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Covert Kitty
SRS Industries SRS.
57
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 18:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP has said that they feel that FtP / microtransactions, as opposed to the traditional subscription model is a growing trend, and at minimum they want to have a system in place in case "customers demand it". Well.. they are right, it is growing, or at least was. However, this is because the vast majority (if not all) top tier mmo's that use such a system have just been wow clones, clones that do the wow model slightly differently, but always more poorly than wow itself. So of course, just doing the same thing over again, more poorly than the last time, will find it hard to attract subscriptions. Other games, such as farmville and it's ilk, are just simply not good games, they couldn't make money under any other system. There are also some people that feel they cannot afford a subscription.
The natural progression of this line of thinking is "How do we integrate the two systems, so that we can attract more customers that are used to a FtP model". I would argue that this line of thinking is a fallacy. You do not fundamentally attract customers by diversifying your payment options, you attract them by making a good game. In addition, EvE is a niche game, the people who play it are attracted to that niche. Your goal is not to change EvE in such a way as to make it more palatable to your typical WoW player, but rather to invite them to join our niche on our terms, because eve offers that fundamentally different experience.
"EvE is forever", It's a good mantra, and it's the best way to think about your business. EvE is your business, your not going to make EvE2, your going to continue to expand on, redo, and maintain EvE. On that road you will have to take radical steps that shake people up, one day you may have to take a hard look at the skill system for example. However don't sacrifice short term gains for long term growth and stability.
The NeX is fundamentally gamplay displacing, and thus a drain on the overall game value of EvE, nobody is out there saying "Hey come play EvE because you can buy shoes for your avatar without playing the game". So, as you've said in the past "HTF", admit that it was a bad choice, and just get rid of it. Perhaps have the NeX items be distributed via semi-rare drops from faction bs's, commanders, plex's, etc. Ship skins are a good idea, but should expand on the manufacturing gameplay, not pop into existence via the NeX. All in game items, with the exception of plex should be derived from player actions in game.
Know what EvE is, attract EvE players, don't suffer from multiple personality disorder. MMO's as a whole are a dime a dozen these days, being niche is a GOOD THING :)
Keep focusing on what EvE is good at. |

Aiwha
101st Space Marine Force Nulli Secunda
24
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 18:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
But I like my shoes. Regards,
LCpl. Aiwha |

Meryl SinGarda
Belligerent Underpayed Tactical Team
268
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 18:40:00 -
[3] - Quote
You whined and moaned and got the expansion you wanted, now leave the actual new stuff alone.
Fly Safe, Die Hard As stated by a fellow player, Mara Rinn, "EVE is not an internet spaceships game. It's a game of politics, subterfuge, capitalism, empire building and trust."-á
|

Florestan Bronstein
United Highsec Front The 99 Percent
201
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 18:41:00 -
[4] - Quote
At best you made a case for not expanding the NeX.
I missed the part where you justified the costs of removing it.
You try to argue that the mere presence of the NeX makes people quit the game by saying that it won't attract new players? "The NeX is fundamentally gamplay displacing, and thus a drain on the overall game value of EvE, nobody is out there saying "Hey come play EvE because you can buy shoes for your avatar without playing the game"" that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. |

Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
942
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 18:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
Florestan Bronstein wrote:At best you made a case for not expanding the NeX.
I missed the part where you justified the costs of removing it.
You try to argue that the mere presence of the NeX makes people quit the game by saying that it won't attract new players? "The NeX is fundamentally gamplay displacing, and thus a drain on the overall game value of EvE, nobody is out there saying "Hey come play EvE because you can buy shoes for your avatar without playing the game"" that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
What "costs" would those be?
A couple of days programming time to reallocate the NeX store clothes to the character designer / placed in loyalty point stores ...
Or are you claiming there is still a positive income-from-NeX against lost subscriptions-due-to-NeX ?
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom. Jericho Fraction is Recruiting! |

Florestan Bronstein
United Highsec Front The 99 Percent
201
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 18:49:00 -
[6] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote: What "costs" would those be?
A couple of days programming time to reallocate the NeX store clothes to the character designer / placed in loyalty point stores ...
thanks for answering your own question.
|

