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Ithildin Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.30 19:59:00 - [61] Edited by: Ithildin on 30/11/2006 19:58:51 A Dominix has a 90% likelihood of having at least 52% or more resistance on hull. - EVE is sick.
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.11.30 20:01:00 - [62] Originally by: Loka Originally by: Mila Prestoc Oh and for all your sp's your hyperion setup sucks. Do it better or is your mouth bigger than your wisdome? Smack is strong in this one. Make advantage of the bonus and rigs which emphasise that bonus. And instead of fitting two reps use the one and use the saved fitting + module slot to put ions or even neutrons on. Reduces your cap use by 35cap/sec. Speed penalty will reduce speed to 100m/s or so. You will still get 1000m/s with MWD and hit the top speed sooner as you arn't plated like the gank plated mega. So with 700 to 900+ dps and tanking 400 to 500 dps with cap use less than the 50 cap/sec a cap booster alone gives you think you... Gank plated mega will still rock for gangs, hyperion setup right is great solo. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Breed Love FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.30 22:40:00 - [63] to op: I tested the hyperion a lot on sisi and have yet to see a ship that was able to tank me for any significant amount of time. The only nosdomi that killed me was one with high ecm skills, ecm rigs and ecm mods in lows, and he got me only because i was jammed every other cycle (thats being jammed about 70% of all combat time). Yet I got him down to low armor. There must be something wrong with your setups.
Freakdevil	Posted - 2006.11.30 23:08:00 - [64] While I dont disagree with the OP, and sympathize with his discovery, blaster setups are still the best close range DPS. But the idea of combat is being changed to allow more breathing room. Tanks are key and rightly so. I have fought many ppl on the test server. Some I have beat, others who have beat me. It taught me that tactics and grey matter are key to victory. No longer F1-F8. Bottom line? Tactics and Friends are the new emphasis of Kali not simply DPS. You want to win? Adapt.
Helox Gallente Demonic Retribution Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.11.30 23:14:00 - [65] Originally by: Breed Love to op: I tested the hyperion a lot on sisi and have yet to see a ship that was able to tank me for any significant amount of time. The only nosdomi that killed me was one with high ecm skills, ecm rigs and ecm mods in lows, and he got me only because i was jammed every other cycle (thats being jammed about 70% of all combat time). Yet I got him down to low armor. There must be something wrong with your setups. I believe you, but please share your setup then. Cos I get bbq-ed every time I take a Hyperion out...
Xori Ruscuv Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.11.30 23:15:00 - [66] Originally by: Freakdevil Bottom line? Gank are the new emphasis of Kali. You want to win? Gank. Fixed. It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it? This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap...
L33t Sphere	Posted - 2006.12.01 02:46:00 - [67] Blasters are highly viable. There are some blaster ships that are gimped beyond belief(DEIMOS). However, the battleships are most definitely not gimped. The problem is a combination of NOS+ECM+Drones. NOS needs to be nerfed to a large degree. Tanking was enhanced with this patch, damage of TII ammo was reduced, but Nos suffered no penalties. NOS was overpowered before, and it needs to be addressed, especially with the use of ECM and drones with it. That being said, the best tank should counter the best gank. The whole ship is oriented toward being a flying tank. The only way a NosDommi could be a larger tank was with armor rep drones and rigs. No, I think the problem is not with tanking, but with NOS allowing tanks to be sustainable while drones dish out all manner of damages easily. This allows a ship totally focused upon tanking to do a disgusting amount of damage besides. Perhaps a stacking penalty on nosferatus would be suggestable. Blasters got a stealth-boost, if anything. The MWD time is the main detriment to blasters. However, with the time required to mwd into range approximately the same, but with longer battles, the heavy DPS of blasterboats is brought to bear for a longer time. Tanks are no more sustainable then they were prepatch, they just have a higher buffer. However damage is just as sustainable as pre-patch, so while battle times are increased, tanking(actively at least) is unchanged while damage is more of a factor. This is very good in my opinion. NOS+ECM+Drones needs a nerf. I suggest a large stacking penalty on NOS and ECM, and Drones being left alone. This allows ships that have auxiliary slots to maintain their relative NOS levels, but stops ships from using more than 3 nosferatus or ecms(at least on a single target). This seems much fairer to me.
king jks	Posted - 2006.12.01 04:31:00 - [68] Maybe something about nothing shorter than a capital ship could tank your old mega should've tipped you off that maybe it was a bit overpowered, now its in line with the other ships. kthx cry me a river.
