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Tuxford - When will the Amarr get their lovin'?

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kessah Caldari Veto.	Posted - 2006.12.11 12:23:00 - [31] Edited by: kessah on 11/12/2006 12:23:34 imho i think amarr are completly fine as they are. I use them there dmg is still extreme. I take it the whine is about eanm t2's? well like with sheild tanking explosive is high on shield tankers such as raven, maelstrom, tempest sumtimes with invunerabilities t2. considering there are more ravens out there than any other battleships i consider this a rather nice coinsidence. 80% resistances to em still isnt enuf to tank the damage they put out tbh depending on the ships class ofc The ROF of lasers is imense try not to take the hits you get at face value look at your rof you'll soon see your doing more dmg than you think. -------------------------------------------------------- Forever Pirate 2
Dixon Caldari Hells Donkeys	Posted - 2006.12.11 12:27:00 - [32] Originally by: kessah Edited by: kessah on 11/12/2006 12:23:34 imho i think amarr are completly fine as they are. I use them there dmg is still extreme. I take it the whine is about eanm t2's? well like with sheild tanking explosive is high on shield tankers such as raven, maelstrom, tempest sumtimes with invunerabilities t2. considering there are more ravens out there than any other battleships i consider this a rather nice coinsidence. 80% resistances to em still isnt enuf to tank the damage they put out tbh depending on the ships class ofc The ROF of lasers is imense try not to take the hits you get at face value look at your rof you'll soon see your doing more dmg than you think. The problem is that those ravens tend to either run missions or have brains enough to fit a EM hardener. Also, as stated countless times, projectiles CAN change damage types - lasers are limited to EM/thermal. - - - - - - Originally by: Ath Amon as long as there will be such umbalance there is no hope to make ships balanced...
Exiled One Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.12.11 12:28:00 - [33] Originally by: Dixon Originally by: kessah Edited by: kessah on 11/12/2006 12:23:34 imho i think amarr are completly fine as they are. I use them there dmg is still extreme. I take it the whine is about eanm t2's? well like with sheild tanking explosive is high on shield tankers such as raven, maelstrom, tempest sumtimes with invunerabilities t2. considering there are more ravens out there than any other battleships i consider this a rather nice coinsidence. 80% resistances to em still isnt enuf to tank the damage they put out tbh depending on the ships class ofc The ROF of lasers is imense try not to take the hits you get at face value look at your rof you'll soon see your doing more dmg than you think. The problem is that those ravens tend to either run missions or have brains enough to fit a EM hardener. Also, as stated countless times, projectiles CAN change damage types - lasers are limited to EM/thermal. That's because kessah had no idea what he was talking about. It's not like projectiles have EMP, PP, now isn't it? It's great being Amarr, aint it?
Wizzkidy	Posted - 2006.12.11 13:55:00 - [34] Originally by: Exiled One Originally by: Dixon Originally by: kessah Edited by: kessah on 11/12/2006 12:23:34 imho i think amarr are completly fine as they are. I use them there dmg is still extreme. I take it the whine is about eanm t2's? well like with sheild tanking explosive is high on shield tankers such as raven, maelstrom, tempest sumtimes with invunerabilities t2. considering there are more ravens out there than any other battleships i consider this a rather nice coinsidence. 80% resistances to em still isnt enuf to tank the damage they put out tbh depending on the ships class ofc The ROF of lasers is imense try not to take the hits you get at face value look at your rof you'll soon see your doing more dmg than you think. The problem is that those ravens tend to either run missions or have brains enough to fit a EM hardener. Also, as stated countless times, projectiles CAN change damage types - lasers are limited to EM/thermal. That's because kessah had no idea what he was talking about. It's not like projectiles have EMP, PP, now isn't it? It's true, no one can seem to understand that Projectiles can CHANGE dmg type! Laser users can not. This is a huge differance, and no damn raven goes out without at least 1 EM hardner come on people! jesus.
