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probing mission runners in 0.0 and low sec is fair atm

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Draconian Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2006.12.08 19:33:00 - [1] lets all look at miners and belt npcers they risk more than lvl 4 missioners why b/c a pvper doesnt nd to scan down its target he just warps to the belts after locating target with the dir scanner no probes needed at all mission runners still have grter advantages atm
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.12.08 19:42:00 - [2] This really isn't even worth a reply, but I am bored, so... Which rock do YOU live under? A miner or NPCer can do his thing in a ship worth next to nothing. He can abondon his task at a seconds notice (hostile in local) without much of a penalty. Not to mention the new probing is probably FASTER in locating a mission runner than the using the directional scanner to find someone in a belt is... Really, my opinion of the PvP players is dropping lower and lower with all the tards spouting their drivel lately... (Sorry for the real PvPers, I know some of you are great guys but these selfish fools make your entire species look bad). --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Commander Nikolas Gallente Arcana Imperii Ltd. Sani Khal'Vecna	Posted - 2006.12.08 21:11:00 - [3] Of course it is fair, you just posted this thread in the wrong forum to have anyone agree with you. :)
Ogdru Jahad Amarr	Posted - 2006.12.08 21:32:00 - [4] it was fair before. you just basically got handed pvp on a silver platter. now any noob can do it with the skills on his or her chr - Want to Npc/mine at same time in a rich part of eve? Join Voodoochildren for more details. ask for Ogdru.
DiuxDium The Graduates	Posted - 2006.12.08 21:40:00 - [5] Originally by: Draconian lets all look at miners and belt npcers they risk more than lvl 4 missioners why b/c a pvper doesnt nd to scan down its target he just warps to the belts after locating target with the dir scanner no probes needed at all mission runners still have grter advantages atm List all the reasons a mission runner has an advantage over a NPC'er. Timeout! Party time.
Maera Dimitrios	Posted - 2006.12.08 21:58:00 - [6] Sure it's fair, if you ignore logic. Other than PvP'ers showing in system, miner's only have to deal with respawning rats. There is an excellent chance that they will be neither damaged nor engaged at the time a player pirate shows up. If you're mission running in low-sec DED-space, however, you're already engaged with hostiles. The player pirate shows up, you're most likely already locked onto target(s) and you're already taking hits, as well as possibly ECM, from the rats. The nature of the overview also favors miner's in this aspect. A hostile shows up on the overview, it's going to be obvious as there were no hostiles there before. The mission runner, on the other hand, likely already has a full overview full of hostiles. What's more, with the way the overview jumps about as distances change, it isn't that difficult to see where a pirate may show in the middle of a pack of rats and simply not be noticed. The miner also is under no time restrictions, other than those that are self-imposed. The mission runner, on the other hand, has a two deadlines. One for the bonus, one for the mission complete reward. The pirate is quite free to set in the DED-space room and ensure that the mission runner cannot complete the mission. He cannot do that to the miner. Oh, this is in addition to the fact that the miner can move to another belt, or another system all together, whereas the mission runner has no choice but to return. Thus it is made easier to set a trap for him should the pirate chase him out of DED-space. Now, let's look at risk-vs-reward. It's supposed to be the greater the risk, the higher the reward. I've spoken to many folks in-game that have started second accounts to mine and supply with. It would appear that once you've gotten past the high-sec mining, mining is actually more profitable than the missions (over time). It just doesn't increase loyalty, as far as I know. So, the reward is greater for mining than mission running (admittedly, presumably) and before, the risk was greater as well. Now, the risk is greater for mission running, but the rewards are the same. So, how is it fair that pirates can scan you in a DED-space pocket you had to get the mission to access and attack you there? It's not, it just gives pirates yet another advantage.
lollerskates Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2006.12.08 23:16:00 - [7] Originally by: Maera Dimitrios So, how is it fair that pirates can scan you in a DED-space pocket you had to get the mission to access and attack you there? It's not, it just gives pirates yet another advantage. Just because people are too ignorant to watch local for lowsec players with bounties or periodically refresh scanner for probes means it's overpowered? For years mission runners have been INVINCIBLE, scanning missions didn't work due to them being off plane with everything else, and most mission runners having instadocks. Now they all cry because suddenly they can die in LOW SEC. I have no sympathy for people who can't sense danger when there are signs of it for minutes before their demise, and all I can say is: WELCOME TO LOW SEC! YOU CAN DIE. THAT'S THE POINT OF IT.
