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Semper Sanguis	Posted - 2006.12.04 00:24:00 - [1] Local as an intelligence tool is incredibly lame. Removing it will make the game more challenging for both hunter and prey. It'll be easier to hide, and harder to spot people sneaking. It'll make a real profession out of recon, surveillance and spying, and make ambushes viable. There is absolutely zero reason for local to exist. It benefits no one but the very extreme carebear or very extreme lazy-pirate. Just remove it already.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.12.04 00:26:00 - [2] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 04/12/2006 00:26:14 Let people CLOSE local, so they don't have to see it. Thanks CCP! Oh, and for reasons local exists, let's start with the word "communuity". Thanks. //Maya
Semper Sanguis	Posted - 2006.12.04 00:30:00 - [3] You are completely aware of what "Remove Local" means Maya and it has nothing to do with removing the ability to chat with other people in the system.
Oedus Caro Caldari Caldari Deep Space Ventures	Posted - 2006.12.04 00:32:00 - [4] There are good reasons on either side of the debate... In my opinion, the solution is quite simple: Remove Local channels from those systems having security below 0.5 - for the die-hard role players, think of it as a CONCORD service, just like gate security and system policing. That way high-traffic systems at the heart of empire retain that "community" feel, and low-sec becomes more anonymous, as it should be.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.12.04 00:32:00 - [5] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 04/12/2006 00:33:32 Yes, it has everything to do with that, because anyone stupid enough to chat would be kicked from any corp with a clue. And that's one of many points. Here's another: Risk/rewards allready makes 0.0 marginally viable for many players, the removal of local will lead to many leaving, and others sitting newb alts in shuttles at the gates, and logging whenever an enemy turns up. So you'll never ever see their miners. "As it should be" IF you want to kill any semblence of "game" in Eve, yes. As it should be to travel for hours without any feel of being arround anyone else, of spending an evening fruitnessly hunting for people who left hours ago, getting invisible lagspikes from fleets you can't detect killing you...etc. I prefer Eve to be FUN, thanks! If local stops you killing people, that's your personal skill issues. NOT the game's fault. //Maya
EvilTwin I Implant Liberation Front	Posted - 2006.12.04 00:32:00 - [6] "local chat" is just as importend as Tech II and "Friends"
EvilTwin I Implant Liberation Front	Posted - 2006.12.04 00:33:00 - [7] going to high sec empire with an Alt ..And read/chat local can be extremly fun
Semper Sanguis	Posted - 2006.12.04 00:37:00 - [8] Quote: Yes, it has everything to do with that, because anyone stupid enough to chat would be kicked from any corp with a clue. And that's one of many points. Here's another: Risk/rewards allready makes 0.0 marginally viable for many players, the removal of local will lead to many leaving, and others sitting newb alts in shuttles at the gates, and logging whenever an enemy turns up. So you'll never ever see their miners. How does removing local make 0.0 less viable? You can't see people, and people can't see you the moment they jump in. How many random gank squads will go around and scan every system from one end to the other just to kill a lone miner? Answer: very few. Removing local benefits the lone miner who would otherwise be hunted down. And you can have your "sense of community" (lol) after you ambush someone, or when you're not in any danger of exposing yourself, or simply by joining specific channels for socializing instead of local. From what I can see from your other posts, you seem to be very tense tonight Maya. Maybe you should take a break for a while
Semper Sanguis	Posted - 2006.12.04 00:43:00 - [9] Since you edited your post; Quote: "As it should be" IF you want to kill any semblence of "game" in Eve, yes. As it should be to travel for hours without any feel of being arround anyone else, of spending an evening fruitnessly hunting for people who left hours ago, getting invisible lagspikes from fleets you can't detect killing you...etc. Thats your personal skill issues Maya. If you can use your scanner and take the extra time (a minute maybe?) to look around instead of browsing local for targets in a FPSeqsue manner, the absence of local isn't the problem. Your extremely lazy ADHD mentality is. Quote: I prefer Eve to be FUN, thanks! If local stops you killing people, that's your personal skill issues. NOT the game's fault. I prefer EVE to be fun too Maya! I don't want a pirate to jump into the system I'm peacefully mining in, and instantly know I'm there! I'd prefer the ability to hide! Oh, thats not about me killing people is it? Seriously Maya, your arguments are twice as worse than usual when you're posting just for the sake of it.
