most people that want to get into tech 2 production will probably just leave their R&D points and not waste on Invention and hope for BPO. The fact that being an inventor and playing the game, decreases your chances of breaking into the BPO market is also a bit ridiculous. Maybe add in two different point systems for R&D, one for the lottery and 1 for Invention.
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2006.11.30 14:44:00 - [68] Edited by: Serapis Aote on 30/11/2006 14:45:41 Edited by: Serapis Aote on 30/11/2006 14:45:12 Originally by: Aphotic Raven If its faster/easier to Rat or mission to get the cash for a massively overpriced T2 ship (ishkur sells for 25 mil now.. i remember the days when it went for 12... the days before i had frig 5 ) then why bother with invention at all CCP? make it easy. This is the problem i see, most people will just say screw it, i can make more isk/hour doing something else, and know there will be a payoff, then i can go buy a hac. If it is a pain in the but alot of people will just not do it, i might get unlucky and waste a ton of time (the chance factor for me is a bit ridiculous, make the chance part only reflect how many runs and quality, but not a complete failure and waste of time). Most people that want to get into tech 2 production will probably just leave their R&D points and not waste on Invention and hope for BPO. The fact that being an inventor and playing the game, decreases your chances of breaking into the BPO market is also a bit ridiculous. Maybe add in two different point systems for R&D, one for the lottery and 1 for Invention.
Hajyt	Posted - 2006.11.30 14:57:00 - [69] Should have just added a patent system... People who got the t2 BPO could do so for 3-6 months without fear...then the BPO would become public domain (ie every week another t2 BPO of that type is handed out.) In that 3-6 months they could make quite a bit of money for just being the lucky person in a lottery. Once more people start having the BPO, they won't be able to continue their price gouging, but could still make a profit. Chances you'll ever see this? .01% Why? Probably too far down **** creek to paddle back. Also current t2 BPO owners would whine too much.
xeom Veto.	Posted - 2006.11.30 16:08:00 - [70] So has anybody been able to invent anything yet? --- "Those nuclear missiles are for domestic heating." - Scagga
Ishmael Hansen No Quarter.	Posted - 2006.11.30 18:57:00 - [71] I wanna invent market caps, items can't be sold above 100% profit.
Jaguar Dragon Blood Association of Dragons	Posted - 2006.11.30 21:01:00 - [72] I'D like to mention one thing your all forgeting TECH-3 ccp has mentioned it,many times. t3 will only become available through invention and more than likely only if you have a TECH 2 BPO at present the t2 bpo's are mostly in the hands of a few compared to the over all numbers of t2 bpo's that are out there. those players will completly control t3 and prices will be out of this game. all the while invention is so costly and time consuming its a total waist of time. your all forgetting the decrytors and data interfaces. these can only be found through exploration, without these your bpc will be very short run and ME/realy bad. they also increase your chance of a succesful invention. instead of a total loss. plus the invention lab slots. AVAILABILTY probe costs and time to find the stuff in deadspace. just how many probes your going to launch to find 1 deadspace object. before kali came out with patch notes ccp gm [forget his name] posted a blog that said EVERY SYSTEM IN EVE WILL HAVE 10 DEADSPACE PLACES to find and explore. the post kali info says,in each system there is a few and maybe none. just how much time and money am i to spend to get a final product that in my opinion will cost the inventor, a over cost of more than the t2 bpo holders selling price, for what ever t2 bpo holder is selling. THIS IS A TOTAL JOKE AND A SCAM if this is ccp's thought out final product on invention, ccp employes should be FIRED or is this just another big isk sink to keep empire players poor. i bet it's not like this in low sec or 0.0 and there are no invention slots in my pos mobile labs in safe space. ever feel like your that donkey with a stick tied to his neck hanging in front of him with a carrot hanging off it,, NEVER ABLE TO GET IT.
Hayah Theos	Posted - 2006.11.30 21:40:00 - [73] Good to see that people are finally waking up to the fact that EVE is a "rigged" game... not a level playing field.... five card Monte... a scam you can't win at. Eventually this will destroy the game because it will drive away potential new subscribers as it becomes known in the gaming community. Who wants to play at Poker with a stacked deck?? NOBODY. As it stands now, the game is run for the entertainment of the BPO GODS and their cronies (BPOG&C). All the rest of us people are just fools who pay to pilot targets around for the BPOG&C to shoot up. Those BPOs were handed out via a POORLY thought out method in the past and now CCP won't fix the problem. My best guess is that, rather than correcting it, they have just decided to keep the BPOG&C as human Uber-Bosses in the game. It is sad because EVE has such great potential as a game engine if it was only tweaked properly. (Read getting rid of unbalanced isk sources. And yes, limited T2 BPOs in the hands of a few has ruined this game.) I played this game for the past year, developed 3 corporations with 65 pilots and had a hand in building two POSs in zero space. Then I woke up to the fact that no matter how big we got, we would never be able to compete with the likes of BOB, ASCN, RA, and others that long ago won the BPO lottery. We could never use t2 equipment like they do, which meant we could never engage in combat with BPOG&C on an even footing, no matter how long or hard we played. Now all you BPO cronies can flame me with your nonsense about why your prefferred position in the game is justified. And CCP can stuff their explanations as to why they are continuing to support their "pets" in the game up their collective rearends. As a gamer since 1965 and a subscriber to EVE by the year, I can tell you this is driving away subscribers. I'm not even sure I will renew when my subscription runs out. For now I have resorted to piracy for my jolly rogers..and why not? After all, CCP has made every other form of competion in this game useless by giving the BPOG&C the "I WIN" button.