Landarian Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2006.12.08 23:42:00 - [8] I'm sorry but loller's response is retarded ... the whole POINT of missions is PVE, not PVP. The absolutely LAST thing a mission pilot needs during a lvl 4 Gurista Extravaganza or Enemies Abound is dealing with some asshat pirate who tracked him down in a mission space and is sitting there, waiting for the pilot to be down to 30% armor or worse, and then pops him with no risk to himself whatsoever. Sec status of the system _should_ be irrelevant - once in a deadspace for a mission, the pirate should have no access to the pilot at all. You wanna kill me before I get there? fine. After I come out, hauling my loot? fine. But while I'm inside? hell no. L
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.12.09 00:36:00 - [9] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 09/12/2006 00:40:31 Originally by: lollerskates Originally by: Maera Dimitrios So, how is it fair that pirates can scan you in a DED-space pocket you had to get the mission to access and attack you there? It's not, it just gives pirates yet another advantage. Just because people are too ignorant to watch local for lowsec players with bounties or periodically refresh scanner for probes means it's overpowered? For years mission runners have been INVINCIBLE, scanning missions didn't work due to them being off plane with everything else, and most mission runners having instadocks. Now they all cry because suddenly they can die in LOW SEC. I have no sympathy for people who can't sense danger when there are signs of it for minutes before their demise, and all I can say is: WELCOME TO LOW SEC! YOU CAN DIE. THAT'S THE POINT OF IT. And another pirate who has no clue about missions and the new probes. Now you can be accurately probed from 20 or even 48 AU away. And even you probably know that the directional scanner only has a range of 14ish AU. So how exactly can I sa***uard me by scanning? Not to mention that you can be probed down now in roughly 20 secs with full skills and rigs on the prober. I certainly would love to see you shoot the NPCs, manage you tank, and scan every single second coz thats what you need to do to be safe from the current probes. Or your other option is to warp out anytime a potential hostile appears in local, even if he is just passing through which you don't know. And this makes mission running about as productive as drilling a hole through your knee and pouring raspberry juice through it. Welcome to reality. Get a clue please. There is a lot more to successful mission running than the average braindead gankbear cares to believe. I dare say it actually requires a lot more skill and attention than your stupid ganking does. Not like there is any room for common sense or balance in your nice little biased world of grief... With that said, the guy above me is just as wrong. There MUST be a way to get into missions for pirates in lowsec. But that way needs to be hard, take a bit of time, and the attentive mission runner must be able to pick up warning clues other than a hostile presence in local. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
lollerskates Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2006.12.09 00:41:00 - [10] Originally by: Landarian the whole POINT of missions is PVE, not PVP. if you want to PVE all day, GO PLAY WOW. if you don't, stay in empire.
lollerskates Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2006.12.09 00:43:00 - [11] Originally by: Leandro Salazar And another pirate who has no clue about missions and the new probes. Yes, I have no idea how probes or missions work. I have never used a probe nor done a mission. /sigh
natashii Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2006.12.09 00:44:00 - [12] OKay you kids are missing the point. You can do your missions in empire if you don't want to run the risk of dying. Low sec IS LOW SEC for a reason. It's the risk factor. It's your job, if you are ratting, or mission whoring to check the scanner and to check incoming locals. If you are the only person in local and it jumps up even by 1 or 2 or more its your job to check to see if its an incoming threat. Blaming people playing the game is retarded. Not Drac's or Loller's post. LOW SEC is LOW SEC. If you are that scared and upset of getting yourself blown up, do your freaking missions in empire. You have no business even being in low sec or 0.0. So get the hell out. ============================== lolol old sig had to go...this will have to do
Tatsue Niko Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2006.12.09 00:49:00 - [13] Originally by: Landarian I'm sorry but loller's response is retarded ... the whole POINT of missions is PVE, not PVP. L This is where you are lacking,The whole POINT of EVE is PVP,Why should you,doing a mission,be immune to any kind of attacks? A npcer can be killed at any time,Yet he still will be engaged in PVE and most likely has taken som damage,Yet he can warp out,Guess what so can you. Get you before you get to the mission gate? If you're not thinking of killing at stations,which leads pirating to blobbing,you must mean at the gate before you jump in,now THATS retarded. You know EVE is all about risk versus reward,and in low sec you get more risk..thats exactly how its supposed to be. Leandro,All it takes for the NPCer in 0.4 is to always align out to a safe when fighting,its not hard. Warp scrambling NPCs? well its the same for a npcer,just kill those first and then deal with the rest. If you're in DS with gates,just set down scanner to lower range and if someone comes up on scanner,you'd know he's on the gate where you entered.. The more you see,The less you know
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.12.09 00:58:00 - [14] Originally by: natashii OKay you kids are missing the point. You can do your missions in empire if you don't want to run the risk of dying. Low sec IS LOW SEC for a reason. It's the risk factor. It's your job, if you are ratting, or mission whoring to check the scanner and to check incoming locals. If you are the only person in local and it jumps up even by 1 or 2 or more its your job to check to see if its an incoming threat. Blaming people playing the game is retarded. Not Drac's or Loller's post. LOW SEC is LOW SEC. If you are that scared and upset of getting yourself blown up, do your freaking missions in empire. You have no business even being in low sec or 0.0. So get the hell out. In fact it is YOU who misses the point. Risk is fine. But atm it is not risk, it is pretty much a death guarantee, and you CANNOT! protect yourself against it while still retaining even a shadow of fun or profit. Most of us don't want the risk removed. We want it balanced, and we want our way to protect ourselves (scanning) back. The only thing that was bad about the pre-Kali probing was the disc thing and the need for 3 probes. Do away with that (already done), return everything else how it used to be, and you have a fine system that caters to both the runner and the pirate. But the current jump-probe-gank all within 2 minutes needs to go, at least against mission runners. It is fine against safespotloggers. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