Damis Zohar Pirates of Destruction Union	Posted - 2006.12.01 08:11:00 - [69] Originally by: king jks Maybe something about nothing shorter than a capital ship could tank your old mega should've tipped you off that maybe it was a bit overpowered, now its in line with the other ships. kthx cry me a river. Why do people forget that these large dps setups come with a tank a frigate could break?
DemonStar Supernova Aurora Empire Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels	Posted - 2006.12.01 08:31:00 - [70] As far as Im seeing it, the hyperion is definitely not set up defensively to any degree whatsoever, and suffers the same fallbacks any blaster ship does. That being an incredible sensitivity to nos due to a rasors edge balance of the cap hefty blasters, MWD, and minimal tank. Best I can figure at this point is to try to equal out the issue in the rigs. If memory serves, (Ive been looking at both the autocannon rigs and hybrid Rigs, so sorry if im wrong), there is a ROF bonus rig for hybrids. My plan is to dedicate the lows completely to the ROF (If anyone ever puts a stinking rig on the market :( where are they?) to equal out the loss of damage on the ammo. This also helps just a bit to counter NOS by putting more shots inbetween each NOS cycle. It may or may not work, but worst case I repackage the ship and refit new rigs.
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.01 08:37:00 - [71] Originally by: DemonStar Supernova As far as Im seeing it, the hyperion is definitely not set up defensively to any degree whatsoever, and suffers the same fallbacks any blaster ship does. That being an incredible sensitivity to nos due to a rasors edge balance of the cap hefty blasters, MWD, and minimal tank. Best I can figure at this point is to try to equal out the issue in the rigs. If memory serves, (Ive been looking at both the autocannon rigs and hybrid Rigs, so sorry if im wrong), there is a ROF bonus rig for hybrids. My plan is to dedicate the lows completely to the ROF (If anyone ever puts a stinking rig on the market :( where are they?) to equal out the loss of damage on the ammo. This also helps just a bit to counter NOS by putting more shots inbetween each NOS cycle. It may or may not work, but worst case I repackage the ship and refit new rigs. Rigs are stacking nerfed with damage mods. You'll get more DPS/ROF out of 3x damage mods than you will out of 3x rigs. Because I said so...
DemonStar Supernova Aurora Empire Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels	Posted - 2006.12.01 08:40:00 - [72] Well that just stinks, I was under the impression the stacking penaltys were separated. You just ruined my night :( Armor rigs it is!
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.01 08:43:00 - [73] Originally by: L33t Sphere The problem is a combination of NOS+ECM+Drones. NOS needs to be nerfed to a large degree. Tanking was enhanced with this patch, damage of TII ammo was reduced, but Nos suffered no penalties. NOS was overpowered before, and it needs to be addressed, especially with the use of ECM and drones with it. Actually, the Dominix can't fit too many nosferatus due to low powergrid. The NosDom is stigmatized as the great evil only because it was such a predictable and common setup. Most battleships were able to replace the lowered amount of drone damage with turret or missile damage quite easily, although it was only Caldari and Minmatar whom had enough mid slots and 0-cap weapons to do it. Quote: That being said, the best tank should counter the best gank. The whole ship is oriented toward being a flying tank. This is what's called "stalemates", or in a slightly more crude language "bloody boring". Think of tank > gank situation as WWI - the countries could easily tank each other, so nothing really happened in Europe and the soldiers' morale suffered greatly for it (not to mention their physique as the two sides employed crueller and crueller weapons). Quote: The only way a NosDommi could be a larger tank was with armor rep drones and rigs. Can't use rep drones on yourself. Quote: No, I think the problem is not with tanking, but with NOS allowing tanks to be sustainable while drones dish out all manner of damages easily. I beg to differ. The problem with NOS is not the drones on the Dominix, the problem with NOS is that it shuts down the opponent's tank and the opponent's hybrids/lasers. Oh, and I'll let the comment about "all manner of damage" slide because I'm feeling generous. Quote: Blasters got a stealth-boost, if anything. The MWD time is the main detriment to blasters. However, with the time required to mwd into range approximately the same, but with longer battles, the heavy DPS of blasterboats is brought to bear for a longer time. That was a very odd line of argument. You argue that blasters were boosted because