Califax Oman Mining Bytes Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.30 21:55:00 - [74] Originally by: Hayah Theos As a gamer since 1965 and a subscriber to EVE by the year, I can tell you this is driving away subscribers. I'm not even sure I will renew when my subscription runs out. For now I have resorted to piracy for my jolly rogers..and why not? After all, CCP has made every other form of competion in this game useless by giving the BPOG&C the "I WIN" button. Can I have your stuff? T2 Ships, Guns and other gear do not make this game. Yeah they are nice items to have but it doesn't make or break this game. There are no T2 BPO Gods shaping the way the game is run. Bob, ASCN, LV, and D2 didn't become the powerhouses overnight cause someone got lucky in a lotto. They rose to where they are today through battles and hard work. Invention still has some time to play out before it is deamed good or bad. I was just thinking it would be nice for the smaller end corps to be able to develope some of the basic T2 mods we use internaly. I am sure people will start to see T2 BPC's on the new contract system soon enough. I am going to tinker around with them for awhile, maybe i will get lucky. shrugs Even if I don't its something new to play with :) http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m283/Mimic-G/Califax-Final.jpg
Hayah Theos	Posted - 2006.11.30 22:05:00 - [75] Blah, blah, blah Califax...BPO crony ! "some of the basic T2 mods we use internaly"...you gave away your "pet" identity.. And yes, T2 does rule this game... both in combat and as a source of isk for supreme power. Busted!!!
Daos Leghki Paxton Industries	Posted - 2006.11.30 22:50:00 - [76] Originally by: Ishmael Hansen I wanna invent market caps, items can't be sold above 100% profit. I would suggest taking an economics course. They did that in some city in California in the rental housing market. A part of the population was complaining because they had to pay high rents. They instituted a cap. A few years later, homelessness rose to about 20% as almost every renter stopped renting. The irony? The fact that most of the apartments were just sitting there empty. Repopulate Low-Sec Paxton Industries is Recruiting
Ishmael Hansen No Quarter.	Posted - 2006.12.01 04:30:00 - [77] Originally by: Daos Leghki Originally by: Ishmael Hansen I wanna invent market caps, items can't be sold above 100% profit. I would suggest taking an economics course. They did that in some city in California in the rental housing market. A part of the population was complaining because they had to pay high rents. They instituted a cap. A few years later, homelessness rose to about 20% as almost every renter stopped renting. The irony? The fact that most of the apartments were just sitting there empty. This isn't rl economics, if it would I would reverse engineer and make cheap tech 2 items, we don't have that liberty in eve. Market isn't borked because people are greedy, we all know they are, market is broke because of ccp system of bpo distribution.
Califax Oman Mining Bytes Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.01 15:15:00 - [78] Originally by: Hayah Theos Blah, blah, blah Califax...BPO crony ! "some of the basic T2 mods we use internaly"...you gave away your "pet" identity.. And yes, T2 does rule this game... both in combat and as a source of isk for supreme power. Busted!!! 1) We own 0 T2 BPO's 2) We are no ones "pet" we are a small corp trying to make it in eve 3) T2 BPO does not give super powers Have you ever been in 0.0 before? http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m283/Mimic-G/Califax-Final.jpg
Hayah Theos	Posted - 2006.12.01 18:22:00 - [79] Originally by: Califax Oman Originally by: Hayah Theos Blah, blah, blah Califax...BPO crony ! "some of the basic T2 mods we use internaly"...you gave away your "pet" identity.. And yes, T2 does rule this game... both in combat and as a source of isk for supreme power. Busted!!! 1) We own 0 T2 BPO's 2) We are no ones "pet" we are a small corp trying to make it in eve 3) T2 BPO does not give super powers Have you ever been in 0.0 before? ****************************************** Yes I have been in 0.0 before.... I have played for a year and developed 3 corporations with 65 pilots and 2 POSs in zero. If you are not a T2 BPO GOD "bootlick", I'll eat my hat. (What else did you mean when you said "it would be 'nice' for the smaller end corps to be able to develope some of the basic T2 mods WE use internaly"? The only people I know routinely using T2 ships and mods in mass are the T2 GODS and their "bootlicks". Everyone else can't afford it or build it. As for your assertion that T2 BPOs don't bestow super powers.... you are either ignorant of game combat mechanics and in denial about the isk consequences of limited exclusive T2 BPO ownership or just plain stupid.
John Blackthorn Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.12.01 18:35:00 - [80] Invention allows people who have not recieved any t2 bpo's to use the skills they had trained up in hopes of a t2 bpo. It allows someone who wants to build to build something. Doesn't matter what the cost of that build is, some people just want to be able to build something other than just plain old t1 items. As for Data Core RP's being 1,500 it's not a bit deal. For example I have 5 agents all which have over 200k rp's. Datacore's don't get used up either. So thers going to be a limited amount of buyers anyway. Using a level 4 or even a level 3 reserach agent it's about one week per datacore in rp's. -John
Califax Oman Mining Bytes Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.01 18:50:00 - [81] Originally by: Hayah Theos Yes I have been in 0.0 before.... I have played for a year and developed 3 corporations with 65 pilots and 2 POSs in zero. If you are not a T2 BPO GOD "bootlick", I'll eat my hat. (What else did you mean when you said "it would be 'nice' for the smaller end corps to be able to develope some of the basic T2 mods WE use internaly"? The only people I know routinely using T2 ships and mods in mass are the T2 GODS and their "bootlicks". Everyone else can't afford it or build it. As for your assertion that T2 BPOs don't bestow super powers.... you are either ignorant of game combat mechanics and in denial about the isk consequences of limited exclusive T2 BPO ownership or just plain stupid. Would you like Ketchup with that hat? We as a corp, or even my members do NOT have a T2 BPO. We take rat loot and a few mins from mining and use it to make alot of our own gear. We have found that this saves time and isk as well makeing sure the corp is well rounded on all fronts. I was trying to explain to you that as a small corp we have to go and buy the few T2 items we use on a reg basis. This is why it would be nice if invention would allow us on a limited basis to make a few of the spiffy T2 items we use. If we don't have T2 it won't stop us from fighting and it won't "ruin" the game. T2 does not give super powers With your can't do it attitude and name calling no wonder you had to make 3 corps Back on topic agian now...... Has anyone had anymore luck with this new feature? I am rather interested to see some results from those people putting in the effort to test it out. http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m283/Mimic-G/Califax-Final.jpg
Daos Leghki Paxton Industries	Posted - 2006.12.01 18:56:00 - [82] Originally by: Ishmael Hansen Originally by: Daos Leghki Originally by: Ishmael Hansen I wanna invent market caps, items can't be sold above 100% profit. I would suggest taking an economics course. They did that in some city in California in the rental housing market. A part of the population was complaining because they had to pay high rents. They instituted a cap. A few years later, homelessness rose to about 20% as almost every renter stopped renting. The irony? The fact that most of the apartments were just sitting there empty. This isn't rl economics, if it would I would reverse engineer and make cheap tech 2 items, we don't have that liberty in eve. Market isn't borked because people are greedy, we all know they are, market is broke because of ccp system of bpo distribution. I am aggreeing that BPOs are bad. I wish they would go. But, Invention is a good thing that makes T2 work on a market model. And you CAN invent T2 stuff, that's the point. Sure, it's not cheaper to build, but it's cheaper than the sell cost. Repopulate Low-Sec Paxton Industries is Recruiting
Honneamise Amarr Biotech Industries	Posted - 2006.12.01 19:01:00 - [83] my personal problem at the moment is that you can only get MAX 4 datacore from each agent every day.