Yarek Balear The Initiative	Posted - 2006.12.04 00:43:00 - [10] One of the first things that struck me when I started EVE many moons ago was the feeling of community. Part of this was seeing players in local and getting a feeling that I could interact with other players at any point in time. This is an important feature for new players joining the game or people that aren't PVPing all the time. So... What about removing local updates when you are in 0.0 ? Set it so that if you are in 0.0 you only see what's typed and only see players names that have typed in while you were there. In empire, keep it as is. Just a kind of half-way house...
Semper Sanguis	Posted - 2006.12.04 00:46:00 - [11] Quote: One of the first things that struck me when I started EVE many moons ago was the feeling of community. Part of this was seeing players in local and getting a feeling that I could interact with other players at any point in time. This is an important feature for new players joining the game or people that aren't PVPing all the time. So... What about removing local updates when you are in 0.0 ? Set it so that if you are in 0.0 you only see what's typed and only see players names that have typed in while you were there. In empire, keep it as is. Just a kind of half-way house... That is an option but you assume that empire space is excluded from PvP. This isn't true with corp wars and such. Also, there are plenty of channels for everything you can imagine, more than enough to substitute for local. Also, if you want to talk to people, all you have to do is type and wait for someone to reply! It doesn't remove any sense of community, it just removes the super-intelligence factor.
Chian XinLian	Posted - 2006.12.04 00:46:00 - [12] Removing local would mean hard time for prey - damn easy time for hunter. Currently probes are **** easy to use by anyone - they find your target fast and easy (ask any lowsec mission runner how they feel about it) Also, if someone would be ratting.. Hunter hops into system , ratter is totally un-aware of him until that hunter scanned him in a second from belt and is about next allready banging damage.. So nope, removing local wouldnt cut it unless probes would be tampered with and scanner possibly completely removed..
Extinctor Fortis Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.04 00:46:00 - [13] I agree, local should not be a tactical tool, and optional for the user to broadcast themselves.. No one really uses it for chat in low sec systems anyways. Corporations have corpchat, alliances have alliance chat, and allied alliances have joint channels - assuming they aren't all using Teamspeak in the first place. I think it would create more immersion, and excitement. EVE is just so boring when you don't have to work for information. It puts everyone on the same playing field, when clearly, not everyone is of the same skill. And without losers, there are no winners.
Samurai1	Posted - 2006.12.04 00:49:00 - [14] currently local shows whos outlaws and anyone you have good/bad standings with your corporation. Some how i dont think ccp are going anywhere near to what you would like to plan.
Oedus Caro Caldari Caldari Deep Space Ventures	Posted - 2006.12.04 00:51:00 - [15] Originally by: Semper Sanguis [Removing local] ...has nothing to do with removing the ability to chat with other people in the [same] system. Certainly it does not remove the ability to chat with other people in the same system, but it does facilitate it greatly. I got to know most of my current friends and acquaintances via spontaneous chats with them in the local channel, chats which would probably have never occurred, had I not seen beforehand that other people were in the channel. I think this is why local as it exists today is superior to the "anonymous-without-speech" version that has occasionally been proposed. My suggestion would preserve this community window where it shines - high security systems. In low security and 0.0 systems, most people are generally going to be doing things with other people who are in or allied to their corporation, in which case local is much less useful as a social tool.