their high damage is more pronounced with time, yet the counter argument is so obvious - a blaster ship can not really last for that extra time since it relies on killing the opponent quickly rather than convincingly. Consider this: when using blasters your capacitor recharge is strictly negative regardless of whether your tank is active or not. Then draw a straight line across the concept of "longer fights". They did increase the capacitor sizes, yes, but it was only to compensate for the extra hit points - NOT enough to compensate the increased value of nosferatus and more importantly NOT enough to compensate the increased duration and yield of the enemy tank. The end result is that blasters are more likely to run out of capacitor. Quote: Tanks are no more sustainable then they were prepatch, they just have a higher buffer. However damage is just as sustainable as pre-patch, so while battle times are increased, tanking(actively at least) is unchanged while damage is more of a factor. This is very good in my opinion. Well, I did touch on this above. Damage is less sustainable since the enemy tanks last longer. Sustainability is only to be discussed if either ship is expected to outlast it's capacitor - which is now more likely to be the case on blaster and laser ships. Quote: NOS+ECM+Drones needs a nerf. I suggest a large stacking penalty on NOS and ECM, and Drones being left alone. This allows ships that have auxiliary slots to maintain their relative NOS levels, but stops ships from using more than 3 nosferatus or ecms(at least on a single target). This seems much fairer to me. ...but I do agree with the sum of your post - that nosferatus need a thorough look at. - EVE is sick.
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.01 08:51:00 - [74] Originally by: DemonStar Supernova Well that just stinks, I was under the impression the stacking penaltys were separated. You just ruined my night :( Armor rigs it is! Armor rigs f#ck your speed. Back to the drawing board... Because I said so...
DemonStar Supernova Aurora Empire Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels	Posted - 2006.12.01 08:53:00 - [75] Edited by: DemonStar Supernova on 01/12/2006 08:53:38 I can sacrifice a bit of speed with a topout of 1150m/s. What I cant sacrifice is my new ship now that my tank beakers have gone to pot.
Zeknichov Amarr Black Avatar Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.01 09:37:00 - [76] Edited by: Zeknichov on 01/12/2006 09:39:51 Originally by: L33t Sphere Blasters are highly viable. There are some blaster ships that are gimped beyond belief(DEIMOS). However, the battleships are most definitely not gimped. The problem is a combination of NOS+ECM+Drones. NOS needs to be nerfed to a large degree. Tanking was enhanced with this patch, damage of TII ammo was reduced, but Nos suffered no penalties. NOS was overpowered before, and it needs to be addressed, especially with the use of ECM and drones with it. That being said, the best tank should counter the best gank. The whole ship is oriented toward being a flying tank. The only way a NosDommi could be a larger tank was with armor rep drones and rigs. No, I think the problem is not with tanking, but with NOS allowing tanks to be sustainable while drones dish out all manner of damages easily. This allows a ship totally focused upon tanking to do a disgusting amount of damage besides. Perhaps a stacking penalty on nosferatus would be suggestable. Blasters got a stealth-boost, if anything. The MWD time is the main detriment to blasters. However, with the time required to mwd into range approximately the same, but with longer battles, the heavy DPS of blasterboats is brought to bear for a longer time. Tanks are no more sustainable then they were prepatch, they just have a higher buffer. However damage is just as sustainable as pre-patch, so while battle times are increased, tanking(actively at least) is unchanged while damage is more of a factor. This is very good in my opinion. NOS+ECM+Drones needs a nerf. I suggest a large stacking penalty on NOS and ECM, and Drones being left alone. This allows ships that have auxiliary slots to maintain their relative NOS levels, but stops ships from using more than 3 nosferatus or ecms(at least on a single target). This seems much fairer to me. You actually are on to something. Make NOS give your ship a decrease to ECM effectiveness and an increase in effectiveness of ECM against you. I mean most people fit one ECM in their meds as a means to use up a slot, same goes for NOS. However now people who like to fit 5 NOS on their ships will be so easy to ECM it won't matter, but it won't nerf NOS completely because people who don't fit ECM will still die to NOS ships... However a change like this could drastically increase the use of ECM which we don't really need.