Jacob Holland Gallente FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.11 18:22:00 - [35] Originally by: Dixon EANMs are a big issue. Just think about someone with a non-specific fitting like 2x eanms and a DC - that non-specific fitting still counters amarr pretty well. It may make things more difficult for Lasers but it doesn't make the ship invulnerable to them. It also leaves a huge resistance hole to Explosive and a significant one to Kinetic, which makes things much easier for Projectiles, Rails and Blasters and Missiles. A more broad spectrum tank of three active hardeners (relying on the native EM resist) makes Railguns and Blasters significantly less effective (and significantly less effective than Lasers for that matter), should we give Rails EM damage or nerf Active Hardeners? Or perhaps we could make all resistances the same so that only raw DPS really mattered? Making the choice to use two EANMIIs means sacrifices in some areas for strengths in others, if it is specifically focussed against Amarrian ships then that suggests that they're effective enough to be worried about - the same bias against Explosive damage is present in the dual Invulnerability II and Damage Control shield tank. /emote puts on asbestos suit. -- Originally by: cordy Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
Blabba Blubba	Posted - 2006.12.11 18:32:00 - [36] Gallente only get 2 damage types so don't try and use that argument. (Kin/Therm)
Siakel	Posted - 2006.12.11 18:35:00 - [37] Originally by: Blabba Blubba Gallente only get 2 damage types so don't try and use that argument. (Kin/Therm) And aside from the fact that both of Gallente's damage types are fine, we certainly know that Gallente ships tend to get small or no drone bays, so they can't possibly have any alternate form of damage except their turrets, yeah?
Aeaus Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.12.11 18:39:00 - [38] Originally by: Siakel Originally by: Blabba Blubba Gallente only get 2 damage types so don't try and use that argument. (Kin/Therm) And aside from the fact that both of Gallente's damage types are fine, we certainly know that Gallente ships tend to get small or no drone bays, so they can't possibly have any alternate form of damage except their turrets, yeah? Yea, show me one (non-Tech II) ship that has nber high native Kinetic or Thermic resists? But all Amarr Tanks have at least 60% EM resistance, and combine that with 80% of combat setups being omni tanks on armor and well, Amarr damage just plain sucks.
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2006.12.11 18:53:00 - [39] Edited by: Vincent Almasy on 11/12/2006 18:57:18 am I missing something here? 2xEANM II + 1x DCU II will just about 50% all damages and not just EM? those units don't need looking into laser damage mod needs to be boosted by 30% to be worth the cap and to be fair to the damage realm
Deathbarrage	Posted - 2006.12.11 18:54:00 - [40] before people start to say minmatar suck and amarr rule, let's not forget tournament is consensual combat whereas in normal pvp it's usually hit and run kind of stuff, which is what minmatar are great at and gallente, and amarr suck at consensual combat amarr might be good at, you know you just have to **** em up, but real roaming pvp is a whole different story
Brother Tycho Amarr	Posted - 2006.12.11 18:57:00 - [41] Originally by: Deathbarrage before people start to say minmatar suck and amarr rule, let's not forget tournament is consensual combat whereas in normal pvp it's usually hit and run kind of stuff, which is what minmatar are great at and gallente, and amarr suck at consensual combat amarr might be good at, you know you just have to **** em up, but real roaming pvp is a whole different story Good piont in the torny the Amarr ships had there mid slots free to play with and as far as i could tell all the Amarr BSs used remote reps and Nos not as laser platforms bar the odd Absolution that got in on the action.
El Ponja Amarr	Posted - 2006.12.11 19:07:00 - [42] Tux, I havenÆt given up hope yet It would be nice to hear something about the "oomph" you mentioned _____________ Amarr KhanidMKII
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.11 19:14:00 - [43] Edited by: Aramendel on 11/12/2006 19:17:34 Originally by: Jacob Holland the same bias against Explosive damage is present in the dual Invulnerability II and Damage Control shield tank. The problem here is that a) minmatar can switch their damage type. At the cost of lower base dps, yes, but the effective dps is still higher than anything you would get from t2 ammo. b) we have considerably less shieldtankers than armortankers ingame. And this isn't because armortanks are more viaable in PvP (although it makes the problem more pronounced) but from the basic shipdistribution. There we have about 2 armortankers for every shieldtanker. Due to this exp damage has no disadvantage, but an advantage. Yes, it sucks against shields. But for every shieldtanker it meets it meets at least 2 armortankers. The average dps vs all 3 targets is higher than for other damagetypes. Also, regarding 2 EAN2+dc vs 3 active harderner setups: You are ignoring the hull resists there. Due to those the 2 EAN2 + DC setup is even vs exp damage better than the 3 active setup. The added hull resists give it more effective HP.
