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Loka Gallente adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.30 08:32:00 - [1] Before i start my rant let me first introduce me. My name is Loka, i have 34mil sp. 13 mil in gunnery specialiased in hybrids Rails and Blasters. All Blaster and Rail large Spec lvl 5, BS lvl 5. Also lvl 5 skills in all skills of interests for a Blasterpilot. To make it short, maxed out. Now i was used that my Blasters woudl rip through anything smaller than a Capital in few seconds. I was used that i trade all my defense for pure offense. I was used that i cant tank, that my cap wont hold without boosters and that i have most time no chance to run, if i would loose a fight. My general setups were pure DPS. One of my setups was the maxed DPS Megathron. You cant have more DPS. Megathron: 7x Neutron II MWD, Heavy Inj, Web, Scramb 2x 1600mm, named DCU, EANMII, 3x Mag II That alone gave me around 1100 DPS, without Drones. Now why do i write this. Well i was yesterday again on the Testserver messing around with the Hyperion. I tried a semitanked Hyperion ... 4x Electron II, 4x Ion II MWD, scramb, web, Heavy Inj, ECM II 2x LARM, 2x EANMII, 2x Mag II The DPS is good on the paper and it tanked like hell. Still wtf iam here? Well i got killed over and over again, most time i thought, because ppl just nosed me dry. Well i thought nothing new and tried a gankhyperion. 8x Neutron II + 3 Mag II Result was same. I fought each time a Nossing ECM Domi. Well he didnt break my lock too ofte, just a few times, not that i would call it overpowered. Still pre Revelation i would have killed him much earlier. Than i thought **, this Hyperion sucks 10 times. I asked the guy to bring his tank again and i will bring my TQ Mega. The one above with Neutrons and Mag II. Till now only Cap ships were able to really tank my dmg. Well he again tanked my damage and we ended up me blown up and he 10% armor left. This couldnt be true. This megathron setup has been proved on battlefield 1000 times and was well worth called a DPS monster. I thought of a stealth nerf and there it was. Has anyone of you lately compared the old T2 ammo with the new T2 ammo? No, well let me do that for you .. old Ammo -------->>>> new Ammo First i was impressed, because the Void L range penalty was reduced from 65,5% to only 25%. My blasters could now hit up to 8km optimal with Void L fitted. Wow i thought. Then i saw the dmg ... and i was ed. Old dmg -> 28 kin/ 32 Thermal -> 60 New dmg -> 28 kin/ 28 kin -> 56 Well you say 4 dmg is not much, but its a 7% DPS reduction per gun. Well from my feeling i would agree saying, hey 4 dmg not much. Well mates, it was enough that i couldnt break a tank, where i could before. And now? Do i switch to my Vampire Dominix with ECM. Or maybe have 4/4 gun/vamps on my Hyperion with ECM in meds and heavy tank? I have 13 mil gunnery sp, i dont want to vampire someone to death. I want to blast big wholes into other ships, thats why i trained the Blasters. I am currently training my missileskills up, because i am just upset that my Blasterthron, who was the weakest and same time most feared ship from start of EVE with all its pro¦s and con¦s was nerfed again. I am flying the most dangerous style ingame, in an expensive ship, without the ability to run away if things went wrong. And now iam not even able to break a tank, with maxed skills and best DPS setup ingame. And now? Ah i know, i am forced to go back to the drawingboard and design setups to kill enemys cap, not their ships. Because that seems the only way to win as Gallente right now. But why than having gunery sp at all? Ah i remember, i can now use the Rokh and own anything everywhere in fleetbattles. I havent even bothered searching for more reasons or more stealth nerf of the gallente, because i want to contiue playing thigs game and such things just me too much off. Pls tell me iam wrong and i miss something here. _________________________ Noob In Action - [NIA]**
Verus Potestas Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.30 08:33:00 - [2] All the T2 ammo has been nerfed. It's in the patchnotes and has been on SiSi for ages. No "stealth" about it. Cry me a river. Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Greenwing	Posted - 2006.11.30 08:38:00 - [3] Edited by: Greenwing on 30/11/2006 08:42:13 Well, it's a nerf, but not really a stealth nerf -> http://myeve.eve-online.com/updates/patchnotes.asp # The damage of tech 2 ammos types: Gleam, Javelin, Quake, Conflagration, Void and Hail have been decreased by 6.66%, optimal range penalty has increased to 75%. So your conclusions are correct, about 7% less damage and a higher optimal range. And btw, missiles have also had a similar nerf, and i haven't checked the Rokh yet, but as far as i've heard it's also nerfed compared to it's test-version.
