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Lojack Girl	Posted - 2006.12.04 14:05:00 - [1] Basacily this is a thread about "NET NUTRALITY" i asked my corpmates what they fought of net nutrality and they only comment i got back was "what you mean Beastiality?" so im just making sure the rest of eve knows whats happening. As some of you mabe aware in the US rules are being formed that will impact the way the internet works, i.e. maga corps want the internet to work diffrently so that it closly resembles CABLE PAY FOR VEIW TV:( in that when choosing youre package you not only choose youre bandwidth but also you tier type ie gold silver bronze and this dicides what content you can access :( Basacly in the futeur it would be common place for youre ISP to charge you more if you want to download diffrent types of media i.e. video images or "online-game-access" <EVE if you fail to pay-per-use or are not on a premium teir access plan you will be classifeid as low priority and recive low bandwidth or no connection at all :( this WILL happpan as ISP's get nothing out of you playing online games for hours at a time ATM, but with a pay-per-houre plan this would change and you would have to pay just to login ontop of an internet connection fee line rental and eve-subscription :( Futher more this will effect CCP as it will be a two way thing were CCP will have to pay ISP's to make sure its data is sent and recieved :( increasing there running costs. This is for real, major internet and computer firms "Ebay, Google, Microsoft" are worried abut this issue bucause Giant TV, CABLE, TELICOM mega Corps want the internet for themselves :( for the last few years i often wondered what would win TV OR THE INTERNET, But it seems TV will KIL internet before the fight even starts :I links i found to more iformation "im not affilated to any" http://www.savetheinternet.com http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_neutrality
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.04 14:08:00 - [2] I don't see it catching on. Why? Any company that doesn't follow that payment plan would suddenly find themselves the most popular ISP in the country- no small incentive not to do it. It could only happen if every single ISP in the country decided to / was forced to do it at the same time. Makes me glad I live in the EU- not heard a peep about it down this end. -----------------------------------------------
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.04 14:13:00 - [3] Edited by: Rod Blaine on 04/12/2006 14:13:31 Hehe, I'm glad that in europe pay per view and other such corporate #%#$^#$%#@% has been a consistent failure since it crossed the pond :p Old blog
qui arthell	Posted - 2006.12.04 14:13:00 - [4] That is true, but alot of ISP's have monopoly's in certain areas, hence why some people are still forced to use 56k. Also, if all the ISP's banded together and agreed to do this (which is essentially what they are trying to do) they will all make more money, while they all keep their respective customer bases. This is a major issue that has been floating around for a good while now.
Major Stormer Caldari Red Storm Vendetta	Posted - 2006.12.04 14:14:00 - [5] As far as i know this "problem" was already sorted out. Its back again you mean? Red Storm Vendetta is now recruiting! Click me for more info
Zeonos Amarr venus divine brotherhood Dark Forces Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.04 14:17:00 - [6] in denmark a danish television station (DR) get some money every half year. for everyone there got a televesion. and now they want everyone with a 256kbs or more. to pay a license too. because we can see television online.. :( you are only allowed one image in your sig. Removed the second one that also broke size restrictions. Linkage - Hutch
D2O HeavyWater Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.12.04 14:18:00 - [7] Competition for ISP's is very fierce in the UK at minute so unless they all do which i think is extrmely unlikely I'll just keep swapping ISP's. I don't agree with that fair use quota either. Whenever thats imposed on me i switch ISP. On my 3rd ISP in 12 months.
DaRuLe Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.04 14:18:00 - [8] If a company, say Bell (dunno if they are an ISP, I'm not an American) introduces this new 'service'. I would leave 'em an go to another ISP. If they all introduce this,.. well, isn't it against the law for large corporations to band together? Anyways, since the US is a free country (it still is right? /sarcasm), I'll bet some human rights group will counter this initiative. __________________________________________________________________________
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.04 14:19:00 - [9] I've always thought the most important aspect of this was that I don't live in the US . A close second, however, is the fact that if all the ISPs do get together and pull this off, the higher they jack up the prices, the bigger the incentive for a new ISP to come along and offer 'open' access. ---------- IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.04 14:20:00 - [10] Originally by: DaRuLe If a company, say Bell (dunno if they are an ISP, I'm not an American) introduces this new 'service'. I would leave 'em an go to another ISP. If they all introduce this,.. well, isn't it against the law for large corporations to band together? Anyways, since the US is a free country (it still is right? /sarcasm), I'll bet some human rights group will counter this initiative. Hell, if they did all band together, heres what you do- buy a server and set up your own SP, make a fortune -----------------------------------------------
Lojack Girl	Posted - 2006.12.04 14:25:00 - [11] There arnt as many true ISP's as you think for instance there are only 3 TRUE ISP's in the UK that provide internet faster than 56K: BT Cable Saterlite Uplink <5% Cable is NTL"Virgin Comunications" and Cable. and DSL connections are all offered by BT ie tiscali or pipex just rent of BT and you pay them so anything BT does will effect all of the smaller broadband outlets
Agent Li Galactic Defence Consortium	Posted - 2006.12.04 14:26:00 - [12] Originally by: Rod Blaine Edited by: Rod Blaine on 04/12/2006 14:13:31 Hehe, I'm glad that in europe pay per view and other such corporate #%#$^#$%#@% has been a consistent failure since it crossed the pond :p I guess that explains the Sky Sport monopoly...