natashii Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2006.12.09 01:08:00 - [15] Edited by: natashii on 09/12/2006 01:13:08 No see hun. It's the other way around. You aren't willing to take responsibility for your own risks. Death is a part of this game. If you are so scared of it. Go back to empire so you wont have to 'risk' being probed. You guys have been getting away with invincible bull**** in low sec for far too long. It's now up to par and people are going to whine about it because the aren't getting what they want. You have no business being in Low sec and sure as hell not in 0.0. In fact, you should probably find another game to play. If you honestly take it that seriously. I suggest you pick up Tetris. ============================== lolol old sig had to go...this will have to do
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.12.09 01:12:00 - [16] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 09/12/2006 01:14:20 Originally by: Tatsue Niko Leandro,All it takes for the NPCer in 0.4 is to always align out to a safe when fighting,its not hard. That statement tells me everything about your 'knowledge' about mission running. It is indeed quite hard to do that in many missions. Quote: Warp scrambling NPCs? well its the same for a npcer,just kill those first and then deal with the rest. If you're in DS with gates,just set down scanner to lower range and if someone comes up on scanner,you'd know he's on the gate where you entered.. And how exactly does that help you when you are in the first room? You people really have a very very one-sided view of things. And the funny thing is, one month from now, if CCPs, fix isn't good enough, you will be the guys crying on the forum about lowsec being deserted... Sure we can go back to highsec, but I LIKE lowsec. I like the risk (not even 50% of my missions actually put me far enough offplane to be unprobable, most gankbears just didn't bother because it required skill and patience and was not a guaranteed insta-gratification, and that way it was fine), I like the chance to do PvP. But I enjoy being subjected to PvP while engaged in heavy PvE about as much as you would enjoy PvE in the form of a highsec-power concord spawn wtfbbqpwning you while you are engaged in a thrilling PvP fight. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
lollerskates Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2006.12.09 01:15:00 - [17] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Sure we can go back to highsec, but I LIKE lowsec. /plays the world's smallest violin
Tatsue Niko Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2006.12.09 01:19:00 - [18] Originally by: Leandro Salazar In fact it is YOU who misses the point. Risk is fine. But atm it is not risk, it is pretty much a death guarantee, and you CANNOT! protect yourself against it while still retaining even a shadow of fun or profit. Most of us don't want the risk removed. We want it balanced, and we want our way to protect ourselves (scanning) back. The only thing that was bad about the pre-Kali probing was the disc thing and the need for 3 probes. Do away with that (already done), return everything else how it used to be, and you have a fine system that caters to both the runner and the pirate. But the current jump-probe-gank all within 2 minutes needs to go, at least against mission runners. It is fine against safespotloggers. Oh,so there's pirates in every system now is it,there's pirate in local every second you play? Then you might be in a bad system,ofcourse you can protect yourself,bring a corpmate,and kill the damn pirate. Ofcourse you can scan us,as i said in my last post,just find out where the entry gate is in space (if its DS) and do a 5 degree scan on it and refresh now and then. If its a normal mission,just be on your toes and always align towards a celestial or safespot The more you see,The less you know
natashii Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2006.12.09 01:22:00 - [19] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 09/12/2006 01:14:20 I like the risk Obviously you DO NOT like risk at all. Provided its not in your favour. Dude seriously, all you have to do, to keep yourself from getting ganked, is to ACTUALLY take the time to watch your back. Pay attention to local, PAY ATTENTION to who is on scan near you. It's not rocket science. Welcome to eve. And I think I need to mention it again. Do to your nature of 'gaming', you might be more suited for WoW on a NON PVP server. I think that there, you could pretend to do take risks. ============================== lolol old sig had to go...this will have to do
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.12.09 01:30:00 - [20] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 09/12/2006 01:30:48 Sigh... You guys are sooo great. I like risk as long as its manageable. As long as I have means to influence it. I am careful and do everything right I live, I am careless or make a mistake I die. And I am sorry, but in a practical situation the things you describe simply DO NOT WORK anymore. Which is the whole point of these threads, they need to work again. Not that I expect the likes of you to see that, you just see the easy gank you were served and hold onto it with abandon, and at the same time blame us for holding onto the old ways with abandon too. If that isn't bias, what is? I just hope CCP is wise enough to find a good middle way. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Tatsue Niko Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2006.12.09 01:50:00 - [21] Edited by: Tatsue Niko on 09/12/2006 01:53:11 Edited by: Tatsue Niko on 09/12/2006 01:51:35 Leandro,now you're acting like a kid,There's alot you can do to influence it DO YOU ACTUALLY READ WHAT IM WRITING? Do a 5 degree scan on your entry acceleration gate,refresh it,if anyone's there,you know its a pirate. You can still do it if you're in the first room. (Deadspace) Job done,you can influence it. If its not DS,just align out and stay ready,and yes,I've done lvl 4s for ages,I even have an alt doing it in low sec right now,and i can tell you,i havent been scanned down yet. Name me which missions you cant,there's not many. If they're onto your ass,just call for some corpmates,stay at the first gate and have your friends standby close so they can warp to you,then kill the pirate. The more you see,The less you know