Loka Gallente adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.30 08:40:00 - [4] Originally by: Verus Potestas Cry me a river. Well seems i missed that official things. But pls help me out here and give me a solution. How again iam now supposed to kill anything as a Gallente, without killing your cap first? And i am not speaking about noob skills, i am speaking of maxed out skills here. No skill left to train anymore. The only thing i couldnt use yet was DMG Rigs. But it cant be that i have to be a maxedout Gallente, with 25mil sp invested for the use of Blasters and have to use a 50-100 mil worth of T2 modules and Rigs to be able to kill something with dual LAR II. Something wrong here. Now i have to bring dozens of friends to gank again. I am wondering why all ppl complain about beeing ganked and that EVE is a gankgame, when gank is the only thing left which is possible right now. _________________________ Noob In Action - [NIA]
Kiyano	Posted - 2006.11.30 08:42:00 - [5] Something is definately wrong here, Revelations is Nos heaven patch. He who has more Nos wins really.
Sutiru Haruto Aurora Empire Academy Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels	Posted - 2006.11.30 08:43:00 - [6] And here I was ***ing about how my arty's suck now...I am days away from training Large Projectile 5 and I was thinking about switching to Large Hybrid (an extra 30ish days) instead since Minny BS's are pretty blah now. Figured I got blasterthron and railrokh to be uber with. Now I hear blasterthron has gone the way of the stababond. Is Rohk the only good BS out there anymore? Raven for PvE, Rohk for PvP?? On the one hand I want to just fly the tempest since I like my minmatar frigs and cruisers...on the other hand, minmatar BS sucks, minmatar carrier sucks, minmatar dread sucks. Perhaps it's best to switch to a winning team before I invest to many SP in long skills...the question now becomes, which ***** team is that? Maybe I'll look into Amarr since I hear they make some good AC boats...
Securion Wolfheart Caldari Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2006.11.30 08:52:00 - [7] Wait... a Caldari ship that can be used to actually kill human players?!? -----====----- Whether we bring our enemies to justice or bring justice to our enemies, justice will be done.
Xenny Lee Minmatar The Splinter Syndicate SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.30 08:58:00 - [8] What makes me cry in my sleep when I think of the mega/hyperion.... I mean technically speaking, with the new rig slots, theres a couple new really interesting options that have opened up and while I do believe ya may be onto something in the sense that pure gank damage isnt "quite" as effective, the nerf of the T2 ammo isnt anything quite a stealth nerf like mentionned... heck if ya used range ammo the nerf is far worst in conjecture with the Hit point boost, but personnally I find that it makes some sense... Not because you spent that 2 months time training for it, but because it made T1 fitting any ship look reallly reallly bad... (Think T1 snipers) What reallly makes me cry is that the Rokh with that new higher optimal and tracking links and possibly Falloff rigs..... will be hitting at 50-60k with blasters... 200+ with Rails and can have a perfectly decent tank to go with it... How SAD is that...
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.30 09:02:00 - [9] I dunno where all the blaster pilots have been this whole time. I've been pointing out these exact problems for almost a month in the Kali Development Forum and all I got for my trouble was flames and more flames. Because I said so...
Andrew Redburn Caldari adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.30 09:05:00 - [10] Actually the best tank vs the best dps should be quite close, the outcome depending on skillpoints in my opinion. I hardly play since 1.5 Years. I log in from time to time, switch skills, play a few days to check out new patches but actually the game got ****** some long time ago. In my opinion it was that time, when BIG SHIPS could not kill small ships easily anymore. It was the time of the gunnery sig radius introduction and any further nerf in that direction. Something must be plain wrong, if the most dps ship in the game can not do enough dps to kill a single tanked battleship. I understand that any less dps (just think of 6 CM II Launchers on a Raven with maxed skills, it will do half dps or even less) should be tankable with maxed tankingskills plus equipment, but not in this shown situation. I imagine a Navy Issue ship or Tier 3 with best tanking gear sitting in front of a whole gang with maxed skills players laughing in local. I got 40M SP, hardly a few mill in industrial skills, and I can hardly kill any playership with missles these days (well, it was already hard prepatch), not to think of guns.

