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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
5236
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Posted - 2015.08.12 21:35:08 -
[211] - Quote
PAPULA wrote:http://www.netsky.org/CCPJFRT.zip
RAW, UnCut, Full Length.
CCP/CSM Round Table: Jump Fatigue 2 hours 2 minutes.
Thank you! Downloading now.
Mike's Soundcloud isn't working for me  |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
593
|
Posted - 2015.08.12 21:37:59 -
[212] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:https://soundcloud.com/mike-azariah/jump
done and yes I know that the voice over is distracting, I honestly do not hear it anymore unless it is pointed out. It was just background noise for me.
I will do better next time (if there is a next time)
m
thank you mike! :) |
Neuntausend
Rens Nursing Home
264
|
Posted - 2015.08.12 22:13:12 -
[213] - Quote
I am severely disappointed by this "townhall" thing. To me it looked like a very feeble attempt at damage control, and yet some people were still not able to put their ego second for once.
What I got out of this was "Eve is fine, L2P noobs". From a fellow player, I can take that. From a dev however, I don't want to hear this. |
Tobias Frank
5
|
Posted - 2015.08.12 22:17:30 -
[214] - Quote
Thanks for uploading Mike! Next time please disable the Teamspeak sound notifications when recording.  |
knobber Jobbler
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
568
|
Posted - 2015.08.12 22:18:40 -
[215] - Quote
I didn't want to be automatically negative about this but, it wasn't really a round table, more question and then defensive answering by CCP, without using any specifics. Unless they're willing to concede points and actually discuss the topics rather than brush off questions with some very canned responses i.e. "we might take a look in the future" or just being plain defensive, then there is little point to ideas like this regardless of the best intentions of the people who set it up.
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Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
2930
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Posted - 2015.08.13 03:52:22 -
[216] - Quote
knobber Jobbler wrote:I didn't want to be automatically negative about this but, it wasn't really a round table, more question and then defensive answering by CCP, without using any specifics. Unless they're willing to concede points and actually discuss the topics rather than brush off questions with some very canned responses i.e. "we might take a look in the future" or just being plain defensive, then there is little point to ideas like this regardless of the best intentions of the people who set it up.
Out of curiousity, How would it have been better set up, then?
Please remember that CCP does not plan on announcing new things at informal q and a sessions. But would you decide to select a small crew of players excluding the larger population as not being worthy of having the floor? Exclude anybody who has not FC'd?. Who?
Or maybe it would have been better if we moderated more sternly . . . wander off topic, *shachchack BOOM* on to the next person.
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
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Marcus Covinus
The Blood Ankhs
1
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Posted - 2015.08.13 05:56:27 -
[217] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:knobber Jobbler wrote:I didn't want to be automatically negative about this but, it wasn't really a round table, more question and then defensive answering by CCP, without using any specifics. Unless they're willing to concede points and actually discuss the topics rather than brush off questions with some very canned responses i.e. "we might take a look in the future" or just being plain defensive, then there is little point to ideas like this regardless of the best intentions of the people who set it up.
Out of curiousity, How would it have been better set up, then? Please remember that CCP does not plan on announcing new things at informal q and a sessions. But would you decide to select a small crew of players excluding the larger population as not being worthy of having the floor? Exclude anybody who has not FC'd?. Who? Or maybe it would have been better if we moderated more sternly . . . wander off topic, *shachchack BOOM* on to the next person. m
It would've been better had CCP come ready to defend and discuss their positions. Instead of the "canned response". They made some rather belligerent remarks during the recourse of the roundtable that shows a severe bias in their thought process regarding development. CCP Fozzie has ZERO null sec experience as we are all aware.
His lack of experience is incredibly evident in the way he discusses the topics brought up during the roundtable. He's lucky CCP (I forgot his name the englishmen) was there to save him by being diplomatic.
Limiting mobility in a game where the largest problem is stagnation and the biggest threat to sov is an interceptor or other frigate with an entosis link. Get your head out of your arse and solve the real problem.
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WhyTry1
Comply Or Die
Suddenly Spaceships.
92
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Posted - 2015.08.13 07:24:37 -
[218] - Quote
Baki Yuku wrote:Hello, Baki Yuku of Black Legion rental overlord and fc thereof. I have a question for CCP regarding the jump-changes where CCP repeatedly stated moving should not be easy which just seems a bit silly to me because CCPGÇÖs version of GÇ£difficultGÇ¥ seems to be more time consuming and tedious instead of actual difficulty in any meaning full way. Why is it that a game should be GÇ£difficultGÇ¥ which in CCP words means time consuming to the point where it feels like having a second job? Should game not first and foremost be about fun? Spending 6-10 hours on a move op is not fun. Being more or less forced to destroy or entire dreadnought fleet in Venal and having to rebuild them in lowsec because it is economically sound and for the sake of our memberGÇÖs sanity to do so is not fun either. You might say well you had the choice between moving them or insuring them and blowing them up to rebuild them in lowsec but it really was not a choice. It was a GÇ£forcedGÇ¥ choice so to speak. It allowed us to preserve the sanity of our members at the expanse of my own.