Jack Traynor
One More Corp
6
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 18:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
And if CCP compared the list of credit devices & accounts subscribed against those of the failquitters, wanna bet what that delta would yield?
I'd just about guarantee those failquitters really WERE fail-quitters, as in they still play.
CCP makes money on the NeX crap, and it's not going anywhere. They will find new ways to make real money, and will exploit it. It's the way the business model works. |

Ottersmacker
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
5
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 18:54:00 -
[8] - Quote
Why not let CCP have income from those willing to spend on NeX as long as it stays vanity and actual game development isn't hindered?
I have never bought an item from NeX, because they have yet to hit the sweet spot for my space vanity fantasies. I suppose a Jack-O'-Lantern-paintjob Brutix might do the trick.. The Order of the Falcon or Hin +¡slenska f+ílkaor+¦a is a national Order of Iceland |

Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
942
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 18:58:00 -
[9] - Quote
Jack Traynor wrote:And if CCP compared the list of credit devices & accounts subscribed against those of the failquitters, wanna bet what that delta would yield?
I'd just about guarantee those failquitters really WERE fail-quitters, as in they still play.
CCP makes money on the NeX crap, and it's not going anywhere. They will find new ways to make real money, and will exploit it. It's the way the business model works.
So you don't believe that a large number of eve players unsubbed over the NeXCarna fiasco then?
And you believe that CCP do actually make money on NeX taking into consideration accounts dropped citing NeX MT in a subscription game as a reason?
Hmmm,
Let me tell you about business "models".
Business models that work involve selling something to a customer base that the customers in question want. Prior to NeXCarna we had some exhaustive crowd-sourced polls that showed quite convincingly that the Eve player base did not want MTbased content behind $ payalls in this subscription based MMO.
The "industry experts" (at that time) refused to listen.
The unsub crisis was the result.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom. Jericho Fraction is Recruiting! |

Solstice Project
Cult of Personality
268
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 19:00:00 -
[10] - Quote
I really liked reading your post, but i don't see any reason why the NeX store should go away.
It's there. The only reason it has impact on you is simply because you have a problem with it.
It does not have any effect on me, for example, as i simply don't give a **** about it.
NeX is not a symbol of "change", it simply is a store that allows players to pump money into CCP and getting useless items that contain "bragging rights".
Removing the NeX would not change a single thing, simply because removing it does not remove the underlying idea.
It's actually good that CCP looks for a way to increase their revenue, because more money means growth. Growth means, more developers will get hired, which also means that more people will work on EvE/SpaceShips. We "all" made sure this will happen.
I'm not trying to argue against you, i merely don't see your point when you say you want it removed.
I agree, that items with "bragging rights" are nothing that will make people join EvE. What would have made that happened, was Incarna, as we can see from all those people who want to see it happen. Including "Ambulation", of course.
It doesn't matter if these people don't fly in space. If they want to run around in Avatars, so be it, as long as they don't disturb what's going on outside of stations. That said, if they have positive influence on the game, offering a greater variety of things to happen, then i'm all for it !
I, myself, couldn't care less about walking around with my Avatar, as i simply do not play these kind of games. I never have. (talking about MMORPGs here, of course)
On the other hand, i would have loved to play that game they showed on fanfest.
Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |

Solstice Project
Cult of Personality
268
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 19:02:00 -
[11] - Quote
Jade ... Nex never was implemented for the core player base that flies in space, it was implemented for the other kind of players, that like to run around in Avatars.
These people like to pay money for useless stuff that's just there to "show off".
I don't see any issues with that, as it doesn't have any impact on EvE/SpaceShips.
Again ... we made quite sure this won't happen. Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |

Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
942
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 19:03:00 -
[12] - Quote
Ottersmacker wrote:Why not let CCP have income from those willing to spend on NeX as long as it stays vanity and actual game development isn't hindered?
How can it not be? It takes people programming content to make stuff for MT sale. Lets say the engine trails form the last patch were one such "vanity" development and you now had to pay 3600 aurum to enable them on a specific ship. Our subscription money payed the artist / developer in question to enable this "vanity" feature. It took time that could have been spent on stuff that would actually come with the client we pay a subscription for.
Would you be happy having to get out your credit card to enable this piece of "vanity" content knowing you've already helped to pay the salary for its developers?
Quote:I have never bought an item from NeX, because they have yet to hit the sweet spot for my space vanity fantasies. I suppose a Jack-O'-Lantern-paintjob Brutix might do the trick..
See I just don't get how people are being suckered into this "vanity" spiel. Look back over the history of Eve expansions and so much graphic content of the past is pure "vanity" when you get down to it.
How the heck can you consider a ship skin "vanity" and be happy to consider paying extra when a nebula background and engine trail is not?
its nuts. But people seem to be getting brainwashed by the constant drone of microtransaction victims.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom. Jericho Fraction is Recruiting! |