Loka Gallente adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.30 09:12:00 - [11] hey all my setups from now on will look like ... 5x Electron Blaster Cannon II 2x E500 Prototype Energy Vampire 500W Infectious Power System Malfunction Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Fleeting Progressive Warp Scrambler I ECM - Multispectral Jammer II Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets 2x Large Armor Repairer II (2600 repairing) Armor Explosive Hardener II N-Type Kinetic Hardener I 2x Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 10800 shield, 16.88/s, E/T/K/Ex=0/20/40/60 12360 armor, E/T/K/Ex=75/60/80/75 Why thinking about DPS, NOS all the way. 5 guns are enough to kill a defenseless enenemy. Hey wtf i have bothered again traing lvl 5 BS and lvl 5 Blasterspec, which that alone took me 2 months? Ah right i wanted to use my guns and shipbonus ... well never mind. Well i was on testserver and played with the new toys. But had lot of things to do on TQ :/ Petition: Change the +dmg bonus of the hyperion to a +resistance bonus. Than at least iam not upset not using the shipbonus. Thanks. _________________________ Noob In Action - [NIA]
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.30 09:13:00 - [12] Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 30/11/2006 09:14:09 I used: 8x Electron II MWD, scramb, web, Heavy Inj, ECM II 2x LARM, 2x EANMII, 1x dcu 1x Mag II 5x Med Ecm Drones & 5x valkyrie II's 1x More rep points rig Tried it against a bunch of diffrent ships and people, it worked reasonably well as long as i didnt run out of cap boosters. Blaster ships arent as good solo as they where pre-patch but they're still useable. If i wanted to fit nosf id fly a domi, i want guns ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Loka Gallente adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.30 09:16:00 - [13] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain I used: Quote: 8x Electron II MWD, scramb, web, Heavy Inj, ECM II 2x LARM, 2x EANMII, 1x dcu 1x Mag II 5x Med Ecm Drones & 5x valkyrie II's 1x More rep points rig Tried it against a bunch of diffrent ships and people, it worked reasonably well as long as i didnt run out of cap boosters. Blaster ships arent as good solo as they where pre-patch but they're still useable. Well look at the setup aboth. 4 Ions II instead of your 4 Electrons II. 1 DMG mod more instead of your EANM II. So i ended up with more DPS and couldnt break a good tanked BS. I could tank anything as long as i had Cap Boosters. But why bothering with DMG, if you cant break his tank. NOS all the way thats so boring. _________________________ Noob In Action - [NIA]
Kristoffer Amarr Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2006.11.30 09:19:00 - [14] Edited by: Kristoffer on 30/11/2006 09:22:18 Edited by: Kristoffer on 30/11/2006 09:20:05 Originally by: Loka Originally by: Joshua Foiritain I used: Quote: 8x Electron II MWD, scramb, web, Heavy Inj, ECM II 2x LARM, 2x EANMII, 1x dcu 1x Mag II 5x Med Ecm Drones & 5x valkyrie II's 1x More rep points rig Tried it against a bunch of diffrent ships and people, it worked reasonably well as long as i didnt run out of cap boosters. Blaster ships arent as good solo as they where pre-patch but they're still useable. Well look at the setup aboth. 4 Ions II instead of your 4 Electrons II. 1 DMG mod more instead of your EANM II. So i ended up with more DPS and couldnt break a good tanked BS. I could tank anything as long as i had Cap Boosters. But why bothering with DMG, if you cant break his tank. NOS all the way thats so boring. I tried to get that across weeks ago and I got flamed for it. My 4/4 Nos / Gun Hyp won 25 battleship 1v1s straight including fights against blasternos rokhs and no, none of the fights were enjoyable.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.11.30 09:24:00 - [15] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 30/11/2006 09:27:13 Hmm, thats strange, gallente pilots have told me that nobody ever uses that setup... By the way, Hail got nerfed with 8 damage, from 60 to 52. Originally by: murder one I dunno where all the blaster pilots have been this whole time. I've been pointing out these exact problems for almost a month in the Kali Development Forum and all I got for my trouble was flames and more flames. Could be because the other 3 races really think its time for gallente to lose sometimes. I dont know. But you're not the only one getting flamed... every time people discuss races and ships, they get flamed. Thats basically normal since people want to protect their skill time investment. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Loka Gallente adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.30 09:35:00 - [16] Edited by: Loka on 30/11/2006 09:35:49 well my problem isnt a my Cap, fitting or anything else. My problem is that with maxed skills and best DPS i can bring to the battlefied, i cant kill someone who is not shooting back at all. He will be able to sustain a tank, which is strong enough to tank all my DPS and sustain his CAP. And i am speaking of the best DPS i could bring, without using Rigs or faction Mods. Rigs i have to try, but it will be sad if you have to bring maxed skills DPS wise, T2 and Rigs to be able to kill someone 1vs1. Right now, if i cant kill his cap, i cant kill his ship. I remember a time, where this already was the case and it was a sad time. At least your AC dont use cap, which helps under this circumnstances alot, when taking the need of sustain your cap for been able to shoot back or tank. I am not saying that any Minmatar are fine. I am talking that this direction is wrong, where DPS doesnt mean anything. For Fleets its range what is necessary and for small combat is NOS and tanks. I want to use my guns to kill the enemy, not 8 NOS. _________________________ Noob In Action - [NIA]
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.11.30 09:42:00 - [17] Yeah, im not saying you are wrong Loka... in fact, your post sounds very reasonable to me. Something is very wrong when you cant kill stuff with that setup and that dps output. There is a reason Ive felt its overpowered for a long time, mostly because of the dps combined with the range though. But yeah, I agree with you. Something needs to be done about the fact that the king of blasterships no longer can take down the enemy at pointblank range. As much as I think gallente have all the win buttons, I cant honestly say that seems OK with me. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Loka Gallente adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.30 09:48:00 - [18] Yes the Dominix is overpower i agree. But the Blasterthron allways was giving up survivability for insane DPS. Catch a Blasterthron pilot on wrong terms and he wont stand any chance. Its far from an I-Win button. Just under the perfect conditions of the Blasterthron pilot you were doomed. But almost no tank didnt give it lot of room for failures. I liked the way it was. Ballanced in both directions. DPS was horrible when tanked and tank was horrible when fitted for DPS. Range was short and you had to go real close to fight back. Get double webbed and you were screwed. Had a tackler against you and you couldnt get into range -> you were screwed. Now i get into range and still its pointless, because i wont be able to break his tank. Sad day for me and my blasterthron. _________________________ Noob In Action - [NIA]
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.30 09:56:00 - [19] Well it could be worse - you could be flying Amarrian ships, capable of using T2 lasers, and finding that you do more damage with T1 projectiles and Large Projectile 3. Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
LeviUK Caldari hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.11.30 10:13:00 - [20] Welcome to Revelations tbh. I've always been a big fan of offensive over defensive setups but that simply doesn't work now. My first tryout in an Abaddon confirmed this, my gunnery skills aren't far off yours with 11m and most maxed apart from large pulse/beam spec at 4 and I tried to capitalize on this with a heavy gank setup (and still with a reasonable tank owing to the resists from Amarr BS5). Did it work? Did it hell. I was beaten by people with less than 5m in gunnery in everything from Scorpions to Hyperions, Rokhs with Blasters and even the minnie tier 3 one that I never remember the name of. Even with a heavy cap booster, I was drained dry by nos/neut combos. And so, begrudgingly, I adapted and ended up with a setup that sacrifices about half of my DPS for Nos/tank setups where I could win most of my fights. Unfortunately quick solo ganks are, for the most part, history and he/she with the best tank- and the most Nos - wins. I realise that was often the case pre-patch but it's certainly far more applicable now. -

Royaldo Old Farts The Phantom Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.11.30 10:28:00 - [21] I know exactly how you feel. Beeing intaki with base perc of 5, and trained bs5 and large blaster spec5 to get this.