Byzan Zwyth Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.11 19:27:00 - [44] Originally by: kessah Edited by: kessah on 11/12/2006 12:23:34 imho i think amarr are completly fine as they are. I use them there dmg is still extreme. I take it the whine is about eanm t2's? well like with sheild tanking explosive is high on shield tankers such as raven, maelstrom, tempest sumtimes with invunerabilities t2. cant believe people still compare amarr lasers vs EANM 2 to expl damage VS shields... think about it, any race that does expl damage CAN CHOOSE ANOTHER DAMAGE TYPE amarr cant that is why this is a problem for amarr and AMARR ONLY ---------------------- I fly Amarr and Gallente ships Amarr because they peow peow - and look cool... Gallente because they are effective
xenorx 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.12.11 20:33:00 - [45] Originally by: Vincent Almasy Edited by: Vincent Almasy on 11/12/2006 18:57:18 am I missing something here? 2xEANM II + 1x DCU II will just about 50% all damages and not just EM? Yes it boosts all resistances. That typical set up you post there will effectivly give every race 80+% resistance to EM damage. Unless they are Minmitar which will be higher. No one can hear you scream in space, so just shut up and die already.
Nicocat Caldari New Age Solutions	Posted - 2006.12.11 20:43:00 - [46] If you boost laser damage, that makes them ridiculously powerful versus shield tanks and normally-powered against armor tanks. Not all of us fit armor tanks. (I do, but that's cause a shield tank on a Phoon is silly) ---------------------------- Originally by: Splagada SEED ME DADDY WTB: Friggin' portrait
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2006.12.11 20:55:00 - [47] Originally by: Nicocat If you boost laser damage, that makes them ridiculously powerful versus shield tanks and normally-powered against armor tanks. Not all of us fit armor tanks. (I do, but that's cause a shield tank on a Phoon is silly) The increasement is put it inline with minmatar EX damage to armor which is 10% so not making it over powered, and if your don't fit some kind of defence then your allready messed over by em damage so complaint not valid. And EAMN is not a problem really because it changed from 60 to 80 while the others halved aswell so it's all even.
Almarez	Posted - 2006.12.11 22:40:00 - [48] Okay, What part of "EM damage sucks atm" don't people understand. Name me a PVP shield tanker that doesn't have EM hardeners, that would just be plain stupid. Once you get past the shield tank, just about all ships have very high built in EM resists, so it's like you're fighting a passive tank. On the armor tanking side, it's almost fully tanked for you without any more mods. Combine these things with cap issues and you have a recipe for a ship that falls short damn near all of the time. Seriously guys, I am by far not the best PVP'er but I have over 30 mil sp with over 6 mil in gunnery (laser specialized) and I've been screwed by pilots with much lesser skills that happened to have a couple of NOS and a slight tank.
Almarez	Posted - 2006.12.11 22:43:00 - [49] Originally by: kessah Edited by: kessah on 11/12/2006 12:23:34 imho i think amarr are completly fine as they are. I use them there dmg is still extreme. I take it the whine is about eanm t2's? well like with sheild tanking explosive is high on shield tankers such as raven, maelstrom, tempest sumtimes with invunerabilities t2. considering there are more ravens out there than any other battleships i consider this a rather nice coinsidence. 80% resistances to em still isnt enuf to tank the damage they put out tbh depending on the ships class ofc The ROF of lasers is imense try not to take the hits you get at face value look at your rof you'll soon see your doing more dmg than you think. First off damage means nothing in the face of high resists (80% is not a nerf?!?), plain and simple. Second even with decent damage, a fight cannot be sustained (especially with HP boost) with the high cap usage of lasers. Third, and this is a biggie, ROF on Amarr ships hurts more than it helps, trust me. Cause when you run out of cap your ROF goes to ZERO.