Really? I dont understand you guys one minute its HTFU Eve is not easy, and secondly oh eve is too hard please make it easy! It seems its only when it makes your game hard its a problem when its someone else then they get trolled to htfu. For too long large nullsec alliances have had it for too easy. Even your statement rental overlord states basically as an alliance youre too damn lazy to own your own space and make money from it yourselves. You believe that your numbers and caps should get you out of trouble, well it shouldnt, thats been the issue. Probably even harder for BL being a jabber ping alliance!
Why dont yo uuse your own space for building? Why not mine your own minerals to make it more viable? No because you simply cant be arsed and thats what CCP has at last decided to say enough is enough.
One minute people want simulation and then when its suits them arcade mode. You want eve to be real but then not.
Imagine you are really in deep space, in hostile space, do you think it would be easy then? People colonise because they are zillions of miles away from space hubs. You have to do the same, you have to make your home. If you cant do that then perhaps you should not be living in nullsec?
Jump Fatigue Solution
Everyone was crying out for this, and the only people whining about it is surprisinig the large null sec alliances with caps that cant move around quickly to hotdrop whoever they want at a moments notice.
Also solo pilots trying to moving caps, supers and titans. You complain about choke points and being stuck, without someone easily knowing your next move. Well low sec have had this problem for years its called pirate gate camps. But for some reason thats Ok and people need to figure it out and not be so dumb. Go figure.
But really should you ever be moving a super or titan alone? without any support? of course not, thats a big target saying suicide and you being completely dumb.
But I agree its a little too easy for the person finding you. What i think might be a good change is that you can change the amount you can jump on a slider, which affects the jump fatiqgue factor and of course fuel consumption. For example if you want to jump 6LY then the jump fatique would be higher than if you jumped 5LY. I think this should be up to a maximum of 15LY. So at least you can have more options, not succumb so much to choke points, but still slows down power projection.
FozzieSov.
for too long alliances have been able to own stupid amounts of space and not even live in it, rent it out, use the moons and pretty much sit back and rely on supers to be the I win button, especially when jump fatigue wasnt around. CCP have decided and a great move it is, to say hey if you want space then your going to have to actually live in it, grow it, colonise it, and if you cant well you shouldnt have it. Bravo! absolutely the right thing to do.
its already had a profound affect, and especially on those large alliances such as NC. BL. etc that are just jabber ping alliances that are not active constantly and their members have got to used to playing the cap game.
But its been great for the smaller guys to grab some space and fight over it too. So I have to surprisingly give CCP the thumbs up and this one. Its about time.
Yes there are things that need to improve on fozziesov, its always been ike this in eve, things progress and change as the players feedback and use it more. Alliances like XXDeath who are crying because it affects their rental empire and botting need to get with the program and get in the new world or gtfo. Im tired of large vet alliances blackmailing CCP, you are not the future of eve, new players are and i think the penny has finally dropped with CCP.
Even though there is still a lot more work to do around the game to bring more players in. And CCP will need to make some big balls decisions like they recently have to do that. Stopping scamming for example is one.
However and this maybe controversial i think its time we had a new server instance, sorry but i dont agree with the one server philosophy, we have alliance been around for years that have taken and kept all the resources in eve for many years and left none for anyone else. its not fair on new players or newer players that they will never be able to have control of this. This is why many other mmos have multiple instances so that everyone has equal opportunities. Oh an no one would be able to transfer chars or ISK to a new server, incase you was wondering..
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knobber Jobbler
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
569
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Posted - 2015.08.13 08:36:34 -
[219] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:knobber Jobbler wrote:I didn't want to be automatically negative about this but, it wasn't really a round table, more question and then defensive answering by CCP, without using any specifics. Unless they're willing to concede points and actually discuss the topics rather than brush off questions with some very canned responses i.e. "we might take a look in the future" or just being plain defensive, then there is little point to ideas like this regardless of the best intentions of the people who set it up.