Hayah Theos	Posted - 2006.12.01 19:57:00 - [84] Califax... Califax... I sincerely apologize. After reading your last post, I realize that you are not a T2 BPO lackey... You are just grossly ignorant of the game combat mechanics that make T2 fleet engagement against T1 ships a non-event. Worse than that, you seem to be incapable of grasping the simple fact that T2 BPO GODS have an isk source that allows them to easily brush aside small hard-working Corps such a yourselves because they can destroy you in a war of attrition at any time they please and you have NO way of countering them other than trying to stay out of their way when they tell you to leave. (In fact the only effective defense is to become a T2 BPO GOD "bootlick" and serve them as CCP apparently intends.) Answer one question for me, please.... How do you enjoy building targets for the ELITE T2 GODS to destroy? I mean when I finally realized that, after a year's work, that was all I was really allowed to do in Eve, I just couldn't find the "joy" in waiting around for the T2 BPO GODS to show up and kick my hard won sand-castle to the ground (which they eventually did... actually they were quite nice about it and allowed us to pack up and leave..LOL). And I don't want to hear any "Polly Anna" crap about how you are going to fight when they come because until they do....you don't know crap about T2 vs T1 in mass. Any blustering you wish to add is "just talk" as you will find out when they arrive. Maybe then you will come to understand why an "uneven playing field" is detrimental to Eve.
Eclipsen413 Gallente 54th Knights Templar	Posted - 2006.12.01 20:04:00 - [85] i pick a blueprint then hit invention and it show me the bp, base item, and decryptor.... where do the data cores and data interfaces go???
Kire Hunted	Posted - 2006.12.01 20:07:00 - [86] Edited by: Kire Hunted on 01/12/2006 20:13:11 I'm going to have to side with califax on this one, yeah I know not a big surprise same corp and all. But I do work with industrial matters in our corp and this is how we see it anyhow. Tech II is not a win all and really ins't needed all the time pick an item and find the best named version of it and you'll find it is insanely close to the tech II version if not better. This is true for several items as tech II requires more to fit for the same stat boost. Hence why in Jita the market has tech II items cheaper than the best named about 50% of the time. The big hurt yes is the tech II ships, but a well organized gang can win with what you call strategy. and No this isn't RL but the same principals of economics still stand. You might want to note how much faster eve moves than RL in power changes and such. This is an RPG therefore reflects RL pretty closely. And I do find that the 4x datacores a day are the biggest issue atm. It isn't and end all, but if you flood the market with T2 or are able to break the stranghold without work then the market dies. You are just accelerating the curve. Take a macro and/or micro econ class. Either will explain the ideas of supply and demand very plainly to you and show how it is reflecting RL economics. As for the RP points I'm earning them for laughs. I don't make income off of R&D missions I've found another way to make isk it is amazing how R&D agents don't require you to sit there and wait. And it is called gambling you gamble that you'll get that BPO by increasing your odds right? Except everyone is doing that so I'll leave a few measily RP points in there with lower odds of getting the BPO and go grind out some BPCs if you get your BPO you win, if not guess what I win.
Califax Oman Mining Bytes Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.01 20:41:00 - [87] Originally by: Hayah Theos Califax... Califax... I sincerely apologize. After reading your last post, I realize that you are not a T2 BPO lackey... You are just grossly ignorant of the game combat mechanics that make T2 fleet engagement against T1 ships a non-event. Worse than that, you seem to be incapable of grasping the simple fact that T2 BPO GODS have an isk source that allows them to easily brush aside small hard-working Corps such a yourselves because they can destroy you in a war of attrition at any time they please and you have NO way of countering them other than trying to stay out of their way when they tell you to leave. (In fact the only effective defense is to become a T2 BPO GOD "bootlick" and serve them as CCP apparently intends.) Answer one question for me, please.... How do you enjoy building targets for the ELITE T2 GODS to destroy? I mean when I finally realized that, after a year's work, that was all I was really allowed to do in Eve, I just couldn't find the "joy" in waiting around for the T2 BPO GODS to show up and kick my hard won sand-castle to the ground (which they eventually did... actually they were quite nice about it and allowed us to pack up and leave..LOL). And I don't want to hear any "Polly Anna" crap about how you are going to fight when they come because until they do....you don't know crap about T2 vs T1 in mass. Any blustering you wish to add is "just talk" as you will find out when they arrive. Maybe then you will come to understand why an "uneven playing field" is detrimental to Eve. You sound a little bitter about getting your sand castle knocked over. As for your question... I enjoy building ships for myself and my corp. It saves us a freighter trip to Jita and gives our miners a sense of purpose higher than ones own wallet. How do you know the T2 BPO holders haven't attacked us? I mean I don't go searching the forums to find out if the targets I am shooting own a BPO. You fight with what you have and with good smart tactics. Make some friends, grow as a corp, hire some mercs, but don't come here and blame CCP or eve game machanics for you sucking at PVP and corp building. Adapt and overcome, or go play WoW. http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m283/Mimic-G/Califax-Final.jpg
