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Varelse Wiggin Minmatar Fleet Of Elite	Posted - 2006.12.09 22:15:00 - [1] Edited by: Varelse Wiggin on 09/12/2006 22:15:56 Edited by: Varelse Wiggin on 09/12/2006 22:15:34 Why don't the Amarr have a kinetic lens? It makes plenty of perfectly good sense if you stop and take a look at the names of the some of thier weapons..."particle streams." Think of the PPC (Particle Projection Cannon), it fires a bolt of ionized particles, causing kinetic and thermal damage (impact + heat). I cba to make a full, in depth post about it, but I only think it makes sense for the Amarr to get a lens that allows them to do kinetic/thermic damage. -EDIT- WIKI SHALL DO THE HARD WORK FOR ME http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_beam
Christopher Dalran	Posted - 2006.12.09 22:18:00 - [2] Well tell me how you are going to convert pure energy into mass and i'll support that one.
pigofparadise Minmatar Wasted Reavers	Posted - 2006.12.09 22:19:00 - [3] Originally by: Christopher Dalran Well tell me how you are going to convert pure energy into mass and i'll support that one. E=mc^2 Remember physics?
Varelse Wiggin Minmatar Fleet Of Elite	Posted - 2006.12.09 22:19:00 - [4] Look at the wiki
Bobby 0gata	Posted - 2006.12.09 22:23:00 - [5] Its sounds ok for use on a planet but in 0g you'd probably find your 'uber pwnage' weapon was a very good propulsion system!
Arden Jacobs	Posted - 2006.12.09 22:31:00 - [6] Oh, come now, think about artillery cannons, that's a nice big thrust backwards whenever you fire...the inertial dampeners on the ship, as well as the ships propulsion system take care of that (or whatever pleases you).
Bobby 0gata	Posted - 2006.12.09 22:35:00 - [7] Artillery cannons use an explosive embedded in the charge to accelerate a projectile from the turret. The kinetic particle stream uses magnets to expel matter at the speed of light (give or take a few m/s). Which do you think generates more acceleration to the ship the weapon is fitted to....?
Montero Black Omega Security	Posted - 2006.12.09 22:35:00 - [8] A laser doing kinetic damage? uhm..yeah right. --------- Scrapheap Challenge
Varelse Wiggin Minmatar Fleet Of Elite	Posted - 2006.12.09 22:39:00 - [9] Originally by: Montero A laser doing kinetic damage? uhm..yeah right. LOL NOT LASER FAST MOVING PARTICLES K Please read the post and provided material before proceeding.
Okamoto	Posted - 2006.12.09 22:40:00 - [10] Originally by: Bobby 0gata The kinetic particle stream uses magnets to expel matter at the speed of light (give or take a few m/s). Isn't that, per definition, a rail gun? /Y
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.12.09 22:48:00 - [11] Edited by: Goumindong on 09/12/2006 22:49:21 Originally by: Christopher Dalran Well tell me how you are going to convert pure energy into mass and i'll support that one. Light has effective mass, so i dont really have to prove any sort of conversion, no conversion is nessesary. That is why Solar Sails work, and why you get a cororna effect from a Solar Eclipse[or any eclipse really]. Now it doesnt have much mass, but it does have mass. That is the paradox of light, it is both a particle [and has effective mass] and a wave[or neither if you want to describe it that way] Originally by: Okamoto Originally by: Bobby 0gata The kinetic particle stream uses magnets to expel matter at the speed of light (give or take a few m/s). Isn't that, per definition, a rail gun? /Y No, rail guns hurl metallic slugs very fast using magnets. Particle Accelerators work in roughly the same way, but arent "rail guns"
Montero Black Omega Security	Posted - 2006.12.09 22:52:00 - [12] Originally by: Varelse Wiggin Originally by: Montero A laser doing kinetic damage? uhm..yeah right. LOL NOT LASER FAST MOVING PARTICLES K Please read the post and provided material before proceeding. you really are a noob aren't you. --------- Scrapheap Challenge
Christopher Dalran	Posted - 2006.12.09 22:54:00 - [13] Originally by: pigofparadise Originally by: Christopher Dalran Well tell me how you are going to convert pure energy into mass and i'll support that one. E=mc^2 Remember physics? Thats the energy posessed by something moving at the speed of light (or alternativly the energy needed to accelerate something to the speed of light). Keep in mind that both matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed, only altered. You cannot create matter out of nothing nor can you destroy matter to create energy. You can however break bonds releasing the energy stored in them but this does not result in the destruction of the orrigional material, it only alters it. The lasers would function by charging the atoms inside the focusing crystals causing electrons to energize and move into a higher shell, the resulting drop from the excited state back down to ground state releases the energy in the form of EM radiation (x-ray, radio, gamma ect are just different wavelengths determined by what is being excited). If were going to start adding kinetic damage then you going to need some type of material to get caught in the escaping EM stream (cant think of how that would happen) meaning that lasers cannons would need to have ammo to expend with each shot.