Landrethian	Posted - 2006.12.09 04:15:00 - [22] Edited by: Landrethian on 09/12/2006 04:16:28 /sigh .. pirates and pvpers ... they think everything is about them in Eve ... EVE was designed as a multifacted MMO, with the vast majority of those facets having ZERO to do with PVP. Mining, Trading, Manufacturing, Missions, all have zilch to do with PVP, so when exactly did PVP become the whole point of EVE? I'll say it again .. in low-sec, feel free to hunt the missioner down while on the way to the mission (sometimes several jumps) and on the way out of the mission and heading home with the loot. But the mission itself is designed BY CCP as a PVE experience and as such should not be subject to uninvited outside player intervention , NO MATTER what the sec status is of the system. The missioner is at your mercy to and from while flying through lowsec space, be content with that for heavens sake. edit: bah, stupid posting interface picked the wrong toon to post from before I noticed it
Ogdru Jahad Amarr	Posted - 2006.12.09 04:52:00 - [23] Originally by: lollerskates Originally by: Maera Dimitrios So, how is it fair that pirates can scan you in a DED-space pocket you had to get the mission to access and attack you there? It's not, it just gives pirates yet another advantage. Just because people are too ignorant to watch local for lowsec players with bounties or periodically refresh scanner for probes means it's overpowered? For years mission runners have been INVINCIBLE, scanning missions didn't work due to them being off plane with everything else, and most mission runners having instadocks. Now they all cry because suddenly they can die in LOW SEC. I have no sympathy for people who can't sense danger when there are signs of it for minutes before their demise, and all I can say is: WELCOME TO LOW SEC! YOU CAN DIE. THAT'S THE POINT OF IT. BULL ****! if you cant scan down mission runners maybe you should train your skills up much more. I have been in squad previous to Revalations where we have scanned down mission runners. not our fault if you cant scan people down. - Want to Npc/mine at same time in a rich part of eve? Join Voodoochildren for more details. ask for Ogdru.
Jenkins Claiborne	Posted - 2006.12.09 04:53:00 - [24] This is one of the more wasteful threads I've read, since there is already an announced change is coming. However, just for the sake of debate.... OK, DNA guys. Have it your way. Targets will (and have) dried up pretty much instantly because right now mission running in low-sec is certain death. Pirates have the element of surprise, the NPC rats, and the fact that mission setups are not any good for PvP on their side. It's not too hard to kill a guy in a guristas mission if you load up all your EM damage for shields, exp damage for armor and oh by the way, you know that he's doing kinetic damage and you have the NPC's dropping upwards of 300 dps on the guy as well. Matter of fact, it's probably pretty easy to drop a BS with a T1 frig given all this information. Given that, where is the risk-reward for you? Fly in with a 1 million isk ship and take down a billion isk BS setup. If you succeed one in one thousand times, you win. You will succeed way more than that. So, another pitiful excuse to take to the forums in hopes of keeping imbalance that favors you. Nice try, but it's already been ruled out. Have fun fighting fair.
Ogdru Jahad Amarr	Posted - 2006.12.09 04:58:00 - [25] I my self have run low sec missions from day one of lvl4 agents being released. ( not this chr ) I always kept an eye on local, in fact I felt safer in low sec than i did 0.0. why? because it taught me to be aware. and i have no carried that into 0.0 . when i ran missions 8 months ago. we found a wanna be pirate who was bumping ppl at the stn away so they could no dock. next day we saw him doing missions and decided to hunt the asswipe down. we SCANNED him down pre Revalations. then I warped and decided to give him a way out. 50m for a geddon. not only did he pay but he paid FAST! so an hour later we recanned him thinking he had good **** on him. but alass he had squat. guess thats the cost of hunting down a macro miner turned mission runner. ( he came from a well known macro corp ) my point is. mission runners have never been invincible. just pirates/pvpers didnt know how to play the game if they did not have the skills or know how to use mods to scan them down. - Want to Npc/mine at same time in a rich part of eve? Join Voodoochildren for more details. ask for Ogdru.
ScreamingLord Sutch Hand in Mouth	Posted - 2006.12.09 05:00:00 - [26] For the sake of debate 1) Most covert ops pilots are alts, out of known pirate corps with good sec status. A perusal of local will tell you nothing unless you have the info to match the alt to the main. 2) Observator probes generally drop you out of warp with 5k of a target. If the target is in deadspace this defaults to the deadspace gate. Since you can launch an observator probe from anywhere within a system, they will not show up on scanner. The observator as it stands a) Makes the scanner useless in the context alluded to here b) Pretty much negates the need for smaller probes (snoops, fathoms etc) and makes scanning out mission spots a no-brainer if you have trained up the required skills. Yes, mission runners need to be at risk. No, it's not currently balanced. Thank you!
Tribunal FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.09 05:14:00 - [27] Quote: balancing in system scanning of deadspace in agents/complexes (way too easy) In the patch notes, so shut the hell up about probing mission runners being balanced at the moment. "We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and applaud when they go by." - Will Rogers
DiuxDium The Graduates	Posted - 2006.12.09 05:25:00 - [28] Originally by: Tribunal Quote: balancing in system scanning of deadspace in agents/complexes (way too easy) In the patch notes, so shut the hell up about probing mission runners being balanced at the moment. Inb4 mass outcry by pirates on how their lives are ending, the world is ending, wow is eve, tuxford is a bastard, and his mother is a gerbil. Something about the Dev's selling out the SoE in there for good measure. Also. Kawk..Is in a bird..you know. Timeout! Party time.
