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Radioactive Babe	Posted - 2006.12.03 00:14:00 - [31] If a lev4 mission runner gets popped its cost him a minimum of 150mil ... an average mission runner has to do 15 missions to cover that. Any griefbear with a ECM setup will kill that npcer in minutes... 2 or 3 sensor dampners, scrambler and maybe a nos and the npcer is dead ... from first seeing him to local to him being dead = less than 7 or 8 minutes guaranteed (unless the griefbear is crap) The griefbears say, "bring friends its a mmo", and you pop them too ... they say risk/reward (with them taking the reward for tiny risk while the npcer has little reward for high risk) Basically the whole thing is skewed way too far in favour of the griefbear ... 0.4 - 0.1 will stagnate because there is far too much risk ...... regardless of reward, there is too much risk ...
TheDeceit Minmatar Veto.	Posted - 2006.12.03 00:17:00 - [32] It's your own pirate's fault for the low population there. You need to stop killing the carebears and start ransoming then. They don't die after ransoming, so they're free to fly away and breed with their other fellow carebears. That should repopulate low sec effectively. If carebears keep being hunted to extinction, then concord would need to enforce daily hunting limits. --------
Radioactive Babe	Posted - 2006.12.03 00:20:00 - [33] Originally by: TheDeceit It's your own pirate's fault for the low population there. You need to stop killing the carebears and start ransoming then. They don't die after ransoming, so they're free to fly away and breed with their other fellow carebears. That should repopulate low sec effectively. If carebears keep being hunted to extinction, then concord would need to enforce daily hunting limits. A different perspective ... and a good idea too <nelson>ha, ha</nelson>
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.03 00:22:00 - [34] Heres a thought- don't rat / mission in a special NPCing setup? Ever since day one of my EVE life, I've always NPC'd in a setup that I'd be happy to PvP in. A "carebear" in a BS, decent setup, is as much a pilot in a BSa as the pirate in the BS is. The pirate doesn't have MAGIK HAX that let him kill you, just becaue you're a mission runner and he's a pirate. Theres no reason why you should be giving easy kills if you're in a BS, as most lvl4 runners are. So you lose 5 minutes more time a mission- thats the price you pay for not getting popped all the time. If people insist on NPCing in "optimised" setups (with gaping holes in resists, odd damage types etc.) they'll have to take what they get. -----------------------------------------------
Ulfar	Posted - 2006.12.03 00:27:00 - [35] Anyone that asks for Level 4's to be moved to low sec is admitting that they don't have the skill to PvP without help. If you attacking someone while they are missioning then you are getting an advantage from the fact that person is already engaged in combat taking damage and could already be scrambled and webbed. They will also be set up for PvE and depending on area you as the agressor know which damage types to take and set up for PvP. So don't try and make out that you want a fair fight, you don't. If you want a fair fight go to 0.0 or war dec in empire. The reason you don't do this is because then people will know what you are up to before you get an easy kill, they may shock and horror be prepared which wouldn't be right now would it. Lowsec should be got rid off. There should be empire and 0.0, empire is for non-PVP people and 0.0 is for people who don't mind PVP.