Athren Soulsteal Gallente Orion Faction	Posted - 2006.12.01 21:51:00 - [88] Ok to the OP, Invention is one of the worse Ideas to come out of CCP that fact that they dropped Reverse Engineering for it just shows that CCP does not care about the NON-fighting side of EVE. As far as the T-2 BPO, CCP should just seed 1b copies into the standard markets at 10% higher cost then the T1 versions. If CCP truly wanted more people to fight, then the need to make it economically feasible to fight. I have often run across a low sec rated player and looked at their bounty, the posted on local ôGezz you bounty would not even cover the ammo to kill youö EVE is a game and should be fun for all, not just an elite few and we have had the ôgame economics discussionö for the last 4 years. I agree with the posters before, Invention is a joke as is rigging, itÆs just smoke and mirrors to cover another page in the Prat welfare program and if you donÆt see or understand that then you donÆt understand crafters (mfg players). This is like Kirk telling Bones and Scotty, ok you will need to fight your way into that heavily fortified star fortress make your was down past hundreds of POed Klingons and grab the power crystal. It will only be the two of you so take shuttle number 2, oh and hurry because you two will have to repeat thing 896 more times. Anyone like me that build a science/mfg know we are being bent over, the sad part is that i have been chasing that carrot since Beta. Quote: Think about the people that did fight you fairly. Think.... that were honorable and helped you out in times of need. Those are the real heroes of EVE. I wish I could fit all the Quote
Hayah Theos	Posted - 2006.12.01 23:15:00 - [89] Califax.... Man you really are in denial aren't you? "How do you know the T2 BPO holders haven't attacked us?" A: If they didn't show up with Dreads and T2 escorts, they weren't BPO GODS. "You fight with what you have and with good smart tactics. Make some friends, grow as a corp, hire some mercs,....." A: And then get obliterated by the BPO GODS who laugh as they squash you like a bug... "don't come here and blame CCP or eve game machanics for you sucking at PVP and corp building." A: You suck at PvP against the BPO GODs too, they just haven't taken notice of you yet because you are in a useless area of space which they have not yet decided to conquor. When they do, your sand castle will be kicked over too and you will finally realize that all you have accomplished for whatever time you have played this game has been to provide them with a little light entertainment. "Adapt and overcome, or go play WoW." A: I would love to adapt to T2, but I can't. CCP won't allow it. There is no mechanism of any useful probability of acquiring T2 BPOs or even BPCs at practical cost levels due the the T2 BPO GOD CARTEL that CCP has created by their game design. Yes, I guess I and most other players will sadly have to go to another game to look for good competetive play balance. It is not to be found in Eve. The Poker games here are all played with a "stacked" deck.
Radioactive Babe	Posted - 2006.12.02 00:44:00 - [90] Edited by: Radioactive Babe on 02/12/2006 00:49:18 In almost every scenario you can think of ...T2 > T1 (similar ship types of course)... if you cannot afford to buy T2 and get war decced/attacked by a corp/alliance that owns BPO's for Vagabonds/Cerberus/etc you are dead ...no amount of skills, work put in, greater numbers or even logging off can save you .... People who have T2 ship BPO's (and some notable others like improved cloaks, cap rechargers, large T2 guns, BCS) can afford to go and and get killed over and over and over ... if you dont have a good T2 bpo you will be ground down. T2 never had enough BPO's released, and now it has reached the stage where the T2 BPO holders are so rich that they can "make an offer that cant be refused" and get a monopoly again .... i think that hundreds of all T2 bpo's should be released, it should be skills that limit T2 ship and mod use, not isk <tin foil hat time> Of course CCP may be making a packet out of it with people buying GTC's and selling ingame for isk so they can afford the T2 goodness, and so it is not in their interest to seed more as people will find that ratting for 2 days gets them that shiny ship if they were cheap enough .... </tin foil hat time> <edit> and for newer players, invention is too much of an uphill struggle ... who is going to do missions for months to get good enough standings to get even 100RP's a day .... it is far quicker to do security agent missions and buy from market the entry bar for invention is TOO HIGH, with the element of risk involved not to mention the amount of work, why would anyone bother their arse </edit>
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.12.02 01:26:00 - [91] Originally by: Ishmael Hansen Originally by: Bigoleed T2 Market is crap - Seed T2 BPOs again - heavily - and let us invent T3. Seriously. Wont work, when the already tech 2 owners will wave 60b for the new bpos everyone will sell and they will end up in the same hands. They won't wave 60billion isk for them if the BPOs are on the NPC market. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Hayah Theos	Posted - 2006.12.02 02:01:00 - [92] Thank you Radio Active Babe for speaking the truth about EVE. We need to make this issue heard loud and strong until CCP does the "right thing" and floods the market with T2 BPOs to break the Cartel they have created. It will be only when the CARTEL GODS are broke from trying to buy up all the useful T2 BPOs that this game will be back in balance. CCP made them and gave them control of this game and only CCP has the power to break them and bring them back down to mortal earth with the rest of us. If they don't, we may as well be fighting the Arch Angels of Heaven and I don't see anyone really being entertained by that game model.
Xorena Blastaphart Caldari Signum Malus	Posted - 2006.12.02 02:08:00 - [93] Invention is, as I have said many times, a joke, it would be bad even if you could by the datacores etc. from the NPC market for pocket change much less the system in place now. Seeding hundreds of new T2 BPO's through NPC agents is not going to fix anything either. Someone still gets a money making machine. Selling T2 BPO's through NPC agents is also not going to fix anything, look at the BPC *****house and every idiot in EVE selling everything you can think of for less than material costs! Invention WOULD work, if you made it so that you start with a T1 BPO, add datacores, this component and that decyptor etc, have good skills, stick it in an Invention lab slot for say 60 days .. and if it all works out well .. hey you got a T2 BPO !! If not, sorry ... try try again .. (yes the chance of failure is needed but would need to be a fair chance). OK .. T3 ships and components are "released" .. you start with a T2 BPO and proceed on the same road .. Now THAT is invention .. almost real-world.
Hayah Theos	Posted - 2006.12.02 03:03:00 - [94] Xorena...I hear you and agree that the invention process as you desribe it would be realistic, but it would only be balanced if no CArTEL GODS existed. If you don't generate T2 BPOs fast enough to deplete the existing T2 BPO CARTEL GOD'S massive isk bank, they will buy these new T2 BPO's from you for outragious amounts you can't refuse and will still be controlling the T2 market by deep sixing them.