Solstice Project
Cult of Personality
268
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 19:04:00 -
[13] - Quote
Also, the "unsub crisis" was not a result of that one reason you are giving, it was the result of a whole lot of things, INCLUDING the reason you are giving or INCLUDING the fear of what could happen ... EvE going f2p/p2win. Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |

Covert Kitty
SRS Industries SRS.
59
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 19:06:00 -
[14] - Quote
Quote:Why not let CCP have income from those willing to spend on NeX as long as it stays vanity and actual game development isn't hindered? The problem is that generally it's very hard to quantify how many people come into the game by making the gameplay more robust. It's easy to pull up sales figures for the nex and see how many people bought x and y, it's not as easy to see how many people never subscribe in the first place.
Let me give you an example. Remember the T2 blueprint / BoB scandal? I didn't play the game back then, but I did read about it on slashdot. Back then I was actually thinking about joining the game, I saw the ad's, the game looked like something I might like. However when I read about how gm's were giving certain groups special treatment, even going so far as spawning important items for those players, I was like "Sqrew that!" and I didn't subscribe, it wouldn't be another two years before I finally gave it a try.
Thing's like that are very hard to quantify, and that's the case with the nex. |

Stella SGP
The Kimotoro Initiative
37
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 19:09:00 -
[15] - Quote
But but I like my replica goggles and military heels... and would like to see them only available from the NEX store... |

Covert Kitty
SRS Industries SRS.
59
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 19:13:00 -
[16] - Quote
Quote:But but I like my replica goggles and military heels... Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of WiS, character customization, and all of that, your character looks cool. I just think it would be much better for the game as a whole if such items were gameplay derived. They can still be rare and high value, and you could always buy plex to sell to characters to raise the isk to buy them if you like as well.
I'm certainly not suggesting CCP should abandon WiS. |

Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
942
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 19:13:00 -
[17] - Quote
Solstice Project wrote: Jade ... Nex never was implemented for the core player base that flies in space, it was implemented for the other kind of players, that like to run around in Avatars.
Well last summer CCP Zinfandel and Mittani were talking about "golden ishukune scorpions" right from the NeX store straight into people's hangers. That doesn't sound like pure avatar polishing to me. In the same months we had talk about "convenience" microtransactions on things like ship fittings, respecs, etc etc. This stuff is the thin end on the wedge and it will come to mess up the flying in space eve online if it is allowed to corrupt CCP into delivering ship skins and corp/alliance logos in this manner.
Quote:These people like to pay money for useless stuff that's just there to "show off". I don't see any issues with that, as it doesn't have any impact on EvE/SpaceShips.
Incarna is effectively dead. NeXCarna apocalypse showed that the kind of "new players" who could be attracted to these things in no way makes up for the unsubscription of existing players who remained with ccp for the spaceships. Hence NeX remaining is going to be tempted to mess with the flying in space content and you'll see increased pressure on stuff we've traditionally seen as "part of the client" coming behind an $ paywall that will fracture the server into dollar haves and have nots. The danger is that it hits people right in the suspension of disbelief and they come to see this game not as an expect from the horrible economic disasters of the outside world - but an nasty little profiteering echo of such.
Quote:Again ... we made quite sure this won't happen.
That war isn't over. This weekend there are some collaborating voices on the current CSM who are going to be welcoming certain compromises on Microtransactions that will lead to nasty things in the future.
The eve we know is still under threat from the so-called "hybrid model" and while fans of microtransactions are happy to downplay the negative impact of long term players quitting over this stuff - the reality is that Eve is about its community and if the long-term community is comprehensively alienated by the fracturing of the playerbase between those who pay for extra content and those that don't then we'll see a resumption of the downward spiral that began last summer.
Crucible was a good expansion. It staunched the bleeding wounds.
Now we have to stop "industry experts" attaching microtransaction leeches to the patient before she's even gotten out of bed.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom. Jericho Fraction is Recruiting! |