Valan	Posted - 2006.12.03 00:28:00 - [36] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/12/2006 23:12:59 Originally by: Valan If rats were that interested in PvP they would move to empire and war dec corps. But they don't want a fight they want an easy gank. You wouldn't have to worry about timers or sentries its open war. In empire its difficult to see the enemy coming. They will be weary and not tanking half a dozen rats when you attack. No easy kills I'm afraid you'll have to work for your isk. Meh. You have apparently not tried pirating if you think its easy. Everybody who sees you will try to kill you, preferably with a blob and most likely call you a coward for not fighting the blob. Please try to live in low sec for a while and see how easy it is to gank mission runners, when you are likely to be attacked yourself by other pirates everywhere you go. If its really that easy, why arent everybody doing it btw? And you cant escape to high sec when you get tired of getting killed or chased around. You cant even buy modules without an alt. Just imagine that play style. Its pretty rough. But fun. Originally by: Ihar Enda Once you're in deep 0.0, it's safer than the Forge. Sure, but you can have trouble getting in and out of there. Buying ammo for example can be a problem unless you have a station out there. Lived in Placid and Syndicate for quite a long time. Its just as difficult getting a fight when you're an anti pirate. The only way is an ambush. The point I was trying to make is that an empire war is the best way to pirate if you actually want to fight. Especially if you war dec some large corps or an alliance. The lions follow the herd not try and get the heard to move in next door. No standings loss and you join the Q into Jita anytime. But I'm betting most people who want their targets back in low sec don't actually want an even numbers fight. Anyway if a pirate attacks you while you're pirating its still a fight, its PvP. Only difference is they're going to be equipped for a fight and you can't guess their fit. What low sec rats actually want is a load of ships with cookie cutter fittings sat in a jump Q at a bottle neck. I'm thinking of switching play styles. War deccing empire mission corps has to be the way to go. Good loot, a tendancy to want to stay in one place due to LPs. Throw a lion into Rens and chase them out to low sec. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
Ihar Enda Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.03 00:29:00 - [37] Originally by: Deikan Frost Well, why not add "Gang" missions then? Missions you can only do when you're more than a few players, as in the agent won't even give you the mission if you are not already in a gang of a certain size, and the Navigation Beacon will not let you warp unless you are in a gang either. THAT would attract people in low-sec since they wouldn't be alone. The rewards for such missions would of course be very big since the loot and isk would be splitted through all the gang members and the enemies would be a lot stronger too... You could have 'Escort" type missions, where you have to cover some NPC's while they repair a station or something (hence needing more than one pilot to do the job) and such... There's a lot of possibilities for gang missions... Would THAT be good enough for you? Or you would prefer to have more "solo" players venture in low sec so you can get easy kills? Yes, some good ideas here. Some other people have also mentioned giving low sec some unique rewards, that cannot be found in 0.0/high sec. I don't care if solo or group players come to low sec, as long as I don't have to fight against (or fight in) blobs of tens of ships. Also, if low sec rewards will be raised substantially, people will spread out more. So will the pirates. Right now everyone is clustered in a handful of "key" systems.
Radioactive Babe	Posted - 2006.12.03 00:31:00 - [38] Originally by: Patch86 Heres a thought- don't rat / mission in a special NPCing setup? Ever since day one of my EVE life, I've always NPC'd in a setup that I'd be happy to PvP in. A "carebear" in a BS, decent setup, is as much a pilot in a BSa as the pirate in the BS is. The pirate doesn't have MAGIK HAX that let him kill you, just becaue you're a mission runner and he's a pirate. Theres no reason why you should be giving easy kills if you're in a BS, as most lvl4 runners are. So you lose 5 minutes more time a mission- thats the price you pay for not getting popped all the time. If people insist on NPCing in "optimised" setups (with gaping holes in resists, odd damage types etc.) they'll have to take what they get. ECM ... thats what griefbears have that the mission runner doesnt (and scramblers/webbers) and we are not talking about adding 5 minutes onto a mission, using a pvp setup will mean your tank suffers and you will have to warp out on some of the tough ones .. and then the mission will take 50%+ more time to complete Take for example a Raven, widely used for lev4 missions ... are you suggesting that the tank be dropped and people fit sensor booster/ECM/RSD/etc in mids and cruise launchers instead of torps? ... because that is the only way you are going to have a chance
Ihar Enda Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.03 00:33:00 - [39] Originally by: TheDeceit It's your own pirate's fault for the low population there. You need to stop killing the carebears and start ransoming then. They don't die after ransoming, so they're free to fly away and breed with their other fellow carebears. That should repopulate low sec effectively. If carebears keep being hunted to extinction, then concord would need to enforce daily hunting limits. Let's have concord sell rights to kill carebears. Say, 10 mil per.
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.12.03 00:34:00 - [40] BS rats (up to 500k) in 0.3 and below.