Ishmael Hansen No Quarter.	Posted - 2006.12.02 06:27:00 - [95] Califax, the BPO GODS people are talking about are the ones that deploy a outpost as easily as you build a BS, own several stations in regions where they don't even live (they have their slaves working for them), in major offensives deploy 40+ capital ships, supply their pilots with cost prodution tech 2, etc... We talking bout system sovereignity, region control, etc Now do the math, 200 men fleet with tech 2 cruisers and bs's (large tech 2 gun alone costs around 17m in market, hac 240m+, a sensor booster in like 4m atm, etc), how do you think you will do in an atrition war? Not only that you will be buying your tech 2 stuff from their legion of alts, which means more isk = more GTC's = more alts = more isk = more r&d agents hoarding rp's. A new bpo is seeded and they wave the billions at the guy who got it and they buy it, if they don't win it from the "random" lottery. Invention is utterly broke, not only the datacores prices are insane, you will need Astronometrics 5 to go "explore", etc. Get an ibis, a civ mining laser, go mine veld and I bet you make enough isk to buy an hac before you invent something.
Vandervecken Smith Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.02 07:38:00 - [96] Originally by: Sykosys To those complaining about Mech eng agents, they are part of minmatar R&D Corps and there are plenty of them. Yes, very true. Also irrelevant. Mechanical Engineering DataCores are needed for ALL ships. All hybrid guns, missile launchers, projectile weapons. This is not a skill that is only used by Minmatar, it's used by ALL races. What about the poor guy who uses Amarr R&D agents, if the vast Mech Eng stock is in Minmatar, he can't invent his own ships! You should not have to go outside our race to invent your race's ships & mods, simple as that. The distribution of research divisions across the races, and the distribution of core types needed for racial mods, should reflect each other.
s73v3n2k Caldari UK Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.02 09:44:00 - [97] Are people just not fed up of threads like this? Invention wasn't ever supposed to be easy in any way and the cost of the datacores has nothing to do with CCP but everything to do with the greedy eve population. With regards to T2 bpos - we have heard it all before please stop these posts. All most people are not willing to admit is that they only want the bpo's for their isk value and not because they want to manufacture the items. Most people promptly sell T2 bpos when they get them. Now wouldn't it be annoying if we all started making posts about why you have never had an officer spawn and every other person has or why should people find rare items and not you. It would just be rediculous. Suggesting things like seeding T2 bpo's on the market is not very clever either because once every man and his dog owns one do you really think they will be profitable anymore? considering the time and effort it takes to build components and then the item people would probably not even bother anymore e.g. a T2 absolution builder can only output around 5-6 units a week and a t2 heavy drone builder can only make 25 units a week. Now i can tell you one thing and that there are many professions in eve more profitable than those.
ragewind Caldari VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.02 11:01:00 - [98] Edited by: ragewind on 02/12/2006 11:00:50 Originally by: Ishmael Hansen Originally by: Bigoleed T2 Market is crap - Seed T2 BPOs again - heavily - and let us invent T3. Seriously. Wont work, when the already tech 2 owners will wave 60b for the new bpos everyone will sell and they will end up in the same hands. some will sell others with a brains will start produceing the stuff
Deadly Huntress	Posted - 2006.12.02 16:46:00 - [99] I have to say the tech II BPO thing is an issue. I'm a pvper but even I would like to buy the tech II BPO of the ships and mods I use. It is cheaper for me to produce things through my corp than it is to buy them. If you look at insurance pay outs it tells you exactly how much CCP expects each ship to be worth. I on the other hand haven't even been playing a year so finding even 1 billion to start to stockpile to buy a BPO is impossible. I was hoping things would change with invention but they nerfed it before it ever came out. And this kills people who are in the mfg buisness, as more and more players get into tech II ships the goods they produce no longer are required and your back to your "bpo gods" controlling life. Really all it would take is one selling ships just above cost in jita to start to drop prices. But you know when you have several hundred billion you could never take a cut like that
Siigari Kitawa Gallente HelpCorp United Eden's Fire	Posted - 2006.12.02 16:57:00 - [100] I want to invent some t2 rigs. Here's my problem. The datacores are OMG expensive. It'll cost me over 50 million isk to get 1 t2 rig, if not more! Here's my question- Do datacores get used up once you invent? Or do they just get referenced and you get to keep them? Because if they're persistent, then I'll be a happy panda and stock up on a bunch of datacores to have for use :D
Honneamise Amarr Biotech Industries	Posted - 2006.12.02 19:39:00 - [101] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa I want to invent some t2 rigs. Here's my problem. The datacores are OMG expensive. It'll cost me over 50 million isk to get 1 t2 rig, if not more! Here's my question- Do datacores get used up once you invent? Or do they just get referenced and you get to keep them? Because if they're persistent, then I'll be a happy panda and stock up on a bunch of datacores to have for use :D datacores are consumed, data interfaces are persistent .
Hayah Theos	Posted - 2006.12.02 21:19:00 - [102] Originally by: s73v3n2k Are people just not fed up of threads like this? Invention wasn't ever supposed to be easy in any way and the cost of the datacores has nothing to do with CCP but everything to do with the greedy eve population. With regards to T2 bpos - we have heard it all before please stop these posts. All most people are not willing to admit is that they only want the bpo's for their isk value and not because they want to manufacture the items. Most people promptly sell T2 bpos when they get them. Now wouldn't it be annoying if we all started making posts about why you have never had an officer spawn and every other person has or why should people find rare items and not you. It would just be rediculous. Suggesting things like seeding T2 bpo's on the market is not very clever either because once every man and his dog owns one do you really think they will be profitable anymore? considering the time and effort it takes to build components and then the item people would probably not even bother anymore e.g. a T2 absolution builder can only output around 5-6 units a week and a t2 heavy drone builder can only make 25 units a week. Now i can tell you one thing and that there are many professions in eve more profitable than those. ********************* GOOD TO HEAR THE OPINION OF ONE OF THE T2 BPO CARTEL "BOOTLICKS". THANKS, NOW GO AWAY.