KillmAll187	Posted - 2006.11.30 10:37:00 - [22] This sucks the big one tbfh. Everytime I set my sights on training for something, right before I get there it gets nerfed back to the stone age. Rax w/8 heavies-oh noes in comes the cut the drone bay in half nerf. Dominix with 15 heavies-dont ya wish, we'll just make 5 heavies the max. Hey that blasterthron looks like fun-nah well just nerf it so there is no point in trying to 1v1 and get in close. Gate camping is way more fun. I HATE NOS SETUPS FFS! If it doesn't have a bonus for a NOS I don't think there should be huge benefits to fit one.
Ebedar Gallente Primary Intelligence	Posted - 2006.11.30 10:57:00 - [23] A big part of the problem is that the swing towards tanking has been over-zealous and that the rigs for tanking ships are much easier to fit/use than those to make ships more damaging. It's possible now to create tanks (taking into account rigs and sometimes gang bonuses) which, 1v1, simply can't be beaten. I was playing around with a Hyperion setup that put out about 1500 DPS, yet it still lost to a ridiculously well tanked BC. Even taking into account how much damage blaster ships can potentially put out (though a big part of that is going to be thermal damage) they're simply not designed to outdamage the post-Revelations tank, especially as the damage is still very much pre-Revelations. Kills are going to rely more than ever on the opponent being badly set up or making a significant mistake. Still, it could be worse. We could be Amarr... ~ Balls > WCS
Laboratus Gallente BGG Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.30 11:04:00 - [24] Originally by: Ebedar A big part of the problem is that the swing towards tanking has been over-zealous and that the rigs for tanking ships are much easier to fit/use than those to make ships more damaging. It's possible now to create tanks (taking into account rigs and sometimes gang bonuses) which, 1v1, simply can't be beaten. I was playing around with a Hyperion setup that put out about 1500 DPS, yet it still lost to a ridiculously well tanked BC. Even taking into account how much damage blaster ships can potentially put out (though a big part of that is going to be thermal damage) they're simply not designed to outdamage the post-Revelations tank, especially as the damage is still very much pre-Revelations. Kills are going to rely more than ever on the opponent being badly set up or making a significant mistake. Still, it could be worse. We could be Amarr... It's getting even better: Apparently, rigs coun't towards stacking penalties, so: Usually ships are fit with multiple damage mods... Damage rigs are of little use, except to save slots for other modules, while there is nothing that will increase rep amount and stack with the tanking rigs, so you get full use of the tanking rigs. So the balance has swung: Tank > Gank Welcome: Duels with neither side being able to brake the other guys tank \o/ Seems like Nos/neut combo has become mandatory. I'm thinkin 5Nos 2Neut 1 pulse laser. Kill the cap, nibble him to death. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Pinky Denmark	Posted - 2006.11.30 11:14:00 - [25] I revelations many people see the importance of Resists and being able to repair your ship under combat... Gankships will have to think twice about engaging if they can't take the heat themself - That being said I hear boring stories of battleships being able to tank pretty much anything without a sweat until they run out of cap boosters... Nos is being a big problem though...
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.11.30 11:16:00 - [26] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 30/11/2006 11:17:32 I think gank is still better than tank, at least for minnie ships. Ive tried lots of tank setups and they always fail to gallente superior dps, or minnie gank setups. But this is on battlecruiser level. Everything is pretty different for battleships. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
slothe Caldari Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.30 11:23:00 - [27] any consolation i can see either nos being nerfed or being given extra skills to use like missiles, drones and ecm. interesting to see what happens after that. *Before complaining about any ship try flying Minmatar*
Zosimos Sabina Amarr Loot	Posted - 2006.11.30 11:23:00 - [28] They went out and said basically for Kali, they're nerfing gank. They want to put heat and weapon overdrive in. Gank setups have nowhere to go but to be less effective, and we will like it. Or quit. Pick one :) Not that I mind. Tanking ships have sucked a big one for a long time. Maybe I should dig out my Maller and Apoc now instead of always flying Thorax and MegaT.
Exogene	Posted - 2006.11.30 11:41:00 - [29] Originally by: Verus Potestas All the T2 ammo has been nerfed. It's in the patchnotes and has been on SiSi for ages. No "stealth" about it. Cry me a river. Cry me one too...yawn...next topic
slothe Caldari Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.30 12:22:00 - [30] wts faction large hybrid ammo, which ive been stockpiling for ages :D *Before complaining about any ship try flying Minmatar*



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