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.04 14:27:00 - [13] The moment things change to where I have to pay some insane rate to game online I will a) buy a build a gamers reserve on my propery, get a DS3, and then move all my gaming m8s and their families onto it and get the rents worked out to cover it or b) Start using Ham Radio packet transfer to play EVE. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
Lojack Girl	Posted - 2006.12.04 14:28:00 - [14] Originally by: Patch86 Originally by: DaRuLe If a company, say Bell (dunno if they are an ISP, I'm not an American) introduces this new 'service'. I would leave 'em an go to another ISP. If they all introduce this,.. well, isn't it against the law for large corporations to band together? Anyways, since the US is a free country (it still is right? /sarcasm), I'll bet some human rights group will counter this initiative. Hell, if they did all band together, heres what you do- buy a server and set up your own SP, make a fortune If youre in the uk, and you want to set up a ISP you will have to rent bandwidth of BT which will mean you will have to pay BT what they want :( the same goes with the USA and AT&T
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.04 14:30:00 - [15] Originally by: DaRuLe If a company, say Bell (dunno if they are an ISP, I'm not an American) introduces this new 'service'. I would leave 'em an go to another ISP. If they all introduce this,.. well, isn't it against the law for large corporations to band together? That's called collusion, and is a pain in the butt to prove. To be honest, the option of switching ISPs isn't an option for a lot of folks at all. Around here, you've got two real options for broadband: going through the cable company, or the regional telco for DSL. If both are in on it, this entire area is screwed. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2006.12.04 14:31:00 - [16] Originally by: D2O HeavyWater Competition for ISP's is very fierce in the UK at minute so unless they all do which i think is extrmely unlikely I'll just keep swapping ISP's. I don't agree with that fair use quota either. Whenever thats imposed on me i switch ISP. On my 3rd ISP in 12 months. The squeeze that UK ISPs are currently facing is a real issue. They pay a fixed amount per month but have to contend with their users tending to congregate around either office hours or evenings. Worse still the average bandwidth requirement per user is increasing. Most ISPs are balancing contention in the peak hours (risking customer wrath with slow or unreliable connections) with very low usage at other times (which means running at a loss for maybe 12 out of every 24 hours). Getting the balance right is increasingly difficult and I think that when LLU subscriptions reach the magical 1.5m and BT regain the freedom to price the cost of a central how they want we might see some very interesting times. There's also the big question (to my mind) of are the LLU operators currently offering realistic prices or are they (as I suspect) still in "loss leader" mode trying to attract fresh victims..er customers. Duck and cover! -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] Linux is only free if your time is worthless
SSgt Sniper Gallente In Excess Enterprises	Posted - 2006.12.04 14:33:00 - [17] Originally by: Kaylana Syi The moment things change to where I have to pay some insane rate to game online I will a) buy a build a gamers reserve on my propery, get a DS3, and then move all my gaming m8s and their families onto it and get the rents worked out to cover it or b) Start using Ham Radio packet transfer to play EVE. Show HAM radio some love! --------- Gallente need ONE ship with an ecm bonus option. JUST ONE.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2006.12.04 14:33:00 - [18] Originally by: Lojack Girl There arnt as many true ISP's as you think for instance there are only 3 TRUE ISP's in the UK that provide internet faster than 56K: BT Cable Saterlite Uplink <5% Cable is NTL"Virgin Comunications" and Cable. and DSL connections are all offered by BT ie tiscali or pipex just rent of BT and you pay them so anything BT does will effect all of the smaller broadband outlets Not true. Other operators like Be* and Pipex are gradually rolling out their own network. It's patchy, it's slow and personally I have grave doubts about it succeeding but it's growing. Time will tell whether or not they can compete with BT or are just blowing hot air. -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] Linux is only free if your time is worthless
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.04 14:33:00 - [19] Originally by: SSgt Sniper Originally by: Kaylana Syi The moment things change to where I have to pay some insane rate to game online I will a) buy a build a gamers reserve on my propery, get a DS3, and then move all my gaming m8s and their families onto it and get the rents worked out to cover it or b) Start using Ham Radio packet transfer to play EVE. Show HAM radio some love! I'll bounce packets off of every satallite I can reach baby! Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
JeanPierre	Posted - 2006.12.04 14:37:00 - [20] Originally by: Kaylana Syi Originally by: SSgt Sniper Originally by: Kaylana Syi The moment things change to where I have to pay some insane rate to game online I will a) buy a build a gamers reserve on my propery, get a DS3, and then move all my gaming m8s and their families onto it and get the rents worked out to cover it or b) Start using Ham Radio packet transfer to play EVE. Show HAM radio some love! I'll bounce packets off of every satallite I can reach baby! EVE on 80M. Having to wait for the weather to be "just so" to play a game. Could add a whole new element to gaming. LOL.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.04 14:38:00 - [21] Edited by: Patch86 on 04/12/2006 14:38:21 Originally by: Lojack Girl There arnt as many true ISP's as you think for instance there are only 3 TRUE ISP's in the UK that provide internet faster than 56K: BT Cable Saterlite Uplink <5% Cable is NTL"Virgin Comunications" and Cable. and DSL connections are all offered by BT ie tiscali or pipex just rent of BT and you pay them so anything BT does will effect all of the smaller broadband outlets Actually, BT Wholesale (as they are called) arn't the only company to own DSL Exchanges in the UK- UK Online, Easynet and Carphone Warehouse being notably independent from BT (the latter being the 3rd largest provider in the UK, after buying up AOL UK). The UK is a lot less monopolised on thses things than the US and similar, largely due to a very high population density- a company can reach a whole lot of customers with only a small amount of network infrastructure. One of the reasons the USA is so easy for a ISP to dominate is because everyone is so spread out it takes a considerable investment to reach a much smaller number of customers. Besides, monopoly laws are a lot stricter in the EU than in the US. EDIT: Alternatively, what Andrue said -----------------------------------------------
Merchantigus Minmatar Riot Zone	Posted - 2006.12.04 14:41:00 - [22] If big corpse/the gov decide they are going to do you, you are going to get done... i'll change isps to whoever i have to if/when they do this.