gu o Amarr	Posted - 2006.12.11 23:16:00 - [50] Amarr rock... Before people laught they do, at least I am a fan. I mean cmon man big tank heavy guns, can it get better? Granted right now they are the under dogs but thats ok. Ill keep on skilling with them because I like their ships. But for pvp atm I am skilling for a myrmidon, that thing owns. People Amarr will one day get back ontop of the kill boards, just atm they are kinda a poor choice for most engagements. spare the lone raven ratting without an em hardener, he just drops like a stone from a plane. Keep thoes geddons primed and ready to roll, you will see them out in force the day we get our long awaited boost. Untill then I will be training my myrmidon and drones out the rear... support your local Amarrian cause one day he will be smashing on everyone like everyone else does him...
Nocturnal Prince Tech 2 Holdings Limited	Posted - 2006.12.11 23:21:00 - [51] Amarr ships dont need anymore love, at least not the kinda love the Impoc and Avatar have got over the last few days. What? dont think that was love? Looked like they both got shafted good from where I was sitting... On a more serious note I cant wait for an amarr boost, I want to fly my golden ships with LASERS dammit. I want to stop borrowing my slaves guns. .
NeoGeist	Posted - 2006.12.12 04:49:00 - [52] Edited by: NeoGeist on 12/12/2006 04:50:20 I'm starting to really enjoy most of the (not all) amarrian pilots' logic on EM damage. Basically the logic is this: (paraphrase) " EM damage sucks because everyone tanks against EM." Now what most amarrian pilots say is that since everyone tanks against EM, then EM damage sucks. However, have they ever thought WHY people tank against EM? I mean, if EM damage sucked so much, why would people tank against it? Wouldn't it be stupid for a shield tanker to tank against EM damage since EM damage is worthless? Let's see why people tank against EM; lasers do the most dps in the game, so people want to tank against the main damage type, EM damage. If they didn't, they'd get pwned hard if they ever encountered any laser boat. However, there is a drawback to tanking against EM; if they do infact tank against EM, they leave themselves open to other types of guns/ships. Hybrid weaponry would rip them apart as well as projectiles, but if they tank against Hybrid weaponry, they leave themselves open to lasers. It's a gamble that most shield tankers face. It's not the fact that lasers are "gimped", it's more of the fact that people found a way to counter lasers. Most amarrian pilots complaining about this just haven't, or are unwilling to find a way to counter this counter, but I've fought against many amarr pilots who have, and beat the living crap out of me. Finally, armor tankers shouldn't have to do a retardely hard tank against EM damage to begin with. Before some of the laser nerfs, almost all armor tankers feared armageddons and no matter what, the geddons would probably come out on top. Unless you had a ship SPECIFICALLY fitted to deal w/ a geddon, you'd lose. But if you did this, you'd lose to everyother ship, which did not make much sense for an armor tanked ship. I dont' think that lasers need any buffing, I just think that amarr need a good secondary weapon. Examples would be: Caldari: Missiles and Hybrids Minmatar: Projectiles(which are pretty versatile already) and Missiles/Drones Gallente: Hybrids and Drones Amarr: Lasers and ..... NOS??? Although NOS is AWESOME, I would like to see more ships be able to use NOS more effectively than just their recon ships (<3 curse and Pilgrim). I think NOS would fit the amarr style better than drones or missiles as a secondary weapon. Edited for some typos
Shardrael Caldari AWE Corporation Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.12 05:17:00 - [53] I am amazed you guys are still going on this, tuxford has already stated that he doesnt believe there is anything wrong with amarr fundamentally and thought a few tweaking or modules like eanm's was all that was needed, you can keep wasting your breath but at the end of the day he is gonna go along with what he sees as the problem if he even sees one and will completely skip over threads like this... and yes I do fly amarr BS as my fleet ship of choice. Originally by: Pinky Denmark Caldari have other options like using rails or train for other ships/weapons...