Lord Ryan
True Xero
128
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 19:16:00 -
[18] - Quote
Only problem with NEX is that it was/is extremely over priced.
CCP please add more items to NEX or some of my alts the one I don't really need are unsubbing! -á"Nerf it cause I can't fly it". I want to fly a badass Mon Calamari stlye-ácruiser painted to match my Tron clothes. |

Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
942
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 19:20:00 -
[19] - Quote
Stella SGP wrote:But but I like my replica goggles and military heels... and would like to see them only available from the NEX store...
Why?
Because you think that makes it "exclusive"?
Its common as muck. Anybody with a CC can click button and replicate eternally.
If you wanted genuine exclusivity you'd argue for them coming as rare drops or at the end of some complicated player-led industrial function with an eve price tag in billions.
Or do you like to pretend these things are exclusive because you see eve as an essentially single player game?
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom. Jericho Fraction is Recruiting! |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
1981
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 19:23:00 -
[20] - Quote
Purpose of NeX: to reduce PLEX liabilities in CCP's books. Cost of removing NeX: loss of presumed (uncalculable) ROI (i.e. no reduction in liabilities). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |

Stella SGP
The Kimotoro Initiative
37
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 19:25:00 -
[21] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Stella SGP wrote:But but I like my replica goggles and military heels... and would like to see them only available from the NEX store... Why? Because you think that makes it "exclusive"? Its common as muck. Anybody with a CC can click button and replicate eternally. If you wanted genuine exclusivity you'd argue for them coming as rare drops or at the end of some complicated player-led industrial function with an eve price tag in billions. Or do you like to pretend these things are exclusive because you see eve as an essentially single player game? Pffft... No, I don't think of it as anything exclusive and don't really care about whether NEX is there or not. I just play with it since it is available, nothing more. |

Solhild
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
212
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 19:31:00 -
[22] - Quote
I have a problem with the NeX. Can more people please have a go at justifying getting rid of it. Thanks. |

Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
551
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 19:32:00 -
[23] - Quote
I think the cost savings are ever more so imaginary where as the horrible mess that PLEXs where going to cause isnt that far fectched.
Bottom line those stores will pay for themselves and then some.
|

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
524
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 19:35:00 -
[24] - Quote
Covert Kitty wrote:CCP has said that they feel that FtP / microtransactions, as opposed to the traditional subscription model is a growing trend, and at minimum they want to have a system in place in case "customers demand it". Well.. they are right, it is growing, or at least was. However, this is because the vast majority (if not all) top tier mmo's that use such a system have just been wow clones, clones that do the wow model slightly differently, but always more poorly than wow itself. So of course, just doing the same thing over again, more poorly than the last time, will find it hard to attract subscriptions. Other games, such as farmville and it's ilk, are just simply not good games, they couldn't make money under any other system. There are also some people that feel they cannot afford a subscription.
The natural progression of this line of thinking is "How do we integrate the two systems, so that we can attract more customers that are used to a FtP model". I would argue that this line of thinking is a fallacy. You do not fundamentally attract customers by diversifying your payment options, you attract them by making a good game. In addition, EvE is a niche game, the people who play it are attracted to that niche. Your goal is not to change EvE in such a way as to make it more palatable to your typical WoW player, but rather to invite them to join our niche on our terms, because eve offers that fundamentally different experience.
"EvE is forever", It's a good mantra, and it's the best way to think about your business. EvE is your business, your not going to make EvE2, your going to continue to expand on, redo, and maintain EvE. On that road you will have to take radical steps that shake people up, one day you may have to take a hard look at the skill system for example. However don't sacrifice short term gains for long term growth and stability.
The NeX is fundamentally gamplay displacing, and thus a drain on the overall game value of EvE, nobody is out there saying "Hey come play EvE because you can buy shoes for your avatar without playing the game". So, as you've said in the past "HTF", admit that it was a bad choice, and just get rid of it. Perhaps have the NeX items be distributed via semi-rare drops from faction bs's, commanders, plex's, etc. Ship skins are a good idea, but should expand on the manufacturing gameplay, not pop into existence via the NeX. All in game items, with the exception of plex should be derived from player actions in game.
Know what EvE is, attract EvE players, don't suffer from multiple personality disorder. MMO's as a whole are a dime a dozen these days, being niche is a GOOD THING :)
Keep focusing on what EvE is good at.
Did the bad NEX steal your lunch and throw your horn rim glass into the hay field when you were a kid?
It's okay. Times are different now. Leave it alone and it will leave you alone.
Mr Epeen 
If you can read this, you haven't blocked me yet. |