DaRuLe Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.04 14:44:00 - [23] Originally by: Patch86 Besides, monopoly laws are a lot stricter in the EU than in the US. EDIT: Alternatively, what Andrue said Obviously they are, I didn't realise that. Overhere the owner of the DSL-network has to allow other ISPs to operate on their network. __________________________________________________________________________
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.04 14:54:00 - [24] Originally by: DaRuLe Originally by: Patch86 Besides, monopoly laws are a lot stricter in the EU than in the US. EDIT: Alternatively, what Andrue said Obviously they are, I didn't realise that. Overhere the owner of the DSL-network has to allow other ISPs to operate on their network. When you say "overhere" do you mean US or EU? because if its US, I stand corrected- didn't know that. If its EU though, then yah, tis what I thought. -----------------------------------------------
Plague Black 4S Corporation	Posted - 2006.12.04 14:56:00 - [25] Internet is one of the best things that has happened to humanity since it's cradle times. It's up there with fire and steam power. Beats religion or politics by 12334972938 lenghts. If 'they' think they can control it they are up for a big suprise. They might want to control it, they might try to control it but they will never be able to. Oh and all those 'goode-2-shoes' companies... Google, MS and Ebay... if they could they would also love to control IT. Don't get fooled, they are all only after profit. /emote plays his Best of Rage Against The Machine CDs
mrevilbe arrrrrg corp	Posted - 2006.12.04 14:57:00 - [26] lol hate to disapoint you guys but alot of UK isp's already use this system of a tiered service you probably just don't realise it :P....plusnet does it in particular.. but it hasn't worked out well for them they lost hoards of customers because as they were put into the lower tiered bracket they saw standards drop and were unwilling ..or not confident enough to upgrade to a higher quality tier service,....the result is rumored to be that plusnet is to be bought by another isp
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2006.12.04 15:01:00 - [27] Edited by: Andrue on 04/12/2006 15:02:19 Edited by: Andrue on 04/12/2006 15:00:55 Originally by: DaRuLe Originally by: Patch86 Besides, monopoly laws are a lot stricter in the EU than in the US. EDIT: Alternatively, what Andrue said Obviously they are, I didn't realise that. Overhere the owner of the DSL-network has to allow other ISPs to operate on their network. Over here...it's very open. BT have been forced to cooperate and as of recent years seem happy to do so. This has some interesting information: http://www.cbronline.com/article_cbr.asp?guid=DF62BEC1-1F97-4503-88CB-3378493A330E The problem I have with LLU is that everyone (the companies doing it and the users (often the same users that say they can't use less than 100GB a month)) all claim they can offer a better service than BT and for lower cost. All this while rolling out new equipment in exchanges and for some of them new fibre across the country. Yes the UK is smaller than the US (I think the CIA factfile says we have about the same land area as Oregon) but it's still over 4,500 exchanges to wire up. I mean lets look at TalkTalk. Free broadband (ADSL2+ as well so up to 24Mb) for life (okay so it's part of the ú10 a month you pay for everything) but to do it they have to LLU your exchange at an estimated cost (so I've heard) of between ú100,000 and ú300,000. You tell me how that adds up? -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] Linux is only free if your time is worthless
DaRuLe Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.04 15:02:00 - [28] Originally by: Patch86 Originally by: DaRuLe Originally by: Patch86 Besides, monopoly laws are a lot stricter in the EU than in the US. EDIT: Alternatively, what Andrue said Obviously they are, I didn't realise that. Overhere the owner of the DSL-network has to allow other ISPs to operate on their network. When you say "overhere" do you mean US or EU? because if its US, I stand corrected- didn't know that. If its EU though, then yah, tis what I thought. I meant EU __________________________________________________________________________
EndersGame Amarr Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.04 15:04:00 - [29] I dont ever forsee ISP's charging extra to play online games. ISP's want you to play online games.. they love you playing online games.. because online games use very little bandwidth compared to what you would normally be doing.. IE downloading ****.. or watching movies.. or downloading games.. or streaming a radio station etc... Users that play online games tend to be very anal about there bandwidth while they are playing there games. And if what cyvok says is true.. we are all people in basements living in our mothers house... so yeah...
Polinus	Posted - 2006.12.04 15:06:00 - [30] Originally by: qui arthell That is true, but alot of ISP's have monopoly's in certain areas, hence why some people are still forced to use 56k. Also, if all the ISP's banded together and agreed to do this (which is essentially what they are trying to do) they will all make more money, while they all keep their respective customer bases. This is a major issue that has been floating around for a good while now. glad i live in a country where there is asuperior government agency to classify that as a cartel and punish it severily (last time it hapwened was close to a billion bucks on retribution)
The Snowman Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2006.12.04 15:08:00 - [31] As I have breached the fair user policy of my ISP - Tiscali, they no longer alow me to play Eve (any many other games) during the hours of 6-11pm. so providers already have the means to pick and chose what you can and cant access. Even in Europe. Also, in Korea and china etc, there is already a law in place preventing users from playing MMO's for longer than 3 hours before having a 1 hour break. It would be very easy for this kind of scheme to be implemented. <------------> Poker RPG 60 jumps 'Flop' by..