Shayla Etherodyne	Posted - 2006.12.02 21:25:00 - [103] Originally by: Jaguar Dragon your all forgetting the decrytors and data interfaces. these can only be found through exploration, without these your bpc will be very short run and ME/realy bad. they also increase your chance of a succesful invention. instead of a total loss. plus the invention lab slots. AVAILABILTY probe costs and time to find the stuff in deadspace. just how many probes your going to launch to find 1 deadspace object. Here I can reply a bit having tested it in Sisi (where the damn requirement for the probes change from a day to the next!) Produced the probes, only the long range - started to search using between 3 and 4 probes for system - found a cosmic signature at the 3 system but the error was 1/2 AU so I leaved teh system to get the short range, more precis probe needed, those were building while I was scanning. returnde in the system to my bookmark - no more cosmic signature. I have read a the forum and found that happening to other people. Apparently the site you find is fixed only when you wisit it, changing sessions whe a site hasn,t been visited move it. So after using 3-4 long ramge probes costing about 57K each, 1-2 short range for another 54K each (current build price in Tranquility), we will have te nice option to jump to the spot detected in out probeship, well nerfed mounting a probe launcher (lot of CPU used). And there we can find anything: a omber roid field, some gas cloud, a room full of angry rats equivalent to a 10/10 complex. As the probes don't get: NPC ships, buildings [the building on the list are POS structures], roids, gas cloud, we will jump with 0 knolewdge of the target point. So cost of exploration for data interfaces and decriptors 250K in probes for every system explored, and a ship every 4-5 sites found. Enjoy
Shayla Etherodyne	Posted - 2006.12.02 21:31:00 - [104] Originally by: John Blackthorn Invention allows people who have not recieved any t2 bpo's to use the skills they had trained up in hopes of a t2 bpo. It allows someone who wants to build to build something. Doesn't matter what the cost of that build is, some people just want to be able to build something other than just plain old t1 items. As for Data Core RP's being 1,500 it's not a bit deal. For example I have 5 agents all which have over 200k rp's. Datacore's don't get used up either. So thers going to be a limited amount of buyers anyway. Using a level 4 or even a level 3 reserach agent it's about one week per datacore in rp's. -John Datacores are consumed.
Akisa Chen	Posted - 2006.12.02 22:10:00 - [105] Originally by: Shayla Etherodyne So cost of exploration for data interfaces and decriptors 250K in probes for every system explored, Enjoy Only if you actually find something. I spend 6 hours today wasting 23 quest probes on 3 systems and found nothing!
Malena Panic Gallente Acme Technologies Incorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.12.04 19:14:00 - [106] Originally by: s73v3n2k Are people just not fed up of threads like this? Yeah, pretty tired. It would be nice to get a note from the devs saying, 'yeah, eff you, players a year old.' Quote: Suggesting things like seeding T2 bpo's on the market is not very clever either because once every man and his dog owns one do you really think they will be profitable anymore? Absolutely. The bottleneck will be player-generated and controlled components, as it should be. Nowadays almost nobody bothers with moon mining, since the margins are so low and the risk and difficulty so high. That would change once everyone had access to the blueprints that need these minerals.
Mr.Mayhem Amarr Mining Bytes Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.04 19:19:00 - [107] Originally by: Hayah Theos GOOD TO HEAR THE OPINION OF ONE OF THE T2 BPO CARTEL "BOOTLICKS". THANKS, NOW GO AWAY. HAHAHHAAHA dude you're just ****ed you haven't figured a way to be one of your "BPO Gods". You've played for a year and the best you've done is 3 corps with 65 ppl? Thats just sad. You need to actually participate in the politics bub. Eve doesn't have a daycare center so stop acting like a spoiled child. ---------------------
Tien Shan	Posted - 2006.12.04 20:17:00 - [108] Originally by: Mr.Mayhem HAHAHHAAHA dude you're just ****ed you haven't figured a way to be one of your "BPO Gods". Uh, isn't the whole point that he CAN'T become one of the BPO Gods? They have already all been handed out, and the billions and billions of ISK earned... I am pretty new (four months) and had hoped to develop an industrial character--while I'll give it a go with Invention, etc., it doesn't look very promising. The real kicker will be if they implement T3 via Invention requiring a T2 BPO or BPC. At that point if I don't quit EVE altogether I will certainly abandon any illusion of having any opportunity of creating an industrial character with a chance of success.
Boosted	Posted - 2006.12.04 21:00:00 - [109] Simply put, YOU SNOOZE YOU LOSE! You chose not to join this game (whether you heard about it or not, it was here, and you had the option of joining it). So because you failed to get into the game at an early stage you dont get any of the rewards from it. I'm sorry, but that's the truth. Stop *****ing and moaning about something so inconsequential. If you don't like the way the game is played, then stop paying your fees and leave. Or you can do something about it and join up into a corp or recruit players that have t2 BPOs.
Xorena Blastaphart Caldari Signum Malus	Posted - 2006.12.04 22:10:00 - [110] Edited by: Xorena Blastaphart on 04/12/2006 22:16:42 Originally by: Boosted Simply put, YOU SNOOZE YOU LOSE! You chose not to join this game (whether you heard about it or not, it was here, and you had the option of joining it). So because you failed to get into the game at an early stage you dont get any of the rewards from it. Thats about the 2nd dumbest arguement I've ever heard. Its a game, and if new players don't have the same opportunities to grow their characters, in this case I refer to Industrial aspects, as someone thats been in the game since day one .. well, geez, why play at all ? This is the "concept" that CCP has overlooked in the herein discussed T2 BPO issue, a very few have a huge financial advantage over the many, and without hope of every rectifying that short of buying GTC's for resale or outright buying ISK from the macro/ISK farmers. Invention isn't going to cut it in its current state, my previous suggestions allow the playing field to be leveled in this aspect of the game, regardless of when the player began, and allowed for the fair implimentation of T3 when available. What p***'es me off most about CCP in general, is their consistent failure to communicate in a timely manner about the issues brought forward by the players. All thats needed is for one of the developers to join in and tell us "Hey, yeah, <insert issue here> is a problem we're going to work on it". What they really need to do is hire a ecomonics pro as a consultant and have that person review and recommend changes to the so-called "player driven market". Just my 0.02 ISK worth...
Boosted	Posted - 2006.12.04 22:32:00 - [111] A player drivin market will follow typical economic trends.