Out of curiousity, How would it have been better set up, then? Please remember that CCP does not plan on announcing new things at informal q and a sessions. But would you decide to select a small crew of players excluding the larger population as not being worthy of having the floor? Exclude anybody who has not FC'd?. Who? Or maybe it would have been better if we moderated more sternly . . . wander off topic, *shachchack BOOM* on to the next person. m
Lets look at the reality - if you stick 100 people into a TS channel to discuss something it will turn into a clusterfuck so that isn't a viable proposition for a round table. They'll all start talking, it will go to **** and TS will crash.
It's not really about not being worthy, it's about picking players who have both experience and the maturity to hold a discussion, putting forth both their views and that of the wider community but also CCP being more willing to take part in open discussion and talk about potential concepts and ideas. No offence to the CSM, but this isn't something the CSM should be doing for players either - in the CSM right now I see only 3 people experienced in capitals (Endie, Manfred and shart). Why just hold one anyway? Hold as many as it takes to get the views in and thrash out the discussion.
So how could it be improved? I didn't hear one question to the players saying "how would you feel if we tried this?". That is a round table. That would be a great start to improving these.
The fear players will misinterpret what they say put out ideas? They need to drop the fear of players misinterpreting what they're saying or jumping to conclusions about that. State at the start it's a discussion, nothing more. Otherwise there is simply no point to these types of player interactions. Part of the reason that they get players misinterpreting what they say is the lack of interaction, the lack of proper discussion with players. All we get is Fozzie and Rise on their high horses making statements which make little sense to a good deal of players which then get misinterpreted or they just stone wall and say nothing which infuriates people. It's like they've been in some kind of PR training. Bill Hicks had some good advice for those types. They can defuse the whole supercap thing right now but having a very open discussion, a proper round table where they clearly state the ideas discussed are not what we're going to do but will be considered. If they don't, it will just get worse and worse.
Gathering customer - remember, we're customers - feedback in a constructive and useful manner has well developed methodologies which can be used if CCP wanted to adopt those but it does involve question and answers at some point. Not 3 canned responses and questions only going one way.
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Magnifikus Erzverwirrer
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Legion
22
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Posted - 2015.08.13 09:45:48 -
[220] - Quote
It was abit like, come join me riding my dead horse :) |
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Zappity
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
2426
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Posted - 2015.08.13 10:28:47 -
[221] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Out of curiousity, How would it have been better set up, then?
Please remember that CCP does not plan on announcing new things at informal q and a sessions. But would you decide to select a small crew of players excluding the larger population as not being worthy of having the floor? Exclude anybody who has not FC'd?. Who?
Or maybe it would have been better if we moderated more sternly . . . wander off topic, *shachchack BOOM* on to the next person.
m
The absence of new talking points was the problem. There has been continuous feedback ever since Phoebe (posts, blogs, reddit, podcasts) so why they thought a specific feedback session now would yield any new fruit is beyond me. The mere act of calling for feedback at this late stage is aggravating because it makes people feel they have been ignored up to now.
They should have made a few announcements which gave an indication of what they are thinking of doing beforehand, preferably at a concept level rather than specific figures which people could get bogged down in. If they truly wanted feedback they should have done homework - there was plenty of it around.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
Desman Alliance
167
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Posted - 2015.08.13 11:04:52 -
[222] - Quote
As we're speaking of communication problems, I'd like to express my concern here.
It often looks like CCP knew for years that there were some specific problem, but they could not find any solution for it - and thus just let it rot. They have tools like statistics to detect those problems, and they are not biased, so it's not a surprise if CCP and player-base have different view on which are real issues and which are not.
But once CCP detects the problem, why dont they come out to forums and say: "Folks, we need some help, could you give us a brainstorm regarding that thing?" Brainstorming with a group of non-experts is a valid approach and why they deprive themselves of that option - I have no idea.
I dont have much to prove myself right, and maybe it's just an illusion. But as an example, I remember CCP Greyscale wanted to implement unified fuel blocks for POSes for quite a while, but didnt know how to make a transition. I bet if he asked it on forums, the solution would've been found the same day. EVE players are very inventive ;-) |
Yroc Jannseen
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
134
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Posted - 2015.08.13 11:20:21 -
[223] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:[quote=knobber Jobbler]
Out of curiousity, How would it have been better set up, then?
Please remember that CCP does not plan on announcing new things at informal q and a sessions. But would you decide to select a small crew of players excluding the larger population as not being worthy of having the floor? Exclude anybody who has not FC'd?. Who?
Or maybe it would have been better if we moderated more sternly . . . wander off topic, *shachchack BOOM* on to the next person.
m
The level of moderation was not the problem.
It really is an issue of the wrong people asking the questions. If CCP wants feedback they should be asking us questions.