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2006.12.04 15:13:00 - [32] Originally by: The Snowman As I have breached the fair user policy of my ISP - Tiscali, they no longer alow me to play Eve (any many other games) during the hours of 6-11pm. That's harsh - you need to change your ISP. MMORPGs aren't usually that hard to cater for. Eve should be even easier due to it's low bandwidth and relative tolerance for latency. -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] Linux is only free if your time is worthless
Lojack Girl	Posted - 2006.12.04 15:16:00 - [33] tiscali did the same to me so i sent them this leeter and they let me back on :) hope you can use it as its a laugh :P : put this in sugject: FUP WARNING Email too: [email protected] I write to inform you that i have sorted out the problem with my Internet and no longer should be on the FUP! The first FUP warning i received occurred less than 12 hours after i first connected to the Internet this was due to the fact that my computer had been off line for 3 months and it had to download lots of viruses definitions and patches that i could not stop as they where automated the other two FUP warnings where received within 24 hours so i could not act on them before i got disconnected :(, these were caused on by a game called GIULDWARS that i played i did not know at the time but it downloads the game as you play it and as i only had the bare bones client it needed to download more than 9 GB of data something i didn't know till i started looking at my problem a few days ago! Other possible causes highlighted on forums were the use of YouTube and other video streaming sites, something that wasn't mentioned on your site or emails. obviously i have stopped using this site now that i know it use up bandwidth something i didn't know and you failed to warn me about in the FUP email, other problems highlighted in forums where unsecured wireless routers. This turned out to be the major contributer in my case as according to my router there were 3 people connected to it but as far as i knew, i was the only one in the house using it. i have now password protected the router so that only i can use it and no one can steal my Internet, another thing you did not mention on your site or in your emails. According to your site P2P programs are what get you disconnected, i don't use them as all my downloads are legal from ?direct 2 drive?so I didn't think it effected me. And i did not know at the time that legal downloads got you disconnected too, as your site was unclear. I now know this and WILL NOT download them during PEAK TIMES! Basically i have now reduced the amount i download, it was previously high as it was unclear to me and your site/emails what causes high bandwidth! I have since fixed problems that caused it and have altered my behavior so that it is reduced. I hope that this is sufficient to have me removed from the FUP program as currently i am unable to use the net between 6 and 11 pm and if i am unable to resume normal Internet use i will be forced to cancel this connection as i am not able to play on-line games that i pay a subscription for. This means i am paying money for something i cant use! Thank you.
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.04 15:17:00 - [34] Originally by: The Snowman As I have breached the fair user policy of my ISP - Tiscali, they no longer alow me to play Eve (any many other games) during the hours of 6-11pm. Hi? What? What did you do to get this treatment? ---------- IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win
Zin Rathbone	Posted - 2006.12.04 15:18:00 - [35] Edited by: Zin Rathbone on 04/12/2006 15:22:49 Never going to happen. I work for a telcom compnay in RL. There is intense competition for broadband customers, at least here in the U.S. It would be economic suicide for a provider to try this, if it is possible at all. Bandwidth is bandwidth, you get so much, do what you want with it. As for your tv vs. the internet thing, companies offer both. Cable companies agressivly market broadband and voice services along with TV programing, and traditional voice/telcom companies are starting to offer TV programing as well through fiber optic networks. TV and the internet are increasing coming into your home over the same wire.
Trespasser Caldari e X i l e	Posted - 2006.12.04 15:21:00 - [36] well last i heard about this was alot of majoy companys were suing to stop this... and tbh i dont see this happening anytime soon because it would drive america out of business. Almost everyone uses the internet so unless everyone in the US Goverement wants the US To die and go bank rupt yeah this will go threw other wize i dont see it happening My name is Trespasser and I approved this Message!
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.04 15:21:00 - [37] Originally by: Lojack Girl tiscali did the same to me so i sent them this leeter and they let me back on :) hope you can use it as its a laugh :P : put this in sugject: FUP WARNING Email too: [email protected] <stuff> Wow. I thought it was Ireland that was supposed to have bad ISPs? I can hammer the connection, direct downloading as fast as the connection goes, or using P2P programs running as many open connections as the router can handle, downloading several times the monthly bandwidth 'limit', and the ISP does not seem to care...? I feel all lucky and stuff now ---------- IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.04 15:23:00 - [38] Originally by: The Snowman As I have breached the fair user policy of my ISP - Tiscali, they no longer alow me to play Eve (any many other games) during the hours of 6-11pm. Thats harsh. time to switch ISPs?! -----------------------------------------------
Makree Ubar Asteroid Hugging Collective	Posted - 2006.12.04 15:24:00 - [39] See that lump in your trousers, no, not that little one. The one you keep your money in. That's right, it called your wallet. Unless you are married, it is you that determines where the contents of this wallet goes. And if you choose to give your money to an ISP that practices net nutrality(sic) then you get what you deserve. Instead find an ISP that gives you what you want and give them your money. Then they get bigger and the big, bad evil ISPs go bust.
Brady	Posted - 2006.12.04 15:24:00 - [40] But didn't this neutrality thing kick off because telecoms companies in the US kicked off that they have to treat certain lines with priority because they are broadband data lines, and this costs the companies alot more? They asked the regulator why they have to absorb this extra cost, and why they should prioritise lines. The regulators then went to the government to ask for permission to charge consumers for this prioritisation, thus if you want it you pay for it. This applies to the nature of the content aswell as the nature of the lines. This may not be 100% correct but getting a dodgy memory from age.