Gonada Gallente Cross Roads	Posted - 2006.12.03 00:34:00 - [41] too funny. a lame wanna be pirate asking for CCP to push people into a lowsec he has driven them out of because of his lameness. -I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.- -nerf Missles-
Radioactive Babe	Posted - 2006.12.03 00:37:00 - [42] Originally by: Valan Throw a lion into Rens and chase them out to low sec. I think you'll find that this is happening there all the time anyways, TNT love to wardec corps/alliances and then sit in docking distance of the main rens station and try to gank people who are exiting the station (ready to dock if a few flashingred people appear) <nelson>ha, ha</nelson>
Radioactive Babe	Posted - 2006.12.03 00:39:00 - [43] Originally by: Gonada too funny. a lame wanna be pirate asking for CCP to push people into a lowsec he has driven them out of because of his lameness. Nail. Head. <nelson>ha, ha</nelson>
Valan	Posted - 2006.12.03 00:45:00 - [44] Originally by: Radioactive Babe Originally by: Valan Throw a lion into Rens and chase them out to low sec. I think you'll find that this is happening there all the time anyways, TNT love to wardec corps/alliances and then sit in docking distance of the main rens station and try to gank people who are exiting the station (ready to dock if a few flashingred people appear) Kinda proved my point. They want to PvP haulers, setups they know they can beat, solo pilots and mining barges. Generally speaking your average 'pvepr' doesn't want a target to shoot back. It pretty much applies to everyone in EVE. Golden rule only pick fights you think you can win. I don't see why high sec is required at all apart from a few noobie systems. Downgrade the lot. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
Radioactive Babe	Posted - 2006.12.03 00:52:00 - [45] Originally by: Valan Kinda proved my point. They want to PvP haulers, setups they know they can beat, solo pilots and mining barges. Generally speaking your average 'pvepr' doesn't want a target to shoot back. It pretty much applies to everyone in EVE. Golden rule only pick fights you think you can win. I don't see why high sec is required at all apart from a few noobie systems. Downgrade the lot. Shooting someone before they can even see space is the lamest PvP (stretching the meaning of PvP there) there is in this game ... its akin to sitting outside newbie stations and popping them, hilarous no doubt in some minds, but the majority consider them to be the scum of the universe ... in my mind, you have talked yourself into that category as well... <nelson>ha, ha</nelson>
Sev Renard Gallente Elite Storm Enterprises Storm Armada	Posted - 2006.12.03 00:55:00 - [46] Originally by: Ulfar Anyone that asks for Level 4's to be moved to low sec is admitting that they don't have the skill to PvP without help. Generalizations are bad mmkay? As a fulltime 0.0 resident, I'm definately for moving lvl4's to lowsec. Why? Because if you manage to get caught in one, all it means, is that you didn't scan local. If I were running a mission, I'd much rather dock and save myself the trouble of worrying whether or not an evil piwate was going to shoot at me. I would think the carebear population would love the new local changes. As far as probes are concerned. I do agree that it has become too easy, however, it is still a step in the right direction. Probing used to be similar to witchcraft in that only a few people could do it, and the results were iffy at that. Now, it's just plain silly. _________________________________________ I wonder which will come first, my portrait, or a sig hijack...
Nicholai Pestot Gallente Havoc Inc	Posted - 2006.12.03 01:22:00 - [47] Is probing too easy now? Yes Is it fun attacking people whos entire eve-life consists of spamming a 'make isk button'? Hell Yes Am i laughing at people who consider hunting in 0.0 to be harder than hunting in lowsec...yes. Interdictors? Bubbles? No turrets??!!! Heaven. I just dont feel like a real pirate unless i get that sweet,sweet sec hit Oh and thanks to the miracle of probage i bagged a logistics ship for the first time ever last night \0/ If only the tempest and nighthawk with him had stayed and fought my friend's and I's two tech I battlecruisers he might have had a chance Cowardly carebears, is there anything more succulent and tender? ________________ What you do is you store up the rage, let it fester while you gain strength, then use it to gank those weaker than you... and so the circle of life is complete
Zell Caldari The Black Raptors	Posted - 2006.12.03 01:25:00 - [48] Last year called, they want there thread back... "Ginger Magician is just a nublet. I've met more people ingame that have laughed about him, than anyone else in Eve." "A coward dies a thousand times, the brave die just once.."
Bastogne Caldari Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.12.03 01:25:00 - [49] Dear pirates who complain about people not being in low-sec, Move to 0.0 or start wardecing Empire corps. I swear pirates whine more than any other group in this game.
Sev Renard Gallente Elite Storm Enterprises Storm Armada	Posted - 2006.12.03 01:37:00 - [50] Originally by: Bastogne Dear pirates who complain about people not being in low-sec, Move to 0.0 or start wardecing Empire corps. I swear pirates whine more than any other group in this game. I'm sorry... but just "moving to 0.0" isn't as viable of a solution as one might think, as Alliances like to outnumber their opponents as well if they want to fight. As far as whining more than any other group in the game... I'm not sure whether I should laugh at you for making such a statement, or feel sorry for your ignorance regarding any of the other issues that eve has. Also, there is a distinction to be made between the pirates and the gankers. A pirate will more often than not ransom their opponent, and will even take risks such as fighting outnumbered to get to that point. A ganker will gallantly charge at your majestic badger II and bravely 1-volley it before warping off and posting it to their killboard. _________________________________________ I wonder which will come first, my portrait, or a sig hijack...