Twilight Moon Minmatar Malicious Intentions	Posted - 2006.12.01 09:56:00 - [77] Originally by: Simon Jax Given the virtually negligable hull hp (w/no resistances) the Gank Mega didn't exactly lose by much. Uh huh. Perhaps you missed the "named DCU" in the setup. I don't currently know what the Mega's structure is on Tranq, but find out, and then apply 58% resists across the board to it. I'd love to know what you regard as a "wide margin". (Empty Space - Thinking)
Nordvargr GoonWaffe GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.12.01 09:59:00 - [78] Hrm.... That's quite a predicament Loka, you have maxed out blaster skills and your DPS isn't enough to kill tanks. I understand how hard that must be, you can't train skills up anymore, and if the best isn't good enough then what is? Hrm.... So these ships that are beating you are fitting a tank? If only there was something you could do that would allow you to do what these ships that are beating you are doing... there must be something but I.... I just.... can't.... think of it...
Sir Bart Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.12.01 11:46:00 - [79] I'm also upset with the tanking bonus and damage nerf. What I'm worried about is rigs. They help tanking ships while offering nothing to pure damage setups. What I thought we would be able to do is fit 2 dmg rigs but the problem is that dmg rigs won't work if you already have mag stabs so we don't get an increase in dmg while the hyperion can tank something like 200% as much dmg as a domi on tranq could. It's really annoying since I also invested heavily in the kami kazi ship design of just lots of dps and HP but it seems totally unvaible now. -Bart p.s. (I have 21 mill sp and 7 in gunnery, not caught up with you but the mix is similar) p.s.s The fix to the problem imo is to allow rigs to not have stacking penalties with modules on ships and incrase dmg rig bonuses from 10 and 15% to 15 and 20%. Then we could fit 2 tech 1 dmg rigs on our blasterships and actually break the new tanks.
Sir Bart Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.12.01 12:03:00 - [80] Originally by: Simon Jax I don't see what is particularly unbalanced about the specific encounter described. Why should max DPS beat max Tank? A pure damaage ship is only useful if it can overwhelm a tanker with damage. On his pure damage setup you might have noticed he didn't even have an armor repair. The idea of using that setup is that you put it all on the line, you can't tank until your timer runs out and go through a gate, you can't do anything but kill or be killed. And if a tanking ship can withstand a kami kazi pure damage attack, we need something changed since the only thing the setup was good for was 1 attack on a tanked ship and then we need a station to repair (or a pos to equip an armor rep). What we're left with is setups that are all tank or EW are going to be the only way to solo. Damage used to be a good tactic, but it's now obsolete (well with no rigs availiable, we can still do okay until the market catches up) -Bart
James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.12.01 12:12:00 - [81] I can't help but think "fit a smartbomb". The Nos Domi has no offense except for it's drones. It is doing no damage to you except by its drones. If the drones keep dying then you remove it's offense all together. I think the better question here really has to be, is there any ship that's not a Nos Domi that you can't kill?
Athryn	Posted - 2006.12.01 12:26:00 - [82] Loka, Did you actually consider that when you were testing your DPS that the guy your fighting for the Domi Pilot stacked his resistances to kinetic and thermal exclusively making his resistances to those very high? while his em and explosive resistance were crappy? because even though you fly a monster of a dps ship if he had close to 87% / 87%resitances on kin / thermal and he runs 2 LAR II' s and nos in the highs your guns pretty much wont be able to do much damage maybe thats the reason he had you tanked out. Really our only real weakness is that our damage is too predictable we cant change damage types so if your testing your dps that person your against will really stack up on kin / thermal resistances.