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.12.12 06:02:00 - [54] Neo, blasters do the most DPS in the game. The problem with laser pre-nerf was that DPS on all ships was so high that closing with your target became an impossible scenario. Hence range in the short range context was important[pulse lasers also had more range]. Armageddons didnt actualy outdamage everything[and if they did, it didnt matter, relative damage wasnt the issue]. The stacking nerf and HP boost changed moved the dynamic from long range gank, to short range gank. Also, no one specifically tanks EM, Lasers used to do more damage because the lack of EAN's had everyone tri-hardening instead, not because laser damage was so incredible. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Seishomaru	Posted - 2006.12.12 09:42:00 - [55] Of course if you face a minmatar ship with a EM hardener and Thermal hardener.. amarian ships will be ******. But so will a minmatar ship using T2 ammo upon a caldari shield tanker. Its all a tradeoff. Now in revelations the shiled tanking should rise abit. That will help a bit this situation. Something that could be done is.. nerf NOS in 25% and give amartian shgips a NOS bonus of 5% per level replacing the reduced laser cap. This would give them their second weapon while containing the NOSFEST.
Kagura Nikon	Posted - 2006.12.12 09:43:00 - [56] Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: Jim McGregor Heh, tournament.... did anyone saw a minmatar ship being impressive in it? Didnt think so. Did you see any rook? I tought so. but we saw a lot of ravens.... navy caracals.. etc...
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.12 10:29:00 - [57] Originally by: Kagura Nikon but we saw a lot of ravens.... navy caracals.. etc... His point is that while the rokh is any excellent ship it just wasn't good for the conditions in the tourney. And therefore not used. Not being used in the tourney != bad/underpowered
Deep Throat	Posted - 2006.12.12 11:24:00 - [58] Originally by: Shardrael I am amazed you guys are still going on this, tuxford has already stated that he doesnt believe there is anything wrong with amarr fundamentally and thought a few tweaking or modules like eanm's was all that was needed, you can keep wasting your breath but at the end of the day he is gonna go along with what he sees as the problem if he even sees one and will completely skip over threads like this... and yes I do fly amarr BS as my fleet ship of choice. Then u should understand, we are trying as hard as we can to get that ***** fired for discrimination and utterly bad understanding of the concept "Balance" The problems are evident to all those involved, cept him. wonder why that is.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.12.12 11:38:00 - [59] Originally by: Deep Throat Originally by: Shardrael I am amazed you guys are still going on this, tuxford has already stated that he doesnt believe there is anything wrong with amarr fundamentally and thought a few tweaking or modules like eanm's was all that was needed, you can keep wasting your breath but at the end of the day he is gonna go along with what he sees as the problem if he even sees one and will completely skip over threads like this... and yes I do fly amarr BS as my fleet ship of choice. Then u should understand, we are trying as hard as we can to get that ***** fired for discrimination and utterly bad understanding of the concept "Balance" The problems are evident to all those involved, cept him. wonder why that is. Tuxford is not an idiot, Amarr is not a "racial group"[I.E. discrimination against Amarrans is specifically allowed by the EULA you dirty non-believing heretic], fixing the Amarr problem is not as simple as it seems and I think Tuxford understands that. Part of the problem could be fixed by removing EANM's, but eanm's cant effectivly be revmoved from the game at this point. At least, i do not believe they can be easily. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard	Posted - 2006.12.12 11:40:00 - [60] The only problem with amarr, is cap use. All amarr ships (if fitted with lasers) use insane amounts of cap. And if the enemy has just 1 or 2 noss's, it will kill an amarr ship in no time or seriously hamper it to the point where the pilot has to choose between running tank or guns. On the other hand, an Apoc with 800mm AC's, 3 noss's and 4 cap recharger 2's can sustain a lot. So, remove nos and Amarr ships can finally use lasers and a tank.

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