Audemed Evisceration.	Posted - 2006.12.09 23:01:00 - [14] You mean like crystals that "degrade"? Hmm, sounds familliar...naw, amarr never have to buy new ammo unless their ship blows up, right?!
Dixon Caldari Hells Donkeys	Posted - 2006.12.09 23:05:00 - [15] nerds... - - - - - - Originally by: Ath Amon as long as there will be such umbalance there is no hope to make ships balanced...
Christopher Dalran	Posted - 2006.12.09 23:06:00 - [16] Originally by: Audemed You mean like crystals that "degrade"? Hmm, sounds familliar...naw, amarr never have to buy new ammo unless their ship blows up, right?! Your crystals are going to degrade because repeatedly ionizing the atoms over and over again will slowly cause some to alter untill the crystal nolonger functions as intended. If were going to be shooting mass out its going to be more along the lines of 1 charge per shot.
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.12.09 23:06:00 - [17] since this is a game. and we dont actually have to develop the weapons or prove their physics, devs could just spawn one and give it kinetic stats ( or explosive for that matter).... i dont see why not if you want to complain about RL inconsistencies in game, we can start w/ how my ship slows down just by turning off my mwd, and why i have a max speed. after that we can argue how unrealistic his request is though, i think ccp have a reason for amarr's lack of damage type options. though i'm at a loss for a link for ya, i'm pretty sure they have addressed the issue in the past
Roy Batty68	Posted - 2006.12.09 23:06:00 - [18] Originally by: Montero you really are a noob aren't you. And you're really just a troll. If you got some kind of 'veteran wisdom', please add it. Otherwise you're just spewing hot air. Not like your frikken post count matters. As to the "reality" of the suggestion, who cares? If someone wants to lay out for us the math and physics involved for a cloaking device or a worm hole jump gate, fine I'll buy the "not realistic" line. Until then, it's fictional content anyway. Originally by: Big Al Well, if there was a law against stupidity, the server would certainly lag less.
6Bagheera9 Shadows of the Dead Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.09 23:18:00 - [19] I'm an actual physics major and not to sound too elitist, but please do not try to back up your arguements with concepts you do not fully understand. The weapons in eve are all quite out of touch with RL and trying to make connections is ultimately futile. For example, the200mm Compressed Coilgun is listed as a named variant of the 200mm Railgun I. In RL this would be considered total nonsense as coilguns and railguns are two completely different types of mass drivers. Unless it tripled its budget and hired some dedicated physicists and engineers, CCP cannot hope to give EvE anything more than a fascade of realism. But this is a game, not a simulation. In a game the most important aspects are entertainment value, diversity, and balance. CCP does a great job on these three counts and I am grateful for that and so should you.