Imba Bambi	Posted - 2006.12.04 00:51:00 - [16] Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 04/12/2006 00:33:32 Here's another: Risk/rewards allready makes 0.0 marginally viable for many players, the removal of local will lead to many leaving, and others sitting newb alts in shuttles at the gates, and logging whenever an enemy turns up. So you'll never ever see their miners. "As it should be" IF you want to kill any semblence of "game" in Eve, yes. As it should be to travel for hours without any feel of being arround anyone else, of spending an evening fruitnessly hunting for people who left hours ago, getting invisible lagspikes from fleets you can't detect killing you...etc. I prefer Eve to be FUN, thanks! If local stops you killing people, that's your personal skill issues. NOT the game's fault. Here we go again, the old risk vs reward argument. You can always increase rewards by fixing droprates, increasing mission payoff in 0.0, whatever. Thus risk vs reward is no valid argument here, but only whether local is a good tool by itself. And btw, you can no longer have newb accounts online at the same time as your main. Also, there are many suggestions that will fix the community problem, for example 2 minute delayed local appearance and constellation chat. People who are hunting dont want to chat in the first moments either way, people who just fly through wont have along chat other than hi, and everybody elsecan still talk under these rules. Community chat should never be forced upon players who want to play a hide and seek game. Constellation chat will see to it that you never feel alone, and that you know that the enemy miner/fleet is somewhere out there. Actually, it will greatly encourage teamplay of different hunting squads across systems.
Semper Sanguis	Posted - 2006.12.04 00:55:00 - [17] Quote: Certainly it does not remove the ability to chat with other people in the same system, but it does facilitate it greatly. I got to know most of my current friends and acquaintances via spontaneous chats with them in the local channel, chats which would probably have never occurred, had I not seen beforehand that other people were in the channel. I think this is why local as it exists today is superior to the "anonymous-without-speech" version that has occasionally been proposed. My suggestion would preserve this community window where it shines - high security systems. In low security and 0.0 systems, most people are generally going to be doing things with other people who are in or allied to their corporation, in which case local is much less useful as a social tool. As I said, local is hardly the only way to chat. There are plenty of channels for specific purposes, for specific groups etc. And again, you can declare yourself in local just like you did before. Removing local does nothing but add to immersion and strategy.
Quivox Alkar ORUS Corporate United Corporations of Eve	Posted - 2006.12.04 01:05:00 - [18] Edited by: Quivox Alkar on 04/12/2006 01:05:50 I think the best option is to only show in local who talks. So, if you are in the system and drop a line in local, you will appear visible to whom is at the same system. If you leave the system, you disappear from local (so that people won't be talking to a wall).
Extinctor Fortis Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.04 01:06:00 - [19] I am very happy others have recognized this as well. Usually such threads get trolled by individuals who enjoy having this advantage, and would fear losing it. I know some of my corpmates do not like hearing about it either, since they fear any sort of change. But at the end of the day, EVE is about interacting with players. And if you find socializing in local chat is your form of interaction, by all means - do it. But it should not come at the expense of so much potential. When I first came to EVE, I envisioned 0.0 would be mysterious and unknown. A lawless place where anything goes, anything can happen, and you never know what to expect. Its less like the wild wild west, and more like Chucky Cheese. Everyone gets a prize just for showing up.
Chian XinLian	Posted - 2006.12.04 01:10:00 - [20] After thinking it a bit more. Removing local would require a lot of overhaul in current map system too. Removing local would require removing any statistical data from map about systems (pilots in space past 30min, pilots docked and active, etc)
Coasterbrian Celestial Fleet Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.04 01:10:00 - [21] No. Kthx. You are person number 348682349 to suggest this in the last three-plus years. Don't you think that if it was viable or inline with intended gameplay mechanics, CCP would have implemented it already? ---------- I say what I mean, but I don't always mean what I say.
Razin	Posted - 2006.12.04 01:15:00 - [22] Edited by: Razin on 04/12/2006 01:16:35 Originally by: Chian XinLian Removing local would mean hard time for prey - damn easy time for hunter. Currently probes are **** easy to use by anyone - they find your target fast and easy (ask any lowsec mission runner how they feel about it) Also, if someone would be ratting.. Hunter hops into system , ratter is totally un-aware of him until that hunter scanned him in a second from belt and is about next allready banging damage.. So nope, removing local wouldnt cut it unless probes would be tampered with and scanner possibly completely removed.. As a Local-nerf mitigation factor an active scan notification system could be added to the game. The system would notify you when someone is using the scanner or the scan probe that has you in its range. Actually this should be added anyway, as it only makes sense. That is, your active scanning should give you away. ...