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.12.03 01:41:00 - [51] Originally by: Ihar Enda Give people enough reward, and they will take the risk. Not quite. Enough reward AND not having to run back to a hub for T1 modules and amo, and... //Maya
Faykan Corrino	Posted - 2006.12.03 02:01:00 - [52] Originally by: Sev Renard Originally by: Ulfar Anyone that asks for Level 4's to be moved to low sec is admitting that they don't have the skill to PvP without help. Generalizations are bad mmkay? As a fulltime 0.0 resident, I'm definately for moving lvl4's to lowsec. Why? Because if you manage to get caught in one, all it means, is that you didn't scan local. If I were running a mission, I'd much rather dock and save myself the trouble of worrying whether or not an evil piwate was going to shoot at me. I would think the carebear population would love the new local changes. As far as probes are concerned. I do agree that it has become too easy, however, it is still a step in the right direction. Probing used to be similar to witchcraft in that only a few people could do it, and the results were iffy at that. Now, it's just plain silly. Its stupidly easy to get around the local problem as a pirate in low sec, if its any system that has any traffic coming through it at all, you would have to log every time you see a new name in local... pirates are hard to identify alot of the times.. i mean all you would really need to totally fool anyone is a probe alt in a gang with you, you stay in the other system alt scans down a runner, and boom you get in on him almost instantly. Pirates just want to gank and claim it was a good fight or make fun of how newb the opponent was.
Ryas Nia Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2006.12.03 02:19:00 - [53] Originally by: TheDeceit It's your own pirate's fault for the low population there. You need to stop killing the carebears and start ransoming then. They don't die after ransoming, so they're free to fly away and breed with their other fellow carebears. That should repopulate low sec effectively. If carebears keep being hunted to extinction, then concord would need to enforce daily hunting limits. You are correct... Piracy needs to return to the game, Pirates need to ransom ships and not just blow them up. Leave that to the Terrorists like me :P We have a reason to want you out of that area, pirates are better servered when people stay.
Ardus Brintar	Posted - 2006.12.03 05:09:00 - [54] I doubt that will change the population in low sec (0.1-0.4). People don't go there because they hear about other people getting killed by far more experienced players for whom they are little more challenge than a 0.8 npc rat. They hear on the starting corp channels about brave individuals who tried low sec and found out for the first time about warp scramblers and target jamming and lost their only ship. They themselves may have been killed for sport by a group of ships in low security. If you listen to the starting corp channel, a lot of them are too afraid to even go out to low sec to pick up something for a mission from a station, which has relatively low risk if you check the map first. Net result - a lot more than that one person who ventured out and got ganked simply say no to low security until they are ready, something that never happens. These are people living solo in empire space who are working the hardest for their isk so the lose takes longer to overcome and leaves a lasting impression. As far as moving level 4 agents - I've been helping with them and surviving the tens of thousands of hit points the gangs of NPC's inflict in less than a minute along with the increasingly more common lag are more than enough of a challenge on some of the 4000 loyalty point ones - add in low sec risks like thieves or gankers and they aren't worth it. Low security already has significantly better ores and is far more profitable to mine than high security - none of the higher values ores with lots of nocxium and omber exist in high sec and nothing with zydrine and megacyte. Making low security more profitable/nerfing high security was tried over a year or two ago. Lets face reality, for mining the real problem is the typical covetor with tech2 gear is worth 90+M. You need one hauler for every two covetors. A cheap tech 1 solo blackbird can easily destroy either. If the blackbird has a single friend along in a cheap tech 1 cruiser, miners stand no chance. The ores in low sec aren't worth a 90M ship lose per day and the corps witht enough people and online time to consistently put together a good mining group and hauling group and protection group probably moved out to 0.0. Assuming you survive the mining op and get a couple hours of ore mined, you now have get the ores out of low security because people won't go there to buy them. Making the rat spawns be on par with 0.0 only adds to the challenge miners face. Bring protection? That costs in one way or another and unless there are enough miners participating, isn't always worth it. For commerce, its an issue of travel safety. Eve is a player based economy. Without a safe supply of minerals, industry doesn't thrive. Without industry there aren't any goods. Without goods, people keep having to go back to empire. Keep killing the haulers and miners, and low sec remains undesirable. Things like warp to zero encourage people into low sec because they stand a better chance of getting in and out of low sec systems. So you might start to see more commerce. However this come with the warp core stabilizer nerfs and I hear they are planning to letting people warp bubble in the future so it sounds like no net change in desirability. If you want the population to rise in low security, the perceived safety level of going to low security has to rise significantly. That means things like gate to gate/station travel need to be relatively safe so industry can flourish and people will venture out to low security to explore. Once people explore low sec and see the ore types and better rewards and see its not impossible, as long they don't get ganked or ransomed every day they might actually stay. Ship insurance also needs an option to get current market average/lowest cost for the ship and all modules not just mineral cost for the ship so having your ship loaded with tech 2 gear ganked isn't a huge loss.