You have to realize that holding a session to get feedback for a mechanic change that has literally stopped people from logging into certain accounts, is going to be contentious. The attitude going in from CCP needed to be immensely more humble and they needed to have far less hubris. I think part of the defensive attitude comes directly from Dev's feeling like they are constantly on the defensive.
It's pretty terrible to have an event where supposedly the devs are looking for feedback where they outright reject questions large parts of the community have had to ponder, because they are so out of touch they think the question is unreasonable. If this wasn't presented as a question and instead simply as an experience and CCP actually asked follow up questions that could be better.
But it's hard to say because as we heard with the BL dread self destruction example, CCP can also have a tendency to just right things off as "those crazy kids" |
B0RG 0VERLORD
Viziam
Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.08.13 11:36:54 -
[224] - Quote
CCP Killing eve so we all go buy Valkyrie ....Remembers promises of world of darkness....another ccp success,successfully failed.start listening to your fan-base ccp or your going to end up like your games,dying
will not be purchasing any more of ccp products
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Yroc Jannseen
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
134
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Posted - 2015.08.13 12:23:49 -
[225] - Quote
I actually just thought of a better way to illustrate some of the issues with yesterdays discussion.
One of the big major face palm moments I remember for the player base was the assertion by the Dev's that Phoebe had little effect on the possibilities of something like B-R happening again. CCP Fozzie's thesis, was that B-R happened because two large super capital groups were deployed near each other. He then cited the NC./Darkness vs Imperium conflict in Fountain/Delve earlier this year as an example that two large super groups can still come together and that we were basically a spark away from another B-R.
The problem is he is missing the aspect of the player experience surrounding that Fountain/Delve deployment. The move ops to and back from that region have shaped players views far more than any fighting that did or didn't happen. Moving down was painful and took more than a week. Moving back was just as bad and those people who missed the first move op and wound up in the second op on our side, were dropped by BL. Anyone who missed both was now faced with the solo move prospect.
Now argue about the specifics of that all you want. But the very act of many of us going through that move put in serious questions as to whether we would ever want to do that again. The very thing that Fozzie is citing as an example, is actually a better example for the players involved as to why Phoebe hurts the possibilities of a B-R style fight.
Now devs can't see the individual experience of players. But stepping back and listening to player feedback might help them see a different side of a scenario that they have already formed an opinion on. |
Alyxportur
From Our Cold Dead Hands
97
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Posted - 2015.08.13 14:09:54 -
[226] - Quote
In the http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/phoebe-travel-change-update/ blog post it was said: "This blog describes the final state of affairs for what is shipping in Phoebe GÇô barring catastrophe we will not be making further adjustments."
Does this mean that CCP is acknowledging that something catastrophic has happened to the game/playerbase on account of jump fatigue since the release of Phoebe? |
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
998
|
Posted - 2015.08.13 14:13:24 -
[227] - Quote
"There is only one boss. The customer. And he can fire everybody in the company from the chairman on down, simply by spending his money somewhere else."
-Sam Walton
I was extremely impressed by how little CCP seemed to appreciated the concerns of the player base yesterday. On top of the demeaning remarks made towards the CSM I was also surprised by the arrogance presented by a few members of CCP. I get it though, CCP had the tone of feeling ambushed so instead of providing logical defusing comments they had emotional reactions.
Hopefully CCP will walk away from this experience motivated knowing that the EVE player base still cares about the game and wants change to happen for the better. If we can take anything from this experience it should be that the PLAYERS were PREPARED, CCP was NOT.
*An observation: Eve has a very high "average age" and there are quite a few experienced professional amongst the ranks. When CCP tries to talk down to their player base they should expect what we are seeing now. This is a space sim full of IT nerds, the players aren't stupid.
"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."
U-MAD Membership Recruitment
PoH Corporation Recruitment
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Lim Hiaret
Hiaret Family
18
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Posted - 2015.08.13 15:25:47 -
[228] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote:"There is only one boss. The customer. And he can fire everybody in the company from the chairman on down, simply by spending his money somewhere else."
-Sam Walton
This is wrong about this statement: One boss means one person vs. the customer in case of EVE means maybe about 50k people. And no, 50k people do not share the same view on this matter.
Zeus Maximo wrote:
I was extremely impressed by how little CCP seemed to appreciated the concerns of the player base yesterday. On top of the demeaning remarks made towards the CSM I was also surprised by the arrogance presented by a few members of CCP.
I did listen to all of the soundcloud and I could not find any arrogance on behalf of CCP or any Dev. Could you repeat such a statement?
Zeus Maximo wrote:
*An observation: Eve has a very high "average age" and there are quite a few experienced professional amongst the ranks. When CCP tries to talk down to their player base they should expect what we are seeing now. This is a space sim full of IT nerds, the players aren't stupid.