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.12.09 13:41:00 - [29] Originally by: Tatsue Niko Leandro,now you're acting like a kid,There's alot you can do to influence it DO YOU ACTUALLY READ WHAT IM WRITING? Do a 5 degree scan on your entry acceleration gate,refresh it,if anyone's there,you know its a pirate. You can still do it if you're in the first room. (Deadspace) Job done,you can influence it. I don't think you are reading what I am writing. How much time do you have between detecting a pirate on your entry gate with the scanner and him appearing in your mission? 30 secs? And you seriously expect people to scan EVERY SECOND! to get a 30 sec warning? While at the same time fighting off the mission which often is not NEARLY as trivial as you want everyone to believe? Oh please. It IS possible to be safe still, but it totally destroys any semblance of fun or profit. The old system, where there was a guaranteed few minutes between the probes being launched and the pirate actually getting to the mission was fine. The new one is not. As for missions where you often (depending on location within the system) cannot be aligned and ready all the time: Any mission you do in a turret ship, and for missile ships Enemies abound 1, 3 and 4, Vengeance, Worlds Collide stage 2 and 3, Extravaganzas, Silence the Informant... Those are the first that come to mind, there are probaly more. Of course if the only mission you do is farming Infiltrated Outposts you won't know about that... --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Daimoness	Posted - 2006.12.09 13:42:00 - [30] Scanning mission spots should be as hard as it was before Kali. Yes, it was possible before, but it required skill and preparation on the side of the prospective ganker. Now every no-brainer that is looking for easy kills can do it, which makes the whole idea pointless. I'm just glad I have access to 0.0 - much safer to do missions there. This game is about balance. Right now the balance between risk and reward is broken in low-sec. If I was to do lvl-4-missions now, I'd just find myself a good high-sec area with no lowsec within 2 jumps and go for it. Ganking mission runners in low-sec is lame. It takes no skill and no power. Basically it's a sport for those that don't want to risk a real head-on with people skilled and fitted for PvP.
Mitram Grey Group	Posted - 2006.12.09 14:00:00 - [31] "Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated" seems to be a troll family. ;-p When I first read about the scanner probe changes in "game development" while it was still in test I mentioned that it will hurt mission runner hard. No one listened to me then. Before it was already quite easy to locate mission runners and kill them. Happened to me twice. Now its a joke. Lets say 30 seconds scan, a recon ship with 40km of warp scramble range and a gang of children with toys ... Missions in low-sec are a no-go right now. I haven't done missions lately. So are they now all in deadspace? If there are mission outside in low-sec the upcomming scanner changes on Wednesday will not full help.
Doppler Shift	Posted - 2006.12.09 14:39:00 - [32] Edited by: Doppler Shift on 09/12/2006 14:39:54 Heh... Fact1: Ratting has nothing in common with mission running. The letters P, v, and E are the sole common things. If anyone has a disagreement on that, I will hear their opinion right AFTER they have tried :a) ratting in a tech 1 pvp ship (I do that all the time), then b) Going through Worlds Collide lvl4 in a pvp ship (ROFLMAO HAHAHAHAHAHAHA). What does being scrambled by 2 frigates have in common with being scrambled by 7 interceptors and 5 assault frigs? Fact2: Ratting was ABSOLUTELY BALANCED to factor in the possibility of hostile player interference. Missions were not. Does the fact that a ship and a friggin fleet are different words with different meaning tell you something? If anyone believes it is the same thing to fight against a bs with 2 frig escorts, than fighting a a fleet of 8 BS, 15 cruisers, assorted frigs, scramblers and webbers, he is free to come pirating to my home system, se what his success is against a MEMBER of my corp then against the BULK of my corp. Fact3: In fact, I don't really give a damn, but I am afraid someone is missing the point. I do not think that the way missions are scanned should change - I believe that missions should be rebalanced to factor in the possibility of player interference. Low-sec missioners should by no means be invulnerable - but they should not be fed to the lions either...
madnight	Posted - 2006.12.09 23:20:00 - [33] notice how the only dips responding to this and argueing about it is dna? stand for all for themselfs low lofe scum that will see no point of view but there own becouse they still suckle on mommy.. sad are they not... ccp will change it then they will all cry so just ignore the little children
Zacha Nioto	Posted - 2006.12.10 00:23:00 - [34] This thread is generally just a big smack fest. From both sides of the fence. Can we just agree on the following two statements? 1) Running missions in low-sec shouldn't be risk-free. 2) Probing out a mission runner shouldn't be a one-click insta-win.