Miri Tirzan Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.10 00:59:00 - [20] Originally by: Bobby 0gata Artillery cannons use an explosive embedded in the charge to accelerate a projectile from the turret. The kinetic particle stream uses magnets to expel matter at the speed of light (give or take a few m/s). Which do you think generates more acceleration to the ship the weapon is fitted to....? Actually, I would expect that both would do the same or artillery more. Force = mass * velocity works the same for both. What I have to wonder is how a laser can produce EM damage. EM is electromagnetic. Both Masers and Lasers use coherent radiation (photons) impacting the target to do damage. Thermal damage is kinetic at the atomic level for lasers. What actually would be happening with a laser strike is that the kinetic energy is applied to the atoms of the target. They vibrated more which at the macro level shows as heat. If the amount of kinetic energy transferred is two high several unpleasant things happen to the target. First there are explosions as target material violently changes states from solid to gas or plasma. That is the most common source of an explosion, the violent expansion of a solid to a gas. Secondly there would be the macro level kinetic damage based on the density of the striking photon stream. Either way, a laser cannot do EM damage, ever, but will do thermal, explosive and kinetic. Since CCP is not basing Eve on reality, fine, in some magic way lasers do EM damage, but I sure get tired of people that are clueless on physics saying lasers cannot do explosive or kinetic. svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.12.10 01:02:00 - [21] Originally by: Okamoto Originally by: Bobby 0gata The kinetic particle stream uses magnets to expel matter at the speed of light (give or take a few m/s). Isn't that, per definition, a rail gun? /Y Roughly, yes. I'm interested to know how you focus a stream of matter through a lens though. Solids going through solids... Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Rehmes	Posted - 2006.12.10 01:15:00 - [22] Edited by: Rehmes on 10/12/2006 01:15:41 Edited by: Rehmes on 10/12/2006 01:15:32 Ummm... why not simply increasing base them damage on all crystals? Doing kinetic dmg w lasers seems way out there for me....even for EvE and all its inconsitency w RL i rather like the weapon designs as they are, just give Lasers a higher therm base dmg. EDIT: and if anyone even suggests making explosive crystals ill hunt u down....
Agnar Koladrov Gallente Hurricane Corporation	Posted - 2006.12.10 01:24:00 - [23] Originally by: Miri Tirzan <snip> Either way, a laser cannot do EM damage, ever, but will do thermal, explosive and kinetic. Since CCP is not basing Eve on reality, fine, in some magic way lasers do EM damage, but I sure get tired of people that are clueless on physics saying lasers cannot do explosive or kinetic. So what you are saying is: laser does heat dmg so rapidly it could 'instantly' change the state of target material to become gaseous, thus giving an explosion? Right? But arent those explosions only byproducts of the initial chainreaction cause by the massive heat damage? So the 'first' primairy damage source is heat with explosions/explosive decompression being logical second? ________________________________________________ What a Revelation!
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.12.10 01:30:00 - [24] Originally by: Miri Tirzan Force = mass * velocity dont go making the kiddies fail their physics tests tommorow... Force = mass * acceleration , not velocity its the difference between m/s (velocity) and m/(s^2) (acceleration) not that that has anything to do w/ anything..... we still talking physics regarding pretend world
Benglada Finite Horizon The Red Skull	Posted - 2006.12.10 01:33:00 - [25] Edited by: Benglada on 10/12/2006 01:33:30 Because it would be un balancing Balance > Logic. edit: and a laser i believe does produce kinetic energy, but due to the fact light has such an insanely small mass, it really makes no difference at all. --------------------------- Originally by: Arkanor 0.0 is the Final Frontier. Bring money and friends.