Lisento Slaven Amarr The Drekla Consortium Kurai Komichi	Posted - 2006.12.04 15:28:00 - [41] Aren't there ISP's that have bandwidth caps to prevent you from "getting more than what you pay for"? I have had friends I play games with tell me they can't play for fear of using up the rest of their bandwidth allocated to them for the month/week/day etc. Or aren't there ISP's that limit your transfer speeds to a certain amount, and if you want better speed you have to upgrade your package? This just sounds like a data cap on your internet connection. When you hit the cap your internet gets turned off (because you didn't pay for more than that). Right? --- Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE. Put in space whales!
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Worms Corp	Posted - 2006.12.04 15:34:00 - [42] Originally by: Lojack Girl There arnt as many true ISP's as you think for instance there are only 3 TRUE ISP's in the UK that provide internet faster than 56K: BT Cable Saterlite Uplink <5% Cable is NTL"Virgin Comunications" and Cable. and DSL connections are all offered by BT ie tiscali or pipex just rent of BT and you pay them so anything BT does will effect all of the smaller broadband outlets the US isnt much different when it comes to broadband. you have oddball choices like Speakeasy DSL but in general you have Cable(you cant choose your cableco at all its hardlocked per region in a lame franchise system), Telco DSL(or Fiber if blessed by Verizon) again you cant choose your telco. and to the person who said Bell not knowing much about US setups, you arent too far off because AT&T is reforming into its former scale.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.04 15:34:00 - [43] Originally by: Lisento Slaven Aren't there ISP's that have bandwidth caps to prevent you from "getting more than what you pay for"? I have had friends I play games with tell me they can't play for fear of using up the rest of their bandwidth allocated to them for the month/week/day etc. Or aren't there ISP's that limit your transfer speeds to a certain amount, and if you want better speed you have to upgrade your package? This just sounds like a data cap on your internet connection. When you hit the cap your internet gets turned off (because you didn't pay for more than that). Right? You're probably referring to Download Limits, which have largely faded out (in the UK) to be replaced by Fair Usage Aggreements. They meant that as soon as you had downloaded a certain quota of data a month, you got cut off- most lame. However, it was generally in the GB range, so low bandidth games like EVE would affect it not-a-jot. -----------------------------------------------
The Snowman Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2006.12.04 15:35:00 - [44] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: The Snowman As I have breached the fair user policy of my ISP - Tiscali, they no longer alow me to play Eve (any many other games) during the hours of 6-11pm. Hi? What? What did you do to get this treatment? hi, I excesivly downloaded during the peak hours of 6-11pm. I think it was when I downloaded about 500mb file, which, at one point was the eve client itself. another time it was the Guildwars client.. Other times where when I was downloading from newsgroups. I had 3 warnings before they did it too me. The odd thing is that any and all web access is still fine, I can 'you-tube' all night with no problems.. but anything that connects outside of a web browser you just cant connect at all. And yes, it is time to change my ISP, but that means being tied down to another 12 month contract, which in my current circumstances isnt a good idea. <------------> Poker RPG 60 jumps 'Flop' by..
Jason Marshall Infinite Innovations Astral Wolves	Posted - 2006.12.04 15:44:00 - [45] Originally by: qui arthell That is true, but alot of ISP's have monopoly's in certain areas, hence why some people are still forced to use 56k. Also, if all the ISP's banded together and agreed to do this (which is essentially what they are trying to do) they will all make more money, while they all keep their respective customer bases. This is a major issue that has been floating around for a good while now. Havent read through everything so im not sure if this has been said. But there are "Conflict of interest" lows that prevent this kind of things. COrperations cant come together and agree to not out do eachother, it would take the free out of free market essentially. Tacky lens flares in sigs 4tw!
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.04 15:50:00 - [46] Originally by: Patch86 Originally by: Lisento Slaven Aren't there ISP's that have bandwidth caps to prevent you from "getting more than what you pay for"? I have had friends I play games with tell me they can't play for fear of using up the rest of their bandwidth allocated to them for the month/week/day etc. Or aren't there ISP's that limit your transfer speeds to a certain amount, and if you want better speed you have to upgrade your package? This just sounds like a data cap on your internet connection. When you hit the cap your internet gets turned off (because you didn't pay for more than that). Right? You're probably referring to Download Limits, which have largely faded out (in the UK) to be replaced by Fair Usage Aggreements. They meant that as soon as you had downloaded a certain quota of data a month, you got cut off- most lame. However, it was generally in the GB range, so low bandidth games like EVE would affect it not-a-jot. Sounds like I'd rather stick to download limits (which are still the standard in Ireland for the most part). My limit is 30GB a month, but I usually download at least twice that. However, even before I tested the waters beyond the 'limit', 30GB is a fair enough amount, and is a hard line. The FUAs sound like they read 'you can use the connection as much as you want up to a fair limit; fair being defined soley by us at a time of our choosing'. ---------- IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win
Taedrin Gallente Mercatoris Technologies	Posted - 2006.12.04 15:56:00 - [47] If net neutrality stopped being enforced by law, I think I would buy a couple WI-MAX towers, and hook them up to an OC192 connection and host my own net neutral ISP...