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.12.10 00:59:00 - [35] Heh... Enough of us runners agree with 1), but good luck getting the gankbears to agree with 2) --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Tribunal FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.10 01:00:00 - [36] Originally by: Zacha Nioto This thread is generally just a big smack fest. From both sides of the fence. Can we just agree on the following two statements? 1) Running missions in low-sec shouldn't be risk-free. 2) Probing out a mission runner shouldn't be a one-click insta-win. Running missions in low sec has NEVER been risk free. Everytime I come to this forum I feel the IQ being drained from my brain. "We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and applaud when they go by." - Will Rogers
Dragon Lord	Posted - 2006.12.10 01:17:00 - [37] hmm find a mission runner in 2 minutes in low sec = dead mission runner end off. it takes longer than 2 minutes to kill the elite scrammer frigs on alot of lvl4s, so how the hell do u warp if u see a pirate at a gate? oh and dont say wcs's u know they screw ur ship. I run high sec always have so couldnt care about low sec mission runners, but since low sec mission runners are proberbly a good sourse of imcome for u pirates if you can gank them and lets all agree its now very very easy to do. what are you pirates gonna hunt when they all leave for high sec? guess you will have to content ur selves with shooting roids
Lasati	Posted - 2006.12.10 03:06:00 - [38] Edited by: Lasati on 10/12/2006 03:07:11 The real problem is that PvP and Mission Running fittings are the complete opposite. The other problem is that on missions the NPCs can tackle you with everything a player can. You want to talk about risk... what's the risk to the PvPer? He probes, warps in, his target is already tanking 1/2 the room and possibly tackled. And his target's fittings are all for PvE. Even more, the PvPer knows exactly what the Mission Runner is going to fit, based on the damage type of the NPCs in the room. I like to be a problem solver, so here's my solution. When someone enters a room in a mission who is not ganged with anyone already in the room, each NPC within targeting range has a 50% chance of re-targetting the new guy that just showed up in the room. Or do PvPers not like risk?
Celestal	Posted - 2006.12.10 05:02:00 - [39] Lol this whole thread is about dna pretending to be pvp ers rather then just lo sec gate campers / killers of indies/freighters/shuttles/noobs , Why whine about miners in a mission forum ? lemme guess , when your skoda breaks down you whine to a bmw dealer in the hope it immpresses onlookers ?
ToyGirl	Posted - 2006.12.10 09:49:00 - [40] Quote: The whole POINT of EVE is PVP... Ye Gods, not another 1! Quote: Can we just agree on the following two statements? 1) Running missions in low-sec shouldn't be risk-free. 2) Probing out a mission runner shouldn't be a one-click insta-win Best posting in this thread.
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.10 19:48:00 - [41] Originally by: Daimoness Scanning mission spots should be as hard as it was before Kali. Yes, it was possible before, but it required skill and preparation on the side of the prospective ganker. Now every no-brainer that is looking for easy kills can do it, which makes the whole idea pointless. I'm just glad I have access to 0.0 - much safer to do missions there. This game is about balance. Right now the balance between risk and reward is broken in low-sec. If I was to do lvl-4-missions now, I'd just find myself a good high-sec area with no lowsec within 2 jumps and go for it. Ganking mission runners in low-sec is lame. It takes no skill and no power. Basically it's a sport for those that don't want to risk a real head-on with people skilled and fitted for PvP. I was going to post...but then I saw this and realised someone had said everything I wanted to say. The only way ganking mission runners could get any easier now is if we all made a bookmark to our mission and left it in a can at the gate for the pirates to find - oh, and then kept telling them in local where to find it...for the really, REALLY dumb ones... --- I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment until you've looked at them.
Arain	Posted - 2006.12.11 07:20:00 - [42] Its simple really as it stands now No one in thier right mind will run low sec missions. So the only mission runners the PvPers have to gank or those that have been away from the game for a while and come back not knowing things changed. So before long the big bad low sec pirates will have no one at all to go after. How does that benifit them. Not to mention the other down sides of the current system. Such as more people in secure space causeing lag, unhappy people who have had a major change in the game they pay to play, who might just say ....... this and go give thier money to some other company. And to all those that think the only reason this game exists is for PvP, get a clue, it would not be half the game it is now without the majority of players who pay thier fees to CCP and don't wish to get griefed. I really wish CCP would do a experiment just to educate some "experts" who know all about this game. Run a split server for 1 month. Put all the players who want nothing to do with PvP on one server, and the hardcore PvP full time players on the other and give the rest a choice of which one they wanted to play. On the PvP server eliminate secure space completely, so no place was safe for anyone. On the PvE server as the security level went down make the NPC mobs much more aggressive and numerous. With NPC gate camps and other things to make things interesting. Be curious to see how many people went to each server and stayed. Since the experiment would be limited to 1 month I doubt it would be the end of EVE as the PvP crowd has always said a split server would be, but it might give both the PvP crowd and the DEV's a differnt perspective on how thier average player feels about the state of PvP in the game.
Tammarr	Posted - 2006.12.11 12:08:00 - [43] Strange how ppl say noone will run missions in lowsec, I see plenty of players running alot of missions here, pirates snoop by now and then, then they leave most commonly. Oh, how is this possible!!!?? Well, we play the game as its supposed to be played, its an mmog, not a spog(it even sounds abit like spam and noone wants spam) so we have teamed up, corporations, allies etc. Sadly we dont bother about greedy no good mission runners whom only come to the area to fly missions safe under our protection without coming into gangs to chase the lowly pirate scum away, but I think we all agree that someone who only does missions for his wallet and dont spend any time or effort to defend his "agent space" is worth nothing, throw them to the pirates I say. The best part about all this would be that hopefully lowsec will soon be cleared of all the the spogers whom never had intent of playing togheter with others or try to stand up against pirates for their "right" to run missions in a system/constellation. So am I all for the quick probing? No not realy, its to fast to locate a missionrunner as it stands now, normal space its great with 80sec to probe someone out(yeah I know I dont have the best skills so 80 sec it is) Just make the use of bigger/lower sized probes usefull, no need to use a snoop when you can simply use a spook... thats all I'am asking, will take abit longer to probe down giving the missionrunner more then 2 minutes to note someone unknown/hostile in local is ample time I would say. If I failed to note a unknown in 0.0 or even lowsec and I'am mining/ratting the belts for two minutes I'd lost plenty of battleships. Oh that fancy time bonus? Well, perhaps working togheter with others to know if a pirate comes in, paying attentin and standing up for your space will let you finish your lowsec(aka you can get killed but receive more pay) missions on time and thus receive the bonus. Slap a pirate on the fingers today, slap him in the groin tomorrow and after that he wont come back.