Khyle Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.04 23:01:00 - [112] Edited by: Khyle on 04/12/2006 23:12:31 As no BPO GOD but more or less small private owner, my 0.2 isk. I own 3 T2 BPOs, including one ship, but no big ticket items(like HACs). Each BPO nets me about 100-150 Million Isk a month. Yes, thats without doing any work at all, so if you consider that unfair, you may be right, but im not your worst enemy :). I buy the minerals and components for the modules in bulk every 3 months and sell only BPCs of the ships instead of manufacturing(too much m3 in components to be convenient, plus flying the ships around). Copying pays quite nicely as people pay premium to be able to produce at home instead of flying finished ships around. Thats 300-450 Million isk a month. So why i am telling you that? I got 16 research agents on one account. All they did the last years was giving me these 3 BPOs with the mentioned income(ok, plus one i sold for a nice amount). For simplicity lets consider all of them being Starship engineering(doesnt change the datacores/day), producing 250 RPs a day on average, thats 4000 RPs a day, or roughly 2.6 datacores a day, 80 per month. So, on one side, if i stick to them for a year longer, maybe i get another few BPOs which probably will net me a few hundred million isk per month. Or i sell 80 Datacores per month. To be profitable compared to the other option lets consider i want to make 240 Million isk per month, starting right now(while i need to wait for BPOs). 240/80 = 3, so with a price of 3 Million isk per Datacore, i make the same profit i would expect from a few BPOs if i got some in the next year, starting right now. Not bad. Even going overtop with 500 Mill a month thats still only 6 Million per datacore. But people will undercut each other a lot, as its so easy and essentially effortless to produce datacores. Personally i wont do that, still hoping for the big ticket item :). But it is viable, f.e. bringing alts up to 5 research agents just for farming and selling datacores. And people really will do it. If you watch all the undercutting going on for available BPOs, you can imagine there will be loads of people doing the same with datacores. Its easy, it has no risks and its absolutely safe, PLUS there is no work involved at all once you have it going(you just make an afk-roundtrip once a week to collect the datacores). If eve taught me one thing its that even the smallest profit margin business is swarmed like hell if its safe and freely available. Just that you consider it too tiresome to cater to your own t2 needs via invention will does not mean that theres nobody who will do it. If you dont believe that, you obviously belong to the wrong demographics, the one trying to be self-sufficient and probably living in 0.0 . Even if you would consider me unlucky in the lottery(not that many BPOs with lots of agents) there will be loads of unlucky people willing to sell datacores. Add to that that quite a lot of people have old agents they want to get rid off in favor of better ones, f.e. level 3 ones with big piles of RPs, in my case even a level 2 one which had Starship Research at 3 at the very beginning, which was nerfed down to 2. So where does "wont go lower than 20 Million" come from? And even 10 Million could cut HAC prices in half. The question is: Why did i spend so much time answering to such a stupid post. Whatever
Slaadi	Posted - 2006.12.05 14:47:00 - [113] Having played MMORPG's for years, Eve's T2 system has never made any sense to me. Before I fully understood the system, how I THOUGHT it worked was: T1 Ships and module BP's are available to anyone in high sec space. T2 BP's you get from research agents after you've spent time working with them. They are limited by the fact that you need materials only available in 0.0 space, leaving T2 equiment only an option to those who dwell in 0.0 or are willing to pay for the materials from someone who does. You need to set up and defend a mining operation in 0.0 if you want T2. Made sense to me. More difficult to obtain but not impossible. Instead I work on my R&D corp faction and start looking for R&D agents only to find nothing will ever come from the research. I stupidly assume they hand out X per month and I just have to wait for them to get restocked. Nope, they handed out everything long before I even heard of the game, teased every now and then by a dev who ponders his navel about re-seeding some T2 BPO's and then nothing happens. Ah! But invention is coming! And they've now backed themselves into a corner. Spend your RP's to maybe get a limited run BPC of T2 equipment... and now if they ever reseed anything their playerbase will go ballistic because they spent their RP's on datacores and sunk their chances at getting a BPO in the lottery! Brilliant move CCP. That or they know damn well no BPO's will ever be reseeded so it will never be an issue. I still held hope that invention was going to mean that you could at least make T2 stuff for yourself or your corp. Either more expensive mineralwise or too long to really be profitable, but a system where at least you could 'invent' that ship or gun or launcher thats either non-existant in the market or stupidly overpriced. Again, NOT to enter the market yourself, but just the ability to make the handful of things you want if you were willing to spend the time. Guess not. Whats the going rate for 15m SP industrial characters?
slothe Caldari Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.12.05 15:12:00 - [114] this thread has degenerated from a thread about invention to ANOTHER thread whining about t2 bpos. if you think invention is so rubbish just start a petition to abolish it thanks. invention, as i see it, was never intended to enable new t2 producers to break into the market, but created for whiners to make t2 items at a lesser cost for themselves, if they spent a bit of time and effort doing so. *Before complaining about any ship try flying Minmatar*
Tachy	Posted - 2006.12.05 15:16:00 - [115] Damn, I just ran out of popcorn AND salt. --==*-- The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait \| 2006.09.20
Paladineguru Gallente DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.05 15:37:00 - [116] Originally by: s73v3n2k Are people just not fed up of threads like this? Invention wasn't ever supposed to be easy in any way and the cost of the datacores has nothing to do with CCP but everything to do with the greedy eve population. With regards to T2 bpos - we have heard it all before please stop these posts. All most people are not willing to admit is that they only want the bpo's for their isk value and not because they want to manufacture the items. Most people promptly sell T2 bpos when they get them. Now wouldn't it be annoying if we all started making posts about why you have never had an officer spawn and every other person has or why should people find rare items and not you. It would just be rediculous. Suggesting things like seeding T2 bpo's on the market is not very clever either because once every man and his dog owns one do you really think they will be profitable anymore? considering the time and effort it takes to build components and then the item people would probably not even bother anymore e.g. a T2 absolution builder can only output around 5-6 units a week and a t2 heavy drone builder can only make 25 units a week. Now i can tell you one thing and that there are many professions in eve more profitable than those. The above is completely untrue, while these numbers may hold for the original bpo few if any manufacuterers produce this way, most will try for multiple copies of a bpo , and / or then put it in a research and copy cycle that eventually ends in them having effectively the ability to build as many as they have factories to afford , so umm stfu cause you dont know what your saying. and the only thing seeding t2 to current makret at above battleship bp t1 prices , would be to provide much needed competition for the current cartel that is controlling t2 prices.