Romeda Minmatar Trojan industries	Posted - 2006.12.04 01:18:00 - [23] sigh another "remove-local-topic" do we really need more?
Messiah Fong	Posted - 2006.12.04 01:27:00 - [24] As regards to "active" scanning, why not make it work like sonar? you don't get seen unless you active scan. If you are "quiet" you won't be detected. Integrate that with propulsion changes and such. A group of battleships moving together will be easily detected by a passive scanner. Just an idea if the devs want to give the whole system an overhaul. It probably needs lots of work.
Troy Knight	Posted - 2006.12.04 01:28:00 - [25] This is ridiculous, you want to make low sec space to have even less people moving around there? As it stands a pirate can jump on a lone miner,warp jam and kill without much problem at all. Local is the only way for an active dsplay to keep a heads up on those who play this game simply to be mean and shoot struggling players down. Until you can find another way to have that heads up that the Local give you, then I say keep it.--those who want to get rid of it don't want to have any resistance or hardship in getting their kills.
Extinctor Fortis Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.04 01:30:00 - [26] Originally by: Coasterbrian No. Kthx. You are person number 348682349 to suggest this in the last three-plus years. Don't you think that if it was viable or inline with intended gameplay mechanics, CCP would have implemented it already? Kinda like Titans, Jovians, Jumpdrives, and Empire Building. Eh? Just because it takes CCP years to get around to something, does not mean it isn't going to happen, and definitely does not mean it shouldn't. Addressing the local chat issue is more relevant than any of the features in Kali 1, Kali 2, Kali 3, EVE Vista, walking on stations, or planetary interaction. I am very suprised someone from the biggest 0.0 entity ingame would be abhorrently opposed to what is essentially more content for them.
St Dragon Blood Association of Dragons	Posted - 2006.12.04 01:30:00 - [27] Originally by: Messiah Fong As regards to "active" scanning, why not make it work like sonar? you don't get seen unless you active scan. If you are "quiet" you won't be detected. Integrate that with propulsion changes and such. A group of battleships moving together will be easily detected by a passive scanner. Just an idea if the devs want to give the whole system an overhaul. It probably needs lots of work. Do you know how much it costs to make one scan probe ----------------------------------------------- "Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Jean Rostand
Admai Sket	Posted - 2006.12.04 01:31:00 - [28] Originally by: Oedus Caro Remove Local channels from those systems having security below 0.5 - for the die-hard role players, think of it as a CONCORD service, just like gate security and system policing. That way high-traffic systems at the heart of empire retain that "community" feel, and low-sec becomes more anonymous, as it should be. THIS IS GOOD. /signed this post. --------- NEED A SIG PLEASE.
Razin	Posted - 2006.12.04 01:40:00 - [29] Originally by: Chian XinLian After thinking it a bit more. Removing local would require a lot of overhaul in current map system too. Removing local would require removing any statistical data from map about systems (pilots in space past 30min, pilots docked and active, etc) Yes. And this should already be removed from general access in 0.0. This info should only be available for alliances and only for systems they have sovereignty over. ...
Razin	Posted - 2006.12.04 01:44:00 - [30] Edited by: Razin on 04/12/2006 01:49:34 Originally by: Messiah Fong As regards to "active" scanning, why not make it work like sonar? you don't get seen unless you active scan. If you are "quiet" you won't be detected. Integrate that with propulsion changes and such. It's not just the sonar that works that way. Any active detection system has this drawback. And so it should in EVE. Your passive detector is the Overview. In addition to this maybe passive scan probes could be introduced with very limited range (same as the Overview) and a long life time (around 20-30 mins). ...

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