Nahia Senne Fortunis Novum	Posted - 2006.12.11 14:03:00 - [44] so to sum it up: people who are against the new probing systems are selfish losers, cowards and generally clueless. people who have adapted to the changes and responded by playing as a team are the real stuff. when lvl4's get booted to lowsec, we may start having some fun. bears vs pirates on a larger scale, and losers who cant fend for themselves... well, they were a bunch of losers to begin with. Make ECCM viable! Give it 25% to scanning resolution!
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.12.11 14:41:00 - [45] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 11/12/2006 14:42:15 Originally by: Nahia Senne so to sum it up: people who are against the new probing systems are selfish losers, cowards and generally clueless. people who have adapted to the changes and responded by playing as a team are the real stuff. when lvl4's get booted to lowsec, we may start having some fun. bears vs pirates on a larger scale, and losers who cant fend for themselves... well, they were a bunch of losers to begin with. Or to sum it up: People who support the ultra-easy-mode probing are are selfish losers, cowards and generally clueless. People who have been probing out runners before Kali are the real stuff. If CCPs fix works, we may have our fun back, the real pirates will still be able to probe runners albeit not effortless anymore, and the gankbears who can only get off on attacking an easy target with next to no risk and the main purpose of causing others grief are back to gatecamping and suiciding, as befit for the bunch of losers they are. See, two sides to the same coin... --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Ghoest	Posted - 2006.12.11 15:39:00 - [46] @OP Your opinion doesnt matter. The fear that mission runner will quite paying and playing - that does matter. Wherever you went - here you are.
So'Kar Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.12.12 18:36:00 - [47] Edited by: So''Kar on 12/12/2006 18:38:43 Easy fix Put all lvl 3 missions to low sec Put all lvl 4 missions to 0.0 Then the current mission runners wont enjoy the luxury of having your station and gates bubbled by mobiles and dictors while getting probed out. Im sick of this high sec lvl 4 mission, essentially it removes a part of eve. Eve was not built so you can sit in a npc corp in high sec running lvl 4s 24/7 for 10 months straight, it is centered around pvp and corporations. The point of making isk is to buy better toys to kill more people, faster.
Exlegion Caldari Legion's Knight	Posted - 2006.12.12 18:46:00 - [48] Edited by: Exlegion on 12/12/2006 18:50:59 Edited by: Exlegion on 12/12/2006 18:48:36 Originally by: So'Kar Edited by: So''Kar on 12/12/2006 18:38:43 Easy fix Put all lvl 3 missions to low sec Put all lvl 4 missions to 0.0 Then the current mission runners wont enjoy the luxury of having your station and gates bubbled by mobiles and dictors while getting probed out. Im sick of this high sec lvl 4 mission, essentially it removes a part of eve. Eve was not built so you can sit in a npc corp in high sec running lvl 4s 24/7 for 10 months straight, it is centered around pvp and corporations. The point of making isk is to buy better toys to kill more people, faster. Easier fix: Why doesn't CCP just remove people like you from the game since people like you full with jealousy and childishness are making me sick God, you guys just never give up, heh. I ENJOY SPENDING MY ISK ON SHIPS JUST FOR THE HELL OF IT!!!! Why does THAT BOTHER YOU??? You like destroying shipS. I like pimping them out and taking them out for spins!!!!!!!! If that bothers you so much Why don't YOU leave the game?
Aralt Aran	Posted - 2006.12.12 19:06:00 - [49] Most guys i know only do missions to buy ships for pvp ,we don`t like mining. Since we can`t do that in low any more we gona do that in empire ,and since alot ships are getting year after year more expensive we need to do more missions for those t2 ships we even can`t ensure .Lets see ,hmm alot missions are nerfed also means ,i mean farming is over . And for use guys with 1 account ,think a good game you can play with 1 account ,it is they only thing in eve we can do to rais money with a fighter char.Wish there wher other things then missions ,like real bounty hunting on low standings guys.But seems the low standings guys are hunting use.
So'Kar Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.12.12 19:08:00 - [50] Edited by: So''Kar on 12/12/2006 19:09:54 Why would i be jealous, i make 10x what you make in empire running 0.0 missions. And if you dont believe me ask anyone who runs pirate faction missions and try to get them to reveal how much isk they really make. It will be rare to find such a person.