Polinus	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:00:00 - [48] Originally by: The Snowman Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: The Snowman As I have breached the fair user policy of my ISP - Tiscali, they no longer alow me to play Eve (any many other games) during the hours of 6-11pm. Hi? What? What did you do to get this treatment? hi, I excesivly downloaded during the peak hours of 6-11pm. I think it was when I downloaded about 500mb file, which, at one point was the eve client itself. another time it was the Guildwars client.. Other times where when I was downloading from newsgroups. I had 3 warnings before they did it too me. The odd thing is that any and all web access is still fine, I can 'you-tube' all night with no problems.. but anything that connects outside of a web browser you just cant connect at all. And yes, it is time to change my ISP, but that means being tied down to another 12 month contract, which in my current circumstances isnt a good idea. lol that is ridiculowsly stupiud. I live in a 3rd world country and I can stay 24/7 downloading at full speed for a year and they can't and won't do anything against me. Ipayed for acces for the month so its unlimited. And if the speed simply drops under the max hired speed for too many hours I simply complain and they adjust or givme reinbursment in money. Love to be in an advanced country :)
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:02:00 - [49] Edited by: Plutoinum on 04/12/2006 16:08:13 Edited by: Plutoinum on 04/12/2006 16:05:18 Originally by: Rod Blaine Edited by: Rod Blaine on 04/12/2006 14:13:31 Hehe, I'm glad that in europe pay per view and other such corporate #%#$^#$%#@% has been a consistent failure since it crossed the pond :p Let's hope it stays this way. In germany the german telekom agressively builts-up adsl2+ and vdsl in many cities for tv over internet. Got a 16mbit dsl connection myself now, but I'm not interested at all to watch TV over it. I just want the flatrate for gaming and stuff. Well, their goal will surely be to get as much money as they can out for their bandwith. Honestely I even wonder, if they got the routers etc. for TV over internet. If they promote video on demand, I believe they'll kill the network for gaming. Then multi-casting can't work anymore and I doubt that their hardware is ready to supply each household with their own or even multiple independant high-bandwith media streams. I'm really afraid of that. CTD/con-loss vs. log-out. A proposal for a fix.
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:03:00 - [50] Originally by: The Snowman Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: The Snowman As I have breached the fair user policy of my ISP - Tiscali, they no longer alow me to play Eve (any many other games) during the hours of 6-11pm. Hi? What? What did you do to get this treatment? hi, I excesivly downloaded during the peak hours of 6-11pm. I think it was when I downloaded about 500mb file, which, at one point was the eve client itself. another time it was the Guildwars client.. Other times where when I was downloading from newsgroups. That is by no definition excessive use. That's par for the course on broadband. If they can't offer a proper service they should just not try tbh. This should be the other way around. Instead of them going after you because you are overusing your connection, you should be going after them for giving you hassle over using your connection in a completely reasonable manner. If they really need to take measures like this they obviously can't provide a decent level of service, which is what you are paying for. (Unless these people are some kind of ultra-budget ISP who charge next to nothing for low capacity connections...?) ---------- IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win
Lojack Girl	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:05:00 - [51] Originally by: Lisento Slaven Aren't there ISP's that have bandwidth caps to prevent you from "getting more than what you pay for"? I have had friends I play games with tell me they can't play for fear of using up the rest of their bandwidth allocated to them for the month/week/day etc. Or aren't there ISP's that limit your transfer speeds to a certain amount, and if you want better speed you have to upgrade your package? This just sounds like a data cap on your internet connection. When you hit the cap your internet gets turned off (because you didn't pay for more than that). Right? this is not the case a fair usage limit is used to disconect you when you are on a unlimited or open access conniction like i was "tiscali unlimited" what this means is a unlimited conection is unlimeted unless you trie to use it and reach a limit at which piont they discounect you for being a heivy user on an unlimeted conection which you HAVE paid for:(
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:16:00 - [52] Originally by: Lojack Girl Originally by: Lisento Slaven Aren't there ISP's that have bandwidth caps to prevent you from "getting more than what you pay for"? I have had friends I play games with tell me they can't play for fear of using up the rest of their bandwidth allocated to them for the month/week/day etc. Or aren't there ISP's that limit your transfer speeds to a certain amount, and if you want better speed you have to upgrade your package? This just sounds like a data cap on your internet connection. When you hit the cap your internet gets turned off (because you didn't pay for more than that). Right? this is not the case a fair usage limit is used to disconect you when you are on a unlimited or open access conniction like i was "tiscali unlimited" what this means is a unlimited conection is unlimeted unless you trie to use it and reach a limit at which piont they discounect you for being a heivy user on an unlimeted conection which you HAVE paid for:( Never buy anything which is 'unlimited' if it must physically have some limit. They are, by definition, lying, and thus will screw you at some point. 'Unlimited'+'Fair Use'=LOL Run Away LOL /me has bad memories of a web host offering 'unlimited' space and bandwidth. ---------- IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:16:00 - [53] What the OP is referring to is not a financial decision, but a political one in the USA. The issue at hand is not only the money ISP would make, the big proponent of Pay/per Pocket type was AT&T and Verizon, but also the implication of free speech and equal access to information. The republicans were pushing for this for a very long time, and not only due to the fact that they will receive large compensation from the lobbies of the mentioned companies, but also because - the penny drops - the more popular and free-speaking Blogs and Website will be effectively shut down by this change. In other words, the independent, non-mainstream Internet media and publications will be effectively curtailed in their ability to present different points of view. Only the ones who have allot of capital or special contracts with the ISP will be able to present the information to the public. So, it has to do with he freedom of information and free speech. Democrats, and some more sane Republicans have shut down the proposal about 7 months or so ago. It is still being worked and reworked by the majority of the Republican Party. In other words, if this ever goes through it will be akin to Censorship, playing EVE and other online MMOs will be the least of our problems. (As an Afterthought: this thread ought to be in OP Experience.)