6Bagheera9 Shadows of the Dead Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.10 01:36:00 - [26] Originally by: Rehmes Edited by: Rehmes on 10/12/2006 01:15:41 Edited by: Rehmes on 10/12/2006 01:15:32 Ummm... why not simply increasing base them damage on all crystals? Doing kinetic dmg w lasers seems way out there for me....even for EvE and all its inconsitency w RL i rather like the weapon designs as they are, just give Lasers a higher therm base dmg. EDIT: and if anyone even suggests making explosive crystals ill hunt u down.... Kinetic damage from lasers is BS(and I don't mean battleships), just look at the effective momentum of a photon. RL lasers will do thermal and explosive 'damage' by virtue (respectively) of the general excitation of the target's atoms and phase changes from sufficient heating. I'm taking EM 'damage' to be the inducment of an electrical current. A laser can do this under the right circumstances, but its highly dependent on the target material. This would explain armor's naturally high resistance to EM 'damage'. And if shields were a shell of charged particles, a laser could easily generate a current and damage the shield generator. In terms of balance, I think a change in the proportion of EM/Thermal damage may be needed for lasers. Giving lasers a small bit of explosive damage might also accomplish this and maybe add a bit of realism to EvE's lasers.
Mudkest	Posted - 2006.12.10 01:49:00 - [27] Originally by: HankMurphy if you want to complain about RL inconsistencies in game, we can start w/ how my ship slows down just by turning off my mwd, and why i have a max speed. after that we can argue how unrealistic his request is mwd doesnt add more thrust, it does something with warpspace to make your ship mvoe faster, turn mwd off and you turn off the interaction with warpspace hence you go slower 8) AB yes, that shouldnt slow you down when turning off :) max speed, the clsoer you get to lightspeed the more energy it takes to acelerate closer to it, at the point of where you need so much energy it takes more energy then there's available in the universe. though this point it not at a few measly km/s, but more like 99.999999% of lightspeed 8) - When talking about the itsy bitsy spider, try not to start with itchy, you'll get the second part wrong as well
Mudkest	Posted - 2006.12.10 02:15:00 - [28] Originally by: Miri Tirzan Actually, I would expect that both would do the same or artillery more. Force = mass * velocity works the same for both. lets try this with logic(it's late though so might miss some points here but let me try anyway :p) the point of a particle accelerated cannon is to deliver kinetic and thermal damage right? why go trough the trouble of making a highly complesx particle cannon to deliver kinetic and thermal damage when you allready have a simple device(artillery) and more complex(rail gun) to do this. because you want to do mroe damage right? so to do more kinetic/thermal damage you need to give the particles a bigger momentum. if you apply the same force on a lighter mass will give it higher acceleration and speed, but momentum will be the same, and damage as result will be the same as wel. so you apply more force to it to give it bigger momentum, and as a result get bigger recoil on gun.(I'm pretty sure I am missing some steps here, but cant figure out what :s) so pac's probably hae a bigger kickback then then artillery, making hem slow ships down more 8) - When talking about the itsy bitsy spider, try not to start with itchy, you'll get the second part wrong as well
Almarez	Posted - 2006.12.10 02:36:00 - [29] Originally by: Christopher Dalran Well tell me how you are going to convert pure energy into mass and i'll support that one. Here is an idea I keep throwing out. A black crystal that turns dark matter into a kineticly damaging particle stream.
theRaptor Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.12.10 02:43:00 - [30] Originally by: Agnar Koladrov Originally by: Miri Tirzan <snip> Either way, a laser cannot do EM damage, ever, but will do thermal, explosive and kinetic. Since CCP is not basing Eve on reality, fine, in some magic way lasers do EM damage, but I sure get tired of people that are clueless on physics saying lasers cannot do explosive or kinetic. So what you are saying is: laser does heat dmg so rapidly it could 'instantly' change the state of target material to become gaseous, thus giving an explosion? Right? But arent those explosions only byproducts of the initial chainreaction cause by the massive heat damage? So the 'first' primairy damage source is heat with explosions/explosive decompression being logical second? And any explosion only causes damage through heat and kinetic damage (either fragments or the blast wave). So having explosive be a different damage type to thermal and kinetic makes no sense. Even a kinetic missile IRL will cause its damage by generating thermal energy when it collides with the target. A proper KKV (kinetic kill vehicle) will turn most of its mass into plasma upon impact. But the game would be boring with two damage types, so they created a bunch of unrealistic ones so that it would be more fun. I don't think you trust, in, my, self-righteous suicide.

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