LtCol Killgore	Posted - 2006.12.05 16:20:00 - [117] most people in this thread just seem to be *****ing because they couldn't hop into Jita on the day of Revelations release, buy aload of shiney new science stuff, cash in their LP and after a couple of days in the lab, walk away with a few bil profit in T2 bpcs. CCP probabily made it a slow seeding profession to stop it just instantly favouring the already rich. The real focus of invention is the hidden complexes etc, because until they're all found and publicly listed beyond the point of really needing to scan much, that is where some skill comes into play. any idiot can do courier missions for a month or two then get a set of lvl4 r&d agents, save up the LP and cash it in. The only change to the t2 industry until reverse engineering (whatever that will be)hits is that the corps/lone mofo's that end up farming the complexs will make loadsa cash, probabily buying more datacores from the market and using it all than selling the decryptors and data interfaces. At least with invention you got the chance of killing and taking posetion of the complexs if they're in a corp, or sneaking in during opposite TZ. All you can do with t2 bpo owners is shake your fist and/or cry. i'm actually happy with the way CCP have done invention, cos you cant just do it all afk and make billions like a majority of industry in this game. the people who will make any isk outta this will be the farmers, and fair play to them, cos at least they dont just have to take the components they afk freightered from jita and whack them in an oven. This really just doesn't seem like it was intended to be another 'investment' based industry, and if it was, it'd be just as bad as the t2 bpo industry.
Sayla Starseeker	Posted - 2006.12.05 16:22:00 - [118] I agree with the views of Hayah Theos and the few others that have pointed out that the sheer wealth of the larger BPO2 controlling alliances makes it impossible to compete. I sympathize with anyone who has worked long and hard to build a sandcastle, only to have it removed, or simply having been informed to pack it or lose it. One day, I would like to own a sandcastle or two of my own. The BPO lottery must be redesigned completely. Seeding more BPOs (even many more) is NOT a solution. New players join the game every day, and they are looking at many months of mission running and skill training before they can even begin to accumulate research points.
Doxs Roxs White Wolves Defence league The OSS	Posted - 2006.12.05 16:35:00 - [119] Did anyone actually manage to invent something yet? Regards /Doxs After 9 months, why is my face just a '!' ?
Doxs Roxs White Wolves Defence league The OSS	Posted - 2006.12.05 16:36:00 - [120] Edited by: Doxs Roxs on 05/12/2006 16:37:42 doublepost Regards /Doxs After 9 months, why is my face just a '!' ?
Gaogan Gallente Solar Storm Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.12.05 17:15:00 - [121] It is bad enough that you have to get a heavily researched long run bpc, a decrypter, sacrifice a T1 version ( if you don't want the attempt to fail ) just to get a T2 bpc that you can now have another PITA building. We don't need to be spending a hundred million on the data cores too. And to the person who said you will be selling data cores for 2 million: you are a moron. 2 million every 3 days isn't enough to get me to roll out of bed let alone run back to empire for. They seriously need to lower the rp cost of datacores. Oh, and I'm glad they pushed this to TQ without actually testing it on Sisi.
Shayla Etherodyne	Posted - 2006.12.05 17:24:00 - [122] Originally by: Akisa Chen Originally by: Shayla Etherodyne So cost of exploration for data interfaces and decriptors 250K in probes for every system explored, Enjoy Only if you actually find something. I spend 6 hours today wasting 23 quest probes on 3 systems and found nothing! It was ironic, even if you find something it can be a mining site, a gas cloud, a complex unrelated to research, ecc, so if I have to search 10 system for 1 professional site I am still not too upset. I have still dubt on the number of ships I will lose jumping blinding in the site. But that will be discovered with experience.
Shayla Etherodyne	Posted - 2006.12.05 17:30:00 - [123] Edited by: Shayla Etherodyne on 05/12/2006 17:40:31 Originally by: Boosted Simply put, YOU SNOOZE YOU LOSE! You chose not to join this game (whether you heard about it or not, it was here, and you had the option of joining it). So because you failed to get into the game at an early stage you dont get any of the rewards from it. I'm sorry, but that's the truth. Stop *****ing and moaning about something so inconsequential. If you don't like the way the game is played, then stop paying your fees and leave. Or you can do something about it and join up into a corp or recruit players that have t2 BPOs. This is one of the more incredible reply I have ever seen. So you are arguing that a player must forever be cut out of a whole section of the game because he wasn't a beta tester? And your corporation with T2 BPO will let touch those to someone that wan't in the Corporation for at least 1 year? and possibly personally know to the CEO in RL?
Hayah Theos	Posted - 2006.12.05 18:34:00 - [124] Is anyone else reading this thread as amused as I am by the sheer arrogance of the T2 BPO CARTEL GODS posting here?? Those telling us it is just too bad we were "too late to the party"? Mr. Khyle above is an exception, was quite civil and openly discussed the fact that he only has 3 MINOR T2 BPOs that generate 100-150 million isk EACH PER MONTH by just selling copies!! Don't you wonder what the monthly windfall is for the T2 BPO GODS that own the HAC or Cap II or Cloak II BPOs must be? Great play balance CCP! Makes me want to run right out and build 10 or 20 POSs so I can watch them be all be torched by by these guys. (Never mind that only those guys could build 10 or 20 POSs, much less defend them).
Mr.Mayhem Amarr Mining Bytes Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.05 21:43:00 - [125] Edited by: Mr.Mayhem on 05/12/2006 21:44:23 Originally by: Hayah Theos Is anyone else reading this thread as amused as I am by the sheer arrogance of the T2 BPO CARTEL GODS posting here?? Those telling us it is just too bad we were "too late to the party"? Mr. Khyle above is an exception, was quite civil and openly discussed the fact that he only has 3 MINOR T2 BPOs that generate 100-150 million isk EACH PER MONTH by just selling copies!! Don't you wonder what the monthly windfall is for the T2 BPO GODS that own the HAC or Cap II or Cloak II BPOs must be? Great play balance CCP! Makes me want to run right out and build 10 or 20 POSs so I can watch them be all be torched by by these guys. (Never mind that only those guys could build 10 or 20 POSs, much less defend them). They need the 20 POS's to build stuff so OF COURSE they build them. And there is no T2 BPO Cartel give it a rest. The simple fact is to have any kind of a market they can only let out so many BPO's. If you aren' the lucky one BOO FREAKIN HOOOO . The only other thing they could do is release limited run BPC's of the equipment. Isn't that what they did with invention? Wow funny how that all works huh. YARRR! ---------------------

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