Plymer Ization ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:17:00 - [54] Originally by: The Snowman Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: The Snowman As I have breached the fair user policy of my ISP - Tiscali, they no longer alow me to play Eve (any many other games) during the hours of 6-11pm. Hi? What? What did you do to get this treatment? hi, I excesivly downloaded during the peak hours of 6-11pm. I think it was when I downloaded about 500mb file, which, at one point was the eve client itself. another time it was the Guildwars client.. Other times where when I was downloading from newsgroups. I had 3 warnings before they did it too me. The odd thing is that any and all web access is still fine, I can 'you-tube' all night with no problems.. but anything that connects outside of a web browser you just cant connect at all. And yes, it is time to change my ISP, but that means being tied down to another 12 month contract, which in my current circumstances isnt a good idea. That's rediculous. I'm glad I live in Canada. My current ISP is Cogeco Cable, and my previous DSL provider was a local company, Jet2Net. I never had a download cap on my ADSL, I had excellent speeds, upgrades for free, excellent tech support, and the only reason I switched providers was when I moved to an area where the cable was available. Where I live, I can choose to pay $45/month for 10Mb cable or $45/month 4.5Mb ADSL, both with no download caps, speed caps, or Fair-Use policies. No limits on P2P programs, etc on either ISP. There are a few ISPs to choose from in my region; Cogeco (Cable), Bell Sympatico (ADSL), Jet2Net (ADSL), AOL Canada (lawlernet), Rogers (Cable), and numerous wireless satellite companies - and I'm in a fairly rural area. I really feel for those people who have to deal with being shafted by lack of competition and bureaucracies dictating the freedom of the internet. <3 Canada.
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:18:00 - [55] Originally by: Plymer Ization Originally by: The Snowman Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: The Snowman As I have breached the fair user policy of my ISP - Tiscali, they no longer alow me to play Eve (any many other games) during the hours of 6-11pm. Hi? What? What did you do to get this treatment? hi, I excesivly downloaded during the peak hours of 6-11pm. I think it was when I downloaded about 500mb file, which, at one point was the eve client itself. another time it was the Guildwars client.. Other times where when I was downloading from newsgroups. I had 3 warnings before they did it too me. The odd thing is that any and all web access is still fine, I can 'you-tube' all night with no problems.. but anything that connects outside of a web browser you just cant connect at all. And yes, it is time to change my ISP, but that means being tied down to another 12 month contract, which in my current circumstances isnt a good idea. That's rediculous. I'm glad I live in Canada. My current ISP is Cogeco Cable, and my previous DSL provider was a local company, Jet2Net. I never had a download cap on my ADSL, I had excellent speeds, upgrades for free, excellent tech support, and the only reason I switched providers was when I moved to an area where the cable was available. Where I live, I can choose to pay $45/month for 10Mb cable or $45/month 4.5Mb ADSL, both with no download caps, speed caps, or Fair-Use policies. No limits on P2P programs, etc on either ISP. There are a few ISPs to choose from in my region; Cogeco (Cable), Bell Sympatico (ADSL), Jet2Net (ADSL), AOL Canada (lawlernet), Rogers (Cable), and numerous wireless satellite companies - and I'm in a fairly rural area. I really feel for those people who have to deal with being shafted by lack of competition and bureaucracies dictating the freedom of the internet. <3 Canada. I heard Canada had great Internet access. Guess it was true. ---------- IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:21:00 - [56] Edited by: Plutoinum on 04/12/2006 16:22:21 Originally by: Lojack Girl this is not the case a fair usage limit is used to disconect you when you are on a unlimited or open access conniction like i was "tiscali unlimited" what this means is a unlimited conection is unlimeted unless you trie to use it and reach a limit at which piont they discounect you for being a heivy user on an unlimeted conection which you HAVE paid for:( I hope that I haven't signed some rubbish like that, too. I've a contract over one year for unlimited download with 16mbit, like I said. Theoretically, if I was connected to highspeed servers 24/7 and had the hard drives, I could download almost 5 terabytes each month. Usually I stay between a 1-5 GByte I guess. So less than 0.1 percent of the theoretical limit. Would be a joke, if I get a mail once I download some more. lol. I pay 60 bucks to not have to think about how much I download and to use it like I want. CTD/con-loss vs. log-out. A proposal for a fix.
Iyanah Minmatar Mining Munitions and Mayhem	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:24:00 - [57] Originally by: Major Stormer As far as i know this "problem" was already sorted out. Its back again you mean? indeed, this is a throw back to the old dial-up "paying for calls" to connect to the internet. a practaice that went out back in the dark ages, when communication still took place by use of horse mounted courier... or sometime around then. ========================================== Iy
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:36:00 - [58] Edited by: Jinx Barker on 04/12/2006 16:38:37 For those who want to know what the OP is refering to: http://www.democraticmedia.org/issues/JCnetneutrality.html And this: http://www.democraticmedia.org/getinvolved/NetNeutralityAction.html
Vic Anvil	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:37:00 - [59] You guys have a misunderstanding of the Net Neutrality movement. The way it was going to work is ISPs limit the bandwidth of companies like CCP to their system. Then, if CCP wanted to have more bandwith access to that ISPs customers, they would have to pay the ISP. Basically, the ISP customers would not have to pay more for their access, but would ultimately have to pay CCP more to play the game as a result. By the way, the whole concept is dead. It died about a year ago here in the US.