Covert Kitty
SRS Industries SRS.
61
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 19:39:00 -
[25] - Quote
Quote:Purpose of NeX: to reduce PLEX liabilities in CCP's books. If that's all they want to do then there are easier ways to fix it. For example:
Give plex a 1 year expiration time, this would limit the amount of long term stockpiles that could be held, in addition to eliminating stockpiles held by those that no longer play the game.
A better approach imo (though contentious I know) would be to allow players to sell plex to others for real money while CCP facilitates and collects a tax on that transaction.
Both of those are better options because they don't fundamentally harm the gameplay of Eve while fixing any long term issues with the plex model. They also do not put us on the microtransaction slippery slope. The real world exchange and tax system was used with success in second life for example, it's a far more Eve-like way of dealing with it imo. |

Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
942
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 19:42:00 -
[26] - Quote
Stella SGP wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Stella SGP wrote:But but I like my replica goggles and military heels... and would like to see them only available from the NEX store... Why? Because you think that makes it "exclusive"? Its common as muck. Anybody with a CC can click button and replicate eternally. If you wanted genuine exclusivity you'd argue for them coming as rare drops or at the end of some complicated player-led industrial function with an eve price tag in billions. Or do you like to pretend these things are exclusive because you see eve as an essentially single player game? Pffft... No, I don't think of it as anything exclusive and don't really care about whether NEX is there or not. I just play with it since it is available, nothing more.
So you wouldn't mind in the least if it was moved to a faction loyalty point store right?
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom. Jericho Fraction is Recruiting! |

Qin Shi Huang
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
15
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 19:46:00 -
[27] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Purpose of NeX: to reduce PLEX liabilities in CCP's books. Cost of removing NeX: loss of presumed (uncalculable) ROI (i.e. no reduction in liabilities).
Untangible benefits in a business case should always be quantifyable. They are "uncalculable" but you can still assign a dollar amount to an expected benefit. For example, decrease in employee turnover by 1% in year two ~$450,000 (project manager guess or some sexy analysis from HR). |

Zakuak
MortuuS MachinA
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 19:46:00 -
[28] - Quote
I didn't use the NEX as I have been in a WH for a long time but now im back in K-space and I have found my self shopping a little.
Nothing wrong with NEX, use it or do not. For some players it may very well add value to the game experience and for others, they may never even touch it but to not have it at all....that doesn't make sense.
You have a very diverse population in EVE...so a little of this and a little of that is a good thing.
WIS although not why I sub'd onto eve is still a cool idea. I love the idea that I am now a human toon and not a spaceship all the time. NEX offers up some vanity variety and if it expands with more products will offer an even more personalized Identity for the players to connect with. OFC, none of the NEX stuff means poodoo if you can't run out in your new outfit and show other toons....
|

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
1981
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 19:50:00 -
[29] - Quote
Zakuak wrote:Nothing wrong with NEX GǪexcept that it steals away content from the normal industrial-economy cycle.
Qin Shi Huang wrote:Untangible benefits in a business case should always be quantifyable. They are "uncalculable" but you can still assign a dollar amount to an expected benefit. True, but I don't think they expected it to (in part) cause a loss of income in the order of $2GÇô4 million.  GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |

Covert Kitty
SRS Industries SRS.
62
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 19:52:00 -
[30] - Quote
Quote:Nothing wrong with NEX, use it or do not. For some players it may very well add value to the game experience and for others, they may never even touch it but to not have it at all....that doesn't make sense. I don't want to get rid of the items that currently NeX is supplying, nor the idea of WiS, or better character customization. I like the idea of all these things. However they should be obtained from gameplay, and like any other item in the game, anyone given enough isk could buy it from other players on the market. It's the NeX itself that I want gone, replaced by gameplay for those items / features. |
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