Berrik Radhok GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.12.12 19:57:00 - [51] Go back to 1.0 space, carebears. No one promised you a saftey blanket to let you do anything you wanted in peace. If I can run missions in 0.0 without dying, then you can run missions in low sec without dying. Mission with a proto cloak on and if hostiles appear, warp to a safespot, then cloak. Blam, you're safe. Or, warp to zero on the station insystem and instadock. Blam, you're safe again. This game is primarily about PVP, not PVE. The designers of this game were for the most part PKers in Ultima Online, which this game follows the philosophy of extensively. Originally by: Khavi Vetali Oh don't worry, the goons are just as suicidal with their battleships as they are with their frigates.
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.12 20:16:00 - [52] Originally by: So'Kar Eve was not built so you can sit in a npc corp in high sec running lvl 4s 24/7 for 10 months straight, it is centered around pvp and corporations. See, I was labouring under the misconception that CCP made EVE, not you. They wrote a game with agents in high sec that give out level 4's. Kind of implies that they intended for at least SOME people to run them. And to the last poster - mission running in 0.0 is a lot easier than mission running in low sec. It's simply about population density...you probably have a maximum of ten people in your 0.0 system...0.4's are pretty much all chokepoints and so have 10's or 100's of people in them...most of them pirates. So yeah...we could move to 0.0 and have things slightly easier. but some of us also like to experience OTHER aspects of this wonderful game, like trading and so on...and I've BEEN to 0.0, and there's precious little on the market...largely because there's one station about every 20 jumps. Just 'cos YOU don't want to do that, doesn't mean you can force everyone else not to...same as I wouldn't DREAM of forcing you to stay in high sec and run missions if you don't want to. In general, the strength of the carebear argument is greater than that of the pirate. The carebears are happy for anyone to play the way he or she chooses - and they accept that as a direct result of that, they MAY lose ships. The pirates don't want anyone to play the game in any way differnet to the way that THEY want to play it. I try to resist namecalling of pirates...but the one tag that is INESCAPABLE for them is "selfish". They want it their way, or no way at all. --- I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment until you've looked at them.
Berrik Radhok GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.12.12 20:26:00 - [53] As a previous poster said, no one's forcing you to run missions in low sec where you can be killed. There are lots of L4 agents in high sec. And, actually, you're wrong about 0.0 I run L4s in Poitot when I'm not off to the wars, and the local pirates are rather dense and also proactive about scanning people out there. Originally by: Khavi Vetali Oh don't worry, the goons are just as suicidal with their battleships as they are with their frigates.
Exlegion Caldari Legion's Knight	Posted - 2006.12.12 20:31:00 - [54] Edited by: Exlegion on 12/12/2006 20:32:11 Originally by: Berrik Radhok As a previous poster said, no one's forcing you to run missions in low sec where you can be killed. There are lots of L4 agents in high sec. I agree with you on that. Except that when you have idiots spouting: Quote: Easy fix Put all lvl 3 missions to low sec Put all lvl 4 missions to 0.0 Then the current mission runners wont enjoy the luxury of having your station and gates bubbled by mobiles and dictors while getting probed out. Im sick of this high sec lvl 4 mission, essentially it removes a part of eve. Eve was not built so you can sit in a npc corp in high sec running lvl 4s 24/7 for 10 months straight, it is centered around pvp and corporations. The point of making isk is to buy better toys to kill more people, faster. it kind of makes it difficult to even run missions in high sec. Comments like that, advocating the removal of all missions from high sec is simply just trolling.
So'Kar Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.12.13 18:29:00 - [55] Originally by: Exlegion Edited by: Exlegion on 12/12/2006 20:32:11 it kind of makes it difficult to even run missions in high sec. Comments like that, advocating the removal of all missions from high sec is simply just trolling. WTF did i say all missions? Additionally running missions in high sec and even low sec is much more time efficient than 0.0 You must move your modules, ships, bpos to deep 0.0 through many hostile gate camps. Then gather minerals and find factories to build ammo. If you lose your ship its another few hours traveling to empire, buy and fit then travel back down with all the added risks again. Simple said, the rewards of lvl 4s in high sec is far too great compared to the relative safety.
Exlegion Caldari Legion's Knight	Posted - 2006.12.13 18:44:00 - [56] Originally by: So'Kar WTF did i say all missions? Additionally running missions in high sec and even low sec is much more time efficient than 0.0 You're right. I should be thanking you for allowing the level 1's and 2's to stay in high sec.
Magnus Card Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.13 18:55:00 - [57] Originally by: So'Kar Edited by: So''Kar on 12/12/2006 19:09:54 Why would i be jealous, i make 10x what you make in empire running 0.0 missions. And if you dont believe me ask anyone who runs pirate faction missions and try to get them to reveal how much isk they really make. It will be rare to find such a person. Then why do you care so much about what other people do? If you make that much then why does it matter if some guy 50 jumps from you runs a mission and doesnÆt want to pvp? The truth is you want everyone to have your play style and are willing to force that upon them. Would you like it if the mission runners play style were forced upon you and you couldn't PvP? No you wouldn't. So stop with the BS and let people play the way they want.
Yasuki Orie Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.13 19:02:00 - [58] In what way is the reward for lvl 4 mission in high sec too high? I think that if anything it is too low.
So'Kar Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.12.13 20:33:00 - [59] come on post with your mains.
Guillame Herschel Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2006.12.13 20:55:00 - [60] I canna do it, Captain, the mains are offline! - Scotty -- Guile can always trump hardware --

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