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:40:00 - [60] Originally by: Vic Anvil You guys have a misunderstanding of the Net Neutrality movement. The way it was going to work is ISPs limit the bandwidth of companies like CCP to their system. Then, if CCP wanted to have more bandwith access to that ISPs customers, they would have to pay the ISP. Basically, the ISP customers would not have to pay more for their access, but would ultimately have to pay CCP more to play the game as a result. By the way, the whole concept is dead. It died about a year ago here in the US. As I said, about 7 months ago it was killed. But, they are still pushing for it... The Comcast/ATT/Verizon are still at it and the bill is being "reworked." With Dems in charge of the house and congress it will not happen any time soon, but I bet you my entire wallet, that this guys wont give up. Plus they have somehelp from that big house, you know, the one with snipers on the rooftops - because it would be a perfect form of censorship.
Insidi Us Amarr The Imperial Commonwealth	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:45:00 - [61] Here's more info, more media-centric: http://www.projectcensored.org/censored_2007/index.htm#1 -----------
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:52:00 - [62] Originally by: Zin Rathbone Edited by: Zin Rathbone on 04/12/2006 15:22:49 Never going to happen. I work for a telcom compnay in RL. There is intense competition for broadband customers, at least here in the U.S. It would be economic suicide for a provider to try this, if it is possible at all. Bandwidth is bandwidth, you get so much, do what you want with it. It depends how the bandwidth provider is charging for it. Most providers have to charge a fixed amount per month. The problem is that demand varies throughout the day. If an ISP sets things up so that at peak times everyone "just fits" then off peak they will by definition be losing money. That would mean losing money for 18 out of every 24 hours and that isn't sustainable. ISPs therefore have to push the limits during peak times and squeeze more people in than the pipe can handle (at least in raw terms). Luckily most users don't actually need their full speed all the time so you can squeeze more people in than the pipe can actually handle. A 100Mb pipe can service probably 100 people each with a 100Mb connection..as long as they are just browsing or generally diddling around. This is because they are probably on average only using 1Mb and at random intervals. This allows the ISP to share the cost of the pipe between 100 users. But now if one of those users kicks off a download from a fast site they immediately cause a problem because in this scenario they are asking for all the pipe's bandwidth and there is none left for anyone else. If the ISP buys enough capacity for 100 users to use all their connection they have to charge 100 times as much (in this case) and worst still at 3am only one block is on and 99% of the pipe is going idle. Given the fixed monthly charge to the ISP is suicidal. This isn't a new problem. Most services have it. It's why you have to book in advanced for things like restaurants and garages. It's also why you can often get a cheaper meal out of peak hours. -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] Linux is only free if your time is worthless
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:56:00 - [63] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: The Snowman hi, I excesivly downloaded during the peak hours of 6-11pm. I think it was when I downloaded about 500mb file, which, at one point was the eve client itself. another time it was the Guildwars client.. Other times where when I was downloading from newsgroups. That is by no definition excessive use. That's par for the course on broadband. If they can't offer a proper service they should just not try tbh. That's very debateable. It is certainly unusual. 75% of users use less than 5GB a month. This is why everyone that ever saw a FUP from an ISP will see reference to "a small minority of users". It's also why ISPs traditionally run with contention ratios of 50:1 (meaning 50 times as many users as there is bandwidth). The trouble is that net habits are changing and that contention ratio is beginning to look wobbly. Trouble is the only solution is to reduce it and that means raising the price. If you want guaranteed throughput for everyone it means making BB 50 times more expensive. -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] Linux is only free if your time is worthless
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2006.12.04 17:02:00 - [64] Originally by: Plymer Ization Where I live, I can choose to pay $45/month for 10Mb cable or $45/month 4.5Mb ADSL, both with no download caps, speed caps, or Fair-Use policies. No limits on P2P programs, etc on either ISP. There are a few ISPs to choose from in my region; Cogeco (Cable), Bell Sympatico (ADSL), Jet2Net (ADSL), AOL Canada (lawlernet), Rogers (Cable), and numerous wireless satellite companies - and I'm in a fairly rural area. I really feel for those people who have to deal with being shafted by lack of competition and bureaucracies dictating the freedom of the internet. <3 Canada. In the UK you can get ADSL Max (which is up to 8Mb depending on line length) for ú15 (33 CA$) from BT. Some of the LLU operators are offering up to 24Mb for ú9.99 including telephone line rental. -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] Linux is only free if your time is worthless
Kat Jupiter Warspite Developments	Posted - 2006.12.04 17:07:00 - [65] Originally by: Agent Li Originally by: Rod Blaine Edited by: Rod Blaine on 04/12/2006 14:13:31 Hehe, I'm glad that in europe pay per view and other such corporate #%#$^#$%#@% has been a consistent failure since it crossed the pond :p I guess that explains the Sky Sport monopoly... No that explains why PPL watch football in pubs and have bent cable boxes, not that i have or anything PPL in this country dont pay for that sh.. If ppl in yours do, well more fool you
Novarei Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.04 17:20:00 - [66] the internet is a series of tubes silly, this is a good change, because all of the trucks will have it easier. ------------- nupo
Galk Gallente Autumn Tactics All the things she said	Posted - 2006.12.04 17:26:00 - [67] Same thing, kinda harking on 8 or 9 years ago here in the uk. Pay for your usage.. aka your call costs, kept the scene clear of the young ones that couldn't afford it.. this was generaly a good thing for obvious reasons. Brings it all back... remember the 6 o'clock rush Ohh yeah, i remember racking up 300 quid a month phone bills just playing quake on evenings and weekends ______

Karl Chroimcer Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2006.12.04 17:27:00 - [68] Moved from General Discussion. forum rules \| [email protected]


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