Again, I did not hear any answers of CCP, that would imply stupidity of a player.
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Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
998
|
Posted - 2015.08.13 17:15:19 -
[229] - Quote
Lim Hiaret wrote:
Could you repeat such a statement?
Everyone hears things differently. I don't expect you to think the same way I do either. What I posted was my opinion to CCP therefore validating my opinion to you is useless.
"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."
U-MAD Membership Recruitment
PoH Corporation Recruitment
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Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
680
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Posted - 2015.08.13 20:09:23 -
[230] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote:Lim Hiaret wrote:
Could you repeat such a statement?
Everyone hears things differently. I don't expect you to think the same way I do either. What I posted was my opinion to CCP therefore validating my opinion to you is useless.
In other words Zeus cant back his statement up and is trying desperately not to look like a total fool.
Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin
you're welcome
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Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
998
|
Posted - 2015.08.13 20:29:34 -
[231] - Quote
Darek Castigatus wrote:Zeus Maximo wrote:Lim Hiaret wrote:
Could you repeat such a statement?
Everyone hears things differently. I don't expect you to think the same way I do either. What I posted was my opinion to CCP therefore validating my opinion to you is useless. In other words Zeus cant back his statement up and is trying desperately not to look like a total fool.
This thread isn't about me so I'm trying to keep you all on topic. 
"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates
Get Off My Lawn
1568
|
Posted - 2015.08.14 07:19:29 -
[232] - Quote
Does anyone have the statistics that CCP Larrikin linked at the end of the discussion?
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
999
|
Posted - 2015.08.14 13:30:13 -
[233] - Quote
To the Discussion
CCP Larrikin started his thread there and the statistics are linked.
"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates
Get Off My Lawn
1578
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Posted - 2015.08.15 09:47:27 -
[234] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote:To the DiscussionCCP Larrikin started his thread there and the statistics are linked.
Thank you. Not sure why I didn't see it in that thread.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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xttz
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
652
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Posted - 2015.08.15 15:52:28 -
[235] - Quote
CCP Larrikin wrote:Hi Space Friends, Thanks for those that attended the Q&A session today, we appreciate those who took the time. We'd like to use this thread as a method of discussing Jump Fatigue ideas. Some of the interesting suggestions that we'd heard and would like to see player opinions on - - Altering jump ranges
- Sovereignty effects on Jump Fatigue (e.g. jumping out of/back into capitals reducing jump fatigue)
I really think that these two simple changes would make a huge improvement not only for general quality of life in null-sec, but to encourage a bit more content. Imagine this:
- All ships that currently have a 2.5ly base range are bumped up to 3-4ly (6-8ly max). Perhaps boost Blops to 5ly too.
- Being in your alliance's capital system (or better yet, constellation containing the capital) causes some large benefit to jump fatigue (but not jump cooldown). Either it decays much faster, vanishes completely after a fixed time, whatever.
Now any alliance will have the ability to project force quite quickly around their core systems, but still cannot venture too far across the map. Other alliances who currently base in NPC null-sec that want to invade, or simply just mess with nearby groups, will have a major incentive to carve out a little nearby system for themselves to gain these benefits also. This in turn is a nice little recipe for conflict.
Alyxportur wrote:In the http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/phoebe-travel-change-update/ blog post it was said: "This blog describes the final state of affairs for what is shipping in Phoebe GÇô barring catastrophe we will not be making further adjustments." Does this mean that CCP is acknowledging that something catastrophic has happened to the game/playerbase on account of jump fatigue since the release of Phoebe?
I'm reading that as "we won't make further changes to this before Phoebe releases". Greyscale and other devs were quite clear that they wanted to make other adjustments to long distance travel in future, especially reducing the range of jump freighters once other changes had been made to allow for easier logistics. |
Poranius Fisc
State War Academy
Caldari State
7
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Posted - 2015.08.18 17:22:57 -
[236] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Folks, I am one of the people helping to collect the questions. So you know? I IGNORE people who cannot follow basic instructions. I am collecting questions. If you write some commands of what you want done I will pass over you and go on to the next person. This is NOT your oppostunity to give orders it is an q and a session.
Now I know you lot are intelligent enough to write specific ideas in the form of questions and I welcome that. Flat out CCP do Dis. Just won't make the cut.
. . .
any questions?
m
Has it been looked at on how much of this jump fatigue is making the cost of plex stay at it's current rate?
How about the flow of mins , materials and items in and out of Null? |
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
978
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Posted - 2015.09.01 15:17:22 -
[237] - Quote
Holy **** why have you not done something to jump fatigue yet.
It's September already...
Not today spaghetti.
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