Sandra Tseng THE MISPHIT'S Kurai Komichi	Posted - 2006.12.01 13:09:00 - [83] /me has the solution /me gonna make em amarrians happy too! /me suggests; do to NOS what you did to ECM. I hate to fit Nos, I was tryin out a myrmidon setup with full rack of blasters and one nos. My frind said: fit 6 medium nos instead! (wohoo!) I said: I do not want that, it is cheap! He said: Well it does not matter if it is cheap, you win fights and that was it is all about! I said: No! I do not to "win EvE"! I play for fun! And 6 Nos's is no fun! He said: Oh so it is more fun to get spanked every time? I was thinking...and finally said: No Nos is the I-Win-Button! Blood raiders are Ammar...they get bonuses to NOS. Solution: Gimp NOS beyond recognition Give Amarr ships NOS bonuses (some already have) Now only dedicated NOS ships are as effective while the non dedicated will be not as useful for nos-boating.. And to comment an earlier post about making a NOS boat less resistant to jamming; Now that only Griffin, Blackbird, Rook, Falcon and Scorpion can use ECM effectivly, this would only boost Caldari - which is a bad thing! Do somthing funny with Tracking Disruptors isntead (for exampl, make them mess upp missiles targeting and navigation or something) and do something funny for Target Painters (make them usefull for anything other than missile ships for example, and make them usefull for anything other than ravens trying to torp frigs) And fro gawds sake; remove the redicelous stacking nerf of sensordampers!!! yay _ Killed my sig AGAIN! :p http://www.ninc.org/krubarax/images/2d/verydisco.jpg
Belladonna Nightshade	Posted - 2006.12.01 13:15:00 - [84] Originally by: Kaylana Syi Originally by: Ragnar forumwarrior Originally by: Loka Fights lasting longer is a good thing, as long as the one who won before would have won after Kali too, just it would take longer. Its not a good thing considering it will mean that : -Blasters and lasers gets shafted. More importantly its probably the final nail in the laser coffin. -Massive nerf to solo/small gang piracy. No longer can you and a mate jump into a system with 30 people, gank one of them then escape before they have time to react. This expansion with its redicilous pvp changes combined with new players getting 800k sp just prooves that the creators is thinking about money before gameplay. We now see EVE turned down to 'easy mode'. You don't seem to have the slightest idea what this game is about do you? You don't understand PVP, you don't understand game progression, and you obviously disregard all gameplay changes added to EVE to enhance pvp. Good job for being a retard. God job for being a troll.
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.12.01 13:58:00 - [85] Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 01/12/2006 13:59:20 Originally by: murder one Originally by: DemonStar Supernova Well that just stinks, I was under the impression the stacking penaltys were separated. You just ruined my night :( Armor rigs it is! Armor rigs f#ck your speed. Back to the drawing board... Fitting multiple plates screwed your mwd speed, agility and acceleration but that never stopped Mega pilots ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Ruciza	Posted - 2006.12.01 14:03:00 - [86] O no! Loka flying a setup on the edge, without much room for mistakes... He has a full gank setup, without tank, a setup that needs lots of cap to function... A well-tanked NOS ship might be what is needed to kill Loka... Along comes a very good NOS ship, the dreaded NOSdomi, and oy vay! He looses, because his cap goes away, cap he needs for his gank setup... The enemy Domi has 25% more HP now, and has 25% more time to NOS Loka to death... Loka also has 25% more cap now, so he now has 25% more time to resist the dastardly NOS attack, and 25% more time to fire his weapons, but how can that be important right... Because he mysteriously knows that always gank > tank, he knows that he should have the so called "I win button". Because of aaall his maxed out skills. His Mega is UNSTOPPABLE! He thinks. Why we can't know. Loka always wants to win. But, the world being as it is, he can't, and now he is sad. So sad. Loka's sad test result: Kali made his life impossible to live. It's tragic. Maybe Loka should go out there on TQ and continue to gank people with less than perfect anti-gankmega setups, as he did so often before.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.01 14:30:00 - [87] Originally by: Sandra Tseng And fro gawds sake; remove the redicelous stacking nerf of sensordampers!!! Actually every EW system but ECM has the same stacking penalities. And IMO the stacking penalities are fine there, 3 RSD II on an clestis/lachesis/arazu bring a ship to 5% of it's range. Even a rook with a sensor booster will have only 12k targeting range there. A raven with a sensor booster will have 7.5k range.
Sandra Tseng THE MISPHIT'S Kurai Komichi	Posted - 2006.12.01 14:37:00 - [88] ok fine.. But fitting three RSD's to damp ONE ship is gimping your setup a bit too much I think With three ECMs you could ptentially llock down three ships... Killed my sig AGAIN! :p http://www.ninc.org/krubarax/images/2d/verydisco.jpg
Bill Shankly	Posted - 2006.12.01 14:51:00 - [89] you shouldnt compare stuff to how it used to be, Revelatiosns is here now adapt or quit whining pls.
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.12.01 14:52:00 - [90] Originally by: Sandra Tseng ok fine.. But fitting three RSD's to damp ONE ship is gimping your setup a bit too much I think With three ECMs you could ptentially llock down three ships... Not as much as it gimps there setup since they can't target and/or end up in blaster range ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.

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