Shugo Kazuma	Posted - 2006.12.03 05:42:00 - [55] I wonder if perhaps a solution to the balance here wouldn't be to introduce DED spawns on agression. These wouldn't be the uber "death to be unto" Concord ships you see in 0.5+, but make it so that if you're busy blowing the **** out of people in lowsec unlawfully you'll have to fight off some DED spawns that are gunning for you and your friends. People might be more willing to get into lowsec if there's at least the remote possibility that they can win with the help of some standard DED ships. I mean, as is, unless you're fighting at the gates, you really have no support other than any corp/gang/anti pies that happen to be around.
Rudolf Miller	Posted - 2006.12.03 06:15:00 - [56] Edited by: Rudolf Miller on 03/12/2006 06:22:41 You want to populate low sec. Eliminate it. Implement the high sec PVP rules (complete with Concord response) for .4 to .1 systems. We will the have sec and no sec. Problem solved. In the end this is what will happen. You can't make the risk adverse masses assume the risk; no matter how big the reward.
Hotice	Posted - 2006.12.03 06:29:00 - [57] Edited by: Hotice on 03/12/2006 06:34:47 lol, if ccp took your idea, they wouldn't have to worry about repopulate low sec. Instead, they have to worry about repopulate Eve. There is going to be a very large chunk of account closing when this change hits. If you think ccp love pirates more than their real life bank account, you really need to get your head examed. Solution? Well, make low sec truely "low sec." not "no sec." When low sec is more dangerous than 0.0, then something is very wrong there. I think most would agree that low sec is more dangerous than 0.0 right now. Time to do something about that if you want repopulate the world. Things such as no docking for anybody below certain sec rating. Make pirates have to setup PoS if they want a place hide, random DED patrol. DED ship spawn after certain number of player ship killed by pirates would be a few good steps. Pirates should be hunted by any and everybody constantly. However, they are not right now. They use all the low sec station. Buy/sell anything with their alters and such. There isn't much of hard life to speak of.
Rudolf Miller	Posted - 2006.12.03 06:38:00 - [58] Edited by: Rudolf Miller on 03/12/2006 06:45:25 My head is fine, thank you. CCP will need to make that choice. But it will take that type of action to populate low sec; otherwise, it will stay as is. Human nature is what it is. Pirates, that is a poor name. Antisocial personality disorder (abbreviated APD or ASPD) is a psychiatric diagnosis in the DSM-IV-TR recognizable by the disordered individual's impulsive behavior, disregard for social norms, and indifference to the rights and feelings of others. Approximately 3% of men and 1% of women are thought to have some form of antisocial personality disorder according to the DSM-IV.
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.12.03 06:55:00 - [59] I don't understand you whiner pirates. Everyone else in the entire game has to go where the resources are. You think those crokite miners wouldn't prefer to mine it in highsec? You think the POS owners wouldn't prefer to operate in highsec? You go where the resources are. So why is it that you guys feel like exceptions to this rule and expect CCP to bring the resources you want to where you'd prefer to be? Hmm? Get your lazy asses out into 0.0 and hunt.
Nahia Senne Fortunis Novum	Posted - 2006.12.03 07:07:00 - [60] i agree that lowsec should be on par with .0 as far as rat spawns are concerned. between .0 and empire, there is simply no reason to go lowsec. Make ECCM viable! Give it 25% to scanning resolution!

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